I always felt sorry for poor old Joseph. The Bible and history really short changed this guy.
Here you have a man who was to be married to his young bride Mary, who turns out to be pregnant before they even marry, (in a day when she probably would have been stoned to death for it). Then he has to accept that this is a ‘miracle’ and his kid was going to be the messiah?
So he marries her and heads off on a long journey bringing a pregnant woman through pretty much a desert on the back of a donkey. (Fun? Nothing I would try)
Then after the birth of his son, they need to flee to another land because his son’s life is in danger, leaving behind him everything he knew. He raises his son teaching him his skills of carpentry.
Now think about that, any of you fathers out there who spend time with your sons teaching them your trade or skills. The amount of time that they must have spent together, talking, laughing, learning arguing, and just hanging out. How much of Joseph’s opinions influenced Jesus in his later years?
Yet, we here nothing about him, who he was, what happened to him.
Mary gets the ‘Assumption’ into heaven, poor old Joseph doesn’t get a mention even when he died. Lazarus was brought back from the dead, but Joseph doesn’t, not a word. A great man, a great Father, and not even a mention of him.
I am with you Joseph…
Joseph: A great dad!
Joseph: A great dad!
mikeinie;657620 wrote: I always felt sorry for poor old Joseph. The Bible and history really short changed this guy.
Here you have a man who was to be married to his young bride Mary, who turns out to be pregnant before they even marry, (in a day when she probably would have been stoned to death for it). Then he has to accept that this is a ‘miracle’ and his kid was going to be the messiah?
So he marries her and heads off on a long journey bringing a pregnant woman through pretty much a desert on the back of a donkey. (Fun? Nothing I would try)
Then after the birth of his son, they need to flee to another land because his son’s life is in danger, leaving behind him everything he knew. He raises his son teaching him his skills of carpentry.
Now think about that, any of you fathers out there who spend time with your sons teaching them your trade or skills. The amount of time that they must have spent together, talking, laughing, learning arguing, and just hanging out. How much of Joseph’s opinions influenced Jesus in his later years?
Yet, we here nothing about him, who he was, what happened to him.
Mary gets the ‘Assumption’ into heaven, poor old Joseph doesn’t get a mention even when he died. Lazarus was brought back from the dead, but Joseph doesn’t, not a word. A great man, a great Father, and not even a mention of him.
I am with you Joseph…
You're assuming it's a true story rather than one made up. The whole story is ridiculous and yet anyone that points this out is expected not to say anything in case it offends someone's religious beliefs! It's about time that religious belief ceased being given special consideration. Respect, yes, but to have religions pontificating on how others should live their lives and what can and cannot be spoken of or what types of lifestyle are acceptable for others to follow is ridiculous in this day and age. Bigotry, sectarianism and intolerance belong in the dark ages along with their religious justification.
Here you have a man who was to be married to his young bride Mary, who turns out to be pregnant before they even marry, (in a day when she probably would have been stoned to death for it). Then he has to accept that this is a ‘miracle’ and his kid was going to be the messiah?
So he marries her and heads off on a long journey bringing a pregnant woman through pretty much a desert on the back of a donkey. (Fun? Nothing I would try)
Then after the birth of his son, they need to flee to another land because his son’s life is in danger, leaving behind him everything he knew. He raises his son teaching him his skills of carpentry.
Now think about that, any of you fathers out there who spend time with your sons teaching them your trade or skills. The amount of time that they must have spent together, talking, laughing, learning arguing, and just hanging out. How much of Joseph’s opinions influenced Jesus in his later years?
Yet, we here nothing about him, who he was, what happened to him.
Mary gets the ‘Assumption’ into heaven, poor old Joseph doesn’t get a mention even when he died. Lazarus was brought back from the dead, but Joseph doesn’t, not a word. A great man, a great Father, and not even a mention of him.
I am with you Joseph…
You're assuming it's a true story rather than one made up. The whole story is ridiculous and yet anyone that points this out is expected not to say anything in case it offends someone's religious beliefs! It's about time that religious belief ceased being given special consideration. Respect, yes, but to have religions pontificating on how others should live their lives and what can and cannot be spoken of or what types of lifestyle are acceptable for others to follow is ridiculous in this day and age. Bigotry, sectarianism and intolerance belong in the dark ages along with their religious justification.
