Barack Obama: What's up with the ears?

grh · Post by **grh** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:05 pm

The race card is the same thing as the gender card, only as regards to race.

Sometimes we've got that thing in our heads that says we cannot do something," he said as his largely black audience shouted "Yes!" in response. "We have been told for so long it's not possible. We've got to wait for somebody else to tell us it's possible before we decide it's possible. But let me tell you, I'm here to say it's possible. We're doing it right now. Don't tell me I can't do something!"

There's your race card. Unless you can show me him delivering that same speech to a group of white guys in the south...

Which I'm all for BTW. Up until hillary got NH B.O. was very impressive with his higher toned campaigning, IMO.

What we are going to end up with, is a totally divided democratic party, because I don't think either of the two front runners has the ego to accept the VP position. John Edwards will nab that by selling his delegate count to whichever is willing to be bought.

Which means, as improbable as you would think it is at the moment, that the republicans will rule for at least 4 more years while we keep anything of import from happening by leaving the house and senate in the hands of the democrats

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:16 pm

Hey! Maybe the Demo loser will run independent and Ron Paul will go Libertarian.

Wouldn't that be a hoot! :yh_bigsmi :yh_flag

grh · Post by **grh** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:18 pm

Accountable;765652 wrote: Hey! Maybe the Demo loser will run independent and Ron Paul will go Libertarian.

Wouldn't that be a hoot! :yh_bigsmi :yh_flag

I think it would be cool to see a democrat pick ron paul for their running mate:D

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:41 pm

Sometimes we've got that thing in our heads that says we cannot do something," he said as his largely black audience shouted "Yes!" in response. "We have been told for so long it's not possible. We've got to wait for somebody else to tell us it's possible before we decide it's possible. But let me tell you, I'm here to say it's possible. We're doing it right now. Don't tell me I can't do something!"

We have differing views on what playing a race card means then.

To me thats just motivational speaking, uplifting, positive.

The race card to me denotes negativity and a sort of plotting of us against them. Using race a stand against something is something Ive not seen him do yet and I doubt if I will.

Merely mentioning race doesnt qualify to Nomad.

grh · Post by **grh** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:01 pm

Nomad;766364 wrote: Sometimes we've got that thing in our heads that says we cannot do something," he said as his largely black audience shouted "Yes!" in response. "We have been told for so long it's not possible. We've got to wait for somebody else to tell us it's possible before we decide it's possible. But let me tell you, I'm here to say it's possible. We're doing it right now. Don't tell me I can't do something!"

We have differing views on what playing a race card means then.

To me thats just motivational speaking, uplifting, positive.

The race card to me denotes negativity and a sort of plotting of us against them. Using race a stand against something is something Ive not seen him do yet and I doubt if I will.

Merely mentioning race doesnt qualify to Nomad.

Like I said, show me where he made this same 'motivational speech' to a group of whites guys and I'll be more then happy to agree with you.

I don't even object to him doing it, so long as he doesn't pretend to be taking the high ground. :-6

KarmaDoodle · Post by **KarmaDoodle** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:59 pm

changinglanes;755379 wrote: Not sure either. What's up with Oprah & him. That was in poor taste in my opinion.

Speaking of ears....kind of reminds me of Kurt Bush before he had them surgically pinned back.

How is it poor taste? Oprah is an amazing woman and Barack is an amazing leader. They should both be seen in the same room and Oprah is a great surrogate for Obama. She had to have helped him win in South Carolina this week!

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:20 pm

grh;766383 wrote: Like I said, show me where he made this same 'motivational speech' to a group of whites guys and I'll be more then happy to agree with you.

I don't even object to him doing it, so long as he doesn't pretend to be taking the high ground. :-6

He makes them all the time. On any given subject. Pick one.

I guess Im not getting why talking about race is such a sensitive subject.

Can race be talked about without there being an ulterior motive or without attaching a label to it ?

I mean we dont label issues the farmers in America have right ?

Its merely a subject.

What am I missing here ?

grh · Post by **grh** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:38 pm

Nomad;766500 wrote: He makes them all the time. On any given subject. Pick one.

I guess Im not getting why talking about race is such a sensitive subject.

Can race be talked about without there being an ulterior motive or without attaching a label to it ?

I mean we dont label issues the farmers in America have right ?

Its merely a subject.

What am I missing here ?

Race is not a qualification for any office, I hope. Gender isn't either. If those of us of a particular gender or race spend our lives expecting and demanding others to judge us on our qualifications, it behooves us to not make the play now to have others choose us based on our race or our gender. We have to insist that we get what we feel we are entitled to based on that same standard, qualification to do the job.

It's hypocritical to play it any differently, nomad. If someone wants to stand in front of a crowd and say 'Here is what I have done for you. Here, is what I want to do for you.' that's fine. At the same time, if someone wants to stand in front of the crowd and basically say vote for me 'because I'm almost as black as you' or vote for me 'because I am almost as feminine as the rest of the female population, fine.

