Baptism

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:29 pm

Baptism must have been discussed before but I don't recall it.

I was sprinkled when I was 8 years old, emersed when I was 32 and I was baptized in the Jordan River in Israel when I was over 50. What if I want to do it again? Did one of them save me? They were all done by clergy, what if they hadn't been? Could I baptize myself?

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:43 pm

In mainstream Catholic and Anglican Christian churches it is customary to remember and renew baptismal promises on Easter Eve, as preparation for the celebration of Christ's resurrection in the Easter Sunday rituals. This seems to hark back to the fact that the early Church did actual baptisms at that time. As for the sacrament of Holy Baptism itself, it's my understanding that it is effective - once and for all - the first time administered. And it can be administered by anyone of good intent, not just a priest.

weber · Post by **weber** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:59 pm

AussiePam wrote: In mainstream Catholic and Anglican Christian churches it is customary to remember and renew baptismal promises on Easter Eve, as preparation for the celebration of Christ's resurrection in the Easter Sunday rituals. This seems to hark back to the fact that the early Church did actual baptisms at that time. As for the sacrament of Holy Baptism itself, it's my understanding that it is effective - once and for all - the first time administered. And it can be administered by anyone of good intent, not just a priest.

Waaaah Clint

I was baptised only once. I'm feeling left out here

But as Aussie said, I renew my baptismal promises every Easter and it is a bit like being baptised over:yh_whistl

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:28 pm

weber wrote: Waaaah Clint

I was baptised only once. I'm feeling left out here

But as Aussie said, I renew my baptismal promises every Easter and it is a bit like being baptised over:yh_whistl
Don't feel left out. The Jordan River was very cold.

I'd do it again though...if I was spiritually ready.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:35 pm

AussiePam wrote: In mainstream Catholic and Anglican Christian churches it is customary to remember and renew baptismal promises on Easter Eve, as preparation for the celebration of Christ's resurrection in the Easter Sunday rituals. This seems to hark back to the fact that the early Church did actual baptisms at that time. As for the sacrament of Holy Baptism itself, it's my understanding that it is effective - once and for all - the first time administered. And it can be administered by anyone of good intent, not just a priest.
That's interesting. I guess I didn't even realize they made promises at the time of baptism. It makes sense though. Baptism being used for the begining of a Priests ministry long before the incarnation of Christ would probably have been accompanied by some promises.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:23 pm

When your baptised do you receive a document/certificate any more??

It use to be a elaborate document.? I really don't know.??

I remember seeing mine in my parents paper work, '50's, where it is now ??

Patsy

skeeter2 · Post by **skeeter2** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:52 am

the answer to this is in Acts 19......

good to see you back in here, Clint.

skeeter2 · Post by **skeeter2** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:07 am

Clint wrote: Baptism must have been discussed before but I don't recall it.

I was sprinkled when I was 8 years old, emersed when I was 32 and I was baptized in the Jordan River in Israel when I was over 50. What if I want to do it again? Did one of them save me? They were all done by clergy, what if they hadn't been? Could I baptize myself?

in some churches..you are sprinkled, or poured when an infant and the god-parents and parents take an oath to raise you in the admonition of the Lord and then a few years later you are instructed for two or three years in the Bible in what is known as Catachism..which at the end is a sort of graduation when you are quizzed in front of the church with questions by the Pastor and the church board in any question that comes from the entire Bible and the confirmee had better know the answer to become a member of the church and recieve communion...at that time the church takes that person into the congregation as a full voting member assuming that they have learned to use the Bible and look up answers to questions that arise and know why they were baptized years before and accept the Bible as inspired and written by the Holy Spirit..answers to ALL questions are in the Bibles' pages...you just have to know where to find them and believe them as the inspired word of GOD...

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:12 am

Patsy Warnick wrote: When your baptised do you receive a document/certificate any more??

It use to be a elaborate document.? I really don't know.??

I remember seeing mine in my parents paper work, '50's, where it is now ??