-
WonderWendy3
- Posts: 12412
- Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:44 am
Joseph: A great dad!
magenta flame;657625 wrote: hhhmm I don't believe the assumption thingy, I'm afraid .
Joseph was not left out of the loop .............He was a good man even to the point where to save Mary from being stoned he planned to break the union off secretly. It was he that was given the dream and told not to be afraid, to marry Mary and it was he that was given the dream to flee to Egypt after the decree from herod that all boys under the age of two were to be slaughtered in Bethlahem.
The fact that he took Mary to Bethlehem in the first place was because he was also lawful. the census . In that day it would also would have been to put down any whispering about Mary and his Union. He was registering as a married man.
The part of the scripture entailing the early life of Jesus is highly condensed. But he had a good life and also fathered Joseph, Judas, Simon and james as well as daughters. In his day that's pretty darn blessed. He would also have been included in Jesus upbringing teaching him his own trade. nad the account of Jesus going missing and ending up at the temple only emphasizes that both Mary and Joseph taught him well.
Three cheers for Joseph and any man today that takes on an adopted child to save any woman from danger or humiliation.
Awesome thread! and how true it is. I always picture Joseph teaching Jesus carpentry, but there was so much more to the man. It would be nice if men were more like him in today's world, he was very dedicated to his family. I'm not saying that there aren't....just would be nice to see Men that truly love God and their families.
Joseph was not left out of the loop .............He was a good man even to the point where to save Mary from being stoned he planned to break the union off secretly. It was he that was given the dream and told not to be afraid, to marry Mary and it was he that was given the dream to flee to Egypt after the decree from herod that all boys under the age of two were to be slaughtered in Bethlahem.
The fact that he took Mary to Bethlehem in the first place was because he was also lawful. the census . In that day it would also would have been to put down any whispering about Mary and his Union. He was registering as a married man.
The part of the scripture entailing the early life of Jesus is highly condensed. But he had a good life and also fathered Joseph, Judas, Simon and james as well as daughters. In his day that's pretty darn blessed. He would also have been included in Jesus upbringing teaching him his own trade. nad the account of Jesus going missing and ending up at the temple only emphasizes that both Mary and Joseph taught him well.
Three cheers for Joseph and any man today that takes on an adopted child to save any woman from danger or humiliation.
Awesome thread! and how true it is. I always picture Joseph teaching Jesus carpentry, but there was so much more to the man. It would be nice if men were more like him in today's world, he was very dedicated to his family. I'm not saying that there aren't....just would be nice to see Men that truly love God and their families.
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WonderWendy3
- Posts: 12412
- Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:44 am
Joseph: A great dad!
Far Rider;658070 wrote: 
Oh man... hey bud, if years from now someone said hey there was this kid, kinda funny lookin he was born in XXX and he was raised in XXX and he used to post some wild stuff as GMC in a place called forum garden... he was a good old dude!
And then someone else came up and said 'nuh-uh, that was all a lie'
Does it make it a lie?
And furthermore, I'm gonna bash you a bit bud... (politely of course) Yer a good man, you speak up well for yourself and I often have to say in the back of my mind 'heck he's got a point'.. and usually you do.
But...
Why did you choose this thread to speak back?
This was about one single persons opinion about a person written about in the bible, it wasn't a challenge for others to believe it or else... it was just someone expressing their opinion about this person being a good father.
Shame on you bud, lighten up. Before your seen as one who pushes your sectarianism on others.
You preacher you!
:yh_clap :yh_clap Well said!! Exactly what I was thinking, decided not to comment, cause figured it would do no good.
Miss you around these here parts!! Good to see you!!:-4
Oh man... hey bud, if years from now someone said hey there was this kid, kinda funny lookin he was born in XXX and he was raised in XXX and he used to post some wild stuff as GMC in a place called forum garden... he was a good old dude!
And then someone else came up and said 'nuh-uh, that was all a lie'
Does it make it a lie?
And furthermore, I'm gonna bash you a bit bud... (politely of course) Yer a good man, you speak up well for yourself and I often have to say in the back of my mind 'heck he's got a point'.. and usually you do.
But...
Why did you choose this thread to speak back?
This was about one single persons opinion about a person written about in the bible, it wasn't a challenge for others to believe it or else... it was just someone expressing their opinion about this person being a good father.
Shame on you bud, lighten up. Before your seen as one who pushes your sectarianism on others.
