benezir bhutto killed

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:43 am

This has serious repercussions for the west i fear

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:51 am

HOLY CRAP!!!

Who killed her?? What happened? I read the news this AM and saw nothing!

Post by **spot** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:51 am

You got that here faster than the BBC.

It's vile. She was a brave person as was her father.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:52 am

oh dear.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... tto427.xml

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:52 am

just happened red, shot in the last 15 minutes, its all over the media here.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:53 am

unfortunetly when she escaped the last attack, it was only ever a case of "when"

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:57 am

i find the destabilisation this will cause - i mean more than there was previously - with the nuclear issues as well, to be indescribable.I cannot impress on anyone who doesnt understand, enough, just how serious this is.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:58 am

Wow. That makes me feel kind of sick. I always thought Benezir was pretty cool.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:58 am

This is not good. There is going to be hell to pay for this one.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:59 am

Red, on a personal level, with an individual yes, that would make anyone feel sick.But people now need to look at the wider issues.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:00 am

lemon_and_mint;747288 wrote: Red, on a personal level, with an individual yes, that would make anyone feel sick.But people now need to look at the wider issues.

Such as which, Lemon? I'm not that familiar.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:03 am

She was the Pakistani prime minister twice. She was the head of a big anti- musharif party. She was also really liberal. She WAS cool, Red.

SlipStream · Post by **SlipStream** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:04 am

last I heard they didn't know how bad twoss....

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:05 am

well, foe one thig red, although it was said that she was involved in the emergence of the taliban she recognised that the extremists had gone too far.She was involved in later years in trying to support the terrorists so that they would not be so extreme.

Those who have kiled her wish the extremists to contniue.

The extremists as you know train people of nmany different nattionalities and their influence has affect Britain and Blai amongst other countries.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:06 am

She also introduced a great many western ideas to her society such as women in power - there will probably be a backlash against all that is western now, and as they have nuclear weapons, that is serious.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:07 am

Thanks Lemon.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:08 am

i would really like input from galbally here.I am sure he has more to contribute.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:11 am

And it starts already red -

the usa just condemned the actions of those who killed her.

That is exactly what they want, a war with the west.

The usa just played right into thier hands.

Less than an hour later and the world is in serious trouble.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:26 am

France has now officially condemned it - that's now part of europe and the usa involved.So far I dont think Britain has commented officially, the Home Office said they were waiting for more information, what this could be I don't know.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:30 am

I dont think we will sink into world war war three just because the west condemns a killing. I think it's a bit more complicated than that.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:32 am

i agree raven, it is much more complicated than that, but i feel that this is only the first step on a long road, which *could* conceivably lead there, all other conditions fulfilled.

It certainly isnt something I would wish to be seeing.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:35 am

Absolutely. This is very bad juju for the west.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:41 am

Whats worse is that the extremists who killed her, think they have triumphed. What I am afraid they have gotten, might just be something different. I get the feeling that the people over there are about fed up with the extremists themselves.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:41 am

Raven some very serious foreign journals, in Europe are now reporting that her supporters are calling for all citizens to attack the other side, with those responsible retorting that they have killed the leader and will now target the lesser officials and supporters.

Given that I believe this reporting to be true, the second step i would be watching for after international condemnation would be all out civil war in Pakistan.

I beleive that a civil war now will be far far worse than any fighting we have witnessed so far.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:44 am

Probably. What I wonder, is can the world just sit back and let Pakistan sort this out for themselves?

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:45 am

Raven;747331 wrote: Probably. What I wonder, is can the world just sit back and let Pakistan sort this out for themselves?

And the answer to that would answer my worries.I don't believe so, but getting involved would makes things worse.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:47 am

Gordon Brown to make a statement shortly.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:49 am

Russia just made a statement in which they didn't actually say anything.How strange unless they wish to remain neutral.

They didn't condemn it, but said that they feared it would lead to civil war.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:54 am

lemon_and_mint;747332 wrote: And the answer to that would answer my worries.I don't believe so, but getting involved would makes things worse. Yes it would. But you have to understand, she was a strong woman who polarised a whole country. Her murder could very well be what that country needs to spur them on to purge the terminal element from it. The world is weary from extremists. But sometimes they are the only 'cry from the wilderness' that we need. I know this may be hard to understand.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:56 am

Raven, I do understand exactly what you are saying, I just do not know if the circumstances will play out like that.Nobody will, untill it is all over, which could take a very long time. I would hope so, but I fear not.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:02 am

You're right. No one knows darling. I fear it's going to be a bumpy ride myself. I cant help but be angry at the death of another strong woman. But she wasnt afraid. But that is what happens to those who have the drive to speak out against wrong. The strength to OPPOSE! I just hope those who believed in her message can summon the courage to carry on her work.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:06 am

Yes she was an extremely brave woman, regardless of the rights or wrongs of the situation (should she have put herself in such a situation, was she corrupt as some suggest).No doubt we will hear much more in following days.

The other thing which bothers me greatly is that I note a couple of people are reading this, red has asked a few questions, only you and I are discussing it.

Although this is all over the British media today I doubt that many people actually understand what is going on.I do not fully understand myself, but I think I have a fairly good grasp of the situation.

People, I think, consider that Pakistan is far away and has nothing to do with the UK.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:18 am

Pakistan, as a former British colony, is still part of the commonwealth. As is India. This is just like margaret thatcher being assasinated, God forbid.

