Gone midnight, too. 24 stories, Notting Hill and it is not a place I'd want to have been asleep in.
Fire engulfs Grenfell tower block in west London - BBC News
I worked for a while on the CBS Records site not far round the corner from there, a long time ago. Not an elegant part of town.
That's a huge fire
That's a huge fire
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
That's a huge fire
Whatever went wrong with that building, there should be a public enquiry. No building should be able to do that. It would have been a disgrace in some tinpot South American banana republic, London is supposed to have better standards.
If the number killed is less than a hundred I'll be astonished.
The links from Grenfell Tower fire catastrophe are relevant. Three months ago that extensive blog said
The Grenfell Action Group has a long history of raising concerns about the almost criminally lax manner in which the KCTMO treats fire safety issues and we are on record as stating that it is our belief that a serious and catastrophic incident will be the undoing of this mini mafia who pose as a bona fide organisation responsible for the smooth running of the RBKC’S social housing.
If the number killed is less than a hundred I'll be astonished.
The links from Grenfell Tower fire catastrophe are relevant. Three months ago that extensive blog said
The Grenfell Action Group has a long history of raising concerns about the almost criminally lax manner in which the KCTMO treats fire safety issues and we are on record as stating that it is our belief that a serious and catastrophic incident will be the undoing of this mini mafia who pose as a bona fide organisation responsible for the smooth running of the RBKC’S social housing.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
That's a huge fire
When I saw the way the fire had taken hold, I thought how?
There has to be criminal neglect involved, it is shocking to think so many people were living in a high rise without a functioning sprinkler system working.
There has to be criminal neglect involved, it is shocking to think so many people were living in a high rise without a functioning sprinkler system working.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
That's a huge fire
You'd think the contractors cannot possibly have used an inflammable cladding when they refurbished last year. On the other hand the outside looked like a torch soaked in paraffin by the time the BBC was filming it.
I have found an article. It describes US safety practice with examples of how lesser nations fail, with photos.In other countries, particularly in developing countries where the emphasis has been on
maximum economic growth and development, building code requirements related to fire safety
are notably weaker. For construction of exterior building walls, many jurisdictions have very few
fire safety restrictions at all, allowing designers and materials suppliers to dictate the
construction materials and assembly methods for exterior building walls. Such countries have
provided, and continue to provide, loss lessons for what can happen when combustible materials
in exterior non-load bearing wall assemblies are not limited to proven, fire-tested assemblies.
Building Exterior Wall Assembly Flammability: Have We Forgotten the Past 40 Years?
The need for a working sprinkler system in those circumstances is emphasized several times. On the other hand the live newsfeed at the Guardian notes the following from "Michael Paramasivan, 37, a builder":11:25: [...] Paramasivan said the material on the outside of the building went up in flames rapidly. “It just went up like that,†he said, gesturing wildly. “There’s no fire alarms in the corridors, no sprinklers, nothing. There’s only smoke detectors in the flat and they didn’t go off.â€
The contractor, Rydon, put out a statement on their website which ends:Rydon completed a refurbishment of the building in the summer of 2016 for KCTMO (Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation) on behalf of the Council, which met all required building control, fire regulation and health & safety standards. We will cooperate with the relevant authorities and emergency services and fully support their enquiries into the causes of this fire at the appropriate time.
Given the ongoing nature of the incident and the tragic events overnight, it would be inappropriate for us to speculate or comment further at this stage.
http://www.rydon.co.uk/news/grenfell-tower
I have found an article. It describes US safety practice with examples of how lesser nations fail, with photos.In other countries, particularly in developing countries where the emphasis has been on
maximum economic growth and development, building code requirements related to fire safety
are notably weaker. For construction of exterior building walls, many jurisdictions have very few
fire safety restrictions at all, allowing designers and materials suppliers to dictate the
construction materials and assembly methods for exterior building walls. Such countries have
provided, and continue to provide, loss lessons for what can happen when combustible materials
in exterior non-load bearing wall assemblies are not limited to proven, fire-tested assemblies.
Building Exterior Wall Assembly Flammability: Have We Forgotten the Past 40 Years?
The need for a working sprinkler system in those circumstances is emphasized several times. On the other hand the live newsfeed at the Guardian notes the following from "Michael Paramasivan, 37, a builder":11:25: [...] Paramasivan said the material on the outside of the building went up in flames rapidly. “It just went up like that,†he said, gesturing wildly. “There’s no fire alarms in the corridors, no sprinklers, nothing. There’s only smoke detectors in the flat and they didn’t go off.â€
The contractor, Rydon, put out a statement on their website which ends:Rydon completed a refurbishment of the building in the summer of 2016 for KCTMO (Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation) on behalf of the Council, which met all required building control, fire regulation and health & safety standards. We will cooperate with the relevant authorities and emergency services and fully support their enquiries into the causes of this fire at the appropriate time.
Given the ongoing nature of the incident and the tragic events overnight, it would be inappropriate for us to speculate or comment further at this stage.
http://www.rydon.co.uk/news/grenfell-tower
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
That's a huge fire
I vaguely remember a call to make fire sprinklers mandatory in new builds.
