Afghan Honor Killing in Germany

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Tue May 27, 2008 12:51 pm

Afghan Girl's 'Honor Killing' Sparks Debate in Germany

Tuesday , May 27, 2008

The brutal "honor killing" of a 16-year-old Afghan immigrant by her brother has sparked a renewed debate in Germany over whether Islamic families can adapt to the social ways of the Western world.

The girl, Morsal Obeidi, was ambushed in the parking lot of a Hamburg McDonald's restaurant by her 23-year-old brother Ahmad, who stabbed the girl 20 times, Spiegel Online reported. Hamburg is home to more than 20,000 Afghan immigrants, the most of any European city, the Web site reported.

Morsal Obeidi had long struggled with a tug-of-war between her desire to live like her friends in Germany, and her familyâ€™s desire to preserve their Afghan lifestyle, the site reported.

Obeidi's arguments with her brother and father, over things like her appearance, smoking and drinking, often turned physical. She reportedly sought the protection of a child and youth welfare agency to escape the violence on more than one occasion. Ahmed reportedly told police that he killed his sister because she had become too comfortable with Western life with her uncovered hair, makeup and short skirts.

chrisb84uk · Post by **chrisb84uk** » Tue May 27, 2008 1:03 pm

That's such a sad and horrible story, to think that wanting to adapt to a new lifestyle in a different country could result in such awful circumstances, and by a member of your own family as well!!

Post by **spot** » Tue May 27, 2008 1:13 pm

You consider the murder of strangers more socially acceptable, RG?

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Tue May 27, 2008 2:38 pm

Premeditated Murder. Should mean life imprisonment, also if any of the family are found to be culpable for egging on this young man to murder his own sister, because of some barbaric Asian custom, they should be jailed also, as should any mosque elders who would attempt to "teach" people to do this. As far as I can remember, Hamburg is a major port in the Federal Republic of Germany, its not Kandahar, if Afganistani's are unhappy with this fact, I am sure there are plenty of military transports to bring them home to their own culture. Enough of this nonsense.

Post by **spot** » Tue May 27, 2008 3:08 pm

I've a point to make, if I'm not sidestepped.

If I may take Canada as an example?

A quarter of the 650 or so solved homicides each year are domestic.

A quarter of those - 42 - are parents killing their children. Oh, and 9 are sibling murders.

It leaves the majority of homicides as the killing of strangers.

I asked whether we considered the murder of strangers more socially acceptable than the murder of family. It seems a fair way to approach the OP.

Post by **spot** » Tue May 27, 2008 3:18 pm

Because it's nothing to do with Islam, of course.

I didn't ask about fair, I was very specific. Is it more socially acceptable to murder a stranger than to murder a family member?

Post by **spot** » Tue May 27, 2008 3:23 pm

Jester;875809 wrote: Nothing to do with Islam? On that you must explain how this has nothing to do with Islam.

On the contrary, if you think it's religious and not a local cultural demand I think you ought to show the religious basis for it.

I said recently in another thread that there'll be more witches killed by Christians this year than there'll be family members killed in honour killings. I merely note that the killers are Chrtistians because they're instructed in their bible not to allow witches to continue to live and that's why they kill them - it's a religious demand on Christians.

Honour killings, on the other hand, aren't demanded in the Koran. Honour killings are based on local culture, not on religion.

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Tue May 27, 2008 3:30 pm

spot;875796 wrote:

I asked whether we considered the murder of strangers more socially acceptable than the murder of family. It seems a fair way to approach the OP.

"We" nuthin'. I call BS. Fat lot YOU know about "fair".

Your first post in this thread was calculated to violate at least the

first two parts of the first site rule about not harrassing or insulting

other members.

If I thought it wouldn't be a wasted effort, I'd have reported it.

Poke, poke, POKE. Almost constant freakin' POKE.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue May 27, 2008 3:35 pm

spot;875796 wrote: I've a point to make, if I'm not sidestepped.

If I may take Canada as an example?

A quarter of the 650 or so solved homicides each year are domestic.