Patsy
From what I've seen most churches still give out a nice looking certificate. I'm collecting them.:wah:

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:22 am

skeeter2 wrote: in some churches..you are sprinkled, or poured when an infant and the god-parents and parents take an oath to raise you in the admonition of the Lord and then a few years later you are instructed for two or three years in the Bible in what is known as Catachism..which at the end is a sort of graduation when you are quizzed in front of the church with questions by the Pastor and the church board in any question that comes from the entire Bible and the confirmee had better know the answer to become a member of the church and recieve communion...at that time the church takes that person into the congregation as a full voting member assuming that they have learned to use the Bible and look up answers to questions that arise and know why they were baptized years before and accept the Bible as inspired and written by the Holy Spirit..answers to ALL questions are in the Bibles' pages...you just have to know where to find them and believe them as the inspired word of GOD...

Skeeter2, you must be the one and only Skeeter. Good to see you here too.

I remember going through the whole process you just described. IMO it was a great way to do things. It was as close to a barmitzva as Christians get and closer to what Jesus probably did than what many organizations do today. I would say another baptism at the time of conirmation would make it even more meaningful.

Many of our traditions today forget to bring a child out of childhood and into adulthood in any way they can identify with.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:29 am

Clint wrote: Baptism must have been discussed before but I don't recall it.

I was sprinkled when I was 8 years old, emersed when I was 32 and I was baptized in the Jordan River in Israel when I was over 50. What if I want to do it again? Did one of them save me? They were all done by clergy, what if they hadn't been? Could I baptize myself?In my backslid heathen opinion - as worthy and useless as anyone else's here - the physical baptism is irrellavent as a behavioral rite. It's the spiritual baptism that matters. No clergy is required for your access to God. No man may come to the Father but through Christ.

The Baptism described in Acts 19 (I looked it up) was not of a physical act, but a spiritual one.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi Skeeter! Good to see you back as well. *for those who don't know, I got off on the worst foot possible with Skeeter.

Water under the bridge, I hope.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:19 am

Accountable wrote: In my backslid heathen opinion - as worthy and useless as anyone else's here - the physical baptism is irrellavent as a behavioral rite. It's the spiritual baptism that matters. No clergy is required for your access to God. No man may come to the Father but through Christ.

The Baptism described in Acts 19 (I looked it up) was not of a physical act, but a spiritual one.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi Skeeter! Good to see you back as well. *for those who don't know, I got off on the worst foot possible with Skeeter.

Water under the bridge, I hope.
That's why I like you. You get right into the meat of things.

I agree. No clergy is necessary. Actually, as I understand it the mikva (baptism) at the time of Jesus was actually done by the person making an outward statement of an inward condition. He probably wasn't touched by anyone while he was doing it. John the Baptist was the officiating Priest who wittnessed what he did. It was the beginning of his priesthood. He was cleaning (not that he needed it) himself and stating he was emersed in the One he was to serve along with the duties it intailed.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:35 pm

Baptism has a long history behind it.

First of all baptism was to be done in moving (living water) and not still water. Thus baptism in the Jordan was in moving water. The idea of sprinkling or pouring water over the head was also practised by the early church as a convenience in a land where water was scarce. Since it was being poured over the head it was moving or living water.

My understanding is that anyone can perform a baptism as long as the intent is there.

There has been much debate over the centuries as to whether or not baptism has any value other than symbolic. Jesus did say that we had to be baptized by both water and the Spirit. I will have to find that quote.

The early church believed that baptism brought about salvation, being called in the Bible the baptism of salvation. John's baptism was repeatable. He believed that it was a cleansing and could be repeated as often as necessary. ("The Cave of John the Baptist" by Shimon Gibson).

As I said above there has been much debate over the meaning of the ritual. In the Anglican Church we see it as a salvific event and a welcoming of the individual into the family of God.

BTW there is evidence that both adult and child baptism was practised even by the Apostles. The source for that I will have to again search out.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:40 pm

Many traditions baptize infants. Some believe it saves and a child not baptized is lost. Others see it as a way to bring them into the fold as Skeeter explained.

I'm not aware of an account of infant or child baptism at the time Jesus was baptized. If there is, it would be interesting to know if it was an accepted practice or just an account of something that happened.