My job involves a weekly test of fire alarms and sprinklers in a retail environment.
Having tried to burn an old suite not very long ago found it impossible, the spread and the ferocity of this fire is unbelievable in 2017.
My job involves a weekly test of fire alarms and sprinklers in a retail environment.
Having tried to burn an old suite not very long ago found it impossible, the spread and the ferocity of this fire is unbelievable in 2017.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
That's a huge fire
I jotted a few numbers on a scrap of paper, I reckon that building had 50 tons of styrofoam wrapped around it with air-gaps to stay dry, all of which went up in flames. I'll be interested to see the actual figure, but that guess is around 8 times as much weight of combustible material and a lot more calorific than fed the Kings Cross fire.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
That's a huge fire
The company that did the cladding have just been reported as saying they are unaware of any link between the fire and the cladding.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
That's a huge fire
There's not been an investigation yet, so there's no link yet. Lightweight external insulation panels made up mostly of carbon and hydrogen, that's what.
They admit they put cladding up, then?
Ask whether it added thermal insulation to the building. Then ask how thick the panels were.
They admit they put cladding up, then?
Ask whether it added thermal insulation to the building. Then ask how thick the panels were.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
That's a huge fire
It seems successive Housing Ministers having been kicking a review of Fire Safety regs down the road since 2013 which deals with exactly this sort of issue. Apparently all new builds over 30m high have to have sprinklers but they weren't forced to retrofit older buildings of which there are about 4,000 across the country.
It must have been the cladding I would have thought having seen the pictures. Some of the experts were saying it has to be fire resistant but it clearly wasn't. Which means either the wrong stuff, faulty stuff, or badly fitted. Or any combination of the above.
I have no idea how high the death toll will go. 100 seems very possible. I thought it would be many more than that at first but it seems at least some people did get down from all but the top 3 or 4 storeys. One of the terrible tragedies about this is that the advice normally is to stay put and let the Fire Brigade get on with putting the fire out, which works since the flats are all made from fire resistant materials which are designed to stop the fire spreading. But if something like the cladding going up bypasses that system, it means many died from following the official advice.
It must have been the cladding I would have thought having seen the pictures. Some of the experts were saying it has to be fire resistant but it clearly wasn't. Which means either the wrong stuff, faulty stuff, or badly fitted. Or any combination of the above.
I have no idea how high the death toll will go. 100 seems very possible. I thought it would be many more than that at first but it seems at least some people did get down from all but the top 3 or 4 storeys. One of the terrible tragedies about this is that the advice normally is to stay put and let the Fire Brigade get on with putting the fire out, which works since the flats are all made from fire resistant materials which are designed to stop the fire spreading. But if something like the cladding going up bypasses that system, it means many died from following the official advice.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
That's a huge fire
Anyone with the words "Human Resources" or "spokesperson" in their job description is a trained inveterate deflector from truth, descended from a long line of unmarried antisocial liars and no doubt raising a loathsome brood of unrighteous children we would do well to ban from all forms of employment for life.
The BBC reports that "the work also included the installation of new cladding - consisting of two aluminium sheets with a polyethylene core."
Observe the attached graphic. The material described in the article is the skin exposed to daylight, signified in very dark brown.
The bulkier stuff marked in yellow is the external thermal cladding and has nothing to do with the "two aluminium sheets with a polyethylene core". The essential question is what it was made of and how thick it was. My money's still on "lightweight external insulation panels made up mostly of carbon and hydrogen", for which the word Styrofoam is a pretty good approximation. The "two aluminium sheets with a polyethylene core" is intended to deceive. The word "consisting" is untrue, the word can at best be "including" and the sentence leaves out the prime inflammable component.
Attached files
The BBC reports that "the work also included the installation of new cladding - consisting of two aluminium sheets with a polyethylene core."
Observe the attached graphic. The material described in the article is the skin exposed to daylight, signified in very dark brown.
The bulkier stuff marked in yellow is the external thermal cladding and has nothing to do with the "two aluminium sheets with a polyethylene core". The essential question is what it was made of and how thick it was. My money's still on "lightweight external insulation panels made up mostly of carbon and hydrogen", for which the word Styrofoam is a pretty good approximation. The "two aluminium sheets with a polyethylene core" is intended to deceive. The word "consisting" is untrue, the word can at best be "including" and the sentence leaves out the prime inflammable component.
Attached files
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
That's a huge fire
Here we are - a diagram from http://www.harleyfacades.co.uk/File/pro ... 0Tower.pdf for a tower the same firm clad in Wandsworth. Observe the external panels. Observe the lightweight external insulation panels in yellow between the structural wall and the external panels.
