Did Judas go to heaven?

wardah · Post by **wardah** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:12 am

Hi..

I've been wondering about this recently and I'm not sure whether it's a stupid question or not, but what are your opinions on whether Judas would have gone to heaven or not? - disregarding whether you believe in the events of Bible or not, just looking at it as a christian story..

wardah · Post by **wardah** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:17 am

rjwould;763167 wrote: I don't hink so, wardah, because there is no heaven in my view...

well no, to be honest I don't think there is either, and I wouldn't call myself a christian either (why am I posting here I hear you cry...)

but I just think it would be quite interesting to get people's views.

I don't think I could place any credence in christianity as a set of moral teachings if the general feeling wasn't that judas would have gone to heaven. Surely such things are about forgiveness? For does it not say in the Good Book...

-----------------------------------

3Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

4Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

5And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Matthew 27:3-8

--------------------------------------

and if he truly repented, as is suggested, then surely he has a place in heaven?

Imladris · Post by **Imladris** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:17 am

I believe that Judas betraying Jesus was all part of God's plan, thereby Judas was following and acting on God's will. He realised the consequences of his actions and repented. So, yes, I believe that he went to heaven.

I know it's simplistic and better scholars than me are welcome to tear my theory to shreads but it's what I believe - I know that my God is loving and forgiving so it makes sense to me.

grh · Post by **grh** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:26 am

He did.

What else have you been wondering about lately?

WonderWendy3 · Post by **WonderWendy3** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:34 am

Yep, he's up there....

Pheasy · Post by **Pheasy** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:42 am

fuzzy butt;763200 wrote: I believe differently to all of you, but you know what? if your belief system makes you a nice person as far as I'm concerned then who cares.

Good answer :-6

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:53 am

I'd have to agree.... that according to the plot line Judas ends up in heaven. Kinda should give one pause though at the implication that the rest of the Jews are all burning in Hell.

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:55 am

rjwould;763215 wrote: I think Jesus has it pretty bad too. How would you like to have to sit next to your unpredictable, moody father for all eternity and plead everyone else's case?

Not me--give me hell....

good point.

He'll just send Jesus out to be tortured again ... if someone screws up too bad.

Richard Bell · Post by **Richard Bell** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:57 am

what are your opinions on whether Judas would have gone to heaven or not?

I always liked Bart Simpson's questions to his Sunday school teacher:

1) Are there cave men in heaven ?

2) After a while, wouldn'y you get used to hell, kind of like the way you get used to a sauna?

Richard Bell · Post by **Richard Bell** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:04 am

rjwould;763267 wrote: when someone comes before God's throne to be judged, Jesus pleads their case by showing his dad his scars?

Now, that schtick would get old really fast.

God : "Enough with the scars, already, and anyway...you got that one when you fell off your bike when you were ten."

His dad seems to be a little eccentric to say the least if you ask me.

The Bible does portray Him as quite bi-polar.At least they are consistant in their presentation of Satan. You always know what you're gonna get with that guy.

Again, I'll cite the Book Of Bart when he asks Rod & Todd if they want a "Happy God":wah: or an "Angry God". :-5

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:06 pm

rjwould;763267 wrote: If my memory serves me correctly, isn't it like, when someone comes before God's throne to be judged, Jesus pleads their case by showing his dad his scars? His dad seems to be a little eccentric to say the least if you ask me..

Hmmm ... that must be a Catholic teaching ... seems to add a little tension to the process. I like it.

Southern Baptists (what I'm more familiar with) think that all that matters is that you are "born again." After that, you can kill and eat people ... you're still in like phlegm! There's really no accountability for actions ... just belief.

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:01 pm

rjwould;763439 wrote: But that can't happen because the holy ghost comes and occupies/possesses your body, doesn't it? Then as long as you pray (chant) and let the holy ghost communicate to the father and jesus, you won't sin......you will just love gays but hate what they do..Do I have that right?

Well ... some might think that. The churches I grew up in said that God will just punish a person if they sin (i.e. don't conform) and eventually "call a person home" if they don't straighten up their act eventually. Which honestly makes no sense ... there's almost an incentive to be as bad as possible.

The holy ghost, I think, is the part of God/Jesus that enters the man when he's born again. :yh_money They look at it almost like a chemical reaction ...