An adult 2,000 years ago is called a child today. We tend to keep lowering the bar of accountability and that means the age at which a child becomes an adult keeps getting older.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:33 am

As a rite, I think baptism is very important. Any rite of passage to is critical to really nail the importance of the accomplishment it celebrates. When I was baptised at 10 years old, I was overwhelmed with the feeling of joining a body, something larger than myself. I don't think it would have had such a lasting impact if I had not experienced such a public statement of faith.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:19 am

Clint wrote: I was sprinkled when I was 8 years old, emersed when I was 32 and I was baptized in the Jordan River in Israel when I was over 50.

I had no idea that it could be done several times.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:59 pm

Accountable;440093 wrote: As a rite, I think baptism is very important. Any rite of passage to is critical to really nail the importance of the accomplishment it celebrates. When I was baptised at 10 years old, I was overwhelmed with the feeling of joining a body, something larger than myself. I don't think it would have had such a lasting impact if I had not experienced such a public statement of faith.

Is that not the function of Confirmation in churches that have infant baptism?

Might I propose a hypothesis?

When the rate of infant mortality is high the tendancy is to baptise newborn children into the church as early as possible so that they can have a Christian burial.

Now that the infant mortality rate has dropped the tendancy is towards baptism as a coming of age - tempered by the inertia of tradition.

Opinions?

Bez · Post by **Bez** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:12 pm

Patsy Warnick;437146 wrote: When your baptised do you receive a document/certificate any more??

It use to be a elaborate document.? I really don't know.??

I remember seeing mine in my parents paper work, '50's, where it is now ??

Patsy

We do recieve certificates of some sort in the Church of England.

My niece and Grandson have recently been Baptised and I was interested in the 'Easter Connection' ....the use of Paschal Candle to light individual Baptism Candles that the children kept. I can't remember this when my own children were baptised /Christened.

I have a small certificate that was given to me when I was 'Confirmed' as a teenager.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:14 pm

Clint:-6

I have read where there is evidence that the apostles performed infant Baptism. I will see if I can find that reference again and post it.

Shalom

Ted:-6

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:24 pm

I never felt good about religion...................

I had Emily NAMED in from of a congregation of spiritual people..........They always knew their belief was good and so she was covered for many religions.

It was amazing............A guitar artist I had always respected JUST HAPPENED to be playing during Emily's NAMING ceremony at the Unitarian Church..................GO ****ING FIGURE...............

Life gets twisted for us all................and bent to humor..............

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:37 pm

nvalleyvee:-6

That sounds wonderful.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:58 pm

Bill Sikes;440183 wrote: I had no idea that it could be done several times.

Our Rabbi/Pastor does baptisms/mikvehs in the river once a year. Each year, after he has assisted the others, he does a mikveh himself. He says it is a cleansing in preparation for another year of service .

Gannet101 · Post by **Gannet101** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:08 am

Clint;437081 wrote: Baptism must have been discussed before but I don't recall it.

I was sprinkled when I was 8 years old, emersed when I was 32 and I was baptized in the Jordan River in Israel when I was over 50. What if I want to do it again? Did one of them save me? They were all done by clergy, what if they hadn't been? Could I baptize myself?

The baptism itself worked the first time. You just have to believe it.

Just like, if you take the Lord's supper worthily, or if you take it unworthily, it is still the body and blood of Christ, whether you believed it or not. Baptism too is still baptism whether you believed it or not, whether you were conscious or not (for infants), the SACRAMENT still holds its value, but its benefits to you come by faith in it. Your first baptism worked, believe in that one, chalk the other 2 up as mistakes.

If you have any other questions about baptism, review the large catechism of Martin Luther, it has some wonderful insights. I've posted them below since most people are lazy...

XIII.

Part Fourth

Of Baptism.

__________

We have now finished the three chief parts of the common Christian doctrine. Besides these we have yet to speak of our two Sacraments instituted by Christ, of which also every Christian ought to have at least an ordinary, brief instruction, because without them there can be no Christian; although, alas! hitherto no instruction concerning them has been given. But, in the first place, we take up Baptism, by which we are first received into the Christian Church. However, in order that it may be readily understood we will treat of it in an orderly manner, and keep only to that which it is necessary for us to know. For how it is to be maintained and defended against heretics and sects we will commend to the learned.

