how interesting.
:yh_flower
Man's Right to Choose
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Man's Right to Choose
almostfamous;678756 wrote: gees, i'm starting to sound pro-choice here:-3
how interesting.
:yh_flower
how interesting.
:yh_flower
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Man's Right to Choose
Accountable;678757 wrote: But (s)he IS wanted. That's the point.
No...the point is the mother still has to give birth whether she wants to or not. That is wrong. That trumps all else.
No...the point is the mother still has to give birth whether she wants to or not. That is wrong. That trumps all else.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Man's Right to Choose
Accountable;678753 wrote: So you would prevent anyone from a right they deserve because someone might abuse it?? Because some are untrustworthy, all must not be trusted??
That's an unacceptable position on just about any issue I could name. Why should it be acceptable in this one?
Which right are we talking here?
Not all the rights are the same or warrant the same consideration.
I do not feel a father's right to "his" child means she should give it to him. Because she conceives, carries and creates it, it is still more her child than his and the final say should be hers alone. IMO.
That's an unacceptable position on just about any issue I could name. Why should it be acceptable in this one?
Which right are we talking here?
Not all the rights are the same or warrant the same consideration.
I do not feel a father's right to "his" child means she should give it to him. Because she conceives, carries and creates it, it is still more her child than his and the final say should be hers alone. IMO.
Man's Right to Choose
RedGlitter;678812 wrote: Which right are we talking here?
Not all the rights are the same or warrant the same consideration.
I do not feel a father's right to "his" child means she should give it to him. Because she conceives, carries and creates it, it is still more her child than his and the final say should be hers alone. IMO.
You have to be kidding me. It's both their child equally irregardless of who has given birth. I have never heard anyone ever say something like that. I bet I couldn't use that in court to lower child support payments.
Not all the rights are the same or warrant the same consideration.
I do not feel a father's right to "his" child means she should give it to him. Because she conceives, carries and creates it, it is still more her child than his and the final say should be hers alone. IMO.
You have to be kidding me. It's both their child equally irregardless of who has given birth. I have never heard anyone ever say something like that. I bet I couldn't use that in court to lower child support payments.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Man's Right to Choose
YZGI;678820 wrote: You have to be kidding me. It's both their child equally irregardless of who has given birth. I have never heard anyone ever say something like that. I bet I couldn't use that in court to lower child support payments.
No YZ, I'm not kidding. I meant every word. That's just the way that it is. (IMO)
No YZ, I'm not kidding. I meant every word. That's just the way that it is. (IMO)
Man's Right to Choose
RedGlitter;678824 wrote: No YZ, I'm not kidding. I meant every word. That's just the way that it is. (IMO)
It takes both sexes to create a child. Both have their own functions and capabilities. Just because they are different doesn't make one more important than the other, just differerent. Women can't have or make babies without men, so how can it be claimed that it is more the womans child than the mans?
It takes both sexes to create a child. Both have their own functions and capabilities. Just because they are different doesn't make one more important than the other, just differerent. Women can't have or make babies without men, so how can it be claimed that it is more the womans child than the mans?
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Man's Right to Choose
YZGI;678828 wrote: It takes both sexes to create a child. Both have their own functions and capabilities. Just because they are different doesn't make one more important than the other, just differerent. Women can't have or make babies without men, so how can it be claimed that it is more the womans child than the mans?
Because her body is in possession of the child.
If it were the man carrying it, then I'd say he'd have the final say.
I don't know how to be clearer. Yes it does take two but the man's function is decidedly less than what the woman has to go through. That's not his fault, that's how it is.
I'm not going to get personal on anyone and open up my business for all to see but like probably everyone in this thread, I have my own reasons for believing the way I do. I don't want to try to change anybody's mind on this, nor do I expect to. I'm just here to be the devil's advocate.
Because her body is in possession of the child.
If it were the man carrying it, then I'd say he'd have the final say.
I don't know how to be clearer. Yes it does take two but the man's function is decidedly less than what the woman has to go through. That's not his fault, that's how it is.
I'm not going to get personal on anyone and open up my business for all to see but like probably everyone in this thread, I have my own reasons for believing the way I do. I don't want to try to change anybody's mind on this, nor do I expect to. I'm just here to be the devil's advocate.
Man's Right to Choose
Is same-sex conception possible?
Yes, researchers are working on methods using genetically engineered stem cells to produce sperm from a woman and eggs from a man. They have already created a mouse named Kaguya in 2004 that has two mothers and no father. Scientists created her in Japan in 2004, combining one mouse's egg with another mouse's genetically modified egg. No sperm was used.
To create her, the scientists created over 450 embryos, implanted 371, and 10 mice were born alive. Kaguya was the only mouse that came out healthy enough to survive to adulthood, the others all died from genetic defects.
Read more about Kaguya here.
This is much riskier than IVF, which is still natural egg and sperm conception, and even cloning, because same-sex conception requires changing the DNA of one of the partners and seeing if it works. Trying this in humans would be completely unethical and unnecessary and waste our resources at a time when people still cannot get basic health care. Research should be stopped.
Read about the ethics of same-sex conception here, here, and here.
Incredibly, however, it is currently legal, and there are people who feel same-sex couples not only have the right to attempt to conceive children together, but that we have an obligation to continue to fund research to make it "safe and affordable" for them. One New Jersey researcher quoted in GayCityNews said he expects to see children come from stem cell derived gametes in "three to five years" if the research continues at the present pace! (That article has been removed from their site, but it's archived on the web.archive.org site.) Another researcher in Britian working on stem cell derived gametes also said it "should take around three to five years of experiments."
They are proceeding recklessly, spending freely, putting children at risk, expoiting same-sex couples, and opening the door to a Brave New World of genetic engineering and manufactured children.
To protect children, as well as protect everyone's natural conception rights and preserve human dignity, we need a law that says children can only be conceived by the union of a woman's egg and a man's sperm. Conceiving children together should not be a right of same-sex couples. Same-sex couples should have all of the other rights of marriage in the form of civil unions. Marriages should continue to guarantee conception rights using the couples own gametes.
