Did Judas go to heaven?

Discuss the Christian Faith.
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YZGI
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Did Judas go to heaven?

Post by YZGI »

Hmm, a Super sofa thrower? They will never make a cartoon on that..:wah:
wardah
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Did Judas go to heaven?

Post by wardah »

ThePheasant;764207 wrote: Now this person we could work with :wah:

Pull it out and start another thread - its worthy of its own thread ;)




ok in the interest of not destroying my own thread, there is now a brand new one in the 'general chit-chat' bit, for anyone who spends similar amounts of time agonising over such problematic issues...

I would love to post a link to the thread for anyone too lazy to look for it, but apparently I can't post urls yet as I've still got stabilizers on my account for a few more posts (or something to that effect)
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Post by Pheasy »

rjwould;764226 wrote: I know you, don't I?


eeeeewww do tell ..... I'm all ears
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Post by wardah »

rjwould;764226 wrote: I know you, don't I?


why? are you missing a sofa?
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Post by Pheasy »

wardah;764235 wrote: why? are you missing a sofa?


:yh_rotfl
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Post by wardah »

rjwould;764256 wrote: My sofa was a latecomer...


no idea i'm afraid! although I am intrigued as to whether you've had the whole sofa-throwing-as-a-super-hero-power conversation before?! Maybe it's just one of those fundamental life-questions that occurs to everyone at some point?
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Post by Ted »

My mistake in commenting on that question. I should have specified the op.

But I see no problem in asking the second one either. We know very little about the life of Jesus. Scholars however, do feel that he was never married and that he never had children. I'm not aware if the sexuality question has ever been addressed in scholarly circles. It probably has but it has never come up in any course I've taken or any book I've read.

Now I've made that mistake I wonder if it could be considered a sin--not to spell out which question one was referring to? I wonder what penance I will have to perform. LOL. Five lashes with a wet noodle?

Shalom

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Post by Ted »

ruwould:-6

Damn. LOL

Shalom

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Post by Ted »

It is amazing the steps that many go to to reconcile the irreconcilable as far as the Bible goes. I find it a source of great pleasure to see the creative writing and the creating dancing that folks will engage in to make it all fit into a seamless whole. Unfortunately it really doesn't work. I'm sure it makes the individual feel better but it does noting to convince others.

The fact remains there are discrepancies in the Bible that cannot be reconciled. However, that only is a concern to those of us who hold the Bible to be inerrant. Many of those who accept the discrepancies do not seem to lose faith because of them. When the Bible is seen in the way it was written they become completely unimportant.

This is pertinent in this thread because the fact is there are two different stories as to how Judas met his end: Matt. 27:5, he hanged himself' Acts 1:18 where he fell and split open his guts. When it says "and falling headlong" would indicate that when he hit the ground he still was in possession of his head.

I will do a little research on Judas and see what I can find.

Shalom

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Post by Pheasy »

Does his sexuality matter? I'm not religious, but to those who are, does it really matter? Isn't it more about what he was representing, his values and impact on others? The life guidelines, do they change if he was gay?
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Post by spot »

ThePheasant;764478 wrote: Does his sexuality matter? I think the question relates more to whether you can logically argue "the bible doesn't mention X therefore X is false". As in "the bible doesn't mention Jesus being married therefore Jesus wasn't married", or "the bible doesn't mention Jesus having children, therefore Jesus had no children". It's a total non sequitur. The bible doesn't mention that Nebuchadnezzar was married either but his wall carvings do, he was married to Amytis of Media. Where, on the other hand, someone actually is positively not married, like Paul, the bible says so, because being not married is exceptional. It's stretching things to assume that if marital status isn't specified the person's married but that's far more supportable than the illogic we started with. Married is the usual unspoken condition.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
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Post by Pheasy »

spot;764490 wrote: I think the question relates more to whether you can logically argue "the bible doesn't mention X therefore X is false". As in "the bible doesn't mention Jesus being married therefore Jesus wasn't married", or "the bible doesn't mention Jesus having children, therefore Jesus had no children". It's a total non sequitur. The bible doesn't mention that Nebuchadnezzar was married either but his wall carvings do, he was married to Amytis of Media. Where, on the other hand, someone actually is positively not married, like Paul, the bible says so, because being not married is exceptional. It's stretching things to assume that if marital status isn't specified the person's married but that's far more supportable than the illogic we started with. Married is the usual unspoken condition.