In the first place, we must above all things know well the words upon which Baptism is founded, and to which everything refers that is to be said on the subject, namely, where the Lord Christ speaks in the last chapter of Matthew, v. 19:

Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Likewise in St. Mark, the last chapter, v. 16:

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

In these words you must note, in the first place, that here stand God's commandment and institution, lest we doubt that Baptism is divine, not devised nor invented by men. For as truly as I can say, No man has spun the Ten Commandments, the Creed, and the Lord's Prayer out of his head, but they are revealed and given by God Himself, so also I can boast that Baptism is no human trifle, but instituted by God Himself, moreover, that it is most solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we cannot be saved, lest any one regard it as a trifling matter, like putting on a new red coat. For it is of the greatest importance that we esteem Baptism excellent, glorious, and exalted, for which we contend and fight chiefly, because the world is now so full of sects clamoring that Baptism is an external thing, and that external things are of no benefit. But let it be ever so much an external thing here stand God's Word and command which institute, establish, and confirm Baptism. But what God institutes and commands cannot be a vain, but must be a most precious thing, though in appearance it were of less value than a straw. If hitherto people could consider it a great thing when the Pope with his letters and bulls dispensed indulgences and confirmed altars and churches, solely because of the letters and seals, we ought to esteem Baptism much more highly and more precious, because God has commanded it, and, besides, it is performed in His name. For these are the words, Go ye baptize; however, not in your name, but in the name of God.

For to be baptized in the name of God is to be baptized not by men, but by God Himself. Therefore although it is performed by human hands, it is nevertheless truly God's own work. From this fact every one may himself readily infer that it is a far higher work than any work performed by a man or a saint. For what work greater than the work of God can we do?

But here the devil is busy to delude us with false appearances, and lead us away from the work of God to our own works. For there is a much more splendid appearance when a Carthusian does many great and difficult works and we all think much more of that which we do and merit ourselves. But the Scriptures teach thus: Even though we collect in one mass the works of all the monks, however splendidly they may shine, they would not be as noble and good as if God should pick up a straw. Why? Because the person is nobler and better. Here, then, we must not estimate the person according to the works, but the works according to the person, from whom they must derive their nobility. But insane reason will not regard this, and because Baptism does not shine like the works which we do, it is to be esteemed as nothing.

From this now learn a proper understanding of the subject, and how to answer the question what Baptism is, namely thus, that it is not mere ordinary water, but water comprehended in God's Word and command, and sanctified thereby, so that it is nothing else than a divine water; not that the water in itself is nobler than other water, but that God's Word and command are added.

Therefore it is pure wickedness and blasphemy of the devil that now our new spirits, to mock at Baptism, omit from it God's Word and institution, and look upon it in no other way than as water which is taken from the well, and then blather and say: How is a handful of water to help the soul? Aye, my friend, who does not know that water is water if tearing things asunder is what we are after? But how dare you thus interfere with God's order, and tear away the most precious treasure with which God has connected and enclosed it, and which He will not have separated? For the kernel in the water is God's Word or command and the name of God which is a treasure greater and nobler than heaven and earth.

Comprehend the difference, then, that Baptism is quite another thing than all other water; not on account of the natural quality, but because something more noble is here added; for God Himself stakes His honor His power and might on it. Therefore it is not only natural water, but a divine, heavenly, holy, and blessed water, and in whatever other terms we can praise it, -- all on account of the Word, which is a heavenly, holy Word, that no one can sufficiently extol, for it has, and is able to do, all that God is and can do [since it has all the virtue and power of God comprised in it]. Hence also it derives its essence as a Sacrament, as St. Augustine also taught: Aocedat verbum ad elementum et fit sacramentum. That is, when the Word is joined to the element or natural substance, it becomes a Sacrament, that is, a holy and divine matter and sign.

Therefore we always teach that the Sacraments and all external things which God ordains and institutes should not be regarded according to the coarse, external mask, as we regard the shell of a nut, but as the Word of God is included therein. For thus we also speak of the parental estate and of civil government. If we propose to regard them in as far as they have noses, eyes, skin, and hair flesh and bones, they look like Turks and heathen, and some one might start up and say: Why should I esteem them more than others? But because the commandment is added: Honor thy father and thy mother, I behold a different man, adorned and clothed with the majesty and glory of God. The commandment (I say) is the chain of gold about his neck, yea, the crown upon his head which shows to me how and why one must honor this flesh and blood.