Yes, researchers are working on methods using genetically engineered stem cells to produce sperm from a woman and eggs from a man. They have already created a mouse named Kaguya in 2004 that has two mothers and no father. Scientists created her in Japan in 2004, combining one mouse's egg with another mouse's genetically modified egg. No sperm was used.
To create her, the scientists created over 450 embryos, implanted 371, and 10 mice were born alive. Kaguya was the only mouse that came out healthy enough to survive to adulthood, the others all died from genetic defects.
Read more about Kaguya here.
This is much riskier than IVF, which is still natural egg and sperm conception, and even cloning, because same-sex conception requires changing the DNA of one of the partners and seeing if it works. Trying this in humans would be completely unethical and unnecessary and waste our resources at a time when people still cannot get basic health care. Research should be stopped.
Read about the ethics of same-sex conception here, here, and here.
Incredibly, however, it is currently legal, and there are people who feel same-sex couples not only have the right to attempt to conceive children together, but that we have an obligation to continue to fund research to make it "safe and affordable" for them. One New Jersey researcher quoted in GayCityNews said he expects to see children come from stem cell derived gametes in "three to five years" if the research continues at the present pace! (That article has been removed from their site, but it's archived on the web.archive.org site.) Another researcher in Britian working on stem cell derived gametes also said it "should take around three to five years of experiments."
They are proceeding recklessly, spending freely, putting children at risk, expoiting same-sex couples, and opening the door to a Brave New World of genetic engineering and manufactured children.
To protect children, as well as protect everyone's natural conception rights and preserve human dignity, we need a law that says children can only be conceived by the union of a woman's egg and a man's sperm. Conceiving children together should not be a right of same-sex couples. Same-sex couples should have all of the other rights of marriage in the form of civil unions. Marriages should continue to guarantee conception rights using the couples own gametes.
Man's Right to Choose
RedGlitter;678832 wrote: Because her body is in possession of the child.
If it were the man carrying it, then I'd say he'd have the final say.
I don't know how to be clearer. Yes it does take two but the man's function is decidedly less than what the woman has to go through. That's not his fault, that's how it is.
I'm not going to get personal on anyone and open up my business for all to see but like probably everyone in this thread, I have my own reasons for believing the way I do. I don't want to try to change anybody's mind on this, nor do I expect to. I'm just here to be the devil's advocate.
So, if we use your logic. If a couple were in a relationship and the man was the better hunter he should get the most food? If the man makes more money he should get more. If the man protected his woman what is the payout for that?
If it were the man carrying it, then I'd say he'd have the final say.
I don't know how to be clearer. Yes it does take two but the man's function is decidedly less than what the woman has to go through. That's not his fault, that's how it is.
I'm not going to get personal on anyone and open up my business for all to see but like probably everyone in this thread, I have my own reasons for believing the way I do. I don't want to try to change anybody's mind on this, nor do I expect to. I'm just here to be the devil's advocate.
So, if we use your logic. If a couple were in a relationship and the man was the better hunter he should get the most food? If the man makes more money he should get more. If the man protected his woman what is the payout for that?
Man's Right to Choose
YZGI;678836 wrote: So, if we use your logic. If a couple were in a relationship and the man was the better hunter he should get the most food? If the man makes more money he should get more. If the man protected his woman what is the payout for that?
You know full well that isn't going to work. Our position has been clearly outlined. I'll just get a dog. Why would I even want to raise a child with a gender that has exhibited so much selfishness. All I see in the end of it all is me, me, me.
Good thing I know better than to stereotype all women based on a few of the people around here.
You know full well that isn't going to work. Our position has been clearly outlined. I'll just get a dog. Why would I even want to raise a child with a gender that has exhibited so much selfishness. All I see in the end of it all is me, me, me.
Good thing I know better than to stereotype all women based on a few of the people around here.
Life ain't linear.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Man's Right to Choose
YZGI;678836 wrote: So, if we use your logic. If a couple were in a relationship and the man was the better hunter he should get the most food? If the man makes more money he should get more. If the man protected his woman what is the payout for that?
Ok, why would you automatically paint all other situations with the same logic brush? Not you personally YZ, several have done that. It's not all across the board, every situation warrants a fresh look on its own.
Ok, why would you automatically paint all other situations with the same logic brush? Not you personally YZ, several have done that. It's not all across the board, every situation warrants a fresh look on its own.
-
WonderWendy3
- Posts: 12412
- Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:44 am
Man's Right to Choose
Well, my opinion is that if the man wants a part of his childs life....thats the way its SUPPOSED to be. I would LOVE to have a man that did his part in his childrens lives. I believe that it took 2 to bring that baby to this world, should take two to raise it.
As for Abortion, not even a option in my eyes, so basically the choice to me would be pink or blue room in the house???
As for Abortion, not even a option in my eyes, so basically the choice to me would be pink or blue room in the house???
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Man's Right to Choose
KB.;678854 wrote: You know full well that isn't going to work. Our position has been clearly outlined. I'll just get a dog. Why would I even want to raise a child with a gender that has exhibited so much selfishness. All I see in the end of it all is me, me, me.
Good thing I know better than to stereotype all women based on a few of the people around here.
Well after that garbage you wrote last night, KB, it's kinda mutual I think. But let's try to keep it neutral.
I think the notion that a woman should somehow be forced to bear a child she doesn't want is ridiculously selfish. Fortunately not all men are like that.
Good thing I know better than to stereotype all women based on a few of the people around here.
Well after that garbage you wrote last night, KB, it's kinda mutual I think. But let's try to keep it neutral.
I think the notion that a woman should somehow be forced to bear a child she doesn't want is ridiculously selfish. Fortunately not all men are like that.
Man's Right to Choose
KB.;678854 wrote: You know full well that isn't going to work. Our position has been clearly outlined. I'll just get a dog. Why would I even want to raise a child with a gender that has exhibited so much selfishness. All I see in the end of it all is me, me, me.
Good thing I know better than to stereotype all women based on a few of the people around here.
I feel you brother. But trust me there are good women out there to be with. I have been married 28 yrs now and I couldn't ask for more.
