John Brown
John Brown
Is John Brown seen today as a hero in America?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Oscar Namechange
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John Brown
spot;1138557 wrote: Is John Brown seen today as a hero in America?
Are you refering to the John Brown who was hanged in 1859?
Are you refering to the John Brown who was hanged in 1859?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
John Brown
oscar;1138589 wrote: Are you refering to the John Brown who was hanged in 1859?
Perhaps the thread will be more interesting if other possibly-heroic-American-John-Browns are included in whatever responses arrive. I don't know of any.
Perhaps the thread will be more interesting if other possibly-heroic-American-John-Browns are included in whatever responses arrive. I don't know of any.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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chonsigirl
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John Brown
No, he is not seen as a hero. He advocated violence for the movement against slavery, and was active in Bloody Kansas prior to the events at Harper's Ferry.
I think as history is revised numerous times, the more peaceful movements towards ending of atrocities is seen more favorably.
We debated him many times around the grad round tables-yet what he did was only a miniscule act of violence when compared to the Civil War itself.
I think as history is revised numerous times, the more peaceful movements towards ending of atrocities is seen more favorably.
We debated him many times around the grad round tables-yet what he did was only a miniscule act of violence when compared to the Civil War itself.
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Oscar Namechange
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John Brown
spot;1138629 wrote: Perhaps the thread will be more interesting if other possibly-heroic-American-John-Browns are included in whatever responses arrive. I don't know of any.
OK...What about 'Crispus Attucks' ?
OK...What about 'Crispus Attucks' ?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
John Brown
chonsigirl;1138637 wrote: No, he is not seen as a hero. He advocated violence for the movement against slavery, and was active in Bloody Kansas prior to the events at Harper's Ferry.
I think as history is revised numerous times, the more peaceful movements towards ending of atrocities is seen more favorably.
We debated him many times around the grad round tables-yet what he did was only a miniscule act of violence when compared to the Civil War itself.
Your entire independence process involved civil insurrection and armed rebellion against the lawful government. In what way do the Founding Fathers differ from John Brown?
I think as history is revised numerous times, the more peaceful movements towards ending of atrocities is seen more favorably.
We debated him many times around the grad round tables-yet what he did was only a miniscule act of violence when compared to the Civil War itself.
Your entire independence process involved civil insurrection and armed rebellion against the lawful government. In what way do the Founding Fathers differ from John Brown?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
John Brown
spot;1138557 wrote: Is John Brown seen today as a hero in America?
Only students of, or those familiar with the American Civil War know who John Brown was. "John Brown's Body Lies a Moldering In the Grave" is a song that is not played, even during the American Civil Rights Movement. I have never heard him referred to as a hero by any group.
Only students of, or those familiar with the American Civil War know who John Brown was. "John Brown's Body Lies a Moldering In the Grave" is a song that is not played, even during the American Civil Rights Movement. I have never heard him referred to as a hero by any group.
John Brown
Lon;1138652 wrote: Only students of, or those familiar with the American Civil War know who John Brown was. "John Brown's Body Lies a Moldering In the Grave" is a song that is not played, even during the American Civil Rights Movement. I have never heard him referred to as a hero by any group.
That's an eye-opening post then. Thank you Lon, I had no idea.
That's an eye-opening post then. Thank you Lon, I had no idea.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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chonsigirl
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John Brown
spot;1138650 wrote: Your entire independence process involved civil insurrection and armed rebellion against the lawful government. In what way do the Founding Fathers differ from John Brown?
In the same manner as the European colonists took the land from the rightful owners......
Neither is correct procedure.
In the same manner as the European colonists took the land from the rightful owners......
Neither is correct procedure.
John Brown
chonsigirl;1138661 wrote: In the same manner as the European colonists took the land from the rightful owners......
Neither is correct procedure.
And yet I presume your Founding Fathers are regarded as heroes? If that's so, perhaps you can draw out the difference somehow, illuminate the gap between them.
Neither is correct procedure.
And yet I presume your Founding Fathers are regarded as heroes? If that's so, perhaps you can draw out the difference somehow, illuminate the gap between them.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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chonsigirl
- Posts: 33633
- Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:28 am
John Brown
Depends on what history book you are reading, spot.
Some refer to them as heroes, others tell of the faults and what could have been done.
When you deal with history, it is not an exact science. It is a matter of interpretation.
What is given to the masses is another matter. It is always amazing the lack of vital compenents of information in recounting historical events, biased towards a specific viewpoint. It is why I do not like to teach social studies in public schools. It may be politically correct, but it is biased in it's own right, and invald in the information left out.
