Did anyone else catch this? Apparently what we were taught in our history classes may be wrong. They are saying now that the first Thanksgiving actually happened at Jamestown, Virginia in 1619, two years before the Pilgrims landed in Massachusetts. With Columbus allegedly not having been the discoverer of America and now this, it really makes me wonder about the value of teaching kids about our history- are we lying to them?
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/news/the_fir ... iving.aspx
First Thanksgiving a Myth?
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
-
chonsigirl
- Posts: 33633
- Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:28 am
First Thanksgiving a Myth?
History is revised over time, for various reasons. One is that new primary sources come to light, to explain history in a different manner. Another is a different emphasis on historical explanations, for example, gender studies, minority studies, etc. Also, as time passes after an event, differing interpretations of history change. It always will be so, and makes it a field of study invaluable to study.
I see the article did not list the primary sources used by the children's reinactment, I would be interested to know what they were. The article was written by a journalist, not a historian.
I see the article did not list the primary sources used by the children's reinactment, I would be interested to know what they were. The article was written by a journalist, not a historian.
-
drumbunny1
- Posts: 189
- Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:29 am
First Thanksgiving a Myth?
Very interesting...its hard to say what really happened with anything that far back ...I always thought Pochantas married John Smith! He was the cute one!;) Shows how much I really know!
First Thanksgiving a Myth?
RedGlitter;724238 wrote: ..........With Columbus allegedly not having been the discoverer of America and now this.......]
Columbus didn't discover America, he actually discovered the islandf of San Salvador. As far as I am aware, he never set foot on the American continent until his thjird voyage.
America had been discovered many times. The Grand Banks (off the Newfoundland coast) were well known to European fishermen, there are Viking (and Roman) relics all over (OK, maybe a slight exaggeration) the North-East US & Canada.
I knowof no records of landings on the West coast, but I would be shocked to find that none had occurred.
I know of the laste recorded landing in the Americas before Columbus. That occurred in 1398, under the leadership of Prince Henry Sinclair, Earl of Orkney.
As Chonsi said,history is not a finite article - it is not carved in stone - like all sciences history is empirical.
Columbus didn't discover America, he actually discovered the islandf of San Salvador. As far as I am aware, he never set foot on the American continent until his thjird voyage.
America had been discovered many times. The Grand Banks (off the Newfoundland coast) were well known to European fishermen, there are Viking (and Roman) relics all over (OK, maybe a slight exaggeration) the North-East US & Canada.
I knowof no records of landings on the West coast, but I would be shocked to find that none had occurred.
I know of the laste recorded landing in the Americas before Columbus. That occurred in 1398, under the leadership of Prince Henry Sinclair, Earl of Orkney.
As Chonsi said,history is not a finite article - it is not carved in stone - like all sciences history is empirical.
An ye harm none, do what ye will....
-
LilacDragon
- Posts: 1382
- Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:23 am
First Thanksgiving a Myth?
A myth or not - dinner yesterday was amazing!
As said above, history is always changing. Like it or not, the only people who can say what really happened are the people who were there, and even their opinions of what happened is often skewed by point of view, angle of vision, etc.
As said above, history is always changing. Like it or not, the only people who can say what really happened are the people who were there, and even their opinions of what happened is often skewed by point of view, angle of vision, etc.
Sandi
-
along-for-the-ride
- Posts: 11732
- Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:28 pm
First Thanksgiving a Myth?
The point of the First Thanksgiving is that two very differant cultures came together peacefully, however briefly, to feast together, to play together, to trade, to communicate.
Life is a Highway. Let's share the Commute.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
First Thanksgiving a Myth?
along-for-the-ride;724307 wrote: The point of the First Thanksgiving is that two very differant cultures came together peacefully, however briefly, to feast together, to play together, to trade, to communicate.
That's true.
Thanks you guys for your input. I guess it just made me wonder if it's worth putting stock into what we call our past, if it ends up not being accurate. Good points, all.
That's true.
Thanks you guys for your input. I guess it just made me wonder if it's worth putting stock into what we call our past, if it ends up not being accurate. Good points, all.
-
Richard Bell
- Posts: 1228
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 8:56 am
First Thanksgiving a Myth?
Chookie;724277 wrote: America had been discovered many times. The Grand Banks (off the Newfoundland coast) were well known to European fishermen, there are Viking (and Roman) relics all over (OK, maybe a slight exaggeration) the North-East US & Canada.
America (as in the hemisphere) was discovered by nomadic Asians who crossed the Bering Strait and settled into lands previously uninhabited by humans.
Columbus (and others) mistakenly termed them as "Indians".
America (as in the hemisphere) was discovered by nomadic Asians who crossed the Bering Strait and settled into lands previously uninhabited by humans.
