Obama and the Muslims

[QUINNSCOMMENTARY]

There were scurrilous e-mails circulated on the internet that Barack Obama was a Muslim. That is not true, he is Christian. However, what is true is that his father was a Muslim and under Islamic law, the son of a Muslim is Muslim. That means that Obama by changing to Christianity (even if he was raised that way and had little early choice) is, under Islamic Law an apostate. Under Islamic law, an apostate is subject to death. That may be hard to comprehend with Western mindsets, but it is a fact nevertheless.

So, the question is how will Islamic leaders around the world relate to Obama as President? How will Muslim radicals use this information against the US and the West in general?

Clearly, it is in reality irrelevant in the scheme of things, which is to our way of thinking, but we should never underestimate the Muslim mind or religion.

Check here for more on the World View

[Bryn Mawr]

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;870916 wrote: There were scurrilous e-mails circulated on the internet that Barack Obama was a Muslim. That is not true, he is Christian. However, what is true is that his father was a Muslim and under Islamic law, the son of a Muslim is Muslim. That means that Obama by changing to Christianity (even if he was raised that way and had little early choice) is, under Islamic Law an apostate. Under Islamic law, an apostate is subject to death. That may be hard to comprehend with Western mindsets, but it is a fact nevertheless.

So, the question is how will Islamic leaders around the world relate to Obama as President? How will Muslim radicals use this information against the US and the West in general?

Clearly, it is in reality irrelevant in the scheme of things, which is to our way of thinking, but we should never underestimate the Muslim mind or religion.

Check here for more on the World View


And if that is not a cynical ploy by his political opponents to damage his election chances then I'm a dutchman's uncle.

[spot]

It's staggering bullshit too, regardless of its intention. it fails on the ground of logic ("That means that Obama by changing to Christianity" ignores the fact that he was born Christian), it fails on the ground of truth (many Muslims convert to Christianity and though apostate are not subject to death, there was quite a respectable serious program on Radio 4 last week by a British Muslim discussing the question with other one-time Muslims, some of whom are now rabidly fervent born-again Christians).

There are flavours of Islam just as there are flavours of Christianity. Of course you can find a Muslim spokesman or a Muslim region which declares apostasy a crime punishable by death. That doesn't make it a typical region or a representative spokesman. You're still more likely to die by lightning strike on horseback than under sentence of death for apostasy.

[flopstock]

Bryn Mawr;870929 wrote: And if that is not a cynical ploy by his political opponents to damage his election chances then I'm a dutchman's uncle.


Actually I would think this would not be to the advantage of his opponents. The fact that he chose not to be Muslim and that choice apparently has dire consequences (if enforced) - can't be viewed as anything but a commitment to his Christian faith- which the religious right has to approve of, I would think.

[spot]

flopstock;871009 wrote: The fact that he chose not to be MuslimNo he didn't.Obama explained his connection to Islam in this way:

"My father was from Kenya,” he said, “and a lot of people in his village were Muslim. He didn’t practice Islam. Truth is he wasn’t very religious. He met my mother. My mother was a Christian from Kansas, and they married and then divorced. I was raised by my mother. So, I’ve always been a Christian.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/ ... 31492.aspx



Why is it so important to people to lie about this?

[flopstock]

spot;871022 wrote: No he didn't.Obama explained his connection to Islam in this way:

"My father was from Kenya,” he said, “and a lot of people in his village were Muslim. He didn’t practice Islam. Truth is he wasn’t very religious. He met my mother. My mother was a Christian from Kansas, and they married and then divorced. I was raised by my mother. So, I’ve always been a Christian.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/ ... 31492.aspx



Why is it so important to people to lie about this?


I don't think it's a lie. And I just don't see what the big deal is with you here. His father was Muslim. His stepfather was Muslim. He attended both Muslim and Christian schools(HE SAYS) - so what's the big deal?