A quarter of those - 42 - are parents killing their children. Oh, and 9 are sibling murders.

It leaves the majority of homicides as the killing of strangers.

I asked whether we considered the murder of strangers more socially acceptable than the murder of family. It seems a fair way to approach the OP.

Absolutely not...

He should get no more of a lenient sentence just because the victim in this case happened to be his sibling...

He committed this crime in a state that looks down upon such a heinous practice...He should be tried as a cold blooded murderer...

Which brings me to my question...If these people as a family didn't agree with the lifestyles in which those of whom they were moving in next to then why did they move their in the first place?...

Poor girl...

I don't believe in killing as a form of punishment but I do believe this person should be stripped of every freedom he possessed before this complete and utter absurdity of an irrational belief ever had taken place....

Post by **spot** » Tue May 27, 2008 3:35 pm

valerie;875812 wrote: "We" nuthin'. I call BS. Fat lot YOU know about "fair".

Your first post in this thread was calculated to violate at least the

first two parts of the first site rule about not harrassing or insulting

other members.

If I thought it wouldn't be a wasted effort, I'd have reported it.

Poke, poke, POKE. Almost constant freakin' POKE.

It's not a poke in the slightest, Val. It's a reaction to a thread in which someone's deliberately ignored 650 murders in another country on their own continent in order to highlight a single murder on another continent whose sole identifying characteristic is that it was committed by a Muslim in an honour killing, and it's one of an entire series of such posts. I'd call it bigoted myself. My question was a start at teasing loose what aspect of murder we consider most abhorrent, and why. It's a fair question.

I'm not harassing, I'm not insulting, I'm reacting to bigotry and asking for an explanation of it.

Post by **spot** » Tue May 27, 2008 3:38 pm

K.Snyder;875815 wrote: I don't believe in killing as a form of punishment but I do believe this person should be stripped of every freedom he possessed before this complete and utter absurdity of an irrational belief ever had taken place....

That's good. In what way does that reaction differ from your reaction to a murder of a stranger? Can you make it comparative?

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Tue May 27, 2008 3:40 pm

Yeah and how did I know you'd attempt another snow job?

Doesn't work, not with ME.

You know my dad always has said "You've gotta get up pretty early

in the morning to get up ahead of me."

There's some that will NEVER get up ahead of ME.

Wear it.

Post by **spot** » Tue May 27, 2008 3:44 pm

valerie;875818 wrote: Yeah and how did I know you'd attempt another snow job?

Doesn't work, not with ME.

You know my dad always has said "You've gotta get up pretty early

in the morning to get up ahead of me."

There's some that will NEVER get up ahead of ME.

Wear it.Bullshit Val. You're targeting me the way you've done solidly for the last year and it has nothing to do with the thread in the slightest. You've a bee in your bonnet that keeps buzzing whenever you see me post.

Wear it.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue May 27, 2008 3:45 pm

spot;875816 wrote: It's not a poke in the slightest, Val. It's a reaction to a thread in which someone's deliberately ignored 650 murders in another country on their own continent in order to highlight a single murder on another continent whose sole identifying characteristic is that it was committed by a Muslim in an honour killing, and it's one of an entire series of such posts. I'd call it bigoted myself. My question was a start at teasing loose what aspect of murder we consider most abhorrent, and why. It's a fair question.

I'm not harassing, I'm not insulting, I'm reacting to bigotry and asking for an explanation of it.

Perhaps she hasn't come across the fact that those 650 people had been murdered...

Considering I think it's safe to assume that she hadn't committed one of them...

Post by **spot** » Tue May 27, 2008 3:50 pm

Jester;875820 wrote: Spot, Witches? You do constantly attempt to add so much fluff to an argument that its truly difficult to determine your point.

The koran also apparently we are told, dont allow for christians to be killed either yet it hasnt stopped them from doing so has it?

The muslum ideology allows for it, I know that becaseu its predominatly muslum cultures that commit the atrocities.

You want me to show you the passage about killing witches?