Attached files
Attached files
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
That's a huge fire
I will return to my attempting to burn old furniture. If it is up to regulation standards, it doesn't burn, it is impossible to set it alight. The cladding on that building was not fire proof, no doubt at all, any other variations on that are lies.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
That's a huge fire
If the thick layer is just plain mineral wool with no organic binder or oil then I shall apologize to Harley Facades for doubting their competence. If it's not, perhaps they'd like to say Castlemaine Tower in Wandsworth is safe for occupation in the light of what happened yesterday. Nothing about "meets all required building control, fire regulation and health & safety standards", just yes it can't burn. If the thick layer is a byproduct of the petrochemical industry then it's not rock, it's reformulated petrol, and it can.
Bruv;1510203 wrote: I will return to my attempting to burn old furniture.
If your old furniture is retarded then it would need heating above an unspecified temperature before it will behave like an inferno, a mere lighter flame won't do it.
Bruv;1510203 wrote: I will return to my attempting to burn old furniture.
If your old furniture is retarded then it would need heating above an unspecified temperature before it will behave like an inferno, a mere lighter flame won't do it.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
That's a huge fire
It looks as though the real reason for the fatalities was a hole in the regs allowing the building company to install utterly inappropriate materials which are presumably much cheaper than specially resistant ones. It also seems the Housing Ministers who kicked the review down the road are in large part responsible, along with the people who saw a chance to save some money on materials, whether it be in the Council, the management organisation or the building firm.
May's new chief of staff is the last Housing Minister...
May's new chief of staff is the last Housing Minister...
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
That's a huge fire
Why are people surprised when everybody mucks in to help? It's human nature to work and live together more so than it is to go around killing and finding reasons to hate that's why yopu need religion and political ideologies to counteract it. Maggie thatcher may have said there is no such thing as community but she was wrong.
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
That's a huge fire
Yep. It seems that everyone pitched in regardless.
It doesn't in any way make up for this appalling incident but at least there is something good to see in the midst of it all.
At present I'm looking at immediate culprits as the company that did the work with materials that bypassed the safety system. The management of that company, or at least some within it, must either have known they were doing something that turned the tower into a death trap or been sold goods that were faulty. Unless the company is the innocent victim of fraud it seems to me they were culpably negligent. How far cover ups and nasty political manoeuvrings might go (there are some suggestions Kensington Council has been trying to get rid of the social housing there for years as a blot on their posh borough) is anyone's guess. As far as the PM's current private staff at least.
edit: It's beginning to seem there has been a total top to bottom system failure: Bad people, bad choices, political apathy if not malevolence, regulation failures...it just goes on. What sort of a place are we living in?
It doesn't in any way make up for this appalling incident but at least there is something good to see in the midst of it all.
At present I'm looking at immediate culprits as the company that did the work with materials that bypassed the safety system. The management of that company, or at least some within it, must either have known they were doing something that turned the tower into a death trap or been sold goods that were faulty. Unless the company is the innocent victim of fraud it seems to me they were culpably negligent. How far cover ups and nasty political manoeuvrings might go (there are some suggestions Kensington Council has been trying to get rid of the social housing there for years as a blot on their posh borough) is anyone's guess. As far as the PM's current private staff at least.
edit: It's beginning to seem there has been a total top to bottom system failure: Bad people, bad choices, political apathy if not malevolence, regulation failures...it just goes on. What sort of a place are we living in?
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
That's a huge fire
I see the request for an Inquest rather than an Inquiry because an Inquest has greater powers with evidence taken from those that saw the events unfold.
The Times reports the fire resistant panels would have cost just another £5.000, and that the panels used have been banned in several countries.
The Times reports the fire resistant panels would have cost just another £5.000, and that the panels used have been banned in several countries.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
That's a huge fire
Clodhopper;1510236 wrote: Yep. It seems that everyone pitched in regardless.
It doesn't in any way make up for this appalling incident but at least there is something good to see in the midst of it all.
At present I'm looking at immediate culprits as the company that did the work with materials that bypassed the safety system. The management of that company, or at least some within it, must either have known they were doing something that turned the tower into a death trap or been sold goods that were faulty. Unless the company is the innocent victim of fraud it seems to me they were culpably negligent. How far cover ups and nasty political manoeuvrings might go (there are some suggestions Kensington Council has been trying to get rid of the social housing there for years as a blot on their posh borough) is anyone's guess. As far as the PM's current private staff at least.
edit: It's beginning to seem there has been a total top to bottom system failure: Bad people, bad choices, political apathy if not malevolence, regulation failures...it just goes on. What sort of a place are we living in?
One word Mr. Clodhopper......................CORRUPT !
It doesn't in any way make up for this appalling incident but at least there is something good to see in the midst of it all.
At present I'm looking at immediate culprits as the company that did the work with materials that bypassed the safety system. The management of that company, or at least some within it, must either have known they were doing something that turned the tower into a death trap or been sold goods that were faulty. Unless the company is the innocent victim of fraud it seems to me they were culpably negligent. How far cover ups and nasty political manoeuvrings might go (there are some suggestions Kensington Council has been trying to get rid of the social housing there for years as a blot on their posh borough) is anyone's guess. As far as the PM's current private staff at least.
edit: It's beginning to seem there has been a total top to bottom system failure: Bad people, bad choices, political apathy if not malevolence, regulation failures...it just goes on. What sort of a place are we living in?