Thus, and much more even, you must honor Baptism and esteem it glorious on account of the Word, since He Himself has honored it both by words and deeds; moreover, confirmed it with miracles from heaven. For do you think it was a jest that, when Christ was baptized, the heavens were opened and the Holy Ghost descended visibly, and everything was divine glory and majesty?

Therefore I exhort again that these two the water and the Word, by no means be separated from one another and parted. For if the Word is separated from it, the water is the same as that with which the servant cooks, and may indeed be called a bath-keeper's baptism. But when it is added, as God has ordained, it is a Sacrament, and is called Christ-baptism. Let this be the first part regarding the essence and dignity of the holy Sacrament.

In the second place, since we know now what Baptism is, and how it is to be regarded, we must also learn why and for what purpose it is instituted; that is, what it profits, gives and works. And this also we cannot discern better than from the words of Christ above quoted: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Therefore state it most simply thus, that the power, work, profit, fruit, and end of Baptism is this, namely, to save. For no one is baptized in order that he may become a prince, but, as the words declare, that he be saved. But to be saved. we know. is nothing else than to be delivered from sin, death, and the devil, and to enter into the kingdom of Christ, and to live with Him forever.

Here you see again how highly and precious we should esteem Baptism, because in it we obtain such an unspeakable treasure, which also indicates sufficiently that it cannot be ordinary mere water. For mere water could not do such a thing, but the Word does it, and (as said above) the fact that the name of God is comprehended therein. But where the name of God is, there must be also life and salvation, that it may indeed be called a divine, blessed, fruitful, and gracious water; for by the Word such power is imparted to Baptism that it is a laver of regeneration, as St. Paul also calls it, Titus 3, 5.

But as our would-be wise, new spirits assert that faith alone saves, and that works and external things avail nothing, we answer: It is true, indeed, that nothing in us is of any avail but faith, as we shall hear still further. But these blind guides are unwilling to see this, namely, that faith must have something which it believes, that is, of which it takes hold, and upon which it stands and rests. Thus faith clings to the water, and believes that it is Baptism, in which there is pure salvation and life; not through the water (as we have sufficiently stated), but through the fact that it is embodied in the Word and institution of God, and the name of God inheres in it. Now, if I believe this, what else is it than believing in God as in Him who has given and planted His Word into this ordinance, and proposes to us this external thing wherein we may apprehend such a treasure?

Now, they are so mad as to separate faith and that to which faith clings and is bound though it be something external. Yea, it shall and must be something external, that it may be apprehended by the senses, and understood and thereby be brought into the heart, as indeed the entire Gospel is an external, verbal preaching. In short, what God does and works in us He proposes to work through such external ordinances. Wherever, therefore, He speaks, yea, in whichever direction or by whatever means He speaks, thither faith must look, and to that it must hold. Now here we have the words: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. To what else do they refer than to Baptism, that is, to the water comprehended in God's ordinance? Hence it follows that whoever rejects Baptism rejects the Word of God, faith, and Christ, who directs us thither and binds us to Baptism.

In the third place since we have learned the great benefit and power of Baptism, let us see further who is the person that receives what Baptism gives and profits. This is again most beautifully and clearly expressed in the words: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. That is, faith alone makes the person worthy to receive profitably the saving, divine water. For, since these blessings are here presented and promised in the words in and with the water, they cannot be received in any other way than by believing them with the heart. Without faith it profits nothing, notwithstanding it is in itself a divine superabundant treasure. Therefore this single word (He that believeth) effects this much that it excludes and repels all works which we can do, in the opinion that we obtain and merit salvation by them. For it is determined that whatever is not faith avails nothing nor receives anything.