You preacher you!
:yh_clap :yh_clap Well said!! Exactly what I was thinking, decided not to comment, cause figured it would do no good.
Miss you around these here parts!! Good to see you!!:-4
Joseph: A great dad!
Far Rider;658070 wrote:
Oh man... hey bud, if years from now someone said hey there was this kid, kinda funny lookin he was born in XXX and he was raised in XXX and he used to post some wild stuff as GMC in a place called forum garden... he was a good old dude!
And then someone else came up and said 'nuh-uh, that was all a lie'
Does it make it a lie?
And furthermore, I'm gonna bash you a bit bud... (politely of course) Yer a good man, you speak up well for yourself and I often have to say in the back of my mind 'heck he's got a point'.. and usually you do.
But...
Why did you choose this thread to speak back?
This was about one single persons opinion about a person written about in the bible, it wasn't a challenge for others to believe it or else... it was just someone expressing their opinion about this person being a good father.
Shame on you bud, lighten up. Before your seen as one who pushes your sectarianism on others.
You preacher you!
You're right. I shall butt out. My apologies to mikeinie if I gave offence.
I do enjoy arguing about religion even if we do just agree to disagree. Sometimes I can't resist the temptation to engage in discourse. Maybe we need a sub section under religion called agree to disagree but have fun arguing about it anyway.
Oh man... hey bud, if years from now someone said hey there was this kid, kinda funny lookin he was born in XXX and he was raised in XXX and he used to post some wild stuff as GMC in a place called forum garden... he was a good old dude!
And then someone else came up and said 'nuh-uh, that was all a lie'
Actually if you read it in the original version he was amazingly handsome. The story about him being funny looking was put in later to cheer up the ugly. This has let to him being confused with contemporary posters known as big ears and big nose, in fact they were three different individuals and not the three in one or trinity as some would believe.
Oh man... hey bud, if years from now someone said hey there was this kid, kinda funny lookin he was born in XXX and he was raised in XXX and he used to post some wild stuff as GMC in a place called forum garden... he was a good old dude!
And then someone else came up and said 'nuh-uh, that was all a lie'
Does it make it a lie?
And furthermore, I'm gonna bash you a bit bud... (politely of course) Yer a good man, you speak up well for yourself and I often have to say in the back of my mind 'heck he's got a point'.. and usually you do.
But...
Why did you choose this thread to speak back?
This was about one single persons opinion about a person written about in the bible, it wasn't a challenge for others to believe it or else... it was just someone expressing their opinion about this person being a good father.
Shame on you bud, lighten up. Before your seen as one who pushes your sectarianism on others.
You preacher you!
You're right. I shall butt out. My apologies to mikeinie if I gave offence.
I do enjoy arguing about religion even if we do just agree to disagree. Sometimes I can't resist the temptation to engage in discourse. Maybe we need a sub section under religion called agree to disagree but have fun arguing about it anyway.
Oh man... hey bud, if years from now someone said hey there was this kid, kinda funny lookin he was born in XXX and he was raised in XXX and he used to post some wild stuff as GMC in a place called forum garden... he was a good old dude!
And then someone else came up and said 'nuh-uh, that was all a lie'
Actually if you read it in the original version he was amazingly handsome. The story about him being funny looking was put in later to cheer up the ugly. This has let to him being confused with contemporary posters known as big ears and big nose, in fact they were three different individuals and not the three in one or trinity as some would believe.
Joseph: A great dad!
No offence was taken, I was not writing on the basis if the story is true or not, it was purely on the basis the story is there (belief is personal).
True or not, if you think of Joseph as the man depicted in the Bible, as a father to the man who had the greatest impact on humanity in history (again, not debating if you believe in the Christ or not, but historically Jesus existed and who more than anyone changed the course of religion), then Joseph the man was greatly understated in the Bible, and yet he holds all the attributes of a great dad. Teacher, provider, protector, good husband and goes often unnoticed.
Did he live to see how his son died? I wonder.
True or not, if you think of Joseph as the man depicted in the Bible, as a father to the man who had the greatest impact on humanity in history (again, not debating if you believe in the Christ or not, but historically Jesus existed and who more than anyone changed the course of religion), then Joseph the man was greatly understated in the Bible, and yet he holds all the attributes of a great dad. Teacher, provider, protector, good husband and goes often unnoticed.