One word Mr. Clodhopper......................CORRUPT !
I'm a Saga-lout, growing old disgracefully
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
That's a huge fire
I've had the impression for years that Tory boroughs were run as get rich quick schemes. Maybe I've just been unlucky in the ones I've seen or heard about. This might just blow the whole thing open. There's already a lot of news management going on - Lily Allen says the police and fire people at the scene told her it looked to be about 150 dead with a very high proportion of children and this is being kept from us she thinks (and I probably agree) in an effort to manage public anger. I don't think it's going to work this time - the leader of the Council coming out and saying the lack of sprinklers was the residents' fault isn't going to cool things down...
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
That's a huge fire
I don't believe they are tactically holding information back.
The ferocity of the fire was such that I expect there are ashes rather than recognisable remains.
Although I heard an angry woman saying somebody passing on the train saw lots of body bags.
In the circumstances they are probably trying to identify bodies from amongst a lot of charred remains.
The ferocity of the fire was such that I expect there are ashes rather than recognisable remains.
Although I heard an angry woman saying somebody passing on the train saw lots of body bags.
In the circumstances they are probably trying to identify bodies from amongst a lot of charred remains.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
That's a huge fire
My theory, which is mine, is that the flats were all well protected against fire spreading from one to another within the building or from the stairwell. My theory is that if you have an intense inferno up the wall outside a flat, and the flat's windows explode with the heat on the outdoor surfaces, then the fire gets in through a route it ought not to have had available to it. I also reckon that a lot of the flats will have had their windows ajar through the night on account of getting a bit of a breeze during the hot summer, but that last bit is just surmising.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
That's a huge fire
Almost riots in the streets
Grenfell Tower residents storm Kensington Town Hall in angry protest over deadly fire | The Independent
I think corbyn has given life to the language of protest and the reminder that people choose the government rather than just take all the crap. I suspect the blairites are looking for their dtones to crawl back under.
Grenfell Tower residents storm Kensington Town Hall in angry protest over deadly fire | The Independent
I think corbyn has given life to the language of protest and the reminder that people choose the government rather than just take all the crap. I suspect the blairites are looking for their dtones to crawl back under.
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
That's a huge fire
This is nothing to do with Corbyn or any other politician. This is off the streets. The lack of co-ordination of the volunteers got no back up from anyone official at the Council. The Council look as though they are using this to get the people out of their borough. This is really socially and politically explosive at present.
(Yes, the SWP turned up with ready made placards, but they always do. Means nothing in terms of this being organised by political forces with axes to grind. This was from the gut)
Oh, it seems the cladding was £2 a block cheaper - £5000 for the tower - than the flame resistant stuff. The protests are about the attitude of the authorities. it's about being a 2nd class citizen and more and more people who used to feel they had a stake in the status quo no longer do. In London that's a lot of issues and varies from person to person. For me it's brexit. For anyone in a social housing tower block it's about being safe to sleep.
(Yes, the SWP turned up with ready made placards, but they always do. Means nothing in terms of this being organised by political forces with axes to grind. This was from the gut)
Oh, it seems the cladding was £2 a block cheaper - £5000 for the tower - than the flame resistant stuff. The protests are about the attitude of the authorities. it's about being a 2nd class citizen and more and more people who used to feel they had a stake in the status quo no longer do. In London that's a lot of issues and varies from person to person. For me it's brexit. For anyone in a social housing tower block it's about being safe to sleep.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
That's a huge fire
I honestly think the anger is natural but.......in such events realistically.....who is supposed to coordinate things ?
Is there an appointed official for such emergencies ?
Council officials are not there because of flair for innovation or invention.....they are time servers.
Unfortunately there are no stand out heroes employed at this local authority.
Is there an appointed official for such emergencies ?
Council officials are not there because of flair for innovation or invention.....they are time servers.
Unfortunately there are no stand out heroes employed at this local authority.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
That's a huge fire
The leader of the Council was happy to blame residents of the tower for the lack of sprinklers, but where was he when something needed to be done? Why wasn't he on the phone rousing people out or at the least being there himself? If May is culpable for not being there, he is many times more culpable.
A leader is supposed to lead. No signs so far - except on the street.
A leader is supposed to lead. No signs so far - except on the street.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
That's a huge fire
Ive had a few whiskys .......I dare not answer.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
That's a huge fire
Clodhopper;1510255 wrote: This is nothing to do with Corbyn or any other politician. This is off the streets. The lack of co-ordination of the volunteers got no back up from anyone official at the Council. The Council look as though they are using this to get the people out of their borough. This is really socially and politically explosive at present.
(Yes, the SWP turned up with ready made placards, but they always do. Means nothing in terms of this being organised by political forces with axes to grind. This was from the gut)
Oh, it seems the cladding was £2 a block cheaper - £5000 for the tower - than the flame resistant stuff. The protests are about the attitude of the authorities. it's about being a 2nd class citizen and more and more people who used to feel they had a stake in the status quo no longer do. In London that's a lot of issues and varies from person to person. For me it's brexit. For anyone in a social housing tower block it's about being safe to sleep.