My mother was catholic. So I was raised Catholic. I went to Catholic and non Catholic schools. I chose not to be Catholic. Just like Obama chooses not to be Muslim. I'm pretty sure that Clinton and McCain choose not to be Muslim also.

Just because you don't care for how something is worded, Spot - does not make it a lie.

[spot]

His very simple statement that "I’ve always been a Christian" carries no conviction with you?

Or is this along the same lines as I chose not to be a Jedi or a Satanist or a Roman Catholic or a Hindu, for the simple reason that I never considered it?

"Clinton and McCain choose not to be Muslim also" doesn't carry the implication of having been one and deliberately choosing to renounce the faith. This entire discussion started on apostasy, remember? The lie that Obama's an apostate?

As for Islam's practice, I'd venture to guess that more witches are killed this year by Christians for the crime of witchcraft because the Bible tells them to than Muslim apostates by Muslims for apostacy, how's that?

[flopstock]

spot;871051 wrote: His very simple statement that "I’ve always been a Christian" carries no conviction with you?

Or is this along the same lines as I chose not to be a Jedi or a Satanist or a Roman Catholic or a Hindu, for the simple reason that I never considered it?


His very simple statement tells me that he chose not to be a Muslim. I am not a farmer- never have been. My daughters family on her fathers side are farmers. They have always been farmers. Once she is an adult, she will choose either to be a farmer (like them)or not to be a farmer. If she opts to be something other then a farmer, it is not a lie for anyone else to then mention that she was exposed to farming in her early and formative years and chose not to take that path.

His environment had quite a bit more Muslim traffic then mine ever has.... and even I have wondered what the religion would be like. If you are saying he never even examined the possibility, you are damning him more -IMO- then those that say he chose Christianity.

[flopstock]

spot;871051 wrote: His very simple statement that "I’ve always been a Christian" carries no conviction with you?

Or is this along the same lines as I chose not to be a Jedi or a Satanist or a Roman Catholic or a Hindu, for the simple reason that I never considered it?

"Clinton and McCain choose not to be Muslim also" doesn't carry the implication of having been one and deliberately choosing to renounce the faith. This entire discussion started on apostasy, remember? The lie that Obama's an apostate?

As for Islam's practice, I'd venture to guess that more witches are killed this year by Christians for the crime of witchcraft because the Bible tells them to than Muslim apostates by Muslims for apostacy, how's that?


1. Do me a favor and don't add paragraphs to earlier posts without noting it. It makes it look like I'm ignoring some pithy comment of yours because I have no comeback..:p

2. The Clinton and McCain paragraph - refer to my recent reply and farmer analogy. If they had had the exposure to it that Obama has, it would have the same implication, IMO. His exposure to so much more of the world at such a young and impressionable age is one of his selling points, IMO - not something that could be used affectively against him. His view is not quite so narrow, IMO - because of his differences.

But I am considered Cathoic, because my mother was. Are you saying that it is not true that sons born of Muslim fathers are considered Muslim- by Muslims? That's not what I saw when I googled it a bit ago... I will go look again when i get a moment later...

3. You are talking to the wrong girl with regards to Christians. I've never been surprised at what Christians will do in the name of their god. I've always been kinda surprised that if their god exists, she hasn't come down to visit and wipe up the earth with those supposed Christians...

[QUINNSCOMMENTARY]

You are all missing the point. This is not about what Obama did or didn't do. Rather it is about the perception of him by countries who use Islamic Law and Muslim radicals who he may have to deal with. It is not about liberal Muslims who do not abide by Islamic Law it is about those who live by it to the letter of the law.

[flopstock]

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;871183 wrote: You are all missing the point. This is not about what Obama did or didn't do. Rather it is about the perception of him by countries who use Islamic Law and Muslim radicals who he may have to deal with. It is not about liberal Muslims who do not abide by Islamic Law it is about those who live by it to the letter of the law.


