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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

yaaarrrgg;973217 wrote: Most libertarians I talk to view the civil war as unconstitutional, and a federal abuse of power. I think the South could have seceded legally, but choose a violent route instead... being the hot-headed rednecks they were. :)



http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 403AAawQdS



http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20041124.html
According to this timeline, the states did secede, but Buchanan and later Lincoln didn't honor their sovereignty and kept forts in the area occupied. So it wasn't the hot-headed rednecks you quip about who started the war.



I'm no expert on this, but the time and legality question fascinates me, so I look forward to learning alot from this thread. :-6
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Post by yaaarrrgg »

Accountable;973433 wrote: According to this timeline, the states did secede, but Buchanan and later Lincoln didn't honor their sovereignty and kept forts in the area occupied. So it wasn't the hot-headed rednecks you quip about who started the war.



I'm no expert on this, but the time and legality question fascinates me, so I look forward to learning alot from this thread. :-6


I'm no expert either. In my view, the South was morally in the wrong, although legally may have had the option to secede. I think the mistake though was in doing it unilaterally, and violently, since it was seen as a military coup.

Lincoln's argument was interesting:

"Lincoln denied that the Union was a mere voluntary association--and claimed that even if it were, ordinary principles of contract law would bar unilateral secession. Lincoln noted that while one party can breach a contract, the consent of all parties is required to rescind a contract. But secessionists analogized the Constitution to a treaty, not a contract--on the ground that each state was more like a sovereign nation than a human being. And under treaty law, unilateral rescission is permissible."

From: http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20041124.html

I think the South fixated on the idea of unilateral secession, but didn't need to. It only had to become such a nuisance, that the North would have wanted to separate from it voluntarily.

But practically speaking had the South seceded, it would have collapsed anyway ... it was destroying itself economically with slavery. Why hire a a person to do a job, when they could buy someone and pay them nothing? After collapse, it would then be absorbed either back into the U.S. or Mexico. This would have created a lot of political instability I think, resulting in even bloodier warfare (possibly lasting to this day). The act of secession has practical effects which pose a danger to the other states. To this degree, unilateral secession is reckless, and fails to recognize how these actions will affect the other party.
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yaaarrrgg;973672 wrote: I'm no expert either. In my view, the South was morally in the wrong, although legally may have had the option to secede. I think the mistake though was in doing it unilaterally, and violently, since it was seen as a military coup.



Lincoln's argument was interesting:



"Lincoln denied that the Union was a mere voluntary association--and claimed that even if it were, ordinary principles of contract law would bar unilateral secession. Lincoln noted that while one party can breach a contract, the consent of all parties is required to rescind a contract. But secessionists analogized the Constitution to a treaty, not a contract--on the ground that each state was more like a sovereign nation than a human being. And under treaty law, unilateral rescission is permissible."



From: http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20041124.html

Sure they were morally wrong. The founding was morally wrong and hypocritical saying all men are created equal while permitting slavery. But being wrong is just as much a God-given right as any other enumerated in the Constitution. The Constitution clearly set states equal if not superior to the federal government. That's the reason for the designation of "state" rather than province or some other such designation. A state, a government, is clearly not a corporation to be contracted, but a country, or at least demi-country if I may make up new words. The agreement is more treaty than contract.



yaaarrrgg wrote: I think the South fixated on the idea of unilateral secession, but didn't need to. It only had to become such a nuisance, that the North would have wanted to separate from it voluntarily.



But practically speaking had the South seceded, it would have collapsed anyway ... it was destroying itself economically with slavery. Why hire a a person to do a job, when they could buy someone and pay them nothing? After collapse, it would then be absorbed either back into the U.S. or Mexico. This would have created a lot of political instability I think, resulting in even bloodier warfare (possibly lasting to this day). The act of secession has practical effects which pose a danger to the other states. To this degree, unilateral secession is reckless, and fails to recognize how these actions will affect the other party.You're probably right about failure though I disagree about war to this day, but the ends don't justify the means. The ends never justify the means. They deserved to exercise their right to secede and fail.
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Post by Lon »

Accountable;973433 wrote: According to this timeline, the states did secede, but Buchanan and later Lincoln didn't honor their sovereignty and kept forts in the area occupied. So it wasn't the hot-headed rednecks you quip about who started the war.