I didn't say it had anything to do with with corbyn what I said was I said he has helped give life back to the language of protest and reminded people that they can actually choose what kind of government and society we have to live in. Since blair the langiage of politics had become a kind of bland corporate newspeak with professional politicians forgetting who is in charge.
I'm not particularly a corbyn supporter but when was the last time you saw a politician drawing crowds to hear him speak? Be interesting how it all pans out.
Boris might be in trouble as well.
https://www.indy100.com/article/boris-j ... ce-7790971
(Yes, the SWP turned up with ready made placards, but they always do. Means nothing in terms of this being organised by political forces with axes to grind. This was from the gut)
Oh, it seems the cladding was £2 a block cheaper - £5000 for the tower - than the flame resistant stuff. The protests are about the attitude of the authorities. it's about being a 2nd class citizen and more and more people who used to feel they had a stake in the status quo no longer do. In London that's a lot of issues and varies from person to person. For me it's brexit. For anyone in a social housing tower block it's about being safe to sleep.
I didn't say it had anything to do with with corbyn what I said was I said he has helped give life back to the language of protest and reminded people that they can actually choose what kind of government and society we have to live in. Since blair the langiage of politics had become a kind of bland corporate newspeak with professional politicians forgetting who is in charge.
I'm not particularly a corbyn supporter but when was the last time you saw a politician drawing crowds to hear him speak? Be interesting how it all pans out.
Boris might be in trouble as well.
https://www.indy100.com/article/boris-j ... ce-7790971
That's a huge fire
It is the Daily Mail but if half of it is near the truth.....oh dear.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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magentaflame
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That's a huge fire
I'm gobsmacked. I'm saddened. And watching the inferno on telly I was stunned. How does that happen in London??????
In all my time in the fire services and even as a child I was taught you had the best fire brigades the best firemen and women. That your official laws and standards of building codes were among the best and we copied you guys. When I was watching it I asked " where the hell is that happening?" when mum said London I didn't believe her and thought she had it wrong.
what a horrible inquest to be involved in. It will take months if not years for this to be gotten through. I don't envy the investigators.
In all my time in the fire services and even as a child I was taught you had the best fire brigades the best firemen and women. That your official laws and standards of building codes were among the best and we copied you guys. When I was watching it I asked " where the hell is that happening?" when mum said London I didn't believe her and thought she had it wrong.
what a horrible inquest to be involved in. It will take months if not years for this to be gotten through. I don't envy the investigators.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
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magentaflame
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- Location: Victoria, Australia
That's a huge fire
My theory, which is mine, is that the flats were all well protected against fire spreading from one to another within the building or from the stairwell.
And you'd be wrong.
And you'd be wrong.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
That's a huge fire
magentaflame;1510277 wrote: And you'd be wrong.
I've seen no evidence that "the flats were all well protected against fire spreading from one to another within the building or from the stairwell" is wrong. Why do you think it's wrong? Would you like to point to anything at all which indicates it's wrong, in which case I'll understand your reason and apologize for having confused the thread with a false statement? I'm baffled, I don't know what you're aware of that I'm not because you haven't yet told me.
I've seen no evidence that "the flats were all well protected against fire spreading from one to another within the building or from the stairwell" is wrong. Why do you think it's wrong? Would you like to point to anything at all which indicates it's wrong, in which case I'll understand your reason and apologize for having confused the thread with a false statement? I'm baffled, I don't know what you're aware of that I'm not because you haven't yet told me.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
That's a huge fire
gmc;1510268 wrote: I didn't say it had anything to do with with corbyn what I said was I said he has helped give life back to the language of protest and reminded people that they can actually choose what kind of government and society we have to live in. Since blair the langiage of politics had become a kind of bland corporate newspeak with professional politicians forgetting who is in charge.
I'm not particularly a corbyn supporter but when was the last time you saw a politician drawing crowds to hear him speak? Be interesting how it all pans out.
Boris might be in trouble as well.
https://www.indy100.com/article/boris-j ... ce-7790971
Hmm. Maybe he's had some slight effect overall. I think it's more that the fire triggered something much wider. It may just fade away, but this seems to me to be about the attitude of government, whether local or national.
Trump and Obama both drew crowds to hear them speak. I think Obama is the best speaker I've heard since Churchill. In this country? Not sure. I gather Enoch Powell was a heck of a public speaker.
I'm not particularly a corbyn supporter but when was the last time you saw a politician drawing crowds to hear him speak? Be interesting how it all pans out.
Boris might be in trouble as well.
https://www.indy100.com/article/boris-j ... ce-7790971
Hmm. Maybe he's had some slight effect overall. I think it's more that the fire triggered something much wider. It may just fade away, but this seems to me to be about the attitude of government, whether local or national.