AS far as a social/cultural phenomena, why they are considered heroes-it is recounting the events in a specific manner-the British are portrayed as the oppresors, the Americans as the heroes. All the countless multitude of people involved yet usually not mentioned-the women, the various ethnic groups, the economic reasons, yadda yadda, are considered small points of interest to scholars mainly. (not my favorite period of history, but I sat through the Revolutionary War classes, Federalism, Jacksonian Democracy, and the Civil War series as a grad student) You do hear both sides in the upper classes, and it is very interesting.
I choose to write about the losing side in most battles, the Native Americans. They lost no matter who the "conqueror" was, since they were not a consideration in the scheme of things.
Some refer to them as heroes, others tell of the faults and what could have been done.
When you deal with history, it is not an exact science. It is a matter of interpretation.
What is given to the masses is another matter. It is always amazing the lack of vital compenents of information in recounting historical events, biased towards a specific viewpoint. It is why I do not like to teach social studies in public schools. It may be politically correct, but it is biased in it's own right, and invald in the information left out.
AS far as a social/cultural phenomena, why they are considered heroes-it is recounting the events in a specific manner-the British are portrayed as the oppresors, the Americans as the heroes. All the countless multitude of people involved yet usually not mentioned-the women, the various ethnic groups, the economic reasons, yadda yadda, are considered small points of interest to scholars mainly. (not my favorite period of history, but I sat through the Revolutionary War classes, Federalism, Jacksonian Democracy, and the Civil War series as a grad student) You do hear both sides in the upper classes, and it is very interesting.
I choose to write about the losing side in most battles, the Native Americans. They lost no matter who the "conqueror" was, since they were not a consideration in the scheme of things.
John Brown
chonsigirl;1138670 wrote: AS far as a social/cultural phenomena, why they are considered heroes-it is recounting the events in a specific manner-the British are portrayed as the oppresors, the Americans as the heroes.Then that's where we might like to focus for a while. Why has that happened in that instance but not in the case of John Brown? Again, I'm looking for the difference in perception which has brought one small group adulation and the other ignominy for behaving in a very similar way.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
John Brown
In the north eastern part of America he was seen as a hero especially because he denounced slavery but in the southern states especially Virginia and south of that state he was seen as a traitor.
John Brown
qsducks;1138675 wrote: In the north eastern part of America he was seen as a hero especially because he denounced slavery but in the southern states especially Virginia and south of that state he was seen as a traitor.
That's why I used the words "seen today" in the question "Is John Brown seen today as a hero in America?". What he was seen as at the time is easily read about. What he's seen as now is far less obvious, I'm asking so I can find out the answer.
That's why I used the words "seen today" in the question "Is John Brown seen today as a hero in America?". What he was seen as at the time is easily read about. What he's seen as now is far less obvious, I'm asking so I can find out the answer.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
John Brown
spot;1138679 wrote: That's why I used the words "seen today" in the question "Is John Brown seen today as a hero in America?". What he was seen as at the time is easily read about. What he's seen as now is far less obvious, I'm asking so I can find out the answer.
Seen today? He's just another John Brown on the streets. Troublesome though, as the schools don't really teach about him. We are in luck over here though as February is Black History month and my children get a little history. You know, you just gave me a fantastic idea....the History channel has the Civil War on tv every morning around 7am. Thankyou Spot, I believe you just opened my eyes to a fantastic experience for my kids.:-4
Seen today? He's just another John Brown on the streets. Troublesome though, as the schools don't really teach about him. We are in luck over here though as February is Black History month and my children get a little history. You know, you just gave me a fantastic idea....the History channel has the Civil War on tv every morning around 7am. Thankyou Spot, I believe you just opened my eyes to a fantastic experience for my kids.:-4
John Brown
I disagree with Chronsgirl about heroes of the American Revolution. Generally speaking, yes they are regarded as heroes, rightly or wrongly. Paul Revere, John Paul Jones, Patrick Henry, Aaron Burr (the traitor). Even the Marquis de Lafayette is considered a hero of the American Revolution.
John Brown
spot;1138673 wrote: Then that's where we might like to focus for a while. Why has that happened in that instance but not in the case of John Brown? Again, I'm looking for the difference in perception which has brought one small group adulation and the other ignominy for behaving in a very similar way.
I think the answer might lie in the scope, not the cause. Both were just causes, but the revolutionaries were many and John Brown just one. If there would have been as many John Brown's in the American Civil War as HEROES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION I'm sure it would be a different story.
I think the answer might lie in the scope, not the cause. Both were just causes, but the revolutionaries were many and John Brown just one. If there would have been as many John Brown's in the American Civil War as HEROES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION I'm sure it would be a different story.
John Brown
spot;1138673 wrote: Then that's where we might like to focus for a while. Why has that happened in that instance but not in the case of John Brown? Again, I'm looking for the difference in perception which has brought one small group adulation and the other ignominy for behaving in a very similar way.