I'm no expert on this, but the time and legality question fascinates me, so I look forward to learning alot from this thread. :-6


Google Abe Lincoln's Cooper Union Speech--------the speech contributed to his being elected. It's an outstanding speech.
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Lon;974262 wrote: Google Abe Lincoln's Cooper Union Speech--------the speech contributed to his being elected. It's an outstanding speech.
I found it but I'm really short on time. I'll read it later; maybe even in speech class. In the meantime, would you summarize the parts that apply to this thread, please?
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Post by chonsigirl »

That is a great article on FindLaw, I read it last night.

Succession, and the constitutional right to do this. It is not specifically said you cannot in the Constitution. That was the stand the South used when they did it. They were a valid entity unto themself during the period of the Civil War. It is only how a historian writes about it afterwards, whether they see it that way.

Is it feasible today? You hear about it every so often, about an area, municipalship or something similar trying it, to make a specific point.
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Hoss;974659 wrote: Yikes! All the legal wrangling makes my head soppy. If we have in our constitution the ability for a state to leave the 'union', which I think is the right based on a balance of power, as a warning for the federal side to not try to take up too much power then any state that chooses to leave the protection of the ‘union’ should be allowed to do so even if that increases the risk to the rest of the union. That’s an issue that needs to be thought about when or if the 'union' starts to gain more power. I don't know the history well enough to comment on the legal arguments. But I don't think Abraham Lincoln followed the idea our constitution was created for. I think Abraham Lincoln thought he was doing the best thing for the country when he fought to keep the union together and found legal verbage to justify his opinion.
I agree with you. Many people today would say "Well at least he preserved the Union." But the ends never justify the means. I often wonder what the world would be like if Lincoln (and his predecessors, let's be fair) had done his job properly.
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Post by K.Snyder »

Accountable;974226 wrote:

You're probably right about failure though I disagree about war to this day, but the ends don't justify the means. The ends never justify the means. They deserved to exercise their right to secede and fail.


I'd have to assume a weaker North would be more vulnerable to being taken over by foreign interests wouldn't you?...
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Post by K.Snyder »

Hoss;975510 wrote:

I think your exactly right, if we just do our jobs, and not try to makes things happen our way we'd be much more successful and pass on much better conditions to our children.


What about the children of slaves?...

I ask all,..would you or would you not wage war on the South to emancipate slavery?...
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K.Snyder;975514 wrote: I'd have to assume a weaker North would be more vulnerable to being taken over by foreign interests wouldn't you?...
Yes, of course weaker is more vulnerable, but I don't see your point.
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K.Snyder;975516 wrote: What about the children of slaves?...



I ask all,..would you or would you not wage war on the South to emancipate slavery?...
The Civil War was never about slavery, it was about states' right to secede from the Union. At least two states that fought for the North were slave states, if I recall correctly. Slavery was definitely part of the debate, but not the main reason of the war.
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Post by chonsigirl »

That is always the debatable aspect of the Civil War. For years you were taught in school that it was to end slavery, not about the right of states to leave the Union. It also makes a difference if you are looking at the Civil War through a pro-Union or pro-Confederate viewpoint.
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Post by spot »

I think one gets a clearer picture looking at what was said at the time, especially in the private diaries and letters of those concerned. The result's less clouded by interpretative preference on the part of subsequent authors.
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chonsigirl;975710 wrote: That is always the debatable aspect of the Civil War. For years you were taught in school that it was to end slavery, not about the right of states to leave the Union. It also makes a difference if you are looking at the Civil War through a pro-Union or pro-Confederate viewpoint.
I'm trying to look at it from a pro-Constitution viewpoint. I'm quickly coming to the opinion that our Constitution is nothing more than a piece of paper rolled up and put in a corner - never read, but sometimes mentioned in passing by legislators. The foundation of our society is being ignored, and that society is morphing out of all recognition as a result. I believe that morphing started with our Civil War, accellerated under various administrations (primarily FDR's) and continues today.