Columbus (and others) mistakenly termed them as "Indians".
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
First Thanksgiving a Myth?
Hi Richard! :-6
So are you saying that today's Indian/Native American is actually of Asian descent? How do we know the land was uninhabited when they arrived? I ask just because land has been stolen from people through history and I wondered if it had been stolen before we got to it.
It's nice to see you!
So are you saying that today's Indian/Native American is actually of Asian descent? How do we know the land was uninhabited when they arrived? I ask just because land has been stolen from people through history and I wondered if it had been stolen before we got to it.
It's nice to see you!
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
First Thanksgiving a Myth?
They're always finding out new stuff.
New Evidence Puts Man In North America 50,000 Years Ago
The dawn of modern homo sapiens occurred in Africa between 60,000 and 80,000 years ago. Evidence of modern man's migration out of the African continent has been documented in Australia and Central Asia at 50,000 years and in Europe at 40,000 years. The fact that humans could have been in North America at or near the same time is expected to spark debate among archaeologists worldwide, raising new questions on the origin and migration of the human species.
New Evidence Puts Man In North America 50,000 Years Ago
The dawn of modern homo sapiens occurred in Africa between 60,000 and 80,000 years ago. Evidence of modern man's migration out of the African continent has been documented in Australia and Central Asia at 50,000 years and in Europe at 40,000 years. The fact that humans could have been in North America at or near the same time is expected to spark debate among archaeologists worldwide, raising new questions on the origin and migration of the human species.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
First Thanksgiving a Myth?
Good article, Accountable- thank you!
-
londonpride
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:01 am
First Thanksgiving a Myth?
Hello red glitter
I live in east London which has a long and varied history but it is changing so fast that I like to record as much as I can. One way is to try and discover the reasons why statues were erected, so I thought you might be interested in this:
On the banks of the Thames at Blackwall stands this monument to a cold December day in 1606 when three small ships set sail from the spot, aboard were the first settlers setting out for the New World since those who had vanished after landing at Roanoake ten years before. It was also fourteen years before the Mayflower made it’s epic journey.
The passage wasn’t an easy one, and it wasn’t made easier that most on board weren’t experienced sailors but merchants who had never been to sea before. At one point they became becalmed in the Irish sea and tempers began to fray during which Captain Smith was accused of wrongdoing and was put under shipboard arrest for the rest of the journey which took months.
Towards the end of April 1607 they came within site of their destination, by then it was discovered that Captain Smith had been wrongly accused. By now many of the men and boys were exhausted by the long and arduous trip, and by sickness, one young man had died on the journey, so as they sailed up a river, which they named after King James, they decided to tie up in a shady bend to recuperate.
A month later the settlers began to establish the Virginia English colony on the banks of the James River 60 miles from the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay in which is now Virginia, almost immediately the settlers came under attack by the Algonquian indians, so for security they set about building a fort. Legend has it that Captain Smith was captured by the Algonquians and his life was saved by Pocahontas the daughter of Chief , but this is thought now to have been much romanticized.
Disease, famine and continuing attacks of neighboring Algonquians took a tremendous toll on the population so that by 1609 only sixty of the original two hundred and fourteen settlers survived, but then came the arrival of Lord De La Ware, who had been appointed the governor of the settlement now called Jamestown, with him came supply ships and the colony was able to survive.
The following year saw the arrival of a certain Captain John Rolf, he had been shipwrecked off the coast of Bermuda but had somehow managed to find his way to the settlement bringing with him tobacco seeds, which thrived in the Virginian climate so that in just two years he was the owner of a sizeable plantation, as the demand grew in the coming years it became responsible for Virginia’s future economy.
It’s here in 1613 that Pocahontas enters the story again, during yet another dispute with the Algonquians she was kidnapped by the settlers and taken to the fort she was held as ransom for the English prisoners being held by the Indians, and also some arms which had been stolen by them.. By now she was in her late teens or early twenties, it was here that she eventually met Captain Rolf, she was held in captivity for nearly a year, though she was given free run of the fort. When she was finally released she is said to have told her two brothers that she was in love with John Rolf. What follows is somewhat unclear but the outcome is that the two were married, whether it was a love match or a means of keeping the peace between two warring factions we shall never know, but within a year the two were married.
This was after Pocahontas was converted to Christianity christened Rebecca, for John Rolf was by all accounts a deeply religious man who debated long and hard about the decision to marry this ‘strange’ young woman, then the decision was made on the grounds that it would be good "for the good of the plantation, the honor of our country, for the glory of God, for mine own salvation ..."