Did he live to see how his son died? I wonder.
Joseph: A great dad!
The first problem I see is in the concept of truth and lie. A writing does not have to reflect actual history to be true. Metaphor can express truth as well. Consider Jesus being called the "lamb of God". We are not talking about "Mary had a little lamb".
The stories of Jesus birth are the creation of the evangelists designed to present truths about Jesus and not history. Ancient Hebrew people wrote their sacred texts in metaphor and used midrash as part of their style.
This in no way means that I do not appreciate the Christmas story. I wouldn't change it for anything. It is indeed a beautiful story full of truth. It simply is not historical.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The stories of Jesus birth are the creation of the evangelists designed to present truths about Jesus and not history. Ancient Hebrew people wrote their sacred texts in metaphor and used midrash as part of their style.
This in no way means that I do not appreciate the Christmas story. I wouldn't change it for anything. It is indeed a beautiful story full of truth. It simply is not historical.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Joseph: A great dad!
JAB:-6
The story as a whole is true. It teaches truth about Jesus of Nazareth. Rather than go through the story point by point it would be better to put it this way. Historically what do we know about Jesus? The answer is not much. There is little doubt among scholars that Jesus was indeed an historical human being. He may have been trained as a carpenter. He grew up to become an itinerant teacher and prophet. We know that he was born to a young girl named Mary and that his father may have been Joseph though that itself is a big question. He was crucified for being a renegade and a social disturber.
Things like the star, the three wise men, the virgin birth all come out of the Old Testament.. After Jesus death the evangelists, whomever they were, went back to the OT and wrote the story up that way. That is the nature of ancient midrash. This technique uses past events in explaining more recent events.
Another point is that we know nothing about Jesus beyond his birth until he began his ministry. 85% of the words in the NT that are attributed to Jesus are in fact words that the evangelists put into his mouth. However we do know the sayings that can be traced back to the historical Jesus. "The Authentic Gospel of Jesus', Geza Vermes, and "The Historical Jesus, the Life of a Mediterranean Peasant", John D. Crossan, "Jesus", Marcus Borg.
To show the nature of the use of metaphor we need only to look at the Exodus story which itself is metaphor. "From Literal to Literary", John Rowe Adams. It is the story of all of mankind. We are are enslaved by our false ego and through faith in God we are set free from that bondage and granted our promised land in the kingdom of God. Father Thomas Keating, Vancouver School of Theology, July 2007.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The story as a whole is true. It teaches truth about Jesus of Nazareth. Rather than go through the story point by point it would be better to put it this way. Historically what do we know about Jesus? The answer is not much. There is little doubt among scholars that Jesus was indeed an historical human being. He may have been trained as a carpenter. He grew up to become an itinerant teacher and prophet. We know that he was born to a young girl named Mary and that his father may have been Joseph though that itself is a big question. He was crucified for being a renegade and a social disturber.
Things like the star, the three wise men, the virgin birth all come out of the Old Testament.. After Jesus death the evangelists, whomever they were, went back to the OT and wrote the story up that way. That is the nature of ancient midrash. This technique uses past events in explaining more recent events.
Another point is that we know nothing about Jesus beyond his birth until he began his ministry. 85% of the words in the NT that are attributed to Jesus are in fact words that the evangelists put into his mouth. However we do know the sayings that can be traced back to the historical Jesus. "The Authentic Gospel of Jesus', Geza Vermes, and "The Historical Jesus, the Life of a Mediterranean Peasant", John D. Crossan, "Jesus", Marcus Borg.
To show the nature of the use of metaphor we need only to look at the Exodus story which itself is metaphor. "From Literal to Literary", John Rowe Adams. It is the story of all of mankind. We are are enslaved by our false ego and through faith in God we are set free from that bondage and granted our promised land in the kingdom of God. Father Thomas Keating, Vancouver School of Theology, July 2007.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Joseph: A great dad!
magenta:-6
It is absolutely not a cop out. The real cop out began about 400 years ago when the reformers decided that the Bible should be taken literally. The ancient Hebrews the authors of the books and their readers knew better. The cop out has carried on by those who are afraid of the truth and in fact do not want to understand the truth.
Read as metaphor and midrash the Bible contains far more than the literalists will ever grasp. The miss the real beauty of the stories and the great truths to be found therein.