I'm thinking it may be past time to mourn our constitution and the society it represented.
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Hoss;975736 wrote: Wait a minute though, we've been over the end does not justify the means and I think it's obvious Lincoln was acting to preserve the union, maybe it is that by not allowing the south to leave the union, he was preserving what he thought was a greater command in our constitution by securing more equal rights for all men, slave and free. Maybe Lincoln was acting off of the constitution? Maybe he felt there was a conflict between those two things and he erred on the side that was more core to the constitutional?
But the fighting started first. The emancipation came later, and only for those who agreed to fight against the South. I might agree with you if the southern states had seceded because of the emacipation proclamation. Also, Lincoln violated the Constitution in other ways, such as supending habeas corpus, but I'd need a snorkel to go in any deeper than that, and have to cook breakfast for my beloved right now.
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Post by spot »

Hoss;975737 wrote: I agree with that generally, but I also write things in my journal that I feel that day, then don’t feel the same way and will write something different the next day, or a month later, or even a year later.


It still describes your motivation at the time though, doesn't it.
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Accountable;975703 wrote: Yes, of course weaker is more vulnerable, but I don't see your point.


A separated United States renders the the North weaker thus giving the North more incentive to keep the revenue taken in by the South ultimately deterring any foreign interests in claiming the land for themselves...Imperialism in those days was still quite prominent...It expresses motive...One that I find to be added incentive to a justified attack on the South in an attempt to abolish slavery...And yes I do feel that slavery is all that anyone seems to want to talk about in reference to the American Civil War but none can blame them considering I find it to be the most gratifying achievement within the entire conquest...

I ask all,..would you or would you not have waged war on the South to abolish slavery?...Or, do you consider the Souths' prevalence in slavery to be justification to wage war on the South?...
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Post by K.Snyder »

Accountable;975708 wrote: The Civil War was never about slavery, it was about states' right to secede from the Union. At least two states that fought for the North were slave states, if I recall correctly. Slavery was definitely part of the debate, but not the main reason of the war.


I'm asking for personal justification seeing as how it's already been agreed by most on this thread that secession is not due cause to wage war...
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K.Snyder;975873 wrote: A separates United States renders the the North weaker thus giving the North more incentive to keep the revenue taken in by the South ultimately deterring any foreign interests in claiming the and for themselves...Imperialism in those days was still quite prominent...It expresses motive...One that I find to be added incentive to a justified attack on the South in an attempt to abolish slaveryThe one flaw in your argument is that none of that was mentioned as justification to attack, only to prevent secession, as far as I know.K.Snyder wrote: ...And yes I do feel that slavery is all that anyone seems to want to talk about in reference to the American Civil War but none can blame them considering I find it to be the most gratifying achievement within the entire conquest...Again, the ends never, ever, justify the means. I don't care if they achieved benevolent magic and unlimited wish-granting for all.
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Accountable;975724 wrote: I'm trying to look at it from a pro-Constitution viewpoint. I'm quickly coming to the opinion that our Constitution is nothing more than a piece of paper rolled up and put in a corner - never read, but sometimes mentioned in passing by legislators. The foundation of our society is being ignored, and that society is morphing out of all recognition as a result. I believe that morphing started with our Civil War, accellerated under various administrations (primarily FDR's) and continues today.



I'm thinking it may be past time to mourn our constitution and the society it represented.


The Constitution is always "revised" within current legislation or court decisions. The original document has changed over time, not in the wording itself but interpretation. It was not primarily executive that changed it, although the set the pace. Congress and Supreme Court decisions are the main reason there are added viewpoints to what was in the original.