I don't understand what you are saying here Spot?
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Post by spot »

rjwould;764492 wrote: There is a combined total of 27 different books, if you will, testifying in length about the life, times, accounts, testaments and teachings of one Jesus.


That's an astonishingly uninformed statement.

There's a discussion about his first two years at the beginning of Matthew and Luke. There's a brief glimpse of him at the age of twelve in Luke. There's a number of sightings after the crucifixion. Everything else in the entire bible which discusses Jesus is focused into a single snapshot window which is arguably - persuasively, in my opinion - less than four weeks in duration and which has an agenda totally remote from anything biographical.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Post by spot »

ThePheasant;764502 wrote: I don't understand what you are saying here Spot?


An instance of faulty logic from Wikipedia:

1. If A then B. (e.g., If I am in Tokyo, I am in Japan.)

2. Not A. (e.g., I am not in Tokyo.)

3. Therefore, not B. (e.g., Therefore, I am not in Japan.)

or in this case, an instance of faulty logic from Rj:

1. If the bible says Jesus was married then Jesus was married.

2. The bible doesn't say Jesus was married.

3. Therefore Jesus wasn't married.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Post by Pheasy »

spot;764512 wrote: An instance of faulty logic from Wikipedia:

1. If A then B. (e.g., If I am in Tokyo, I am in Japan.)

2. Not A. (e.g., I am not in Tokyo.)

3. Therefore, not B. (e.g., Therefore, I am not in Japan.)

or in this case, an instance of faulty logic from Rj:

1. If the bible says Jesus was married then Jesus was married.

2. The bible doesn't say Jesus was married.

3. Therefore Jesus wasn't married.


:-5 :-5:-5 could you try for once to be with me here
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Post by spot »

rjwould;764515 wrote: One last thing, Spot old boy, I never said Jesus was gay or was not married


I think the words you're looking for are:

Rj: please don't get too aroused, but I think Jesus may have been gay....

Pheasy: Why do you think that ?

Rj: Because he had no children, was not married [...] If one is going to believe what the [Bible] does say, you must commit to what the Bible doesn't say. There is no evidence in the bible that Jesus was married or had children.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Post by koan »

I think that suicide would prevent Judas from going to heaven according to biblical 'rules'. It's interesting to think that exceptions would be made just because he was a disciple.

There are so many different variations of Christianity it's hard to give a yes or no answer though. In my non Christian view, I think that Judas could only go to what he would believe is heaven if he forgave himself, otherwise I'd expect him to be stuck in limbo in one form or another.

Spot, bless you for trying to bring logic to the conversation. It's not your fault if it did no good.

rj, you're repeating yourself. It gets boring.
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Post by spot »

rjwould;764557 wrote: Good Girl.....


Did you actually once claim not to have a condescending manner?

Highlighting the "may" gay bit above deflects from the absolutes which are the bone of contention, the "because he had no children, was not married" absolute, the "you must commit to what the Bible doesn't say" absolute, which rely on ignoring the very clear illogic of your argument.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Post by Ted »

A=B

B=C

Therefore A=C

Shalom

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Post by yaaarrrgg »

koan;764554 wrote: I think that suicide would prevent Judas from going to heaven according to biblical 'rules'. It's interesting to think that exceptions would be made just because he was a disciple.


Wasn't Jesus' entire mission to Earth essentially a suicide mission? To supposedly die for the sins of man, as a sacrifical "lamb"? So if there's no flex in these rules, that means Jesus should be in hell.

Also, where does the Bible say suicide is a sin? The act could be the most noble action (especially in the case of saving someone else). What's the verse... no man has greater love, than to lay down his life for another. Sounds like suicide, essentially to me.
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Post by spot »

The only reason I posted in this thread at all is my outrage at your slap-happy vandalism.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Post by koan »

yaaarrrgg;764565 wrote: Wasn't Jesus' entire mission to Earth essentially a suicide mission? To supposedly die for the sins of man, as a sacrifical "lamb"? So if there's no flex in these rules, that means Jesus should be in hell.

Also, where does the Bible say suicide is a sin? The act could be the most noble action (especially in the case of saving someone else). What's the verse... no man has greater love, than to lay down his life for another. Sounds like suicide, essentially to me.


Interesting point. I think that is a bit of a catch 22 for people who feel the need to say that Jesus could have prevented his own death.