But if they say, as they are accustomed: Still Baptism is itself a work, and you say works are of no avail for salvation; what then, becomes of faith? Answer: Yes, our works, indeed, avail nothing for salvation; Baptism, however, is not our work, but God's (for, as was stated, you must put Christ-baptism far away from a bath-keeper's baptism). God's works, however, are saving and necessary for salvation, and do not exclude, but demand, faith; for without faith they could not be apprehended. For by suffering the water to be poured upon you, you have not yet received Baptism in such a manner that it benefits you anything; but it becomes beneficial to you if you have yourself baptized with the thought that this is according to God's command and ordinance, and besides in God's name, in order that you may receive in the water the promised salvation. Now, this the fist cannot do, nor the body; but the heart must believe it.

Thus you see plainly that there is here no work done by us, but a treasure which He gives us, and which faith apprehends; just as the Lord Jesus Christ upon the cross is not a work, but a treasure comprehended in the Word, and offered to us and received by faith. Therefore they do us violence by exclaiming against us as though we preach against faith; while we alone insist upon it as being of such necessity that without it nothing can be received nor enjoyed.

Thus we have these three parts which it is necessary to know concerning this Sacrament especially that the ordinance of God is to be held in all honor, which alone would be sufficient, though it be an entirely external thing like the commandment, Honor thy father and thy mother, which refers to bodily flesh and blood. Therein we regard not the flesh and blood, but the commandment of God in which they are comprehended, and on account of which the flesh is called father and mother; so also, though we had no more than these words, Go ye and baptize, etc., it would be necessary for us to accept and do it as the ordinance of God. Now there is here not only God's commandment and injunction, but also the promise, on account of which it is still far more glorious than whatever else God has commanded and ordained, and is, in short, so full of consolation and grace that heaven and earth cannot comprehend it. But it requires skill to believe this, for the treasure is not wanting, but this is wanting that men apprehend it and hold it firmly.

Therefore every Christian has enough in Baptism to learn and to practise all his life; for he has always enough to do to believe firmly what it promises and brings: victory over death and the devil, forgiveness of sin, the grace of God, the entire Christ, and the Holy Ghost with His gifts. In short, it is so transcendent that if timid nature could realize it, it might well doubt whether it could be true. For consider, if there were somewhere a physician who understood the art of saving men from dying, or, even though they died, of restoring them speedily to life, so that they would thereafter live forever, how the world would pour in money like snow and rain, so that because of the throng of the rich no one could find access! But here in Baptism there is brought free to every one's door such a treasure and medicine as utterly destroys death and preserves all men alive.

Thus we must regard Baptism and make it profitable to ourselves, that when our sins and conscience oppress us, we strengthen ourselves and take comfort and say: Nevertheless I am baptized; but if I am baptized, it is promised me that I shall be saved and have eternal life, both in soul and body. For that is the reason why these two things are done in Baptism namely, that the body, which can apprehend nothing but the water, is sprinkled, and, in addition, the word is spoken for the soul to apprehend. Now, since both, the water and the Word, are one Baptism, therefore body and soul must be saved and live forever: the soul through the Word which it believes, but the body because it is united with the soul and also apprehends Baptism as it is able to apprehend it. We have, therefore, no greater jewel in body and soul, for by it we are made holy and are saved, which no other kind of life, no work upon earth, can attain.

Let this suffice respecting the nature, blessing, and use of Baptism, for it answers the present purpose.

Gannet101 · Post by **Gannet101** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:11 am

One key point in his doctrine is that it is the WORD combined with the ELEMENTS that make baptism a sacrament. Where the word is present, the elements are blessed and sanctified. The baby is dipped not only into the water, but into the Word mixed with the water. Later, once you understand that you have been baptized, you believe in that baptism which occurred, which was water+word, and effectual by the grace of God.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:18 pm

It's been almost 50 years since I studied the Lutheran Catechism. With all due respect, I'll bet it's at least 50 before I study a Catechism again. The greater truths are beyond the writings of man and Baptism is beyond the writings of one Catholic Priest called Luther.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:23 am

Good to see you again, Clint!

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:47 pm

It would seem to me that as a Christian what ultimately counts is that we live in a developing, transforming relationship with the risen Lord.

This says absolutely nothing whatsoever about members of other faiths.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:20 pm

Accountable;671567 wrote: Good to see you again, Clint!

Good to see you too!