I like spot's idea of looking at primary sources, Calhoun would be a good one to start with. (do you want links or quotes from him, post if you want to)
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Post by spot »

chonsigirl;975954 wrote: I like spot's idea of looking at primary sources, Calhoun would be a good one to start with. (do you want links or quotes from him, post if you want to)All societies, Calhoun claimed, are ruled by an elite group which enjoys the fruits of the labor of a less-privileged group. But unlike in the North and in Europe, where the laboring classes were cast aside to die in poverty by the aristocracy when they became too old or sick to work, in the South slaves were cared for even when no longer useful:

"I may say with truth, that in few countries so much is left to the share of the laborer, and so little exacted from him, or where there is more kind attention paid to him in sickness or infirmities of age. Compare his condition with the tenants of the poor houses in the more civilized portions of Europe—look at the sick, and the old and infirm slave, on one hand, in the midst of his family and friends, under the kind superintending care of his master and mistress, and compare it with the forlorn and wretched condition of the pauper in the poorhouse." That Calhoun? 7th Vice President Calhoun? I think he was rose-tinting his speech!
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chonsigirl;975954 wrote: The Constitution is always "revised" within current legislation or court decisions. The original document has changed over time, not in the wording itself but interpretation. It was not primarily executive that changed it, although the set the pace. Congress and Supreme Court decisions are the main reason there are added viewpoints to what was in the original.



I like spot's idea of looking at primary sources, Calhoun would be a good one to start with. (do you want links or quotes from him, post if you want to)
Interpretation changed to something not remotely resembling the original in many respects, and the clause leaving most responsibilities - all operational responsibilities except for interstate - to the states is routinely ignored. The group that says it is a living document would rather create law through judicial edict rather than through amendment, as required. The group that says it is set in stone want to amend it to restrict the public rather the government (marriage amendment).



Yes, please. I'd like the links. :)
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Post by spot »

Hoss;976153 wrote: I think the slave trade was being abolished at the point of collection by other societies at the time. Slavery in the US was destined to collapse regardless of the war.


The British had outlawed the carrying of slaves in British registered ships in 1807 and had policed an embargo on their transportation for decades before the American Civil War. Slavery in the South had been self-perpetuating for a half century by the secession from the Union. Slaves by then were born in slavery, not imported. I'm sure that system could have been carried on indefinitely.
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Post by TheNewDG »

spot;976159 wrote: The British had outlawed the carrying of slaves in British registered ships in 1807 and had policed an embargo on their transportation for decades before the American Civil War. Slavery in the South had been self-perpetuating for a half century by the secession from the Union. Slaves by then were born in slavery, not imported. I'm sure that system could have been carried on indefinitely.


Did you see Amazing Grace?
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Post by spot »

TheNewDG;976160 wrote: Did you see Amazing Grace?


umm...

Amazing Grace (2006 film), directed by Michael Apted

Amazing Grace (2000 film), directed by Luis Mandoki

Amazing Grace (1974 film), directed by Stan Lathan

Amazing Grace and Chuck, 1987 film directed by Mike Newell

...well, no. None of them. I've been known to sing it when obliged. I can understand John Newton's perspective most of the way through it, I'm not sure I sympathize much with his position though. He's not just maudlin, he wallows in it. He knows the theology but he's almost proud of the extent and depth of his bygone sins.
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spot;976175 wrote: umm...

Amazing Grace (2006 film), directed by Michael Apted

Amazing Grace (2000 film), directed by Luis Mandoki

Amazing Grace (1974 film), directed by Stan Lathan

Amazing Grace and Chuck, 1987 film directed by Mike Newell

...well, no. None of them. I've been known to sing it when obliged. I can understand John Newton's perspective most of the way through it, I'm not sure I sympathize much with his position though. He's not just maudlin, he wallows in it. He knows the theology but he's almost proud of the extent and depth of his bygone sins.


I havent seen the newest one. PReviews look good though. I was going to ask if it was loosely based or followed closely the real story.

I'll check it out tonight perhaps.
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Post by spot »

Hoss;976187 wrote: But the most compelling reason for me not fighting the South is that I doubt I could fire on my own brothers.


It was an option, yes.During the American Civil War, the conscription law of the North provided the opportunity for religious objectors and others to buy their way out of the draft. Those who refused or could not afford that option were treated harshly under military law. Four thousand men served in the military as unarmed legal conscientious objectors.

http://www.peaceabbey.org/confcenter/coregistry.htm

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Hoss;976184 wrote: If I read this right, I think this article gives Abraham Lincoln the right to argue that the South had formed a new union, basically creating a new State within the Union’s territory. This article gives Congress that right, not the States.
Aha! You're a genius, and may be right, except that both the state legislature(s) and Congress must consent (which, btw, places Congress equal to but not superior to state legislatures). I've got to try & find out about the VA/West VA split, and whether they had congressional consensus.
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Hoss;976327 wrote: A genius he says :-3 I have got to get my mom to read this!:wah:



If they both have to agree, then in reality the State does not have the right to leave the union, just the right to petition to leave the union.
It looks that way.
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Hoss;976390 wrote: Now I have to rethink this whole thing. :-3
Me too. West Virginia did petition Congress after the greater state legislature agreed to split.