I would have thought the main difference is he didn't succeed the founding fathers did.
I would have thought the main difference is he didn't succeed the founding fathers did.
John Brown
gmc;1138849 wrote: I would have thought the main difference is he didn't succeed the founding fathers did.
Surely he did succeed. His hanging more than any other event triggered the American Civil War by the degree of intransigence he inspired in the North. He killed maybe two thirds of a million people from beyond the grave initiating a process which might, just possibly, result some day in equal prospects for both black and white in the United States.
Not many people find themselves with the choice of destroying slavery as an institution in the land or standing back and remaining a peaceable uncontentious sheep farmer. It's an act he undertook knowing he was likely to die in the process and take most of his family with him. How can anyone look at the facts and not regard the man as heroic? Classrooms teach Harriet Tubman's actions as heroic and her verdict on John Brown was that "he done more in dying, than 100 men would in living".
John Brown provided the backbone which brought the North up to scratch when Lincoln demanded a conclusion.
Surely he did succeed. His hanging more than any other event triggered the American Civil War by the degree of intransigence he inspired in the North. He killed maybe two thirds of a million people from beyond the grave initiating a process which might, just possibly, result some day in equal prospects for both black and white in the United States.
Not many people find themselves with the choice of destroying slavery as an institution in the land or standing back and remaining a peaceable uncontentious sheep farmer. It's an act he undertook knowing he was likely to die in the process and take most of his family with him. How can anyone look at the facts and not regard the man as heroic? Classrooms teach Harriet Tubman's actions as heroic and her verdict on John Brown was that "he done more in dying, than 100 men would in living".
John Brown provided the backbone which brought the North up to scratch when Lincoln demanded a conclusion.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
John Brown
spot;1138875 wrote: Surely he did succeed. His hanging more than any other event triggered the American Civil War by the degree of intransigence he inspired in the North. He killed maybe two thirds of a million people from beyond the grave initiating a process which might, just possibly, result some day in equal prospects for both black and white in the United States.
Not many people find themselves with the choice of destroying slavery as an institution in the land or standing back and remaining a peaceable uncontentious sheep farmer. It's one he took knowing he was likely to die in the process and take most of his family with him. How can anyone look at the facts and not regard the man as heroic? Classrooms teach Harriet Tubman's actions as heroic and her verdict on John Brown was that "he done more in dying, than 100 men would in living".
John Brown provided the backbone which brought the North up to scratch when Lincoln demanded a conclusion.
He failed in that the armed uprising he expected didn't ensue-although I take your point about the effect of his death. It's not actually an area of American history I know much about. Maybe it's because he was white:-2
Not many people find themselves with the choice of destroying slavery as an institution in the land or standing back and remaining a peaceable uncontentious sheep farmer. It's one he took knowing he was likely to die in the process and take most of his family with him. How can anyone look at the facts and not regard the man as heroic? Classrooms teach Harriet Tubman's actions as heroic and her verdict on John Brown was that "he done more in dying, than 100 men would in living".
John Brown provided the backbone which brought the North up to scratch when Lincoln demanded a conclusion.
He failed in that the armed uprising he expected didn't ensue-although I take your point about the effect of his death. It's not actually an area of American history I know much about. Maybe it's because he was white:-2
John Brown
I have no idea who he is. I'm just sitting here eating popcorn. Literally.
John Brown
sunny104;1138996 wrote: I have no idea who he is. I'm just sitting here eating popcorn. Literally.
John Brown’s body lies a'mouldering in the grave,
While weep the sons of bondage whom he ventured all to save;
But though he lost his life while struggling for the slave,
His soul is marching on.
John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true and brave,
And Kansas knows his valour when he fought her rights to save;
Now, though the grass grows green above his grave,
His soul is marching on.
He captured Harper’s Ferry, with his nineteen men so few,
And frightened "Old Virginny" till she trembled through and through;
They hung him for a traitor, they themselves the traitor crew,
But his soul is marching on.
Glory, Glory hallelujah! Glory, Glory hallelujah!
Glory, Glory hallelujah! His soul is marching on!
He was in many respects the Timothy McVeigh of his time.
John Brown’s body lies a'mouldering in the grave,
While weep the sons of bondage whom he ventured all to save;
But though he lost his life while struggling for the slave,
His soul is marching on.
John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true and brave,
And Kansas knows his valour when he fought her rights to save;
Now, though the grass grows green above his grave,
His soul is marching on.
He captured Harper’s Ferry, with his nineteen men so few,
And frightened "Old Virginny" till she trembled through and through;
They hung him for a traitor, they themselves the traitor crew,
But his soul is marching on.