But don't tell me to disregard someones race or gender and vote for them, when they are perfectly willing to have that be their strongest selling point to their own race or gender. And most especially, don't act like it is only the other guys that are doing it!

justnonsense · Post by **justnonsense** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:11 pm

I am black and race has always been a qualification in my life, family and friends.

I and many people I know seem to have been denied jobs and advancement due to our race.

I suppose you will ask for proof.

I can't provide it because what I know and what has been presented is different much of the time.

How many black people are on this forum and participating in this thread?

Does anyone know?

I'm asking because I would like to know how balanced the debate is here.

If someone wants to claim they are being objective about this subject, I doubt you can be because racism is very vulgar and personal. Unless you have experienced it an a daily basis, you have no idea what it's like.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:31 pm

justnonsense;767002 wrote: I am black and race has always been a qualification in my life, family and friends.

I and many people I know seem to have been denied jobs and advancement due to our race.

I suppose you will ask for proof.

I can't provide it because what I know and what has been presented is different much of the time.

How many black people are on this forum and participating in this thread?

Does anyone know?

I'm asking because I would like to know how balanced the debate is here.

If someone wants to claim they are being objective about this subject, I doubt you can be because racism is very vulgar and personal. Unless you have experienced it an a daily basis, you have no idea what it's like.
Thanks for understanding that you 'seem' to have been denied jobs. That shows a level of intellect and open-mindedness I find refreshing.

This debate isn't about racism, or at least it hasn't been. It's been about politics, where there can be no objectivism.

I can only experience racism from my own point of view. Same for you. But through empathy, we both can come to at least a basic understanding of what the other goes through. We have to go from this premise because if most of us can have no idea what it's like unless we experience it daily, there can never be understanding.

Welcome to the Garden! :-6

justnonsense · Post by **justnonsense** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:14 pm

Accountable;767003 wrote: Thanks for understanding that you 'seem' to have been denied jobs. That shows a level of intellect and open-mindedness I find refreshing.

This debate isn't about racism, or at least it hasn't been. It's been about politics, where there can be no objectivity.

I can only experience racism from my own point of view. Same for you. But through empathy, we both can come to at least a basic understanding of what the other goes through. We have to go from this premise because if most of us can have no idea what it's like unless we experience it daily, there can never be understanding.

Welcome to the Garden! :-6Thank you for the welcome.

I'm not convinced empathy works here. I've thought about it often.

I doubt I can empathize with a female experiencing pregnancy.

I would say it's possible for an elderly person to empathize with younger people, but I think a younger person lacks the ability to empathize with an older person.

Equally, although many non blacks claim to understand the hatred, fear and hollow feelings racism breeds, I do not believe they can. Most non black people would probably like to, but that is impossible to most of us blacks.

This is not just me speaking either, this is a widespread opinion within the black community.

grh · Post by **grh** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:43 pm

justnonsense;767002 wrote: I am black and race has always been a qualification in my life, family and friends.

I and many people I know seem to have been denied jobs and advancement due to our race.

I suppose you will ask for proof.

I can't provide it because what I know and what has been presented is different much of the time.

How many black people are on this forum and participating in this thread?

Does anyone know?

I'm asking because I would like to know how balanced the debate is here.

If someone wants to claim they are being objective about this subject, I doubt you can be because racism is very vulgar and personal. Unless you have experienced it an a daily basis, you have no idea what it's like.

So is sexism. That's exactly my point. If I spend my whole work life demanding that it NOT be considered when judging my worth at my job, I have absolutely NO business suggesting to females that they vote me into any office because I am one of 'them'. I have to be just as willing to stand on my own merit when it may be more advantageous not to.

As for your # of black people on this site, perhaps you should start a poll thread. I personally have never asked anyone what their race is, so I couldn't even hazard a guess. Sorry.:-6

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:48 pm

justnonsense;767036 wrote: Thank you for the welcome.

I'm not convinced empathy works here. I've thought about it often.

I doubt I can empathize with a female experiencing pregnancy.

I would say it's possible for an elderly person to empathize with younger people, but I think a younger person lacks the ability to empathize with an older person.

Equally, although many non blacks claim to understand the hatred, fear and hollow feelings racism breeds, I do not believe they can. Most non black people would probably like to, but that is impossible to most of us blacks.

This is not just me speaking either, this is a widespread opinion within the black community.
Then there's no point in a conversation, if there's no hope of us ever understanding each other.

If you don't mind, I'll disagree with you and keep myself open to conversation.

justnonsense · Post by **justnonsense** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:54 pm

Accountable;767202 wrote: Then there's no point in a conversation, if there's no hope of us ever understanding each other.

If you don't mind, I'll disagree with you and keep myself open to conversation.Perhaps the conversation needs to be different than you think it needs to be.

Sorry it cannot be on your terms, but instead of attempting to empathize, maybe we should negotiate.

Not me and you, but black and white.

So, I've told you that you cannot understand the plight of the black man, and your response is to give up and turn your back?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:26 pm

justnonsense;767205 wrote: Perhaps the conversation needs to be different than you think it needs to be.