Gannet101 · Post by **Gannet101** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:32 am

Clint;671483 wrote: It's been almost 50 years since I studied the Lutheran Catechism. With all due respect, I'll bet it's at least 50 before I study a Catechism again. The greater truths are beyond the writings of man and Baptism is beyond the writings of one Catholic Priest called Luther.

does that mean you shut your ears and eyes to it?

Gannet101 · Post by **Gannet101** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:36 am

Ted;672063 wrote: It would seem to me that as a Christian what ultimately counts is that we live in a developing, transforming relationship with the risen Lord.

This says absolutely nothing whatsoever about members of other faiths.

Shalom

Ted:-6

The Bible has plenty to say about false prophets and false gods, none of it good. Either there's an absolute truth, and those who speak against it are liars, or there is no truth, and no god, and when you die its all over kaput end of story. If there's 1 God, and he's delivered 1 message to be believed or doubted, then other faiths are necessarily wrong.

Jer 27:9 Therefore hearken not ye to your prophets, nor to your diviners, nor to your dreamers, nor to your enchanters, nor to your sorcerers, which speak unto you, saying, Ye shall not serve the king of Babylon:

Jer 27:10 For they prophesy a lie unto you, to remove you far from your land; and that I should drive you out, and ye should perish.

Some prophets are from God, some are not. If someone heeds the words of a false prophet, they will be led astray and their faith is worthless as it pertains to eternal life.

Faith is good, but faith is about the OBJECT of your faith. You can have strong faith in a block of wood, but if you cry out in time of trouble for it to deliver you, it will just sit there like a mute idol and you'll perish. But if your object of faith is the living God and his Son, and you call out for help in time of need, God will deliver you. He is a jealous God, and there is none but him.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:55 am

Gannet101;675497 wrote: does that mean you shut your ears and eyes to it?

Yes. Luther was right about a lot of things but he was also a product of Constantine's warped religion and creeds of men.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:38 pm

Gannet:-6

In the Bible in Num. 31 God also appears to encourage and condone war crimes. Interesting, isn't it.

If we look at Micah 6:8 we are clearly told what God expects of us: "To do justice, love kindness and walk humbly with God. This is also echoed in Matt. 25: 31ff. In Matt. 22 we are also told that all of the law and all of the oracles of the prophets hinge on one word, "LOVE". If we follow what is in these quotes we are indeed doing what God requires of us.

Earlier you spoke of following the law. Jesus came to fulfill the law. Paul in Galations is quite clear that we no longer live under the law but under the grace of God. Herein is the problem. Many Christians take a few verses such as John 3:16 and ignore the others. Another example of picking and choosing.

I will repeat what I have already said. If we live in a developing transforming relationship with the risen Christ that is all we need to do. Such a life leads to justice and kindness and walking humbly with the sacred or divine.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:05 pm

Clint;437081 wrote: Baptism must have been discussed before but I don't recall it.

I was sprinkled when I was 8 years old, emersed when I was 32 and I was baptized in the Jordan River in Israel when I was over 50. What if I want to do it again? Did one of them save me? They were all done by clergy, what if they hadn't been? Could I baptize myself?

Being of the Southern Baptist faith let me say that a lot of us don't believe you are saved by baptism. Our beliefs are that you are saved first by the power of the Holy Spirit, then after you are saved you join the membership of the church and the baptism ceremony is just a public profession of your faith. Therefore we don't baptize infants. You can only be baptized when you are old enough to understand the concept and make the decision for yourself. I was baptized at around 10 years old. We have a dedication ceremony for babies the parents and grandparents go to the front of the church with the baby and basically promise to raise the child in the way God would want them to. I did this with my baby on mothers day.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:15 pm

Hope:-6

Yet John the Baptist spoke of the baptism of repentance.

Baptism has a very long history and there is some evidence that the baptism of children goes back to the apostles themselves. "A History of Christianity", Paul Johnston.