Pocahontas gave birth to a son they named Thomas, and the couple seemed happy enough so that when John returned to England in 1616 his wife and young son came with him. When they arrived in England they went to London and were received by the King. Pocahontas soon became the toast of high society, it was during her time in London that she met Capt Smith again who had left the colony in 1609, on seeing him she is reported as being unable to speak for she had thought he had died, but she soon recovered and together they spoke of the old times, this was the last time the two who would forever be linked together by history would meet.
Seven months later it was time to return to America, but as the ship began its voyage along the Thames it became clear that Pocahontas was seriously ill, it was agreed she should be taken ashore but sadly all efforts to save her failed, it is thought she had developed tuberculosis. She was buried in the vault of St George’s Gravesend. In 1727 the church was destroyed by fire, and when it was later rebuilt all remains, including those of Pocahontas were reburied in a communal grave. However a statue of her now stands in the churchyard; by this time John Rolf returned to America with his young son.
Relations between the settlers and the Algonquians had always been an uneasy one but in 1622 it spilled over into hostility leaving over 300 settlers dead, but somehow the fort survived. King James used this opportunity to revoke the Charter of the Virginia Company which had run the fort up until 1624 when it became a royal colony. The fort remained in existence until it gradually grew into Jamestown and gradually the fort disappeared.
The first monument marking the departure of the first settlers was unveiled in 1928 it was topped with a figure of a mermaid, some time later the monument was vandalised and the mermaid was stolen, the existing statue (above} was unveiled by the American Ambassador in 1999.
As a postscript to this story the following appeared in the press earlier this year.
A mermaid statue made to commemorate the first British settlers in America has turned up at an auction in Billericay after going missing for 50 years.
The bronze topped the statue which marked the spot in Docklands from where three boats set off for the New World.
Then a power station was built nearby, the area became neglected and the mermaid disappeared from its plinth.
This week it reappeared at the auction of dealer Alan Marks's entire collection. He bought the near lifesize statue from a man in Hatfield Heath 15 years ago and since then it has sat in his back garden
Mr Marks decided to sell it because he was moving but it failed to reach its £1,500 reserve.
Barratt Homes redeveloped the area into Virginia Quay and spent £90,000 rebuilding the monument, commissioning a bronze mariner's astrolabe in place of the mermaid.
The builder said: "We'd be interested in looking at the mermaid for historical purposes but after building a new monument we won't want to replace it."
I live in east London which has a long and varied history but it is changing so fast that I like to record as much as I can. One way is to try and discover the reasons why statues were erected, so I thought you might be interested in this:
On the banks of the Thames at Blackwall stands this monument to a cold December day in 1606 when three small ships set sail from the spot, aboard were the first settlers setting out for the New World since those who had vanished after landing at Roanoake ten years before. It was also fourteen years before the Mayflower made it’s epic journey.
The passage wasn’t an easy one, and it wasn’t made easier that most on board weren’t experienced sailors but merchants who had never been to sea before. At one point they became becalmed in the Irish sea and tempers began to fray during which Captain Smith was accused of wrongdoing and was put under shipboard arrest for the rest of the journey which took months.
Towards the end of April 1607 they came within site of their destination, by then it was discovered that Captain Smith had been wrongly accused. By now many of the men and boys were exhausted by the long and arduous trip, and by sickness, one young man had died on the journey, so as they sailed up a river, which they named after King James, they decided to tie up in a shady bend to recuperate.
A month later the settlers began to establish the Virginia English colony on the banks of the James River 60 miles from the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay in which is now Virginia, almost immediately the settlers came under attack by the Algonquian indians, so for security they set about building a fort. Legend has it that Captain Smith was captured by the Algonquians and his life was saved by Pocahontas the daughter of Chief , but this is thought now to have been much romanticized.
Disease, famine and continuing attacks of neighboring Algonquians took a tremendous toll on the population so that by 1609 only sixty of the original two hundred and fourteen settlers survived, but then came the arrival of Lord De La Ware, who had been appointed the governor of the settlement now called Jamestown, with him came supply ships and the colony was able to survive.
The following year saw the arrival of a certain Captain John Rolf, he had been shipwrecked off the coast of Bermuda but had somehow managed to find his way to the settlement bringing with him tobacco seeds, which thrived in the Virginian climate so that in just two years he was the owner of a sizeable plantation, as the demand grew in the coming years it became responsible for Virginia’s future economy.
It’s here in 1613 that Pocahontas enters the story again, during yet another dispute with the Algonquians she was kidnapped by the settlers and taken to the fort she was held as ransom for the English prisoners being held by the Indians, and also some arms which had been stolen by them.. By now she was in her late teens or early twenties, it was here that she eventually met Captain Rolf, she was held in captivity for nearly a year, though she was given free run of the fort. When she was finally released she is said to have told her two brothers that she was in love with John Rolf. What follows is somewhat unclear but the outcome is that the two were married, whether it was a love match or a means of keeping the peace between two warring factions we shall never know, but within a year the two were married.