Sorry it cannot be on your terms, but instead of attempting to empathize, maybe we should negotiate.

Not me and you, but black and white.

So, I've told you that you cannot understand the plight of the black man, and your response is to give up and turn your back?
Not at all. It's to disagree. I think it's kind of odd though that you want to carry on a conversation already convinced that you can't succeed.

I think rather that we define empathy differently. I think we can empathize with a pregnant woman. It's why we fetch chocolate-covered pickles and let her squeeze our hand until breaking without complaint.

Oh, and there are far too many shades of black and hues of white for me to lump them into only two piles.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:34 pm

justnonsense;767002 wrote: I am black and race has always been a qualification in my life, family and friends.

I and many people I know seem to have been denied jobs and advancement due to our race.

I suppose you will ask for proof.

I can't provide it because what I know and what has been presented is different much of the time.

How many black people are on this forum and participating in this thread?

Does anyone know?

I'm asking because I would like to know how balanced the debate is here.

If someone wants to claim they are being objective about this subject, I doubt you can be because racism is very vulgar and personal. Unless you have experienced it an a daily basis, you have no idea what it's like.

If your asking if I know what its like to walk in your shoes the answer is no.

We each walk alone and sometimes alone together.

The best I can do is offer a genuine opinion with some thought invested in it before I speak.

justnonsense · Post by **justnonsense** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:39 pm

Nomad;767221 wrote: If your asking if I know what its like to walk in your shoes the answer is no.

We each walk alone and sometimes alone together.

The best I can do is offer a genuine opinion with some thought invested in it before I speak.This is an excellent response.

That is what we can do.

I think that is the way forward.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:25 pm

justnonsense;767223 wrote: This is an excellent response.

That is what we can do.

I think that is the way forward.

At the risk of sounding like a complete moron...I feel really white around black people. More so around men than women but Im pretty comfortable with women anyway.

I was wondering if you feel really black around white people ?

Its that imaginary barrier.

I imagine there are similarities between that and how some Christans and some Muslims might interact.

The fear of the unknown ?

Its a dilemma for me because in my mind I dont sense any differences, two arms, two legs you know...all the regular stuff white guys have. Maybe there are subtle cultural differences but I like diversity.

I dont know what its like for other people.

double helix · Post by **double helix** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:16 am

Accountable;765450 wrote: :yh_clap

Except for that comment about Hillary. We know she's a woman because she has really thick ankles.Hillary is a Woman? Really, you could have fooled Bill.

double helix · Post by **double helix** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:20 am

Nomad;767221 wrote: If your asking if I know what its like to walk in your shoes the answer is no.

We each walk alone and sometimes alone together.

The best I can do is offer a genuine opinion with some thought invested in it before I speak.Nice answer.

Ever been the only white person in an entire town of non-whites. Ever walked down the street and seen the sideways looks, the laughs and remarks made about you, not to you? Ever had the moms grab their kids and rush them inside when you pass by. Thats what I think it feels like to be black.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:54 am

double helix;767369 wrote: Nice answer.

Ever been the only white person in an entire town of non-whites. Ever walked down the street and seen the sideways looks, the laughs and remarks made about you, not to you? Ever had the moms grab their kids and rush them inside when you pass by. Thats what I think it feels like to be black.

One of my students has deformities that make him look, speak, and walk really differently. Whether that's what it's like to be black or not, he can definitely relate.

grh · Post by **grh** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:39 am

Obama wins backing of Kansas governor

Tue Jan 29, 3:36 PM ET

TOPEKA, Kan. - Gov. Kathleen Sebelius on Tuesday endorsed Barack Obama for president, a Super Tuesday boost in a GOP-leaning state that Democrats hope to reclaim in the White House campaign.

ADVERTISEMENT

"I think he represents the kind of leader that we need for the future of the country," Sebelius told The Associated Press. "I think he brings the hope and optimism that we really need to restore our place in the world, as well as to bring this country together and really tackle the challenges that we have."

..........

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080129/ap_ ... a_sebelius

A possible alternative to hillary as a running mate?

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:01 am

Nomad;767221 wrote: If your asking if I know what its like to walk in your shoes the answer is no.

We each walk alone and sometimes alone together.

The best I can do is offer a genuine opinion with some thought invested in it before I speak.
I kinda know what its like when I try to dance.

justnonsense · Post by **justnonsense** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:03 am

YZGI;767534 wrote: I kinda know what its like when I try to dance.:DYou stole Obama's line. That's not fair..

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:05 am

justnonsense;767535 wrote: You stole Obama's line. That's not fair..
I stole Obama's line? You're kidding right? Obama said that?

justnonsense · Post by **justnonsense** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:13 am

YZGI;767538 wrote: I stole Obama's line? You're kidding right? Obama said that?Yes! When asked at the last (I think) debate about whether he recognized Bill Clinton as the first "black" president, he responded with something like (I'm paraphrasing) "In a sense, yes, but I would have to see him dance before I could call him a "brother"".

You're not watching, are you?