But I grew up in a fundie church ... they don't place much value on action, just belief. Actions are mostly about *not* doing things to them.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:52 pm

We have to decide, first of all, whether or not Judas was an historical Character.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:49 pm

Or you can qualify your request for a conversation with something like "disregarding whether you believe in the events of Bible or not, just looking at it as a christian story", that might work. It becomes more a sort of "what does Christian theory say in these possibly theoretical circumstances" if you qualify your original post that way when setting the thread up. You'll still get some people helping the thread along with self-centred "there is no heaven in my view" quips but you might at least end up with a sketch of the outlines of Christian theory as well.

That's how it's meant to work anyway.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:28 pm

rjwould;763635 wrote: calling me out, Spot?Egging Ted on, that's all - maybe I should get one of those things Pharaoh's overseers used to persuade the Hebrews with. A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.

How you could do that to someone on her first day here baffles me.

Christianity has followed biblical teaching to the bitter end. Repentance and faith are what qualify a soul for Christian salvation, it's a time-ordered sequence. That leaves the final moments of the soul on earth pre-eminently important when it comes to the forgiving of sins. It's where you get priests at death-beds and final confessions and the rest of it.

That leaves one act by definition to be unforgivable if it's a sin, that being suicide, there being no moment afterwards in which to repent. In terms of the biblical account (which may or may not reflect any physical truth, and here I fall back on your "just looking at it as a Christian story" to simplify Ted's issue), by all means Judas is obeying the will of both God and his Master throughout the betrayal if you want to read it that way, but in sinning through suicide he dies without grace and excludes himself from redemption.

Don't blame me, I didn't invent this stuff, I'm just having a go of explaining why the Church ended up the way it did.

Anyway, it leaves a few open questions. Is suicide really and invariably a biblical sin or not? Does the bible really describe the state of one's soul at the moment of death as being the condition in which a person is forgiven or not at judgement? Judas has a few get-out options there. Not many, to be honest.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:35 pm

Assuming Judas was in fact an historical character there are still two things to look at. There is the theory that Judas was simply a greedy man who saw a way to make some easy money. Assuming that happened then it would appear that somewhere along the line he was terribly repentant of his actions. If this is the case then no doubt he went to heaven.

The other scenario is that Judas was a trusted disciple who was coached by Jesus to be the betrayer in order to bring about the salvation of mankind. In this case he would also go to heaven.

Either way I guess Judas is there waiting for the rest of us or at least those of us going upwards. That being said I did load the last 5 tons of coal my father ever sold. It was shoveled on by hand so I am used to doing that kind of work. Perhaps I'll get a higher position if I'm heading downwards. LOL.

Shalom

Ted:-6

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:53 pm

Ted;763603 wrote: We have to decide, first of all, whether or not Judas was an historical Character.

Shalom

Ted:-6

He sure is, check out National geographic about 6 months ago, a great article on the translation of one of the Dead Sea Scroll which is, the Gospel of Judus.

If it correct, he and Jesus were in fact best of friends.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:00 pm

spot:-6

Are you being mean to me. LOL

The next problem that arises is "Did Judas actually commit suicide as in the Gospel" or as in Acts "fall down and split his guts open while running across a field"?

Just asking.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Pheasy · Post by **Pheasy** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:16 pm

rjwould;763674 wrote: But, then why is John the disciple that Jesus loved? Now, I am being serious when I say what I am about to, so please don't get too aroused, but I think Jesus may have been gay....

Why do you think that ?

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:59 pm

jester:-6

That comment on Judas' death is a wonderful piece of creative writing. It is an interesting interpretation but not what is there in the Bible.

You know I couldn't resist that one. LOL

Shalom

Ted:-6

Pheasy · Post by **Pheasy** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:10 pm

rjwould;763697 wrote: Because he had no children, was not married, and as I alluded to before, John was the disciple that Jesus loved. It is in Johns gospel at the end...John 21

Thanks for info RJ. I am not religious, and know only a little about the bible (enough to appreciate its values). How old was Jesus when he died? There are many men who have no children and are not married, does that mean they gay? Does loving someone of the same sex, mean you are gay?

I ask out interest, and not in confrontational way. Interesting point.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:12 pm

Ted;763666 wrote: The next problem that arises is "Did Judas actually commit suicide as in the Gospel" or as in Acts "fall down and split his guts open while running across a field"?

Matthew's account is fairly certain that it happened and what motivated Judas: "When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself." That's Matthew linking suicide to remorse. It's the only verse anywhere in the bible that says Judas killed himself. Lots of other verses tell how the prophesies were fulfilled by a chosen disciple betraying where Jesus was to be found and identifying him to his captors, this is the only place that says the betrayer was remorseful and killed himself in consequence.