Glory, Glory hallelujah! Glory, Glory hallelujah!
Glory, Glory hallelujah! His soul is marching on!
He was in many respects the Timothy McVeigh of his time.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
John Brown
sunny104;1138996 wrote: I have no idea who he is. I'm just sitting here eating popcorn. Literally.
What a terrible confession to make. Are you not ashamed that two foreigners know more about such a seminal event in our own history and you've not even heard of him?:sneaky:-and you from texas as well. I thought you were all patriots there. Good grief I even know the alamo was where John Wayne won texas it's freedom from the mexicans.
What a terrible confession to make. Are you not ashamed that two foreigners know more about such a seminal event in our own history and you've not even heard of him?:sneaky:-and you from texas as well. I thought you were all patriots there. Good grief I even know the alamo was where John Wayne won texas it's freedom from the mexicans.
John Brown
gmc;1139015 wrote: What a terrible confession to make. Are you not ashamed that two foreigners know more about such a seminal event in our own history and you've not even heard of him?:sneaky:-and you from texas as well. I thought you were all patriots there. Good grief I even know the alamo was where John Wayne won texas it's freedom from the mexicans.
:yh_rotfl
:yh_rotfl
John Brown
Spot, you would think he would be considered a hero of the enslaved blacks because he was a catalyst in the beginning of the Civil War. I think that if he had been black himself he would be considered a hero. I think the U.S. administration would have preferred a non violent compromise to the slavery problem but John Brown's attempt to start an armed slavery uprising and the secession of the States made a non violent compromise impossible.
John Brown
YZGI;1139019 wrote: I think the U.S. administration would have preferred a non violent compromise to the slavery problem but John Brown's attempt to start an armed slavery uprising and the secession of the States made a non violent compromise impossible.
Given that the US Administration took another hundred years to even begin to implement colour-blind civil rights I'm surprised John Brown doesn't have a National Day every bit as well celebrated as Martin Luther King's, neither of them have won their battle yet.
Given that the US Administration took another hundred years to even begin to implement colour-blind civil rights I'm surprised John Brown doesn't have a National Day every bit as well celebrated as Martin Luther King's, neither of them have won their battle yet.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
John Brown
spot;1139032 wrote: Given that the US Administration took another hundred years to even begin to implement colour-blind civil rights I'm surprised John Brown doesn't have a National Day every bit as well celebrated as Martin Luther King's, neither of them have won their battle yet.
Oh they have won some battles, just maybe not the war yet.
Oh they have won some battles, just maybe not the war yet.
John Brown
YZGI;1139034 wrote: Oh they have won some battles, just maybe not the war yet.
That's a very good point and I'm grateful for the correction.
That's a very good point and I'm grateful for the correction.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
along-for-the-ride
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John Brown
At that point in history, could a black man have been as effective in trying to destroy slavery? Would he have been "listened to"? Maybe because John Brown was white, he was able to touch some emotions.
Life is a Highway. Let's share the Commute.
John Brown
along-for-the-ride;1139373 wrote: At that point in history, could a black man have been as effective in trying to destroy slavery? Would he have been "listened to"? Maybe because John Brown was white, he was able to touch some emotions.
Frederick Douglass was well acquainted with John Brown. He was listened to by the Northern Intelligentsia but they're not the ones who enlisted and fought when the Civil War began. I think John Brown's death had more influence over most Northerners than Frederick Douglass' pamphlets and books and speeches. I'm not sure how to demonstrate that I'm right in my guess, maybe chonsi could suggest how to test it?
Frederick Douglass was well acquainted with John Brown. He was listened to by the Northern Intelligentsia but they're not the ones who enlisted and fought when the Civil War began. I think John Brown's death had more influence over most Northerners than Frederick Douglass' pamphlets and books and speeches. I'm not sure how to demonstrate that I'm right in my guess, maybe chonsi could suggest how to test it?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
John Brown
spot;1139709 wrote: Frederick Douglass was well acquainted with John Brown. He was listened to by the Northern Intelligentsia but they're not the ones who enlisted and fought when the Civil War began. I think John Brown's death had more influence over most Northerners than Frederick Douglass' pamphlets and books and speeches. I'm not sure how to demonstrate that I'm right in my guess, maybe chonsi could suggest how to test it?
Harriet Beecher Stowe's book "Uncle Tom's Cabin" written in 1852 had a huge impact on Northern Attitude towards slavery as well as treatment of American Indians. More of an impact I believe, than John Brown, but how do we measure it?
Harriet Beecher Stowe's book "Uncle Tom's Cabin" written in 1852 had a huge impact on Northern Attitude towards slavery as well as treatment of American Indians. More of an impact I believe, than John Brown, but how do we measure it?