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:18 am

justnonsense;767547 wrote: Yes! When asked at the last (I think) debate about whether he recognized Bill Clinton as the first "black" president, he responded with something like (I'm paraphrasing) "In a sense, yes, but I would have to see him dance before I could call him a "brother"".

You're not watching, are you?
I try to catch the instant replays on ESPN. That way it can be seen in slow motion. I think his line was meant in a different way than mine. He wouldn't concede to him being the first Black President. Mine was refering to the fact that I feel out of place, not accepted, alien, goofy etc etc. when trying to dance.

grh · Post by **grh** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:56 am

YZGI;767555 wrote: I try to catch the instant replays on ESPN. That way it can be seen in slow motion. I think his line was meant in a different way than mine. He wouldn't concede to him being the first Black President. Mine was refering to the fact that I feel out of place, not accepted, alien, goofy etc etc. when trying to dance.

and that's different from how you feel the rest of the time how???:-2

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:57 am

grh;767574 wrote: and that's different from how you feel the rest of the time how???:-2
It was different until now, thank you very much.:wah:

grh · Post by **grh** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:46 pm

john edwards dropped out today. here's what i find curious

Veteran Democratic strategist Donna Brazile said both remaining candidates could benefit from Edwards's withdrawal: Obama might pick up those backers eager for change to add to his wins in Iowa and South Carolina, while Clinton could grab some of his hefty labor support.

why wouldn't B.O. get the labor vote?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:36 pm

grh;767842 wrote: john edwards dropped out today. here's what i find curious

why wouldn't B.O. get the labor vote?

Big business, big labor, big government -- big favors. Labor union leadership profits best from status quo.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:13 pm

grh;767842 wrote: john edwards dropped out today. here's what i find curious

why wouldn't B.O. get the labor vote?

Im surprised. I mean not really it was time but I thought hed hold out longer than this.

Rudy waited way too long.

grh · Post by **grh** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:38 pm

Nomad;768056 wrote: Im surprised. I mean not really it was time but I thought hed hold out longer than this.

Rudy waited way too long.

you see that biden quote on rudy?:wah:

Referring to Giuliani as "probably the most under-qualified person since George Bush to seek the presidency," Biden said the former New York mayor's presidential campaign message consists of "a noun, a verb and 9/11."

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:45 am

Clinton campaign manager Maggie Williams said in a statement: "Enough."

"If Barack Obama's campaign wants to suggest that a photo of him wearing traditional Somali clothing is divisive, they should be ashamed. Hillary Clinton has worn the traditional clothing of countries she has visited and had those photos published widely," Williams said.

She called the flap "nothing more than an obvious and transparent attempt to distract from the serious issues confronting our country today and to attempt to create the very divisions they claim to decry."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080225/ts_ ... olitics_dc

This is the smarmy thing i've been talking about before... i really think that if this keeps escalating it has the potential to create a huge divide within the party come november...

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:24 pm

Well whoever gets the nomination, I hope it's by a slim enough margin to prompt the other to run independent.

Then Ron Paul can run against the three big gov't liberals. :yh_bigsmi

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:51 pm

Accountable;784246 wrote: Well whoever gets the nomination, I hope it's by a slim enough margin to prompt the other to run independent.

Then Ron Paul can run against the three big gov't liberals. :yh_bigsmi

I thought he said he wouldn't run outside the party? have we ever done a poll for who would have voted for him if they thought he had an honest shot at getting elected...?

I would have.. wouldn't it be horrible if everyone else would have too:-2

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:03 am

Seems most people vote for who they think can win, rather than who's best for the job. :-5 I'm a cynic, but cynicism will be our downfall, I think.

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:34 am

This cracks me up!:yh_rotfl

Will Smith is Obama's pick to play him if a movie is made about his life, something the two have discussed.

"Will and I have talked about this because he has the ears!" the Illinois senator said in an interview slated to air Tuesday and Wednesday.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080226/ap_ ... vQLBNxFb8C

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:46 am

"And while Rev. Wright's statements have pained and angered me, I believe that Americans will judge me not on the basis of what someone else said, but on the basis of who I am and what I believe in; on my values, judgment and experience to be President of the United States." LINK

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Obama â€” who in a major speech Tuesday decried controversial remarks by the Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr. dating back to 2001 â€” called for Imus to be fired just one week after Imus made the remarks in April 2007, two months after Obama had announced his candidacy.

â€œThereâ€™s nobody on my staff who would still be working for me if they made a comment like that about anybody of any ethnic group. And I would hope that NBC ends up having that same attitude,â€ Obama told ABC News in an April 11 interview.

Imus ignited public outcry for calling members of the womenâ€™s basketball team at Rutgers University â€œnappy-headed hosâ€ on his popular morning talk show.

The controversy dogged Imus, even after he issued an apology to the team and met with the players personally seeking forgiveness.

The public atonement wasnâ€™t enough to save his job. He was fired by CBS Radio and by MSNBC, which produced the TV simulcast, but since then he has returned to radio with a show on WABC-AM in New York that started in December.