Trump and Obama both drew crowds to hear them speak. I think Obama is the best speaker I've heard since Churchill. In this country? Not sure. I gather Enoch Powell was a heck of a public speaker.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
That's a huge fire
Grenfell Tower Fire in London is Evidence That WTC 7 Was a Controlled Demolition
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Clodhopper
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That's a huge fire
katsung47;1510356 wrote: Grenfell Tower Fire in London is Evidence That WTC 7 Was a Controlled Demolition
Bull****.
The twin towers got hit by fully fuelled jumbo jets and were 110 storeys high. The Grenfell tower was 24 storeys and the cladding seems to have gone up. Comparisons of the sort on the u-tube video are complete rubbish and deeply offensive to our people and yours who died.
Bull****.
The twin towers got hit by fully fuelled jumbo jets and were 110 storeys high. The Grenfell tower was 24 storeys and the cladding seems to have gone up. Comparisons of the sort on the u-tube video are complete rubbish and deeply offensive to our people and yours who died.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
That's a huge fire
I live in a Tower Block in Southampton. Over the past decade there's been a couple of major fires in the blocks (as listed below (one in Shirley Towers, where 2 firefighters were killed, and another in Redbridge Towers). Both of which were confined to the single flat. Of course, the entire blocks were evacuated, just to be on the safe side, but nonetheless it was contained. At the moment, none of the blocks have sprinklers or even alarms. To be honest, I'm not even comfortable with the idea of sprinklers being put in my flat. All it takes is for some kid to be messing about with one of them in the block & they all go off in the entire block. The same thing goes for the alarms. Where there's fire alarms in public areas you're always going to get kids (or plain irresponsible adults) setting them off all the time "for a bit of a laugh". At which point they cease to have any value. We all know the problems with Smoke Alarms - you do some cooking - next thing you know you've got to remove the batteries to shut the bloody things up. It's like with car alarms. Who really takes any notice of them when they're going off at night. When you hear one do you ever stop to think "hey, someone's getting their car broken into"? No, you think, "turn that bloody alarm off". An alarm & sprinkler system is all well & good when used correctly, such as in a place of work, for instance, but I'm not convinced about their value in Tower Blocks - and that's coming from someone who lives in one.
As for the cause - there are still many stories going about as to what set it off in the first place - one possible one is due to an electrical fault in a fridge. The question is a matter of why it spread. That much is beyond doubt. The entire outer facade was cased in plastic, flammable cladding, with polystyrene insulation blocks (also extremely flammable), with great big air gaps allowing for a free flow of oxygen. A bonfire couldn't have been bulit better. Within days of the event we all got letters reassuring us that the Southampton Council had contracted Leadbitter (the company that was turned down to do Grenfell, as their bid was too high, due to it using proper materials) who had used proper fire retardent facings with Rockwool insulation (also fire retardent), as well as having shut off / rerouted many of the air ducts. Basically, the Southampton Council (Labour) had not scrimped on cost over public safety.
On a slightly different tack, though, the other day a section of railway in Totton, just outside of Southampton was closed, due to the rail having warped from the heat of the sun. I couldn't help wondering what quality of steel we were looking at, when you consider that the steel structure of Grenfell is still standing. Quite a tribute to the quality of work of the day, if you think about it.
£2m to fit sprinklers in Southampton’s high-rise homes (From Daily Echo)
PHOTOS AND VIDEO: Fire rips through flat in blaze at Southampton's Redbridge Towers (From Daily Echo)
Hampshire fire chief Dave Curry calls for sprinklers to be installed in all tower blocks after Grenfell Tower fire (From Daily Echo)
As for the cause - there are still many stories going about as to what set it off in the first place - one possible one is due to an electrical fault in a fridge. The question is a matter of why it spread. That much is beyond doubt. The entire outer facade was cased in plastic, flammable cladding, with polystyrene insulation blocks (also extremely flammable), with great big air gaps allowing for a free flow of oxygen. A bonfire couldn't have been bulit better. Within days of the event we all got letters reassuring us that the Southampton Council had contracted Leadbitter (the company that was turned down to do Grenfell, as their bid was too high, due to it using proper materials) who had used proper fire retardent facings with Rockwool insulation (also fire retardent), as well as having shut off / rerouted many of the air ducts. Basically, the Southampton Council (Labour) had not scrimped on cost over public safety.
On a slightly different tack, though, the other day a section of railway in Totton, just outside of Southampton was closed, due to the rail having warped from the heat of the sun. I couldn't help wondering what quality of steel we were looking at, when you consider that the steel structure of Grenfell is still standing. Quite a tribute to the quality of work of the day, if you think about it.
£2m to fit sprinklers in Southampton’s high-rise homes (From Daily Echo)
PHOTOS AND VIDEO: Fire rips through flat in blaze at Southampton's Redbridge Towers (From Daily Echo)
Hampshire fire chief Dave Curry calls for sprinklers to be installed in all tower blocks after Grenfell Tower fire (From Daily Echo)
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
That's a huge fire
The rails warping is probably due to there being insufficient gap between each rail, so when they have expanded in the recent heat the ends of several rails have expanded together and the only place the force can go is to bend the rail. If that's not an isolated cock up the entire rail network could grind to a halt...