Good thing I know better than to stereotype all women based on a few of the people around here.
I feel you brother. But trust me there are good women out there to be with. I have been married 28 yrs now and I couldn't ask for more.
Man's Right to Choose
RedGlitter;678862 wrote: Well after that garbage you wrote last night, KB, it's kinda mutual I think. But let's try to keep it neutral.
I think the notion that a woman should somehow be forced to bear a child she doesn't want is ridiculously selfish. Fortunately not all men are like that.
i totally see where your coming from red
but it seems so unfair if a woman murders a guys unborn child against his wishes that he may want more than anything
there is no compromise if your a woman you can do it
if your a guy its outa your hands you just got to live with it :-5
i can see both points of view
I think the notion that a woman should somehow be forced to bear a child she doesn't want is ridiculously selfish. Fortunately not all men are like that.
i totally see where your coming from red
but it seems so unfair if a woman murders a guys unborn child against his wishes that he may want more than anything
there is no compromise if your a woman you can do it
if your a guy its outa your hands you just got to live with it :-5
i can see both points of view
Man's Right to Choose
WonderWendy3;678860 wrote: Well, my opinion is that if the man wants a part of his childs life....thats the way its SUPPOSED to be. I would LOVE to have a man that did his part in his childrens lives. I believe that it took 2 to bring that baby to this world, should take two to raise it.
As for Abortion, not even a option in my eyes, so basically the choice to me would be pink or blue room in the house???
Amen.
As for Abortion, not even a option in my eyes, so basically the choice to me would be pink or blue room in the house???
Amen.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Man's Right to Choose
I don't know Jimbo, we're getting in deeper now. I do see abortion as killing something but I don't see it as murder or the worst that could be done. Maybe that's for a different thread though.
I have always seen that women have the hardest role in life. We get screwed over, we get shat on, we get less money for harder work, we are baby factories, any port in a storm and the men tend to have more freedom. It has been consistently shown to me. I don't think it's too unfair to give the woman her due.
I am not incapable of seeing both sides of this but I side more with mine.
I have always seen that women have the hardest role in life. We get screwed over, we get shat on, we get less money for harder work, we are baby factories, any port in a storm and the men tend to have more freedom. It has been consistently shown to me. I don't think it's too unfair to give the woman her due.
I am not incapable of seeing both sides of this but I side more with mine.
Man's Right to Choose
I had a friend that didn't want anymore children, had 2 by the time she was 22, she meet a new guy and they was together for 7 months when she found out she was pregnant. She was horrified and couldn't understand 'how' it had happened, she was adamant that she could not go through another pregnancy as she had preeclampsia with both pregnancies and nearly lost her daughter and her own life with the 2nd, anyway after much discussion the BF persuaded her to 'keep' the baby, he was going to take a very active role, personally and financially with the baby. When she was 4 months pregnant he confesses that he had been pin pricking the condoms as he wanted a child, as soon as my friend developed preeclampsia at 6 months and was told to bed rest, he decided that he would rather be in a pub than helping look after her 2 daughters and herself.
She had to have the baby at 32 weeks by C-Section and that 5hit couldn't even get up the hospital to support her, her little boy is now 2 years old and has seen his Dad 3 times, he is not contributing to his little boys up bringing either.
If I was able to get pregnant and Jim said that he would raise the child, I would not have a problem with that at all, I would feel good knowing that my child had a great father
She had to have the baby at 32 weeks by C-Section and that 5hit couldn't even get up the hospital to support her, her little boy is now 2 years old and has seen his Dad 3 times, he is not contributing to his little boys up bringing either.
If I was able to get pregnant and Jim said that he would raise the child, I would not have a problem with that at all, I would feel good knowing that my child had a great father
I am nobody..nobody is perfect...therefore I must be Perfect!
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Man's Right to Choose
What I think it amounts to is men whining when they don't get their way. Well God DAMN, men are always getting their freakin' way, so let us have this one big thing.
Remember before DNA happened and there was that "pay to play" attitude and it was not liked but respected anyway? Well that's what I want to see here.
Maybe if this kid grew up in a Petri dish and all I had to do was say "Here" and hand it over I might do that. Might. But to go through hell because you say my body and pain isn't important compared to the child is pretty freaking insensitive and tells me a lot about where my kid would be going. Ain't happening.
I'm still just as angry as everyone else here. Kinda warm in here, yes?
Oh ACC!! Referee please! :wah:
Remember before DNA happened and there was that "pay to play" attitude and it was not liked but respected anyway? Well that's what I want to see here.
Maybe if this kid grew up in a Petri dish and all I had to do was say "Here" and hand it over I might do that. Might. But to go through hell because you say my body and pain isn't important compared to the child is pretty freaking insensitive and tells me a lot about where my kid would be going. Ain't happening.
I'm still just as angry as everyone else here. Kinda warm in here, yes?
Oh ACC!! Referee please! :wah:
-
talkingamoeba
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:24 am
Man's Right to Choose
Now for my 2 cents. To pluck out a specific situation and have a specific answer that works in every situation just isn't possible when dealing with the number of variables we're talking about here. When each person has their own way of thinking finding agreement is kind of like the silly card game my kids make me play where you have the pairs of cards that match and you have for example 4 or 5 billion pairs of cards all mixed together then laid out face down on the table and you pick for the mate to the one you just flipped over. The more variety the less likelyhood of a match. My point? I have lived irresponsibly in the past and if any of those women had been impregnated by me when I had given no illusion of commitment, then yes she choses, but I can't condone the killing of that child. What led to the pregnancy was a choice by 2 people (I'm assuming consentual sex) In an ideal world that choice would be preceeded by the thought and foresight to understand the possible outcomes of the act. Mating is in all seriousness for making babies, there are alot of ways for pleasure that don't involve a baby as one of the possible outcomes. My wife is now pregnant with our 5th child. Our youngest is 5. My wife did not "want" any more children but when we laid down together we knew what was possible and we will care for this child, not end its existence. But if I walked then it would be entirely her choice to carry the baby or not. But as long as I'm here it's my choice too. If I was a worthless piece of *****(you be quiet in the back) then again the mother has to decide what is right. See, you don't have to agree with me that's OK, this is like any equation with variables, we can keep plugging stuff in the empty spaces and we're going to get different results, it's alright. Accountable is in my opinion right in that we should all of us, consider what the implications of our actions might be, and hopefully before we act.