According to Shimon Gibson in "The Cave of John the Baptist" baptism was a ritual of cleansing and washing the body clean of sin if you will. John the Baptist believed it had to be done in moving water and not still water and that is why he chose the Jordan. Moving water was a sign of life. Baptism by immersion and sprinkling goes back to John the Baptist himself.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:25 pm

Hope6;786036 wrote: Being of the Southern Baptist faith let me say that a lot of us don't believe you are saved by baptism. Our beliefs are that you are saved first by the power of the Holy Spirit, then after you are saved you join the membership of the church and the baptism ceremony is just a public profession of your faith. Therefore we don't baptize infants. You can only be baptized when you are old enough to understand the concept and make the decision for yourself. I was baptized at around 10 years old. We have a dedication ceremony for babies the parents and grandparents go to the front of the church with the baby and basically promise to raise the child in the way God would want them to. I did this with my baby on mothers day.

My understanding has always been that Baptism is a rite of induction into the body of the Church.

Given the rates of child mortality and the fact that, in the old days, they believed that unless you were a member of the Church you went straight to Hell, it was vital for all infants to be Baptised as early as possible. This led to the concept of Godparents who would guide you in your growth within the Church should your true parents die (also a common occurrence).

As I agree that you should only become a member of a Church when you are old enough to make the decision yourself and that not being a member of any particular Church does not bar you from entering Heaven, I totally agree that Baptism should not be done until mental maturity (preferably post pubescence) and should replace the traditional Confirmation ceremony.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:47 pm

"In the gospels we hear that John came to the 'wilderness' region of the lower Jordan River and 'preached the baptism of repentance unto the remission of sins' (Mark 1:4; cf. Luke 3:3" pg 176, "The Cave of John the Baptist", Shimon Gibson.

This is of course and issue that has been debated for some 2000 years. It would appear that the early church believed that it was a "baptism of repentance unto the remission of sins".

Some churches today still accept it as such and thus baptize infants which admits them to the church. This is followed later on by confirmation.

Others such as the Baptists take the other view.

What ultimately matters is that one lives in a developing, transforming relationship with God.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:34 pm

We also believe that until you reach that age of accountability where you are able to decide right from wrong that you are not responsible for your sins. So no babies would be going to hell anyway. A lot of people think that age is around 8 years old but I think it depends on the person.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:41 pm

BH:-6

That raises two questions.

Sin?

Hell?

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:58 pm

BH:-6

Having checked the "New Dictionary of Theology" ed by Ferguson, Weight and Packer I quote "Since his [John's] baptism was a conversion-baptism it was a once for all, in distinction from the repeated washings of the Qumran community." pg 70

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:35 pm

jester:-6

Here again you are ignoring what the Bible says in favour of what you want it to say. In fact you are adding to the Bible what is not there.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:51 am

No physical behavior will get you into heaven. The only baptism that matters is the spiritual cleansing. No ritual will pay your admission, nor will it keep you out.

ETA: Btw, Southern Baptist raised, with a bit o' United Methodist mixed in just before adulthood.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:52 am

Jester;786102 wrote: Ditto Sister!

Im with you 100%!

Ted;786110 wrote: jester:-6

Here again you are ignoring what the Bible says in favour of what you want it to say. In fact you are adding to the Bible what is not there.

Shalom

Ted:-6
:-2

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:42 pm

Gannet:-6

I have to strongly disagree with your comments on one faith only. There is only one absolute and that is the creator whom is called by many names. This creator is worshiped by all of the world's great faiths.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:44 pm

Acc:-6

I have to disagree with you. You are speaking of things beyond the understanding of man. God will be merciful to whom He/She will be merciful. We are not permitted to judge nor are we capable of telling God what to do.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:46 pm

jester:-6

That is a load of nonsense based on a complete lack of understanding and knowledge. It is no bloody wonder that Christianity has a bad name in many places.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:07 pm

jester:-6

No, it is you who are wrong. You cannot see the forest for the trees. A good deal of the Christianity practiced in the western world today is the illegitimate child of the reformation. It does not go back to the life or teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.

This whole idea that man is somehow evil because of one man is pure nonsense. It is simply not true. It is unhealthy garbage. If I had to believe as you believe I would become an Buddhist or atheist.

Jesus taught justice and compassion. It comes from Micah 6:8, Isaiah 58, Matt. 22:34ff., Matt 25 31ff. Those are the basic tenets on which all of the world's great faiths were founded.

You remind me of the Ayatollah Khomeini who openly admitted that he had only ever read one book in his life; the Qur'an. That is a very good example . . ..

Shalom

Ted:-6