Obama said in the 2007 ABC interview he would never appear again on Imusâ€™ show.

â€œHe didnâ€™t just cross the line,â€ Obama said. â€œHe fed into some of the worst stereotypes that my two young daughters are having to deal with today in America.â€

LINK

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:43 am

rjwould;808518 wrote: The speech Obama gave was excellent...Personally, I don't think what Wright said was all that bad. He called a spade a spade....so...
So you believe White Man Government created HIV to get rid of the Black Man?

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:49 am

I saw a bit of Obama's speech last night, he certainly is a very impressive public speaker, and seems refreshingly different in his overall vision for the States than most recent politicans, he certainly has injected a note of the necessity for a it more realism in American politics, though I remember Tony Blair seemed a lot like that in Britain in 1997 and we all know how that ended up. Still, I think America could do a lot worse than elect him based on his performance so far, though any of the 3 major candiates would be a lot better than your man in the whitehouse at the moment, then again, almost anyone would seem better at this stage.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:33 am

rjwould;808518 wrote: The speech Obama gave was excellent...Personally, I don't think what Wright said was all that bad. He called a spade a spade....so...
My previous reply was a bit sharp and really off the point, so ...

My point was that he will say whatever he thinks he needs to say at the moment. I don't see anything beyond self-service in his actions. It seems he has a goal of President because that's the pentacle of his profession, not because of what good he can do in the office. The election seems to be an end rather than a means.

Maybe I need to change my criteria of who I want to be president. Because I'm an idealist I want an idealist, but Bush fits that bill. Clinton, for all his flaws, did a good practical job. Reagan struck a good balance between practicality and idealism.

I guess that's what I really want: a balance. We're in too deep a hole to be purely idealistic, but pure pragmatism just pisses me off, generally speaking. Ron Paul isn't practical enough. Barillary Obinton are too much practicality with no patriotism.

Holy crap. McCain??

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:54 am

rjwould;808784 wrote: Who doesn't say what they think they need to say at the moment? I know I do.
I often get that impression of you. Most people seeking leadership positions, however, anchor their comments on a firm foundation of beliefs. To not do so is shallow, such as how you responded to my first sentence without any hint of the clarification I was careful to state after it.

The leader of a nation needs to have a firm and obvious foundation of principles to live by. I don't see that with Obama. I'm not saying it doesn't exit, only that it's not obvious to me.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:30 pm

rjwould;809043 wrote: Obviously.

So let me see if I understand this.

You are saying that a person who states what they think needs to be said at the time is a liability unless the terms of which he or she has said it has a strong foundation on which to anchor their comments.yes rjwould wrote: Using me as an example, my comments are shallow because my foundation is weak, as is Obama's.Apparentlyrjwould wrote: Where do you fall in? Are you the great leader we all seek?:wah: Too much idealist, not enough politician. I make enough of a fool of myself without a world stage.rjwould wrote: You stated in an earlier post that Bush, Reagan and Clinton did a fairly good job of balancing ideology and reality.Whoa! Clinton & Reagan. There's nothing remotely balanced about Bush.

rjwould wrote: My question to you is, how do you determine another persons foundation? Where do you get that insight? Are the future great leaders those in your classroom? Besides attempting to be insulting, what is your point?[quote=rjwould]Critical listening and empathy are skills that virtually anyone can learn, but take practice. Listening for consistency of thought, opinion, etc can easily reveal a person's character.

My classroom is not to mold tomorrow's great leaders, but to prevent tomorrow's statistic.

My kids have alot stacked against them, so family leader is a great and noble goal for them.

The point of my last post was to get you to read my previous post more thoroughly, which you've done. Thank you.

[quote=rjwould]Why don't you simply accept words at face value, and stop trying to look behind them for some cosmic or special meaning, intended or unintended? People usually say exactly what they mean..And for your information, every person has a right to be respected for their foundation, regardless of what your opinion of it is.

You don't trust politicians.......so....It's through analyzing people's words that I glean their character, their foundation. Simply accepting words is fine for small talk and novels, but I want to know a person's character if I'm to give them the endorsement of my vote.

I tend to think deeply when I am serious, which is seldom. I converse passionately about those things I feel passionately about, as do you. I believe that if someone, including me, are going to form and/or state an opinion on an important matter, they need to understand the basis of that opinion. We can't do that without examining it, questioning it, challenging it. If the foundation is strong it will stand and we will be firmer in our understanding of it. If the opinion doesn't stand scrutiny, then it's good to have it exposed as faulty and be rid of it.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:43 pm

rjwould;809185 wrote: I did read your post throughly, you just were looking for more than I posted and had a hissy fit because of it....Are you aware of that about yourself?
I'm aware that we both toss barbs when we have a sore spot poked.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:06 am

Here's an excellent example why we shouldn't "simply accept words at face value." It's an analysis of Obama's latest speech.

Three Big Problems With Barack's Speech

By Michael Medved

Wednesday, March 19, 2008

The reactions to Barack Obamaâ€™s widely celebrated Philadelphia speech have generally fallen into two categories.