As to the second question, I'll clarify that I do not profess to know the bible. I have not once quoted from it intentionally in my adult life. Nevertheless, the basis for my earlier comment is summarized nicely in wikipedia

In most forms of Christianity, suicide is considered a sin, based mainly on the writings of influential Christian thinkers of the Middle Ages, such as St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas. Their arguments center around the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" (made applicable under the New Covenant by Jesus in Matthew 19:18), as well as the idea that life is a gift given by God which should not be spurned, and that suicide is against the "natural order" and thus interferes with God's master plan for the world.
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Post by spot »

rjwould;764578 wrote: Citation?


We did this earlier. "there is no heaven in my view" in the teeth of "disregarding whether you believe in the events of Bible or not, just looking at it as a christian story". What does anyone have to do to qualify an OP to the extent that an on-topic discussion can happen? What formula would you recommend that you might just allow you to bypass your overwhelming urge to trash the subject area?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Post by koan »

rjwould;764574 wrote:

I realize koan doesn't like seeing her men take it on the chin, but hey, even the great Spot can't win them all...




:-2

aside: Who is this guy?

Excuse me, but who are my men and how many are there? I should keep track of such things. Also, if you feel like making a remark that relates to the topic of the thread, you might surprise us all.
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Post by koan »

note to any who might observe it:

I'm experimenting with not wearing my glasses today so if I make a typo or some such nonsense, please laugh with me. This will be proofread in a week if not within a more reasonable time limit.
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Post by koan »

koan;764588 wrote: Also, if you feel like making a remark that relates to the topic of the thread, you might surprise us all.


rjwould;764594 wrote: Some women just can't help but to play the mother role....Is this the process of surrendering the self in Buddhism?


I'm not surprised.
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Post by YZGI »

rjwould;764492 wrote: Consider the fact that Nebuchadnezzar was a blip in the bible, whereas the entire new testament is based on one person...Jesus...



There is a combined total of 27 different books, if you will, testifying in length about the life, times, accounts, testaments and teachings of one Jesus. You would think that with all the activities accounted for there would be some mention somewhere of family ties. We can find clues about his mother, both fathers and even his siblings, but no mention of any male/female relationship he may have been involved in. We even know that there were females in his entourage. We can see many casual and committed relationship with Jesus....That is not non sequitur, my friend, that is deduction.



Lets turn it around as you like to often do.



Lets say that we were a gay society and heterosexuality was a minority, would your perspective be the same? I doubt it because you would say since there is no mention, it would be assumed he was gay.





But, there would be a lot less people to argue this..
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Post by koan »

rjwould;764604 wrote: You shouldn't be, those are your own words, more or less..Hey, you wanted in, or are you and your boy going to try to change that fact too?


You might go back and notice that my first post in this thread starts with my thoughts on the actual opening query and that I put a little effort into the response. My comments to you are, as usual, secondary. Why are you trying so hard? Chill out. It's a fun place to be when you relax your seat.

As to the drivel I quote in this post... I have little idea of what you speak. If you're going to spout off you might as well focus on coming up with a legitimate response to the opening post.
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Post by YZGI »

rjwould;764601 wrote: God, you are so god damn locical, Yz...



BTW did you ever ask your guys about the purge valve? Sorry to corner you like that but I gotta get rid of this car..
Remind me monday, I got busy as hell at work and with Spot on a website I forgot. Sorry buddy.
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Post by YZGI »

rjwould;764620 wrote: NP, but I think koan will try to get me banned by then....Thanks anyway...:)
Nah, they only ban people with large green eyes. Well thats whay i have noticed. Oh and ou need a mole on your forehead also..
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Post by koan »

rjwould;764612 wrote: Like they say about gay men, why are the pretty ones so dumb....


The above post has no redeeming value.

This is yet another attempt to make the thread about homosexuality. It has nothing to do with the topic and no relevance outside of ad hominem attack. You have done nothing but troll since you arrived in this thread and, as a mod, I couldn't ignore it any longer.

Hopefully this topic will be able to continue without further disruption.
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Post by Accountable »

wardah;763165 wrote: Hi..