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
That's a huge fire
Have no idea how it works but most railway line is welded these days according to Wiki
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
That's a huge fire
I had a 15 minute delay in Somerset on Saturday while the line was checked for buckling. And that was at 7.30pm.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
That's a huge fire
Bruv;1510417 wrote: Have no idea how it works but most railway line is welded these days according to Wiki
Thanks
.
Apparently it's the same problem though - the temperature gets too high for the restraints, with buckling the result.
Thanks
.Apparently it's the same problem though - the temperature gets too high for the restraints, with buckling the result.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
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Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
That's a huge fire
Just to try to assess the state of what we might know:
There was a fire in a fridge somewhere between the 4th and 7th floor of the Grenfell Tower at about 11.45pm. The Fire Brigade are called and deal with it. They do so and are leaving a bit after midnight when the external cladding, which no-one there realises is not fireproof and has been smouldering after some hot material, perhaps curtains, got onto it, goes up in a sheet of flame, bypassing all safety measures based on the self contained and fire-retardant nature of the individual flats.
Back come the fire brigade and quickly call for help. Lots of it. Unfortunately the speed of the blaze, the falling debris, the broken gas pipes and other obstructions in the stairwell mean that it's increasingly difficult to get in or out, and the 999 operators are understandably still giving the normal advice for residents in a fire: stay put and shut the door. Things have developed so fast they aren't aware of the changed conditions.
Reports on the cladding and the regs seem a bit confused but there are several suggestions that there ARE regs that prohibit the use of this stuff on buildings like the Grenfell Tower. If so the builders are guilty of mass murder. There seems no doubt that successive ministers have been kicking the can down the road on the subject of updated regulations and this is an area that I hope will be looked at properly. Thee are also questions about inspections and whether the cladding was part of what they inspected, or was that part of the regs the ministers weren't implementing?
My guess is that we will find multiple failures, of individuals, of organisations and of regulations. Disasters of this sort usually require several things to go wrong in connected ways.
There was a fire in a fridge somewhere between the 4th and 7th floor of the Grenfell Tower at about 11.45pm. The Fire Brigade are called and deal with it. They do so and are leaving a bit after midnight when the external cladding, which no-one there realises is not fireproof and has been smouldering after some hot material, perhaps curtains, got onto it, goes up in a sheet of flame, bypassing all safety measures based on the self contained and fire-retardant nature of the individual flats.
Back come the fire brigade and quickly call for help. Lots of it. Unfortunately the speed of the blaze, the falling debris, the broken gas pipes and other obstructions in the stairwell mean that it's increasingly difficult to get in or out, and the 999 operators are understandably still giving the normal advice for residents in a fire: stay put and shut the door. Things have developed so fast they aren't aware of the changed conditions.
Reports on the cladding and the regs seem a bit confused but there are several suggestions that there ARE regs that prohibit the use of this stuff on buildings like the Grenfell Tower. If so the builders are guilty of mass murder. There seems no doubt that successive ministers have been kicking the can down the road on the subject of updated regulations and this is an area that I hope will be looked at properly. Thee are also questions about inspections and whether the cladding was part of what they inspected, or was that part of the regs the ministers weren't implementing?
My guess is that we will find multiple failures, of individuals, of organisations and of regulations. Disasters of this sort usually require several things to go wrong in connected ways.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
That's a huge fire
Have no link but I heard the cladding used was ok for buildings up to 10 metres only.
So the material was safe, if said quickly, it was the application that was unsuitable.
So the material was safe, if said quickly, it was the application that was unsuitable.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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Clodhopper
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- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
That's a huge fire
According to the Mirror newspaper on my msn feed Kensington & Chelsea have been removed from the leadership of the relief effort which is being handled instead by neighbouring Boroughs.
They do appear to have been a national disgrace.
The whole thing is a national disgrace. Look at Magentaflame's reaction on this thread to see what I mean.
They do appear to have been a national disgrace.
The whole thing is a national disgrace. Look at Magentaflame's reaction on this thread to see what I mean.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
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magentaflame
- Posts: 3007
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
- Location: Victoria, Australia
That's a huge fire
Bruv;1510443 wrote: Have no link but I heard the cladding used was ok for buildings up to 10 metres only.
So the material was safe, if said quickly, it was the application that was unsuitable.
That's strange, our (news)reports are telling us that this cladding failed all basic fire tests. The fire services are responding quickly here with urgent audits. It's heartbreaking the images of the aftermath. Seeing peoples daily lives in black still standing as it was before. And we are also getting reports of how people are helping but no emergency set up from government. NOW THAT"S DISGRACEFUL!!!!
Just for peoples info...... I won't return to an office building that doesn't have a sprinkler system in it, that I can see. It's basic **** in this day and age.