First, and most obviously, weâ€™ve been deluged with rapturous and emotional responses, as sometimes tearful commentators described the address as a life-changing, history-making, barrier-busting, altogether unforgettable experience. To TV producer Norman Lear, â€œObama reached for the stars. And he found them.â€ On MSNBC, Sally Quinn hailed the speech as one of the greatest in all human history, then later retreated to proclaim it merely â€œthe greatest in 45 years.â€ Andrew Sullivan expressed similar enthusiasm, and delivered the verdict that â€œthis searing, nuanced, gut-wrenching, loyal and deeply, deeply Christian speech is the most honest speech on race in America in my adult lifetime. It is a speech we have all been waiting for for a generation.â€

More analytical comments from political insiders evaluated the speech in a practical perspective, admiring Obamaâ€™s deft effort to minimize the damage to his candidacy from the widely-condemned, outrageously anti-American comments by his long-time â€œspiritual mentor,â€ Pastor Jeremiah Wright. In this regard, the Senator clearly attempted to end the argument by changing the subject â€“ deflecting questions about his twenty-year involvement in a radical Afro-centric church by broadening the discussion to cover four hundred years of race-relations in America. While even the most cynical observers acknowledged the talkâ€™s soaring ambition and lucid prose, they divided on whether it would achieve its principal purpose by closing the book on the Wright controversy and restoring momentum to the Obama campaign.

Both of the common reactions to the Philadelphia speech â€“ either praising it for its emotional and inspirational impact, or analyzing it in terms of its strategic political consequences â€“ fail to come to terms with its substance, or to recognize the more troubling elements in the address. Barackâ€™s big moment features content that is shamelessly manipulative, blatantly misleading, deliberately deceptive and even dishonest.

Misleading Comparisons. At several points in his talk, Obama directly equates the controversy over the Reverend Dr. Wright to the dispute over remarks by Geraldine Ferraro suggesting that the candidate wouldnâ€™t be a leading presidential contender if he were white. After lamenting the fact that â€œthe discussion of race in the campaign has taken a particularly divisive turn,â€ the Illinois Senator notes that â€œon one end of the spectrum, weâ€™ve heard the implication that my candidacy is somehow an exercise in affirmative actionâ€¦.On the other end, weâ€™ve heard my former pastor, Reverend Jeremiah Wright, use incendiary language to express views that have the potentialâ€¦to widen the racial divideâ€¦.â€ Later, he pushes the same equation between comments by Ferraro and the unhinged sermons by Wright. â€œWe can dismiss Reverend Wright as a crank or a demagogue, just as some have dismissed Geraldine Ferraro, in the aftermath of her recent statements, as harboring some deep-seated racial bias.â€

The comparison between the two firestorms amounts to a slick but unfair attack on Geraldine Ferraro and, by implication, her candidate, Hillary Clinton. No one in either campaign has defended the enraged remarks by Jeremiah Wright (â€œGod d---n America!â€ or blaming the government for deliberately creating the AIDS virus) as legitimate or worthy of serious debate, but many responsible politicos and pundits agree with Ferraroâ€™s observation that his race played an essential role in Barackâ€™s rise. Moreover, Wrightâ€™s comments reflect a long, consistent career of impassioned hostility to the â€œwhite power structureâ€ that runs â€œthe U.S. of KKK- A,â€ while no one had ever before accused the reliably liberal Ferraro of racial animus of any kind.

An even worse comparison involved Barackâ€™s exploitation of his own grandmother (who is still alive) to make a political point. Regarding his on-going relationship with his former pastor, Obama sonorously declares: â€œI could no more disown him than I can my white grandmother, a woman who helped raise meâ€¦.but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe.â€

This wretched analogy should make all of us cringe: thereâ€™s no arguable equivalence between his grandmotherâ€™s very private kitchen-table remarks (no matter how insensitive) and the very public and thunderous sermons of a famous clergyman addressing thousands of his congregants and later selling his hateful remarks on DVD. Thereâ€™s also a world of difference between breaking with a blood relative whose home you occupied as a child, and creating distance with a religious mentor you selected as an adult. No one gets to choose his grandmother, but we do choose our pastors, priests and rabbis. Obamaâ€™s selection of Wright as his guide and guru says something profound about his judgment and outlook, while his connection with his grandmother reflects only the accidents of his birth and upbringing.