Sometimes I go about
In pity for myself,
And all the while,
A Great Wind carries me,
Across the sky.
-Ojibwe Saying
In the begining,
Well I don't really Know:-2
After that
Any Thing is possible
-Me
In pity for myself,
And all the while,
A Great Wind carries me,
Across the sky.
-Ojibwe Saying
In the begining,
Well I don't really Know:-2
After that
Any Thing is possible
-Me
Man's Right to Choose
RedGlitter;678302 wrote: I maintain that the mother retains the most choice in the matter as she is the one conceiving, carrying, using her body's system to form it into a proper human being and ultimately delivering. Not to mention most of the raising will fall to her.
And no way should she be forced to have a child because the father wants it. Until he can have his own, he must acquiesce to the mother's wants. IMO.
IMO................ I maintain (again)
"the only people that SUPPORT an abortion are people that were NEVER aborted............."
Were you ever aborted Red?
If so TELL us ALL about how it went and why you supported being dumped...................!!
I wait with abated breath
And no way should she be forced to have a child because the father wants it. Until he can have his own, he must acquiesce to the mother's wants. IMO.
IMO................ I maintain (again)
"the only people that SUPPORT an abortion are people that were NEVER aborted............."
Were you ever aborted Red?
If so TELL us ALL about how it went and why you supported being dumped...................!!
I wait with abated breath
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Man's Right to Choose
BTS;679042 wrote: IMO................ I maintain (again)
"the only people that SUPPORT an abortion are people that were NEVER aborted............."
Were you ever aborted Red?
If so TELL us ALL about how it went and why you supported being dumped...................!!
I wait with abated breath
BTS, don't be an ass. Or rather go ahead, it's a free country. But don't expect me to flatter you until you get a new posting style.
"the only people that SUPPORT an abortion are people that were NEVER aborted............."
Were you ever aborted Red?
If so TELL us ALL about how it went and why you supported being dumped...................!!
I wait with abated breath
BTS, don't be an ass. Or rather go ahead, it's a free country. But don't expect me to flatter you until you get a new posting style.
Man's Right to Choose
RedGlitter;679043 wrote: BTS, don't be an ass. Or rather go ahead, it's a free country. But don't expect me to flatter you until you get a new posting style.
Originally Posted by BTS
IMO................ I maintain (again)
"the only people that SUPPORT an abortion are people that were NEVER aborted............."
Were you ever aborted Red?
If so TELL us ALL about how it went and why you supported being dumped...................!!
I wait with abated breath
Not askin ta be flattered....... Just wantin an answer..
to the question..........
Were you EVER aborted glitter?
Originally Posted by BTS
IMO................ I maintain (again)
"the only people that SUPPORT an abortion are people that were NEVER aborted............."
Were you ever aborted Red?
If so TELL us ALL about how it went and why you supported being dumped...................!!
I wait with abated breath
Not askin ta be flattered....... Just wantin an answer..
to the question..........
Were you EVER aborted glitter?
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Man's Right to Choose
BTS;679045 wrote: Originally Posted by BTS
IMO................ I maintain (again)
"the only people that SUPPORT an abortion are people that were NEVER aborted............."
Were you ever aborted Red?
If so TELL us ALL about how it went and why you supported being dumped...................!!
I wait with abated breath
Not askin ta be flattered....... Just wantin an answer..
to the question..........
Were you EVER aborted glitter?
:wah: :wah: :wah:
IMO................ I maintain (again)
"the only people that SUPPORT an abortion are people that were NEVER aborted............."
Were you ever aborted Red?
If so TELL us ALL about how it went and why you supported being dumped...................!!
I wait with abated breath
Not askin ta be flattered....... Just wantin an answer..
to the question..........
Were you EVER aborted glitter?
:wah: :wah: :wah:
Man's Right to Choose
This is a hot topic. Here are my thoughts and I hope I don’t offend anyone.
It is about responsibility. The question about an unwanted pregnancy should not when pregnant, it starts with the sex, Sex can lead to pregnancy.
The issue with the argument ‘it’s my body, you can’t tell me what to do’ approach to this topic is flawed, this is why.
For years women have been pushing men to take more responsibility with regards to raising children. I now personally know ‘stay at home’ dads. In my father’s generation, it was embarrassing for a man to be seen pushing a baby stroller. Men are more involved in the raising of children than probably ever before. But, if a woman does not want the child, suddenly the father has no say in the matter? The message there is, ‘you are not responsible’, it the woman’s body, it is her baby, not ours.
If a woman wants an abortion, and the man wants the child, but the woman using her argument that the man has no say in the business goes off to get an abortion. Then let’s say on her way she changes her mind and decides to keep the child. Is the man now responsible for the child?? Is it now: ‘this is your baby I am carrying’ ‘you got me pregnant’ ‘this is what you did to me’ ‘you are the father of this child’? Based on the earlier argument that the man has no rights, if it is all the responsibility of the woman, then why should the man now be responsible?
It is a double standard.
But the main point is, the responsibility starts when you jump into bed with someone, not when you get pregnant. Clearly a man cannot force a woman to have a baby, everyone knows that in the end it is your body and decision, but be careful that the argument does not undo what has taken many years to achieve with regards to the responsibilitiesp of fathers.
It is about responsibility. The question about an unwanted pregnancy should not when pregnant, it starts with the sex, Sex can lead to pregnancy.
The issue with the argument ‘it’s my body, you can’t tell me what to do’ approach to this topic is flawed, this is why.
For years women have been pushing men to take more responsibility with regards to raising children. I now personally know ‘stay at home’ dads. In my father’s generation, it was embarrassing for a man to be seen pushing a baby stroller. Men are more involved in the raising of children than probably ever before. But, if a woman does not want the child, suddenly the father has no say in the matter? The message there is, ‘you are not responsible’, it the woman’s body, it is her baby, not ours.