On May 29, 1862, Senator Waitman T. Willey presented a formal petition to the United States Senate for the admission of West Virginia to the Union. Willey's petition was referred to the Committee on Territories. Senator John Carlile, who was a member of the committee, was assigned the task of writing the statehood bill. On June 23, Benjamin Wade, who chaired the Committee on Territories, reported the bill to the Senate. Carlile had added fifteen counties, provided for gradual emancipation, and required a new constitutional convention. West Virginians, including his fellow senator, were stunned by Carlile's apparent change of heart regarding statehood.



When the bill was introduced, Senator Charles Sumner of Massachusetts called for an amendment requiring the emancipation of all slaves in West Virginia on July 4, 1863, but his proposal was defeated. Senator Willey then offered a substitute that called for the admission of West Virginia upon approval of gradual emancipation by the constitutional convention. Eventually, a compromise agreement resulted in the Willey Amendment, which provided for gradual emancipation. The Willey Amendment passed, and on July 14, 1862, the West Virginia statehood bill passed by a vote of 23-17, with eight abstentions.

LINK
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Post by chonsigirl »

Yes, the famous Sumner, known for the licking he received after his comments against slavery and the Kansas debate.

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Post by K.Snyder »

Accountable;975915 wrote: The one flaw in your argument is that none of that was mentioned as justification to attack, only to prevent secession, as far as I know.Again, the ends never, ever, justify the means. I don't care if they achieved benevolent magic and unlimited wish-granting for all.


The ends absolutely do justify the means rather in how it's done. (I'll accept this as my opinion with extreme emphasis I couldn't think of anything more justifyable than good)...
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Accountable;975915 wrote: The one flaw in your argument is that none of that was mentioned as justification to attack, only to prevent secession, as far as I know.


Well sure I just like to get a sense of logic before I start taking in ones' argument...

Motive is the key to everything. ;)...

























:yh_bigsmi...
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K.Snyder;976517 wrote: The ends absolutely do justify the means rather in how it's done. (I'll accept this as my opinion with extreme emphasis I couldn't think of anything more justifyable than good)...
What does "rather in how it's done" mean?
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Accountable;976686 wrote: What does "rather in how it's done" mean?


"It's not what you say, it's how you say it"...

Meaning it's impossible in my mind for an end result of good(Not trying to imply anything rather voicing my logic) to not be justified...What's left is if there were bad things being done to get a "good" result the sacrifice leading to said result is rendered not worth it...

It's a question of sacrifice in such instances and is left up to individuals to decide what is worth sacrificing for the betterment of society...My emphasis is in the technicality that if one has to question things been done to get a "good" result the sacrifices to get said result was not worth it at the same time upon any lack of question "a good result" becomes truly that,..a good result. Which means it has to have been done ethically and morally in all it's nature...
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Hoss;976843 wrote: Accountable,



Do you teach this to your students? My favorite teacher is my math teacher but it's because he is a history buff. Yesterday I brought this subject up to him and he is getting a few of his resources together for me to read through. I'm hoping he comes to the football party tonight so we can talk about it.



I'd love to sit in your class and have a discussion in a big group on this. I wonder what kids my age think about our current laws, how much they are influenced by situational ethics and the many laws we have that are repressive.



I want to contribute more but I need to learn more first.I teach the spirit of it, yes. My guys have special challenges controlling their behavior, making good decisions, and accepting responsibility for their actions. They're confused by the fog of circumstance. "I wouldn't have done that if she hadn't done this." "I tried to do it right, but I got mad." "It's not stealing if they have more than me." That sort of thing. I have a knack for cutting through the crap to expose the kernal, I guess you could say.
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