Distortion of Wrightâ€™s Afro-Centric Theology. In his address, Obama many times references the â€œcomments,â€ â€œremarksâ€ or â€œstatements of Reverend Wright that have caused such controversy.â€ He speaks of â€œthe snippets of those sermons that have run in an endless loop on the television and You Tubeâ€ as providing the basis for â€œthe caricatures being peddled by some commentatorsâ€¦.â€

Regarding this claim that revulsion to Wright emerged from a few randomly â€œcherry-pickedâ€ declarations, Pastor Frank Pina, a dynamic church leader who heads a vibrant multi-ethnic congregation in Everett, Washington, sent me an insightful e-mail. â€œWhat I heard coming from Rev. Wright was not just a phrase taken out of context, but a philosophy,â€ he wrote. â€œAnd if you listen to all the different controversial statements, the GD America Sermon (not just a few statements) pretty much sums up the philosophy. And the way the congregation responds lets us know that the philosophy is not just the pastorâ€™s, but the churchâ€™s. The point Iâ€™m trying to make is that making an inflammatory statement (or two) is not the same as a churchâ€™s or pastorâ€™s philosophy. And if Obama didnâ€™t know the pastorâ€™s philosophy after being a member of the church for over 20 yearsâ€¦it speaks to the lack of judgment he has.â€

Even the most cursory examination of the character of Wrightâ€™s congregation, Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, demonstrates that Reverend Pinaâ€™s point is both valid and powerful. The website for the congregation begins with an introductory paragraph under the heading, â€œAbout Us,â€ that unequivocally proclaims: â€œWe are an African people, and remain â€˜true to our native land,â€™ the mother continent, the cradle of civilization.â€

For many years, the next paragraph (recently removed due to the Wright controversy) appeared on the website and shamelessly explained explained: â€œTrinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value Systemâ€¦.We believe in the following twelve precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered.â€ Those â€œprecepts and covenantal statementsâ€ include, â€œCommitment to the Black Communityâ€ (Number 2), â€œDisavowal of the Pursuit of â€˜Middleclassnessâ€™â€ (Number 8), â€œPledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System (Number 11) and â€œPersonal Commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.â€ (Number 12).

A simple thought experiment can clarify the questionable nature of the ideology of Jeremiah Wrightâ€™s church. Try replacing the word â€œblackâ€ in the material above with the word â€œwhite,â€ and youâ€™d see a perfect definition of the spiritual approach of the â€œAryan Nationsâ€ or â€œChristian Identity Movementâ€ or other neo-Nazi fringe groups.

Could the American people truly accept a President who chose long-term affiliation with an organization that says that â€œBlack Ethicsâ€¦must be taughtâ€ and requires â€œPersonal Commitment to embracement of the Black Value Systemâ€ --- not the American Value System, or the Universal Value System, or, pointedly, even the Christian Value System.

Obamaâ€™s church publicly and unapologetically promoted a â€œValue Systemâ€ based on racial identity, not common heritage or American patriotism

The additional â€œ10-point Visionâ€ of Revrend Wright (still featured on the church website) specifies â€œA congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.â€ Nowhere in the â€œ10-point Visionâ€ or the â€œtwelve preceptsâ€ or the 25 course offerings for religious education or in any other church materials do the organizers of Trinity mention anything at all about loyalty to the United States of America, or service to the nation that hosts the church, or gratitude to the amazingly benevolent society that has embraced one of the congregationâ€™s members as a leading presidential candidate.

If Joe Lieberman had affiliated for twenty years with a synagogue that never offered prayers for America and its government (as nearly all Orthodox Jewish synagogues do, in fact), but instead emphasized a â€œnon-negotiable COMMITMENT TO ISRAEL,â€ wouldnâ€™t voters have questioned his outlook and judgment when he ran for Vice President?

In his speech, Obama suggests that his fellow citizens recoiled against Reverend Wright only because they failed to understand that his bitter rage stemmed from centuries of oppression and injustice. â€œThe fact that so many people are surprised to hear that anger in some of Reverend Wrightâ€™s sermons simply reminds us of the old truism that the most segregated hour in American life occurs on Sunday morning.â€

Does Obama decry, or encourage, that segregation? If he condemns it, then why would he maintain a long-term commitment to a purposefully segregated, race-based congregation that elevates a mystical sense of â€œblacknessâ€ above Christianity, Americanism or common humanity?

Changing the Core Message of His Campaign. In all the ecstatic praise for Obamaâ€™s speech, thereâ€™s been little comment on the way the talk signals a dramatic, permanent, and possibly fatal alteration of his race for the presidency.

Until today, the Illinois Senator enjoyed spectacular success with his determination to run as the first-ever â€œpost-racialâ€ candidate for the White House.

He refused to allow himself to be pigeon-holed as â€œthe black candidate,â€ and tirelessly emphasized his desire to unify the nation (â€œWeâ€™re not red states or blue statesâ€”weâ€™re the United States of America!â€). His campaign succeeded in large part because he implicitly promised to move our society beyond the long and tragic centuries of racial agitation and pain. Yes, he won overwhelming support in the black community, but he also drew huge majorities in states like Iowa, North Dakota, Idaho and Utah, with miniscule populations of African-Americans.

For more than a year, Obama has been offering a weary nation an irresistible deal. As Hoover Institution scholar Shelby Steele observed in his superb book â€œA Bound Man,â€ Barack represented the ultimate â€œbargainerâ€ in a long history of African-American leaders who became popular by suggesting they could reduce white Americaâ€™s burden of guilt. By generally avoiding discussion of race or race relations, Obama suggested that in supporting his candidacy, Americans could finally escape from the hurts and resentments of the past.