If a woman wants an abortion, and the man wants the child, but the woman using her argument that the man has no say in the business goes off to get an abortion. Then let’s say on her way she changes her mind and decides to keep the child. Is the man now responsible for the child?? Is it now: ‘this is your baby I am carrying’ ‘you got me pregnant’ ‘this is what you did to me’ ‘you are the father of this child’? Based on the earlier argument that the man has no rights, if it is all the responsibility of the woman, then why should the man now be responsible?
It is a double standard.
But the main point is, the responsibility starts when you jump into bed with someone, not when you get pregnant. Clearly a man cannot force a woman to have a baby, everyone knows that in the end it is your body and decision, but be careful that the argument does not undo what has taken many years to achieve with regards to the responsibilitiesp of fathers.
-
Betty Boop
- Posts: 16936
- Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:17 pm
- Location: The end of the World
Man's Right to Choose
buttercup;678555 wrote: For those considering pregnancy other than a few uncomfortable moments the process can also be pure joy :-4
Dont just take Red's word for it :wah:
My first pregnancy nearly saw myself and my son loose our lives, it was hell for my ex husband and our families, for me I hardly remember it.
Second pregnancy was text book, yes, natural delivery bloody hurt but it was pure joy to hold my little girl.
I see carrying a mans child as an ultimate sacrifice I would make for someone I loved, I would see that child as a gift, but thats in an ideal world with rose coloured spectacles on.
If I were to fall pregnant by accident?? I'd have no option but to have to tell the father, my conscience wouldn't allow me to do any other, abortion would be out of the question and I'm not sure I could carry a baby for nine months and not have any feelings then have it adopted or even hand it over to the father full time, it would have to be shared care if we weren't a couple.
For me the fathers feelings would be taken into consideration without a doubt.
Dont just take Red's word for it :wah:
My first pregnancy nearly saw myself and my son loose our lives, it was hell for my ex husband and our families, for me I hardly remember it.
Second pregnancy was text book, yes, natural delivery bloody hurt but it was pure joy to hold my little girl.
I see carrying a mans child as an ultimate sacrifice I would make for someone I loved, I would see that child as a gift, but thats in an ideal world with rose coloured spectacles on.
If I were to fall pregnant by accident?? I'd have no option but to have to tell the father, my conscience wouldn't allow me to do any other, abortion would be out of the question and I'm not sure I could carry a baby for nine months and not have any feelings then have it adopted or even hand it over to the father full time, it would have to be shared care if we weren't a couple.
For me the fathers feelings would be taken into consideration without a doubt.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Man's Right to Choose
I wish I had been able to stick around last night, but it's really too late to respond to some of those posts. I'll wait for my next opportunity.
I wish we could put all the emotions & ideas in pill form and give one to every person considering uncommitted recreational sex. Talk about an effective contraceptive!
To the men:
Every time you make the choice to have sex with a woman, you risk becoming a father. If you're not prepared to be a father, a dad, and a partner of your child's mother, choose to keep it in your pants.
To have sex without commitment is stupid and cruel. It's cruel to the woman for myriad reasons we men can never understand and a couple that we can.
(1) Sex is making a promise of commitment, regardless of your words. Making a promise you don't intend to keep is not being a man.
(2) If she should become pregnant, you have a moral obligation to both her and the child. You stupidly place yourself in the position of staying with a woman you don't love, or abandoning her to take care of your responsibilities.
It's also cruel to the child.
(1) The woman can choose to not allow you to be a dad; she doesn't even have to tell you she's pregnant. You have thoughtlessly and cruelly put your child in a single-parent situation.
(2) She can choose to allow you only a portion of your responsibility such as child support or "visiting rights". How are you going to teach your son responsibility when you're not allowed to role-model it? Your choice deprives your child of proper raising. Maybe it'll turn out okay, but why take the risk?
(3) Most cruel of all, your choice of uncommitted sex grants her the legal right to murder your child before it has a chance to experience life. You have no vote? Sure you do. You voted weeks ago.
~~~~~~~~~~
To the women:
Every time you make the choice to have sex with a man, you risk becoming pregnant. Don't hide behind excuses; this is fact. Becoming pregnant isn't only about you, and it's not unfair. Life is eminently fair, it's just not balanced. You want the right to choose? The first choice is keeping your panties on. If you're not prepared to be a mother, a mom, and a partner of your child's father, make that first choice.
To have uncommitted sex is stupid and cruel. The cruelties to the child that I listed above are are also cruel torture to responsible men. You may not be able to empathize, I don't know. Also:
(1) It's stupid to place yourself in a partnership when you don't know the commitment level of the man. Is he even a real man, who will honor his share of the responsibility? If you can't answer that question, why the hell are you taking such a risk?
(2) Having an abortion because of a risk to your own life is selfish but understandable. Having an abortion for any other reason is saying that your recreation and comfort is more important than a child's life -- a human life. Use all the excuses you want but this fact stands against all of them. This is the mindset of a slavery society.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In short, I've come to the realization that both men and women have freedom of choice. When it comes to abortion, the most important choice comes very early, while you still have your clothes on.
I wish we could put all the emotions & ideas in pill form and give one to every person considering uncommitted recreational sex. Talk about an effective contraceptive!
To the men:
Every time you make the choice to have sex with a woman, you risk becoming a father. If you're not prepared to be a father, a dad, and a partner of your child's mother, choose to keep it in your pants.
To have sex without commitment is stupid and cruel. It's cruel to the woman for myriad reasons we men can never understand and a couple that we can.
(1) Sex is making a promise of commitment, regardless of your words. Making a promise you don't intend to keep is not being a man.
(2) If she should become pregnant, you have a moral obligation to both her and the child. You stupidly place yourself in the position of staying with a woman you don't love, or abandoning her to take care of your responsibilities.
It's also cruel to the child.
(1) The woman can choose to not allow you to be a dad; she doesn't even have to tell you she's pregnant. You have thoughtlessly and cruelly put your child in a single-parent situation.