Literalism came out of the reformation by folks who wanted certainty in this very difficult life. They wanted some form of contract in writing, signed, sealed and delivered. They did this because they did not trust in the Divine enough. They wanted concrete visible proof. That is indeed a lack of trust in the Divine.
Shalom
Ted:-6
It is absolutely not a cop out. The real cop out began about 400 years ago when the reformers decided that the Bible should be taken literally. The ancient Hebrews the authors of the books and their readers knew better. The cop out has carried on by those who are afraid of the truth and in fact do not want to understand the truth.
Read as metaphor and midrash the Bible contains far more than the literalists will ever grasp. The miss the real beauty of the stories and the great truths to be found therein.
Literalism came out of the reformation by folks who wanted certainty in this very difficult life. They wanted some form of contract in writing, signed, sealed and delivered. They did this because they did not trust in the Divine enough. They wanted concrete visible proof. That is indeed a lack of trust in the Divine.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Joseph: A great dad!
magenta:-6
We are not talking about one scholar. There are hundreds if not thousands who present the same points.
Shalom
Ted:-6
We are not talking about one scholar. There are hundreds if not thousands who present the same points.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Joseph: A great dad!
JAB:-6
The Birth of Jesus in Bethlehem comes from Micah 5:2.
The Wisemen come from Jeremiah 39:3, 13; Daniel 5:11; Psalm 72.
The star is from Num.24:17; Isaiah 60.
The flight to Egypt is from Gen. 37:5-11; Ex. 1:22 to 2:10; Hosea 11:13.
The "glory of the Lord" is from Num. 14,21; Ezekiel 43:2; Ex 33:18-22.
The idea of the killing of all the children under 2 is directly from the story of Moses being hidden in the basket.
The whole concept of Jesus being the Messiah can be found in Isaiah 9; Isaiah 7.
Lest one thinks I cannot support what I say.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Birth of Jesus in Bethlehem comes from Micah 5:2.
The Wisemen come from Jeremiah 39:3, 13; Daniel 5:11; Psalm 72.
The star is from Num.24:17; Isaiah 60.
The flight to Egypt is from Gen. 37:5-11; Ex. 1:22 to 2:10; Hosea 11:13.
The "glory of the Lord" is from Num. 14,21; Ezekiel 43:2; Ex 33:18-22.
The idea of the killing of all the children under 2 is directly from the story of Moses being hidden in the basket.
The whole concept of Jesus being the Messiah can be found in Isaiah 9; Isaiah 7.
Lest one thinks I cannot support what I say.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Joseph: A great dad!
Magenta:-6
You now have the list you asked for.
As far as my personal faith goes you have absolutely no idea.
Shalom
Ted:-6
You now have the list you asked for.
As far as my personal faith goes you have absolutely no idea.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Joseph: A great dad!
JAB:-6
Who are these eyewitnesses of whom you speak?
Shalom
Ted:-6
Who are these eyewitnesses of whom you speak?
Shalom
Ted:-6
Joseph: A great dad!
magenta:-6
I don't believe for one moment that you have a reading problem.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I don't believe for one moment that you have a reading problem.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Joseph: A great dad!
JAB:-6
Why do I accept what scholarship says?
First of all one has to understand the nature of the sacred writings, the era in which they were written, the culture of the day etc. Then we must look into the origin and history of the both the OT and NT.
Then we need to take into account our modern fund of knowledge as well as the work that God has seen fit to allow the scientists to make.
I am assuming the eyewitnesses of whom you speak are folks like Matthew, Mark etc. The fact of the matter is we do not know who wrote the gospels. They do know that it was not any of the apostles with the exception of Paul and some of the works attributed to him. Some of the works attributed to Paul were written after his death. This is part of the nature of sacred writings and the nature of the era. It was not an attempt to deceive but to add the weight of Paul's name to what they were saying.
The OT was finally put together around 600 BCE during the Babylonian exile. It was pulled together from some ancient documents but mostly oral tradition.
The problems facing the NT compilers was just as great. There were multiple hand made copies of each book. The scholars did not have the originals. Add to this the fact that there were some 400 000 variants among all of the documents and we cannot even be sure we have arrived at exact copies of the originals. Indeed probably not.
Then we add to the documents the changes that the scribes made during the copying of the documents; some by mistake and many were deliberate changes made for various theological reasons. "Misquoting Jesus", Bart D Ehrman. There are others as well. The works of Crossan, Borg, Spong, Anderson and many others are worth checking.