I've been wondering about this recently and I'm not sure whether it's a stupid question or not, but what are your opinions on whether Judas would have gone to heaven or not? - disregarding whether you believe in the events of Bible or not, just looking at it as a christian story..
So, got yer answer? :)
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Post by YZGI »

YZGI;764624 wrote: Nah, they only ban people with large green eyes. Well thats whay i have noticed. Oh and ou need a mole on your forehead also..
Is it me or has my spelling gone down as my drinking has increased?
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Post by koan »

I liked the subsequent question about whether or not Jesus was committing suicide by allowing himself to be sacrificed.
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Post by Accountable »

koan;764633 wrote: I liked the subsequent question about whether or not Jesus was committing suicide by allowing himself to be sacrificed.
Does the Old Testament specifically prohibit suicide? I'll admit I've never checked because I never plan to challenge such a rule.
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Post by koan »

In the bit quoted from wikipedia it mentions that the concept of suicide being sinful is based on "thou shalt not kill" and that life is sacred. It is an interpretation.

Feasibly there could be a line drawn between sacrificing oneself to save someone else and just plain killing oneself.

Comparison, throwing yourself in front of a truck to push a child out of the way, knowing that you'd be killed yourself, would not be seen as suicide by most.
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Post by YZGI »

koan;764646 wrote: In the bit quoted from wikipedia it mentions that the concept of suicide being sinful is based on "thou shalt not kill" and that life is sacred. It is an interpretation.



Feasibly there could be a line drawn between sacrificing oneself to save someone else and just plain killing oneself.



Comparison, throwing yourself in front of a truck to push a child out of the way, knowing that you'd be killed yourself, would not be seen as suicide by most.
Good point Koan
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Post by Accountable »

koan;764646 wrote: In the bit quoted from wikipedia it mentions that the concept of suicide being sinful is based on "thou shalt not kill" and that life is sacred. It is an interpretation.



Feasibly there could be a line drawn between sacrificing oneself to save someone else and just plain killing oneself.



Comparison, throwing yourself in front of a truck to push a child out of the way, knowing that you'd be killed yourself, would not be seen as suicide by most.That makes sense to me.

rjwould wrote: Once again, you make no sense......

Jesus threw himself in front of one helluva truck. :-6
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Post by koan »

Some people believe that Judas was given the role of betrayer and that he did so reluctantly, then couldn't live with the grief. Either way, he didn't wait for God to decide when he should die. At the same time, God gave the go ahead for various people to slaughter multitudes of people so... there is some shakiness to whether or not the same God would turn anyone away for having taken a life.
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Post by YZGI »

I have always believed in God and all the stories of the bible. I have now begun to question some of the "truths" of the bible and wonder if these "truths" are more lessons than "truths"..
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Post by koan »

My understanding of the New and Old Testaments (:wah:) from one who hasn't particularly read them, per se...

Jesus said 'yeah, yeah, the Old Testament is right BUT...' then proceeded to change the entire nature of God. God went from a vengeful, wrathful God to a forgiving and loving father. The Old God probably would have turned Judas away just because he ate a bad sandwich. The New God would likely tell him to cheer up and have some creamcheese with that overly tarted wench on the cloud to the left.
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Post by spot »

koan;764661 wrote: God went from a vengeful, wrathful God to a forgiving and loving father.My eyes are rebelling at too much screen time, I thought that said "funloving" for a moment which is seriously stretching the New Testament to breaking point.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
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Post by koan »

spot;764668 wrote: My eyes are rebelling at too much screen time, I thought that said "funloving" for a moment which is seriously stretching the New Testament to breaking point.


cheers.

some folks are looking for you. :wah:

I expected you to criticise the 'yeah, yeah.." part. I concede that it was probably said in Aramaic.
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Post by YZGI »

koan;764672 wrote: cheers.

some folks are looking for you. :wah:



I expected you to criticise the 'yeah, yeah.." part. I concede that it was probably said in Aramaic.
Oh My gosh. I just seen Koans Sig..:wah::wah:



I have no probs with it...:wah::wah:
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Post by spot »

koan;764672 wrote: I expected you to criticise the 'yeah, yeah.." part. I concede that it was probably said in Aramaic.


Gosh no - the 'yeah, yeah.." is verbatim, it's one of those "Ey up lads, the guvnor's about to hit the Pharisees again" cues.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Post by koan »

This might be a good time for an Irish pub song about Judas' predicament.
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Post by Ted »

YZ:-6

Don't make the mistake of thinking that because it is not historically accurate it has no truths to tell. That is false thinking that resulted from the enlightenment. Truth can be presented in various ways and genres.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by nvalleyvee »

If Judas had not told on Jesus - would the Christians have had the ressurection? I say he was welcomed with open arms into heaven.
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
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Post by Ted »

nvalleyvee:-6

Good question. I will start a new thread.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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