(2) She can choose to allow you only a portion of your responsibility such as child support or "visiting rights". How are you going to teach your son responsibility when you're not allowed to role-model it? Your choice deprives your child of proper raising. Maybe it'll turn out okay, but why take the risk?
(3) Most cruel of all, your choice of uncommitted sex grants her the legal right to murder your child before it has a chance to experience life. You have no vote? Sure you do. You voted weeks ago.
~~~~~~~~~~
To the women:
Every time you make the choice to have sex with a man, you risk becoming pregnant. Don't hide behind excuses; this is fact. Becoming pregnant isn't only about you, and it's not unfair. Life is eminently fair, it's just not balanced. You want the right to choose? The first choice is keeping your panties on. If you're not prepared to be a mother, a mom, and a partner of your child's father, make that first choice.
To have uncommitted sex is stupid and cruel. The cruelties to the child that I listed above are are also cruel torture to responsible men. You may not be able to empathize, I don't know. Also:
(1) It's stupid to place yourself in a partnership when you don't know the commitment level of the man. Is he even a real man, who will honor his share of the responsibility? If you can't answer that question, why the hell are you taking such a risk?
(2) Having an abortion because of a risk to your own life is selfish but understandable. Having an abortion for any other reason is saying that your recreation and comfort is more important than a child's life -- a human life. Use all the excuses you want but this fact stands against all of them. This is the mindset of a slavery society.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In short, I've come to the realization that both men and women have freedom of choice. When it comes to abortion, the most important choice comes very early, while you still have your clothes on.
-
Betty Boop
- Posts: 16936
- Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:17 pm
- Location: The end of the World
Man's Right to Choose
Accountable;679098 wrote: I wish I had been able to stick around last night, but it's really too late to respond to some of those posts. I'll wait for my next opportunity.
I wish we could put all the emotions & ideas in pill form and give one to every person considering uncommitted recreational sex. Talk about an effective contraceptive!
To the men:
Every time you make the choice to have sex with a woman, you risk becoming a father. If you're not prepared to be a father, a dad, and a partner of your child's mother, choose to keep it in your pants.
To have sex without commitment is stupid and cruel. It's cruel to the woman for myriad reasons we men can never understand and a couple that we can.
(1) Sex is making a promise of commitment, regardless of your words. Making a promise you don't intend to keep is not being a man.
(2) If she should become pregnant, you have a moral obligation to both her and the child. You stupidly place yourself in the position of staying with a woman you don't love, or abandoning her to take care of your responsibilities.
It's also cruel to the child.
(1) The woman can choose to not allow you to be a dad; she doesn't even have to tell you she's pregnant. You have thoughtlessly and cruelly put your child in a single-parent situation.
(2) She can choose to allow you only a portion of your responsibility such as child support or "visiting rights". How are you going to teach your son responsibility when you're not allowed to role-model it? Your choice deprives your child of proper raising. Maybe it'll turn out okay, but why take the risk?
(3) Most cruel of all, your choice of uncommitted sex grants her the legal right to murder your child before it has a chance to experience life. You have no vote? Sure you do. You voted weeks ago.
~~~~~~~~~~
To the women:
Every time you make the choice to have sex with a man, you risk becoming pregnant. Don't hide behind excuses; this is fact. Becoming pregnant isn't only about you, and it's not unfair. Life is eminently fair, it's just not balanced. You want the right to choose? The first choice is keeping your panties on. If you're not prepared to be a mother, a mom, and a partner of your child's father, make that first choice.
To have uncommitted sex is stupid and cruel. The cruelties to the child that I listed above are are also cruel torture to responsible men. You may not be able to empathize, I don't know. Also:
(1) It's stupid to place yourself in a partnership when you don't know the commitment level of the man. Is he even a real man, who will honor his share of the responsibility? If you can't answer that question, why the hell are you taking such a risk?
(2) Having an abortion because of a risk to your own life is selfish but understandable. Having an abortion for any other reason is saying that your recreation and comfort is more important than a child's life -- a human life. Use all the excuses you want but this fact stands against all of them. This is the mindset of a slavery society.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In short, I've come to the realization that both men and women have freedom of choice. When it comes to abortion, the most important choice comes very early, while you still have your clothes on.
Fantastic post AC :-6, but as things are today sex has become a recreational activity, I can't imagine half of society taking the above on board and living by it.
I wish we could put all the emotions & ideas in pill form and give one to every person considering uncommitted recreational sex. Talk about an effective contraceptive!
To the men:
Every time you make the choice to have sex with a woman, you risk becoming a father. If you're not prepared to be a father, a dad, and a partner of your child's mother, choose to keep it in your pants.
To have sex without commitment is stupid and cruel. It's cruel to the woman for myriad reasons we men can never understand and a couple that we can.
(1) Sex is making a promise of commitment, regardless of your words. Making a promise you don't intend to keep is not being a man.
(2) If she should become pregnant, you have a moral obligation to both her and the child. You stupidly place yourself in the position of staying with a woman you don't love, or abandoning her to take care of your responsibilities.
It's also cruel to the child.
(1) The woman can choose to not allow you to be a dad; she doesn't even have to tell you she's pregnant. You have thoughtlessly and cruelly put your child in a single-parent situation.
(2) She can choose to allow you only a portion of your responsibility such as child support or "visiting rights". How are you going to teach your son responsibility when you're not allowed to role-model it? Your choice deprives your child of proper raising. Maybe it'll turn out okay, but why take the risk?
(3) Most cruel of all, your choice of uncommitted sex grants her the legal right to murder your child before it has a chance to experience life. You have no vote? Sure you do. You voted weeks ago.
~~~~~~~~~~
To the women:
Every time you make the choice to have sex with a man, you risk becoming pregnant. Don't hide behind excuses; this is fact. Becoming pregnant isn't only about you, and it's not unfair. Life is eminently fair, it's just not balanced. You want the right to choose? The first choice is keeping your panties on. If you're not prepared to be a mother, a mom, and a partner of your child's father, make that first choice.