Our faith must not contradict the reality we see around us. Without getting into the usual waste of time over evolution, the whole issue is no longer in doubt by all reputable scientists and teachers.
With all of these problems the Bible is a book full of wisdom and the book through which God speaks to Christians as much as the Torah is for the Jews and the Qu'ran is for the Muslims etc.
Shalom
Ted
Why do I accept what scholarship says?
First of all one has to understand the nature of the sacred writings, the era in which they were written, the culture of the day etc. Then we must look into the origin and history of the both the OT and NT.
Then we need to take into account our modern fund of knowledge as well as the work that God has seen fit to allow the scientists to make.
I am assuming the eyewitnesses of whom you speak are folks like Matthew, Mark etc. The fact of the matter is we do not know who wrote the gospels. They do know that it was not any of the apostles with the exception of Paul and some of the works attributed to him. Some of the works attributed to Paul were written after his death. This is part of the nature of sacred writings and the nature of the era. It was not an attempt to deceive but to add the weight of Paul's name to what they were saying.
The OT was finally put together around 600 BCE during the Babylonian exile. It was pulled together from some ancient documents but mostly oral tradition.
The problems facing the NT compilers was just as great. There were multiple hand made copies of each book. The scholars did not have the originals. Add to this the fact that there were some 400 000 variants among all of the documents and we cannot even be sure we have arrived at exact copies of the originals. Indeed probably not.
Then we add to the documents the changes that the scribes made during the copying of the documents; some by mistake and many were deliberate changes made for various theological reasons. "Misquoting Jesus", Bart D Ehrman. There are others as well. The works of Crossan, Borg, Spong, Anderson and many others are worth checking.
Our faith must not contradict the reality we see around us. Without getting into the usual waste of time over evolution, the whole issue is no longer in doubt by all reputable scientists and teachers.
With all of these problems the Bible is a book full of wisdom and the book through which God speaks to Christians as much as the Torah is for the Jews and the Qu'ran is for the Muslims etc.
Shalom
Ted
Joseph: A great dad!
magenta:-6
Better get some more books. LOL.
If we look at Isaiah 7 we are told that a "virgin shall conceive a child" and that he will be called "Emmanuel". If you go to the birth narratives you will find this quote there.
The idea of a mass slaughter of children is directly related back to the story of pharaoh ordering the killing of children to get rid of Moses.
Micah 5:2 "But you, O Bethlehem . . . from you shall come forth for me one who is to rule in Israel, . . .
Micah is the reason that the story was written up with Jesus being born in Bethlehem rather than where he was actually born in Nazareth. This is not an attempt to deceive but a statement of belief about this Jesus, that he was the Messiah which by the way I believe.
There are three of them. I leave the rest to you.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Better get some more books. LOL.
If we look at Isaiah 7 we are told that a "virgin shall conceive a child" and that he will be called "Emmanuel". If you go to the birth narratives you will find this quote there.
The idea of a mass slaughter of children is directly related back to the story of pharaoh ordering the killing of children to get rid of Moses.
Micah 5:2 "But you, O Bethlehem . . . from you shall come forth for me one who is to rule in Israel, . . .
Micah is the reason that the story was written up with Jesus being born in Bethlehem rather than where he was actually born in Nazareth. This is not an attempt to deceive but a statement of belief about this Jesus, that he was the Messiah which by the way I believe.
There are three of them. I leave the rest to you.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Joseph: A great dad!
magenta:-6
"That is a very Catholic idea"?
They are interpretations based on facts. We have the multiple copies of the documents and they contain variations between them. In several cases the changes can be seen between documents. It's not as if one is guessing in limbo.
I personally don't mind the word Catholic but I'm not sure what you mean. The word Catholic means universal. I am a member of the one holy, catholic and apostolic church. I certainly don't have a problem with that.
Shalom
Ted:-6
"That is a very Catholic idea"?
They are interpretations based on facts. We have the multiple copies of the documents and they contain variations between them. In several cases the changes can be seen between documents. It's not as if one is guessing in limbo.
I personally don't mind the word Catholic but I'm not sure what you mean. The word Catholic means universal. I am a member of the one holy, catholic and apostolic church. I certainly don't have a problem with that.
Shalom
Ted:-6