Post by **spot** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:40 am

Benazir Bhutto wrote an article about her security last month which is worth re-reading - the full text is under the link:I have long claimed that the rise of extremism and militancy in Pakistan could not happen without support from elements within the current administration. My return to my country poses a threat to the forces of extremism that have thrived under a dictatorship. They want to stop the restoration of democracy at any price. They have exploited a poor, desperate, and powerless people and allowed extremists the right environment in which to flourish.

The ruling party is an artificial, political party created in the headquarters of the Inter-Services Intelligence (Pakistan's equivalent of the CIA) during the General Elections of 2002. Its core support comes from the political partners of the military dictator of the '80s, General Zia al-Haq, who empowered the most radical elements within the Afghan Mujahedeen who went on to morph into al-Qaeda, Taliban and the Pakistani militants of today.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiap ... index.html

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:43 am

And she chose to face them on home turf. I just hope her people have the courage to follow.

Post by **spot** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:14 am

She addressed the Council on Foreign Relations in August, the one-hour video discussion might interest some people here.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:17 am

She should have stayed in Britain. But then again, would she have had the same impact from here? For sure, now something is coming.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:20 am

Thank you spot for your interesting links.

Raven, there is some talk that she was martyred in more way than one, that she did this knowing they would kill her, in order to provoke change.

I do not subscribe to that view, but just to let you know what is being said.

The americans are also saying that alqaueda was responsible and not just her "normal" opponents.

This could now lead back to bush's syria/iraq etc axis of evil, and so it spirals outwards.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:32 am

I believe she knew she would die. Talk about your gambles! She may have been banking on having enough influence left to be able to spur on change.

I am still very saddened at another strong feminine voice of protest has been silenced by murder yet again.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:02 am

Yes, I just heard this in the car, its is quite sad, she was a remarkably brave woman who realized herself that this fate was quite likely for her, of course also the situation in her country which was already very bad is going to get worse, not a great start for 2008, like lemon and mint said their are going to be repercussions for the region and the west as well, still the world is inherently dangerous and such events are not unprecedented. Pakistan is destabilizing fast so I am afraid this is all too predictable. I would wait a few days to see how events play out on the street of Pakistan before it will possible to tell whether this will spark a full scale civil war, its certainly a possibility.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:05 am

very diplomatic by gordon brown, he said it was a sad day, that terrorism must not win, but just stopped short of condemning the perpetrators.

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:37 am

She was a very brave Woman she knew the risks of coming back into politics. Very sad day indeed.

along-for-the-ride · Post by **along-for-the-ride** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:14 pm

When a murdered political figure is labelled a "martyr", that usually means his/her followers and supporters are already emotionally and righteously responding in their grief. This could be the beginnings of a major civil war in Pakistan and if the current leader is found involved in this murder, all the worst for him.

I knew little of Bhutto and what I did know I saw on the news. She was not perfect, but she had charisma and seemed well aware of the chances she was taking "going public." Nevertheless, I do feel sadness that her life was ended so violently, along with 20 other people. I am well aware that the people responsible for her murder will consider the murderer a martyr....although he/she will be anonymous to the general public.

lemon_and_mint · Post by **lemon_and_mint** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:18 pm

along-for-the-ride;747761 wrote: When a murdered political figure is labelled a "martyr", that usually means his/her followers and supporters are already emotionally and righteously responding in their grief. This could be the beginnings of a major civil war in Pakistan and if the current leader is found involved in this murder, all the worst for him.

I knew little of Bhutto and what I did know I saw on the news. She was not perfect, but she had charisma and seemed well aware of the chances she was taking "going public." Nevertheless, I do feel sadness that her life was ended so violently, along with 20 other people. I am well aware that the people responsible for her murder will consider the murderer a martyr....although he/she will be anonymous to the general public.

There are mutterings that in fact her life was saved via her banishment, which was doen deliberaetly for that reason, so it was her return which sealed her fate.

Although this in my opinion twists the truth of how events happened.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:45 pm

Considering Musharraf's dying hold on the countries stability Pakistan will soon be in complete disarray and up for grabs I suspect. Pakistan is fractured and in my opinion this assasination is the beginning of something greater to come.

freetobeme · Post by **freetobeme** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:03 pm

Pakistan is on the brink of becoming an Islamic State, if this happens they will have access to nukes - not good. India could get involved before the West.

Maybe we should start calling Islam - The Religion of Detonation

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:07 pm

Musharraf does not want an election and has been diligent in wanting anybody or any faction that can threaten him or his power out of the way as seen in his recent martial law and house arrest of Bhutto.

Could Musharraf have been involved in the assasination ?

Its possible. Im convinced his self absorption exceeds his genuine concern for whats good for country. His recent criticism of the US also indicates his willingness to part with influences that dont benefit his needs.

Post by **spot** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:08 pm

There's nothing the current US administration would like more than a genuine external threat, I'm sure it would even pay good money to be given one. Nothing pulls a state into harmony quicker than being attacked by a credible enemy.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:37 pm

spot;748004 wrote: There's nothing the current US administration would like more than a genuine external threat, I'm sure it would even pay good money to be given one. Nothing pulls a state into harmony quicker than being attacked by a credible enemy.

I dont believe they wish anything resembling strife. Not now, not later.

Whos this credible threat ?