Hereâ€™s the deal, he seemed to say: if you elect me, we can at last put an end to all the lectures and breast-beating about our brutal racist history. When I stand on the steps of the Capitol building and take the oath of office as your president, that very act will put an end- forever- to the idea of African-Americans as second-class citizens. Rather than endless recriminations and accusations, weâ€™ll all stand together as equals in the eyes of God and the U.S. Constitution.

Millions of Americans â€“ including some conservatives who should have known better- rushed to take that deal, and embraced Obamaâ€™s candidacy.

But now, at a decisive point in the race, the candidate has abruptly changed the bargain.

Rather than promising less race consciousness, he now insists we need more. Instead of bidding to lead a post-racial-- or at least a post-racistâ€”America, Obamaâ€™s speech tells us we must go back to picking at the old scab.

Actually, Barack was right the first time: putting race aside, affirming our common Americanism and humanity, can serve to heal old divides. Obsessing on racial divisions, focusing on â€œblacknessâ€ or â€œwhiteness,â€ perpetuating the eternal cycle of grudge and guilt, only intensifies the fever associated with the nationâ€™s most menacing disease.

Bill Clinton also believed that we needed more talk about race, and as president he participated in a series of televised â€œpublic dialoguesâ€ (amounting to tiresome gripe fests) that achieved nothing at all other than underlining Slick Willieâ€™s enlightenment and compassion.

If the Obama campaign follows up on his over-praised speech and makes intensified race-talk into a new national priority, he may well destroy his chances of winning the presidency. The most â€œprogressiveâ€ wing of the Democratic Party could celebrate prospect that a President Obama would get countless opportunities to deliver more lectures on slavery, Jim Crow, oppression, and race differences.

But less politically correct Americans may prove notably less eager to seize the chance for additional solemn scolding sessions like the one they just heard in Philadelphia. Most voters, black as well as white, feel weary and wary of the destructive cycle of accusation and apology, so that Obamaâ€™s new implied promise of a presidency of endless race-based agitation may well constitute an offer that we easily can refuse.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:32 pm

rjwould;810527 wrote: SOMEBODY----SAVE ME!!!

You're only justifying your paranoia..For Gods sake, give it a rest.....You over analyze so much...Quoting someone else's paranoia does not help....it hurts..
:wah: You sound like my beloved.

Snidely Whiplash · Post by **Snidely Whiplash** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:02 am

grh;755369 wrote: That's all I'm sayin':p

We keep hearing about poor hillarys awful taste in men and hairdoos..

What, if any- are the gardeners real feeling regarding the senator from the Great State of Illinois?

Trusting the Obama;s with the White house, reminds me of the first time you parents trust your home to your teenage children when you go on a summer vacation without them.. You know they aren't bad kids really, maybe a little misguided at times, or influenced by some poor choices for friends and role models over the years, but they might do okay if you give them a chance...?? But this little voice in your head just keeps telling you when you hand them the keys to the house and drive away in that taxicab for the summer, all hell is going to break loose at some point, and you're going to have one heck of a mess to clean up when you get home.... :wah:

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:06 pm

Snidely Whiplash;842112 wrote: Trusting the Obama;s with the White house, reminds me of the first time you parents trust your home to your teenage children when you go on a summer vacation without them.. You know they aren't bad kids really, maybe a little misguided at times, or influenced by some poor choices for friends and role models over the years, but they might do okay if you give them a chance...?? But this little voice in your head just keeps telling you when you hand them the keys to the house and drive away in that taxicab for the summer, all hell is going to break loose at some point, and you're going to have one heck of a mess to clean up when you get home.... :wah:

But you do that at least once every eight years, surely.

And every now and again you re-elect someone you already know will wreck the joint whilst you're away.

Snidely Whiplash · Post by **Snidely Whiplash** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:48 pm

Bryn Mawr;842336 wrote: But you do that at least once every eight years, surely.

And every now and again you re-elect someone you already know will wreck the joint whilst you're away.

Well, if the truth be known, I secretly looove Hilary, if you must know..... Her pant suits and turquoise puca shell necklaces rock, and that brown pant suit she wore at a previous debate, whoa, it reminded me of a female UPS driver who delivers in my nieborhood... LOL.. ...!!!:-4 :wah: And beyond that, Hilary is like my most beloved old Aunt who I used to visit after school when I had a bad day....

My favorite Aunt, who would fix my skinned knee, or the ridicule my classmates had aimed at me, by patting me on the head, giving me a hug, shoving a dollar bill into my empty pocket, and telling me just exactly what I needed to hear that day to feel better, even though I knew in my heart every word was a total lie, just to make me feel better..... But it did.... That day.... The next day I had to go back into the real world, and face life where my kind old Aunt was never around...???? LOL.. :wah:

I do nothing every 8 years above poster.......... :-2 I fight for whats right every single day.......

The above post is sarcasm.... I Don't have a Hilary sign stuck in my front lawn..... Muuuaaaaaaaahhhhh..... Lol