To have uncommitted sex is stupid and cruel. The cruelties to the child that I listed above are are also cruel torture to responsible men. You may not be able to empathize, I don't know. Also:
(1) It's stupid to place yourself in a partnership when you don't know the commitment level of the man. Is he even a real man, who will honor his share of the responsibility? If you can't answer that question, why the hell are you taking such a risk?
(2) Having an abortion because of a risk to your own life is selfish but understandable. Having an abortion for any other reason is saying that your recreation and comfort is more important than a child's life -- a human life. Use all the excuses you want but this fact stands against all of them. This is the mindset of a slavery society.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In short, I've come to the realization that both men and women have freedom of choice. When it comes to abortion, the most important choice comes very early, while you still have your clothes on.
Fantastic post AC :-6, but as things are today sex has become a recreational activity, I can't imagine half of society taking the above on board and living by it.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Man's Right to Choose
Betty Boop;679103 wrote: Fantastic post AC :-6, but as things are today sex has become a recreational activity, I can't imagine half of society taking the above on board and living by it.
Thanks Betts. Nah, I have no illusions. But if a few people take it to heart, and teach their kids the same ........ a guy can dream, right?
Thanks Betts. Nah, I have no illusions. But if a few people take it to heart, and teach their kids the same ........ a guy can dream, right?
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Man's Right to Choose
Pinky;679106 wrote: So those of you who aren't in serious relationships don't occasionally have sex then?
I think it's hypocritical to say that we shouldn't do it when of course people do it with partners that they might not want to have children with, but are still in a relationship with them all the same even when people know that person isn't the one they're going to end up with. Should we all go off to monasteries now?
Go where you wish. It's your choice. I'm just saying that if you want to have sex, hedge your bets. Don't have sex with irresponsible people. Only risk pregnancy with someone you're prepared to have a lifelong relationship with.
I think it's hypocritical to say that we shouldn't do it when of course people do it with partners that they might not want to have children with, but are still in a relationship with them all the same even when people know that person isn't the one they're going to end up with. Should we all go off to monasteries now?
Go where you wish. It's your choice. I'm just saying that if you want to have sex, hedge your bets. Don't have sex with irresponsible people. Only risk pregnancy with someone you're prepared to have a lifelong relationship with.
Man's Right to Choose
I find this question quite a difficult one. I don't think many women would have an abortion,unless they had given it some deep thought.There could be several reasons why she would do that.Ie not ready to be a mother,rember this is a life time commitment.Or could be in a casual relationship and think the father is not the ideal canditate to be a suitable role model for her child.
From the mans perspective.If he has a relationship with a woman and would like a child,then surely he should discuss the subject with her first,and find out if that is what she want's as well,and surely they would come as a package and she should be his soulmate as well as the mother of his child.Would he be willing to raise the child alone if she was forced to go ahead with the pregnancy?
At the end of the day,I think it should be the womans choice.I think it would be a sad day if we were forced to have a child that we did not wan't.Every child that is born has the right to be loved and wanted,idealy by both it's parents,but sadly it is often not how things are.
From the mans perspective.If he has a relationship with a woman and would like a child,then surely he should discuss the subject with her first,and find out if that is what she want's as well,and surely they would come as a package and she should be his soulmate as well as the mother of his child.Would he be willing to raise the child alone if she was forced to go ahead with the pregnancy?
At the end of the day,I think it should be the womans choice.I think it would be a sad day if we were forced to have a child that we did not wan't.Every child that is born has the right to be loved and wanted,idealy by both it's parents,but sadly it is often not how things are.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Man's Right to Choose
Pinky;679108 wrote: Would a foetus that's only weeks old know it's been aborted? Has it grown a brain or nerve endings yet? If not, what makes it wrong?
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ..................... :yh_frustr
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ..................... :yh_frustr
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Man's Right to Choose
Accountable;679098 wrote: [snipped. just click on the arrow thingy]
Mia;679121 wrote: I find this question quite a difficult one. I don't think many women would have an abortion,unless they had given it some deep thought.There could be several reasons why she would do that.Ie not ready to be a mother,rember this is a life time commitment.Or could be in a casual relationship and think the father is not the ideal canditate to be a suitable role model for her child.
These are excellent reasons to give the child to adoptive parents, not to kill it.
Mia;679121 wrote: I find this question quite a difficult one. I don't think many women would have an abortion,unless they had given it some deep thought.There could be several reasons why she would do that.Ie not ready to be a mother,rember this is a life time commitment.Or could be in a casual relationship and think the father is not the ideal canditate to be a suitable role model for her child.
These are excellent reasons to give the child to adoptive parents, not to kill it.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Man's Right to Choose
Pinky;679129 wrote: Sorry if this kind of thing annoys you, I just happen to see it differently to you.
I'm knocking this one on the head now as I think my views might offend.
That offends me even more, if that matters. My growl was just because I've said my piece several times & was too lazy to repeat.
I'm knocking this one on the head now as I think my views might offend.
That offends me even more, if that matters. My growl was just because I've said my piece several times & was too lazy to repeat.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Man's Right to Choose
Respectfully, I submit that not all of us would take adoption over abortion.
That doesn't make those of us wrong or evil or murderers, it makes us humans with a whole different take.
I read and re-read the posts about keeping one's britches on and there was a long time in my life I would have completely agreed. When I was in my 20s and still idealistic.
Not now.
People have sex for various reasons and God hasn't whispered to me that "mating is for only making babies" as was put earlier. I don't fault people for having sex without commitment. Without birth control, yes. But stuff does happen and that's how it is. Both parties can take their lumps. And I am not going to fault anyone for having an abortion. Contrary to popular thought, women don't get one 99% of the time with no more consideration than getting a gumball out of a machine. I say that now because I know it's going to come up soon.
I do think a fetus is human. It is alive albeit through its mother's body. And i do see abortion as killing a human life. I differentiate killing from cold blooded murder and it offends me to hear that murder stuff as much as it offends some others to read what I'm writing here. Abortion is a necessary evil in my eyes. Has always been. Sure there is always adoption which is fine but there are those of us who would end our child's life before we'd give up our own flesh and blood to strangers. I always knew I would kill my child before I'd give it away. I've known that since I was a child myself. There are things far worse than death. I'm sorry if that rankles. And aren't there enough kids waiting to be adopted already? Does abortion take away the child's chance for a life? I don't think so. I think life is planned before we get here, but that's all I'll say about that. Is it selfish to do this? Many think so. Not me.