You're asking me to prove a negative as far as the Koran's concerned - how do I prove there's no passage instructing Muslims to commit honour killings? It's a simple matter, surely, for you to look it up on your anti-Jihad prompt sites and quote the text. I say there is none.

Deuteronomy 18:11-12, Exodus 22:18 - "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live".

Here's the most recent dozen murders by Christians acting out the command - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7414720.stm

You really think this isn't relevant?

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue May 27, 2008 3:50 pm

Jester;875820 wrote: Spot, Witches? You do constantly attempt to add so much fluff to an argument that its truly difficult to determine your point.

The koran also apparently we are told, dont allow for christians to be killed either yet it hasnt stopped them from doing so has it?

The muslum ideology allows for it, I know that becaseu its predominatly muslum cultures that commit the atrocities.

Why do you believe it is a Muslim trait when, far from being predominantly Muslim, it is more often Hindu or African - it's just that those times when it involves a Muslim are more publicised in the National media.

I live in Leicester, a city where more than half of the population are from ethnic minorities and we have a fairly even split between the Africans, Muslims and Indians. The local press report most instances but only the Muslim ones seem to make it into the nationals.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue May 27, 2008 3:52 pm

spot;875817 wrote: That's good. In what way does that reaction differ from your reaction to a murder of a stranger? Can you make it comparative?

Upon anyone trying to kill another person that is not as a direct result of self defense then and only then I feel that anyone has the right to use any means necessary, including the killing of the aggressor, to prevent any murder that would otherwise take place...

Post by **spot** » Tue May 27, 2008 3:54 pm

K.Snyder;875823 wrote: Perhaps she hasn't come across the fact that those 650 people had been murdered...I'm trying to grasp the meaning of that. One murder in Germany gets so much publicity in the USA because it's an honour killing, and none of those fifty or so Canadian family killings a year get reported in the USA because they're just Western parents and brothers routinely slaughtering their children and sisters?

I rest my case.

Post by **spot** » Tue May 27, 2008 3:56 pm

K.Snyder;875831 wrote: Upon anyone trying to kill another person that is not as a direct result of self defense then and only then I feel that anyone has the right to use any means necessary, including the killing of the aggressor, to prevent any murder that would otherwise take place...

That's good. So you make no moral distinction between those fifty Canadian parental and sibling murders a year and this German immigrant honour killing? Both categories are equally despicable?

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue May 27, 2008 4:01 pm

spot;875833 wrote: I'm trying to grasp the meaning of that. One murder in Germany gets so much publicity in the USA because it's an honour killing, and none of those fifty or so Canadian family killings a year get reported in the USA because they're just Western parents and brothers routinely slaughtering their children and sisters?

I rest my case.

Yes but that has nothing to do with her posting a print in the press that just happens to be complying with their beliefs in what it is people would rather read about...

The freedom of the press has no bearing on ideology...

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue May 27, 2008 4:01 pm

spot;875835 wrote: That's good. So you make no moral distinction between those fifty Canadian parental and sibling murders a year and this German immigrant honour killing? Both categories are equally despicable?

Yes...

Post by **spot** » Tue May 27, 2008 4:04 pm

Jester;875837 wrote: :rolleyes: yer nuts, it says a mob burned the 'witches' it does not say it was a Christian mob, nice try.

Theres a lot of things that Muslums do that arent sanctioned by the Koran yet they do them.

The West of Kenya is the Christian part of the country and burning witches is the national pastime after a good hell-fire sermon. I can see that I need to bring up some more Kenyan-Christians-Burning-Witches stories for you if you didn't know that.

So, we're agreed that there's no equivalent command which Muslims are following? Honour killings are predominantly an aspect of tribal culture, I'd thought. I'll tell you what, I'll try looking it up tomorrow. It's gone midnight here and I just got my daughter back.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue May 27, 2008 4:08 pm

Murder is murder and upon anyone voicing the fact that they done so as a result of their religion should be looked down upon by their peers whom claim they are of the same religion...

In other instances then and only then should that religion be deemed immoral and unsuitable for society...

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Tue May 27, 2008 4:11 pm

Why don't we just have one of those voting threads to resolve this.