This was after Pocahontas was converted to Christianity christened Rebecca, for John Rolf was by all accounts a deeply religious man who debated long and hard about the decision to marry this ‘strange’ young woman, then the decision was made on the grounds that it would be good "for the good of the plantation, the honor of our country, for the glory of God, for mine own salvation ..."
Pocahontas gave birth to a son they named Thomas, and the couple seemed happy enough so that when John returned to England in 1616 his wife and young son came with him. When they arrived in England they went to London and were received by the King. Pocahontas soon became the toast of high society, it was during her time in London that she met Capt Smith again who had left the colony in 1609, on seeing him she is reported as being unable to speak for she had thought he had died, but she soon recovered and together they spoke of the old times, this was the last time the two who would forever be linked together by history would meet.
Seven months later it was time to return to America, but as the ship began its voyage along the Thames it became clear that Pocahontas was seriously ill, it was agreed she should be taken ashore but sadly all efforts to save her failed, it is thought she had developed tuberculosis. She was buried in the vault of St George’s Gravesend. In 1727 the church was destroyed by fire, and when it was later rebuilt all remains, including those of Pocahontas were reburied in a communal grave. However a statue of her now stands in the churchyard; by this time John Rolf returned to America with his young son.
Relations between the settlers and the Algonquians had always been an uneasy one but in 1622 it spilled over into hostility leaving over 300 settlers dead, but somehow the fort survived. King James used this opportunity to revoke the Charter of the Virginia Company which had run the fort up until 1624 when it became a royal colony. The fort remained in existence until it gradually grew into Jamestown and gradually the fort disappeared.
The first monument marking the departure of the first settlers was unveiled in 1928 it was topped with a figure of a mermaid, some time later the monument was vandalised and the mermaid was stolen, the existing statue (above} was unveiled by the American Ambassador in 1999.
As a postscript to this story the following appeared in the press earlier this year.
A mermaid statue made to commemorate the first British settlers in America has turned up at an auction in Billericay after going missing for 50 years.
The bronze topped the statue which marked the spot in Docklands from where three boats set off for the New World.
Then a power station was built nearby, the area became neglected and the mermaid disappeared from its plinth.
This week it reappeared at the auction of dealer Alan Marks's entire collection. He bought the near lifesize statue from a man in Hatfield Heath 15 years ago and since then it has sat in his back garden
Mr Marks decided to sell it because he was moving but it failed to reach its £1,500 reserve.
Barratt Homes redeveloped the area into Virginia Quay and spent £90,000 rebuilding the monument, commissioning a bronze mariner's astrolabe in place of the mermaid.
The builder said: "We'd be interested in looking at the mermaid for historical purposes but after building a new monument we won't want to replace it."
First Thanksgiving a Myth?
Chookie;724277 wrote: Columbus didn't discover America, he actually discovered the islandf of San Salvador. As far as I am aware, he never set foot on the American continent until his thjird voyage.
America had been discovered many times. The Grand Banks (off the Newfoundland coast) were well known to European fishermen, there are Viking (and Roman) relics all over (OK, maybe a slight exaggeration) the North-East US & Canada.
I know of no records of landings on the West coast, but I would be shocked to find that none had occurred.
I know of the last recorded landing in the Americas before Columbus. That occurred in 1398, under the leadership of Prince Henry Sinclair, Earl of Orkney.
As Chonsi said,history is not a finite article - it is not carved in stone - like all sciences history is empirical.
The Chinese in 1442 during their circumnavigation. Fairly well documented and attested to by archaeological remains.
America had been discovered many times. The Grand Banks (off the Newfoundland coast) were well known to European fishermen, there are Viking (and Roman) relics all over (OK, maybe a slight exaggeration) the North-East US & Canada.
I know of no records of landings on the West coast, but I would be shocked to find that none had occurred.
I know of the last recorded landing in the Americas before Columbus. That occurred in 1398, under the leadership of Prince Henry Sinclair, Earl of Orkney.
As Chonsi said,history is not a finite article - it is not carved in stone - like all sciences history is empirical.
The Chinese in 1442 during their circumnavigation. Fairly well documented and attested to by archaeological remains.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
First Thanksgiving a Myth?
LondonPride, I just saw this thread again!!
Thank you for all that great information! I found it very interesting.
And thanks Bryn, for bumping this thread up!
:)
Thank you for all that great information! I found it very interesting.
And thanks Bryn, for bumping this thread up!
:)