I'm trying to walk the line between giving my opinion and stepping on somebody's feelings so if I'm failing, I'm sorry.
I'm not sure what we're going to find here. So far I am a selfish murderous bitch who is unfit to marry, but then again, do I want a man who thinks like that to start with? Not me.
So men know what you're getting into, no pun intended.
Women know your men. Or your boys if that's the case.
Being human is a messy, messy business.
That doesn't make those of us wrong or evil or murderers, it makes us humans with a whole different take.
I read and re-read the posts about keeping one's britches on and there was a long time in my life I would have completely agreed. When I was in my 20s and still idealistic.
Not now.
People have sex for various reasons and God hasn't whispered to me that "mating is for only making babies" as was put earlier. I don't fault people for having sex without commitment. Without birth control, yes. But stuff does happen and that's how it is. Both parties can take their lumps. And I am not going to fault anyone for having an abortion. Contrary to popular thought, women don't get one 99% of the time with no more consideration than getting a gumball out of a machine. I say that now because I know it's going to come up soon.
I do think a fetus is human. It is alive albeit through its mother's body. And i do see abortion as killing a human life. I differentiate killing from cold blooded murder and it offends me to hear that murder stuff as much as it offends some others to read what I'm writing here. Abortion is a necessary evil in my eyes. Has always been. Sure there is always adoption which is fine but there are those of us who would end our child's life before we'd give up our own flesh and blood to strangers. I always knew I would kill my child before I'd give it away. I've known that since I was a child myself. There are things far worse than death. I'm sorry if that rankles. And aren't there enough kids waiting to be adopted already? Does abortion take away the child's chance for a life? I don't think so. I think life is planned before we get here, but that's all I'll say about that. Is it selfish to do this? Many think so. Not me.
I'm trying to walk the line between giving my opinion and stepping on somebody's feelings so if I'm failing, I'm sorry.
I'm not sure what we're going to find here. So far I am a selfish murderous bitch who is unfit to marry, but then again, do I want a man who thinks like that to start with? Not me.
So men know what you're getting into, no pun intended.
Women know your men. Or your boys if that's the case.
Being human is a messy, messy business.
Man's Right to Choose
This post has drifted, the heading is not if you are pro or anti abortion, it is about the man's right to choose, which an interesting angle, because the topic always ends up going back to the woman's right to choose.
Where does the men's rights start and end?
Where does the men's rights start and end?
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Man's Right to Choose
mikeinie;679229 wrote: This post has drifted, the heading is not if you are pro or anti abortion, it is about the man's right to choose, which an interesting angle, because the topic always ends up going back to the woman's right to choose.
Where does the men's rights start and end?
What's an Irishman's view? :sneaky:
Where does the men's rights start and end?
What's an Irishman's view? :sneaky:
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Man's Right to Choose
mikeinie;679229 wrote: This post has drifted, the heading is not if you are pro or anti abortion, it is about the man's right to choose, which an interesting angle, because the topic always ends up going back to the woman's right to choose.
We didn't drift any more on abortion than we did when we were told to keep our pants on. You can't have this conversation without abortion popping up.
I think the bolded part answers the OP anyway. You can't hav eit both ways. Insisting a woman bear your kid when she doesn't want to not only smacks of degradation, slavery and ownership, it is just as selfish as (if we're using that word) the woman not wanting to bear the child for the man.
So the coin is the same on both sides. Something must give. You know where I stand on who and what.
Where does the men's rights start and end?
They begin when he sleeps with her and they end if she does not want to give birth. That is my answer. Nobody said it was going to be fair.
We didn't drift any more on abortion than we did when we were told to keep our pants on. You can't have this conversation without abortion popping up.
I think the bolded part answers the OP anyway. You can't hav eit both ways. Insisting a woman bear your kid when she doesn't want to not only smacks of degradation, slavery and ownership, it is just as selfish as (if we're using that word) the woman not wanting to bear the child for the man.
So the coin is the same on both sides. Something must give. You know where I stand on who and what.
Where does the men's rights start and end?
They begin when he sleeps with her and they end if she does not want to give birth. That is my answer. Nobody said it was going to be fair.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Man's Right to Choose
RedGlitter;679319 wrote: We didn't drift any more on abortion than we did when we were told to keep our pants on. You can't have this conversation without abortion popping up.
I think the bolded part answers the OP anyway. You can't hav eit both ways. Insisting a woman bear your kid when she doesn't want to not only smacks of degradation, slavery and ownership, it is just as selfish as (if we're using that word) the woman not wanting to bear the child for the man.
So the coin is the same on both sides. Something must give. You know where I stand on who and what.
They begin when he sleeps with her and they end if she does not want to give birth. That is my answer. Nobody said it was going to be fair.
*ahem*Accountable;679098 wrote: [...] Life is eminently fair, it's just not balanced. [...]
I think the bolded part answers the OP anyway. You can't hav eit both ways. Insisting a woman bear your kid when she doesn't want to not only smacks of degradation, slavery and ownership, it is just as selfish as (if we're using that word) the woman not wanting to bear the child for the man.
So the coin is the same on both sides. Something must give. You know where I stand on who and what.
They begin when he sleeps with her and they end if she does not want to give birth. That is my answer. Nobody said it was going to be fair.
*ahem*Accountable;679098 wrote: [...] Life is eminently fair, it's just not balanced. [...]
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Man's Right to Choose
*ahem* Quote:
Originally Posted by Accountable
[...] Life is eminently fair, it's just not balanced. [...]
Okay...that works...I think...
Off topic: I just noticed your new teacher avatar!! Very nice!!
Originally Posted by Accountable
[...] Life is eminently fair, it's just not balanced. [...]
Okay...that works...I think...
Off topic: I just noticed your new teacher avatar!! Very nice!!