Perhaps suicide isn't seen as sinful in that generation of Judaism, you only need to look at Masada in AD 72 to test that. When Paul was ijn jail during an earthquake "The jailer woke up, and when he saw the prison doors open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself because he thought the prisoners had escaped". Paul didn't tell him it was the wrong reaction to losing his prisoners, all he did was reassure the jailer that nobody was missing - "Don't harm yourself! We are all here!" - which sounds pretty much like the alternative to "they all got away, carry on with the sword business" to me.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:18 pm

rjwould;763697 wrote: Because he had no children, was not married
Where on earth do you get that information from?

It's like saying Jesus couldn't swim or that he sneezed a lot or that he was deaf in one ear, they're equally speculative suggestions.

Santanico · Post by **Santanico** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:19 pm

Imladris;763175 wrote: I believe that Judas betraying Jesus was all part of God's plan, thereby Judas was following and acting on God's will. He realised the consequences of his actions and repented. So, yes, I believe that he went to heaven.

I know it's simplistic and better scholars than me are welcome to tear my theory to shreads but it's what I believe - I know that my God is loving and forgiving so it makes sense to me.

Great thread, very interesting question.

I agree with Imladris, I'm not Christian, don't really believe in organised religion, but from my understanding it sounds almost like Judas was a puppet in the whole thing. He had a part to play in the crucifixion and it was to be the betrayer. Considering he did exactly what was necessary, I don't see how God could possibly deny him a place in Heaven, even given the suicide thing.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:34 pm

mikeinie;763657 wrote: He sure is, check out National geographic about 6 months ago, a great article on the translation of one of the Dead Sea Scroll which is, the Gospel of Judus.They're separated by about 400 years, the youngest of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the earliest copy of the Gospel of Judas.

Why does having a text carrying your name turn you into an historical character, if that text comes from within the organization you're investigating? It's a method of the times, when it came to discussing philosophy (of which the New Testament is a category), to invent a person as a type and discuss him, after which another author brings in the same character and extends the discussion. Reading the stories about Socrates gives a firm impression that he's the greatest fictional comic character of antiquity, the stories are side-splitting, I find it hard to understand why Socrates is seen as historical at all.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:39 pm

rjwould;763707 wrote: Are you saying differently?

I'm saying that no verse in the bible discusses whether Jesus was or wasn't a swimmer or prone to sneezing or deaf in one ear or married or a begetter of children. It does discuss his character. The person portrayed would have been pretty good as a husband and a father, if you ignore this insistence on being crucified. Assuming he wasn't married just follows the agenda of the Christian Church long after the individual texts of the New Testament were in circulation.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:01 pm

None of the gospel writers were eyewitnesses to the life of Jesus. None of them personally knew Jesus. In fact we do not even know who actually wrote the gospels. The names listed were appended years later to distinguish between one and the other.

The gospels are a mixture of history remembered, history metaphorized and midrashic writing. They were written by a particular person for a particular audience at a particular time. They express what the early church had come to believe about Jesus by the time of writing. These dates are approximate; Mark in the late 60's; Matt in the 70s; Luke who also wrote Acts in the 80's and John somewhere between 90 and 110.

As we read through them in order written we can see the developing anti-antisemitism resulting from the rejection of the Christian sect by the Jews who did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

The Gospels are not nor were intended to be historical accounts but the developing traditions of the early church in their support for the Messiah ship o of Jesus.

Borg, Crossan, Armstrong, Gordon, Fox and a host of others.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:03 pm

rjwould;763725 wrote: Well, this a problem for the Christian then, isn't it? If one is going to believe what the does say, you must commit to what the Bible doesn't say. There is no evidence in the bible that Jesus was married or had children, but I have provided evidence that Jesus may have been gay....Can you show anything contrary to that?

A few years ago, when President Carter went to Poland, he said to an audience, "I love you." His American-Polish interpreter translated it as "I lust after you," which elicited loud laughter from the audience.

You're confused about love.

agapao

of persons: to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly

of things: to be well pleased, to be contented at or with a thing

You're looking instead for phileo, which isn't there.

agapao is wider, embracing especially the judgment and the deliberate assent of the will as a matter of principle, duty and propriety: phileo is chiefly of the heart, agapeo of the head.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:09 pm

In the Greek lexicon agape is the unconditional love that God has for all His/Her creatures. There is no sexual intent whatsoever.

Let us not forget "eros" which is the love one engages in, usually between individuals who are living together or at least playing together, sometimes in bed. LOL. Erotic love, which in spite of Augustine, is not sinful.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:10 pm

spot:-6

I wonder if Carter ran for cover. LOL

Shalom

Ted:-6

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:20 pm

rjwould;763744 wrote: As you have stated in another thread, neither one of us knows truth for certain, right?