And may I give some advice here . If your fire alarm in your house is over ten years old REPLACE IT NOW! Do not buy one on line. Go to a shop and get their expertise on WHAT KIND of fire alarm you need. There are different kinds that detect different kinds of air particles. The one you installed in the nineties will not give you the protection you think it does. Like all technologies there are updates. Think of the differences in Air particles say between your garage and bedroom. Completely different .
So the material was safe, if said quickly, it was the application that was unsuitable.
That's strange, our (news)reports are telling us that this cladding failed all basic fire tests. The fire services are responding quickly here with urgent audits. It's heartbreaking the images of the aftermath. Seeing peoples daily lives in black still standing as it was before. And we are also getting reports of how people are helping but no emergency set up from government. NOW THAT"S DISGRACEFUL!!!!
Just for peoples info...... I won't return to an office building that doesn't have a sprinkler system in it, that I can see. It's basic **** in this day and age.
And may I give some advice here . If your fire alarm in your house is over ten years old REPLACE IT NOW! Do not buy one on line. Go to a shop and get their expertise on WHAT KIND of fire alarm you need. There are different kinds that detect different kinds of air particles. The one you installed in the nineties will not give you the protection you think it does. Like all technologies there are updates. Think of the differences in Air particles say between your garage and bedroom. Completely different .
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
That's a huge fire
HANSARD 1803–2005 → 1990s → 1993 → November 1993 → 3 November 1993 → Written Answers (Commons) → ENVIRONMENT
Tower Blocks
HC Deb 03 November 1993 vol 231 cc205-6W
206W
§
Mr. Straw
To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will place in the Library a list of tower blocks erected in England by local authorities for housing purposes,(a) currently in occupation or (b) demolished or awaiting demolition with details in the year in which approvals for construction and/or financing was given by his Department, and the number of dwellings in each block, where this occurred in 1963 and thereafter.
§
Mr. Gummer
The information requested is not collected by this Department.
Perhaps someone could raise this request a second time.
Tower Blocks
HC Deb 03 November 1993 vol 231 cc205-6W
206W
§
Mr. Straw
To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will place in the Library a list of tower blocks erected in England by local authorities for housing purposes,(a) currently in occupation or (b) demolished or awaiting demolition with details in the year in which approvals for construction and/or financing was given by his Department, and the number of dwellings in each block, where this occurred in 1963 and thereafter.
§
Mr. Gummer
The information requested is not collected by this Department.
Perhaps someone could raise this request a second time.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
magentaflame
- Posts: 3007
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
- Location: Victoria, Australia
That's a huge fire
spot;1510593 wrote: HANSARD 1803–2005 → 1990s → 1993 → November 1993 → 3 November 1993 → Written Answers (Commons) → ENVIRONMENT
Tower Blocks
HC Deb 03 November 1993 vol 231 cc205-6W
206W
§
Mr. Straw
To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will place in the Library a list of tower blocks erected in England by local authorities for housing purposes,(a) currently in occupation or (b) demolished or awaiting demolition with details in the year in which approvals for construction and/or financing was given by his Department, and the number of dwellings in each block, where this occurred in 1963 and thereafter.
§
Mr. Gummer
The information requested is not collected by this Department.
Perhaps someone could raise this request a second time.
You've lost me..... Are you saying this tower block was pegged for demolition?
Tower Blocks
HC Deb 03 November 1993 vol 231 cc205-6W
206W
§
Mr. Straw
To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will place in the Library a list of tower blocks erected in England by local authorities for housing purposes,(a) currently in occupation or (b) demolished or awaiting demolition with details in the year in which approvals for construction and/or financing was given by his Department, and the number of dwellings in each block, where this occurred in 1963 and thereafter.
§
Mr. Gummer
The information requested is not collected by this Department.
Perhaps someone could raise this request a second time.
You've lost me..... Are you saying this tower block was pegged for demolition?
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
That's a huge fire
No, that wouldn't be true.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
magentaflame
- Posts: 3007
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
- Location: Victoria, Australia
That's a huge fire
then what is it? He wants a list of what is in private hands or government?
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
That's a huge fire
"a list of tower blocks erected in England by local authorities for housing purposes".
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
That's a huge fire
Clodhopper;1510362 wrote: Bull****.
The twin towers got hit by fully fuelled jumbo jets and were 110 storeys high. The Grenfell tower was 24 storeys and the cladding seems to have gone up. Comparisons of the sort on the u-tube video are complete rubbish and deeply offensive to our people and yours who died.
Even if you want to defend the official story, clean your mind first to read my words. It's about WTC 7. Was there a Jumbo jet hit WTC 7?
Original words:
Grenfell Tower Fire in London is Evidence That WTC 7 Was a Controlled Demolition
The twin towers got hit by fully fuelled jumbo jets and were 110 storeys high. The Grenfell tower was 24 storeys and the cladding seems to have gone up. Comparisons of the sort on the u-tube video are complete rubbish and deeply offensive to our people and yours who died.
Even if you want to defend the official story, clean your mind first to read my words. It's about WTC 7. Was there a Jumbo jet hit WTC 7?
Original words:
Grenfell Tower Fire in London is Evidence That WTC 7 Was a Controlled Demolition