All Muslims are evil

All Muslims are wonderful

Some are, some aren't

Don't know

Don't care

OOOh a brawl - I'll be in that

I can debate better than you

It's all a conspiracy

Have a life - work to do - bye for now!

None of the above.

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Tue May 27, 2008 4:19 pm

spot;875821 wrote: Bullshit Val. You're targeting me the way you've done solidly for the last year and it has nothing to do with the thread in the slightest. You've a bee in your bonnet that keeps buzzing whenever you see me post.

Wear it.

:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

Post by **spot** » Tue May 27, 2008 4:32 pm

valerie;875850 wrote: :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

How very American of you. It's that "if I pretend I came out well then I came out well" syndrome, the one which plain ignores reality.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue May 27, 2008 4:37 pm

spot;875854 wrote: How very American of you. It's that "if I pretend I came out well then I came out well" syndrome, the one which plain ignores reality.

Rather stereotypical...

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Tue May 27, 2008 4:59 pm

spot;875854 wrote: How very American of you. It's that "if I pretend I came out well then I came out well" syndrome, the one which plain ignores reality.

Yeah, and I know just how much you love us Americans. :rolleyes:

Don't kid yourself that I care a fig about how you think I came out,

'cause I sure don't.

You're just jacked because you know as you sit there that I see

right through you, and have for a looooong time.

Toodles!

:yh_giggle

Post by **spot** » Tue May 27, 2008 5:01 pm

K.Snyder;875856 wrote: Rather stereotypical...

It's extrapolation. RJ does just the same thing.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue May 27, 2008 5:13 pm

spot;875860 wrote: It's extrapolation. RJ does just the same thing.

Yes but I wouldn't hold the practices in which the government partake in to be correlative to your use of the word "Americans"...

I wouldn't necessarily take what you've said personally, but I do find it unjustifiably inaccurate pertaining to my own virtue and it's bearing on my being American...

Post by **spot** » Tue May 27, 2008 5:38 pm

K.Snyder;875861 wrote: I wouldn't necessarily take what you've said personally, but I do find it unjustifiably inaccurate pertaining to my own virtue and it's bearing on my being American...

As you said, it's stereotyping. I'd not dream of thinking it applies to all Americans. I've never seen it done by anyone but Americans, that's the basis of my "how very American of you" comment. It's an odd act since the only mind it affects is the speaker's. It's a pitiable state of affairs if this nonsensical concept of self-validation actually demands such levels of personal deception in order to keep a person smug at the cost of being aware. There it is though, on the same level as I know I am so what are you. Ann Coulter reeks of it,.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Tue May 27, 2008 5:39 pm

Spot, you have no case.

It seems every time someone, usually me, posts about honor killing, you bring up the same tired refrain.

And now you are calling me a bigot.

You certainly do a lot of labeling of me. Yet you never really quite come out and say what you really think.

This is why I stopped posting so much here. There can be no intelligent discussion, only bickering and offensive labeling in the guise of devil's advocacy.

Post by **spot** » Tue May 27, 2008 5:43 pm

RedGlitter;875869 wrote: Spot, you have no case.

It seems every time someone, usually me, posts about honor killing, you bring up the same tired refrain.

And now you are calling me a bigot.

You certainly do a lot of labeling of me. Yet you never really quite come out and say what you really think.

This is why I stopped posting so much here. There can be no intelligent discussion, only bickering and offensive labeling in the guise of devil's advocacy.

It's your selective choice of posts, not mine. It's your thread, you're the one who feels that an honour killing in Germany needs this exposure. Do you consider the murder of strangers more socially acceptable than the murder of relatives, or have you some alternative reason for zeroing in on this particular news item.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Tue May 27, 2008 5:50 pm

It's your thread, you're the one who feels that an honour killing in Germany needs this exposure.

And you don't? Why not? I would think this would be as offensive to you as anyone else. Am I mistaken?