That's so far adrift from "I am being serious when I say what I am about to, so please don't get too aroused, but I think Jesus may have been gay...." we're not even on the same topic any longer. A lurker finally signs up and posts hoping to join in on the site and you're engaged in systematically wrecking her first attempt at a serious thread on Day 1. It's not kind. "Did Judas go to heaven" was an interesting invitation, I thought.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:27 pm

I can certainly agree that it was an excellent question and one to which I'd never given any thought.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:37 pm

rjwould;763758 wrote: ta ta, Spot, so unbecoming of you. But I'll let you go on this...Have a good night... I'm sure you will live to see another day.

No, it's not that Rj, it's that nobody can start any thread on Christianity these days without you coming in heavy-footed to announce what a fraud religion is. A bit of self-restraint would go a long way.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:20 pm

Jester;763812 wrote: Its a stupid question.

Did Judas go to heaven is a stupid question?

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:30 pm

Jester;763814 wrote: I took that as Ted questioning it with serious thought. Did I read him wrong?Fraid so. Easily done on a thread as grubbily handled as this one. I'm hoping it might get back on track tomorrow. I'd much rather have not posted in it at all but lumpenboots decided to perform his traditional clog-dance for absolutely no reason whatever.

Pheasy · Post by **Pheasy** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:09 am

jimbo;764064 wrote: here is a most excellent thread started by that carl 44 fellow ,boy i miss that guy .the charm the wit the good looks ,the modesty i could go on :p:p

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showt ... spel+judas

i think judas was innocent

:wah: you crack me up :wah:

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:26 am

As far as suicide goes, this really isn't even viewed as a huge sin in fundamentalist thought. I mean the worst sin would be something like one man having sex with another man. Lower down on the list would be one man killing another man. Suicide ranks near the bottom ... maybe after stealing. Or maybe it's not a sin at all.

My understanding is that this is a Catholic teaching... I think there was a problem back in the middle ages where serfs did the math and realized they'd be better off in heaven than plowing. Honestly, anyone who gives it much thought will find the notion of staying alive pointless, when the prospect of Heaven is right through the door. So the church stepped in and declared suicide an unforgivable sin. This cut down on the people "falling" on their plowshares. As far as the unforgivable sin in the Bible goes, it's kind of vague as to what Paul is referring to .... he may have been talking about beard trimming for all we know.

But who is right? As my grandfather noted ... the Bible refers to John the Baptist ... not John the Catholic. So that pretty much settles it. :guitarist :wah: :wah:

wardah · Post by **wardah** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:59 am

grh;763182 wrote: He did.

What else have you been wondering about lately?

Ah, many things... Mostly: would you take up an offer to become a super hero if it meant that you could throw sofas really far (and presumably, through windows without breaking them)? For example, if you were sat in a cafe on a very comfy sofa and thought to yourself 'ah me, how dearly I would love this sofa in my house' - you would simply be able to lift it effortlessly in one hand and lob it into your sitting room, scot free of any retribution police-wise seeing as noone would ever believe it possible, and noone would recognise you anyway as you would naturally be wearing a mask and have slicked back hair.

The downside of all of this? I'm not sure yet, possibly a silly costume. Or the terrible terrible guilt when you saw people sitting in cafes on beanbags...

That may have been a little off-topic... Have I ruined my own thread??

Imladris · Post by **Imladris** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:42 am

:yh_clap:yh_clap:yh_worshp:yh_worshp Wardah, excellent way to throw your own thread off course, love it!!!

Pheasy · Post by **Pheasy** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:47 am

wardah;764173 wrote: Ah, many things... Mostly: would you take up an offer to become a super hero if it meant that you could throw sofas really far (and presumably, through windows without breaking them)? For example, if you were sat in a cafe on a very comfy sofa and thought to yourself 'ah me, how dearly I would love this sofa in my house' - you would simply be able to lift it effortlessly in one hand and lob it into your sitting room, scot free of any retribution police-wise seeing as noone would ever believe it possible, and noone would recognise you anyway as you would naturally be wearing a mask and have slicked back hair.

The downside of all of this? I'm not sure yet, possibly a silly costume. Or the terrible terrible guilt when you saw people sitting in cafes on beanbags...

That may have been a little off-topic... Have I ruined my own thread??

Now this person we could work with :wah:

Pull it out and start another thread - its worthy of its own thread