I posted this for discussion. Not nitpicking and I won't be privy to that anymore. If you'd like to discuss it go ahead, otherwise, since it *is* my thread, please let someone else have a turn. Maybe they'd like to bring up something that pertains to the topic. Thanks.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue May 27, 2008 5:51 pm

spot;875868 wrote: As you said, it's stereotyping. I'd not dream of thinking it applies to all Americans. I've never seen it done by anyone but Americans, that's the basis of my "how very American of you" comment. It's an odd act since the only mind it affects is the speaker's. It's a pitiable state of affairs if this nonsensical concept of self-validation actually demands such levels of personal deception in order to keep a person smug at the cost of being aware. There it is though, on the same level as I know I am so what are you. Ann Coulter reeks of it,.

Surely you're not confusing self pride with conceit...

Post by **spot** » Tue May 27, 2008 6:01 pm

RedGlitter;875873 wrote: And you don't? Why not? I would think this would be as offensive to you as anyone else. Am I mistaken?You're the one who keeps dragging it back into play time after time - "every time someone, usually me, posts about honor killing, you bring up the same tired refrain", you wrote. This response isn't a tired refrain, it's a different question. I always put a different question each time you do it, and you never bother to even notice that I've asked something. Do you consider the murder of strangers more socially acceptable than the murder of relatives? It's a real question, it's not tired or old, I've never asked it before. It's to do with why you're so obsessed with Islam and why you obsessively denigrate it.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Tue May 27, 2008 6:13 pm

Islamic Families believe in "Honor" Killing.

The brother killed his sister in a Parking Lot !! of McDonalds..

So what were their beliefs again?

Are they adapting to Western Culture ? NO

Patsy

Post by **spot** » Tue May 27, 2008 6:25 pm

Patsy Warnick;875884 wrote: Islamic Families believe in "Honor" Killing.

The brother killed his sister in a Parking Lot !! of McDonalds..

So what were their beliefs again?

Are they adapting to Western Culture ? NO

Patsy

There's an interesting paragraph at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide#S ... prevent_it

It warns against dehumanization in which members of the dominant society perceive their potential victims as less than fully human: as “pagans,” “savages,” “uncouth barbarians,” “unbelievers,” “effete degenerates,” “ritual outlaws,” “racial inferiors,” “class antagonists,” “counterrevolutionaries,” and so on. Local and international leaders should condemn the use of hate speech and make it culturally unacceptable.

This incessant focus on a dreadful cultural inheritance in many societies as an attempt to alienate the whole of Islam from Western culture is, in my view, despicable. It's why I'm asking the reason for this continuing focus on this one small subset of news reports and inviting an answer to my initial question. So far I've had one reply, that murders of strangers are neither more nor less acceptable to society than the murders of family members. Why is nobody prepared to justify the idea that murdering a family member is worse?

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Tue May 27, 2008 6:29 pm

spot;875880 wrote: You're the one who keeps dragging it back into play time after time - "every time someone, usually me, posts about honor killing, you bring up the same tired refrain", you wrote. This response isn't a tired refrain, it's a different question. I always put a different question each time you do it, and you never bother to even notice that I've asked something. Do you consider the murder of strangers more socially acceptable than the murder of relatives? It's a real question, it's not tired or old, I've never asked it before. It's to do with why you're so obsessed with Islam and why you obsessively denigrate it.

Spot you must be confusing me with someone else. I do not and have not obsessively or otherwise denigrated Islam nor am I obsessed nor actually the least bit interested in it. If you're going to assign things to me, then get them right!

Post by **spot** » Tue May 27, 2008 6:30 pm

RedGlitter;875887 wrote: Spot you must be confusing me with someone else. I do not and have not obsessively or otherwise denigrated Islam nor am I obsessed nor actually the least bit interested in it. If you're going to assign things to me, then get them right!

"every time someone, usually me, posts about honor killing"...

Either your first claim's right or your second, but they can't both be.

Post by **spot** » Tue May 27, 2008 6:35 pm

Can we come back into the bounds of reality and note that a requirement of membership of the European Union is the abandonment of capital punishment, please? Both lynching and public executions are ideas whose time has ended.