Nah, darlin... we didn't miss any point. We simply veered off onto what we viewed as more interesting regarding Obama and his religion..:p

Here's why what you think the point is doesn't interest me so much, other then its Muslim bashing potential... every leader around the world will have to deal with a different kind of leader- no matter who is elected. They do this at a minimum of every 8 years, sometimes they are called upon to adjust their thinking even more often. So what else is new?

Muslims will want to kill him... skinheads will want to kill him... Clinton supporters will try to take him out... right wing conservatives will make him totally ineffectual... the religious right will come out in force to keep him from being elected .... big business is absolutely going to be out to sabotage the campaign...

Bottom line quinn.... it's always gonna be something, isn't it? It's always gonna be someone, isn't it? It's always gonna be some group, isn't it?

Bottom line for me.... if he's got the balls to go for it, it most definitely is NOT my place to say he shouldn't simply because Muslims or any other group of folks might have issues with him.

[flopstock]

Jester;871189 wrote: I think that Obama is playing himself as the 'go talk to them guy', the 'diplomatic negotiator'... he's realisticly going to have a difficult time doing that IF the Muslum countries in question regard his status as an apastate muslum are taken seriously.

I think its an issue that deserves consideration, but in the end doesnt make much of a difference since all of these type factions hate the US anyway.


Exactly! And it not like he's doing the actual talking, that's what the diplomats are out there for. But the folks that aren't interested in good relations with us will always find something to hang their hat on... might as well be this.

there... i've considered it... just for you..

[cars]

I just read an article in a mag today, that had this published poll.



It said: If a gun was put to your head today to force you to vote for the Democratic Ticket, How would you vote?



53% said they would vote for Obama.



16% said they would vote for Clinton.



31% said they would take the bullet!

[spot]

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;871183 wrote: It is not about liberal Muslims who do not abide by Islamic Law it is about those who live by it to the letter of the law.


Not only are there extremists but you'll do everything you can to push all your enemies into that camp, eh? That's disgusting but rather revealing at the same time.

These people you refer to as "liberal Muslims" would huffily insist that they do abide by Islamic Law, of course. Even though you so much want them to go extreme.

Here, a couple of lines about who's a Muslim. Nothing in any Muslim tradition defines a Muslim as someone who had one or more Muslim parents:Most Muslims accept as a Muslim anyone who has publicly pronounced the Shahadah, which states, "There is none worthy of worship except God, and Muhammad is His Messenger."

A single honest recitation of the Shahadah in Arabic is all that is required for a person to become a Muslim according to most traditional schools.There are two categories of Muslim Apostate, one's "Murtad Milli", an apostate who had converted into Islam initially from a previous belief, and the other's "Murtad Fitri", an apostate who was born of Muslim parents and subsequently recited the Shahadah. Nothing whatever about having had a father who was born Muslim and had then declared himself atheist in earlier life.

Obama says, very explicitly, that he was always a Christian, that he never declared himself Muslim. How do you describe him as a Muslim apostate when no Muslim would regard him as one, "extremist" or otherwise?

[QUINNSCOMMENTARY]

spot;871317 wrote: Not only are there extremists but you'll do everything you can to push all your enemies into that camp, eh? That's disgusting but rather revealing at the same time.

These people you refer to as "liberal Muslims" would huffily insist that they do abide by Islamic Law, of course. Even though you so much want them to go extreme.

Here, a couple of lines about who's a Muslim. Nothing in any Muslim tradition defines a Muslim as someone who had one or more Muslim parents:Most Muslims accept as a Muslim anyone who has publicly pronounced the Shahadah, which states, "There is none worthy of worship except God, and Muhammad is His Messenger."

A single honest recitation of the Shahadah in Arabic is all that is required for a person to become a Muslim according to most traditional schools.There are two categories of Muslim Apostate, one's "Murtad Milli", an apostate who had converted into Islam initially from a previous belief, and the other's "Murtad Fitri", an apostate who was born of Muslim parents and subsequently recited the Shahadah. Nothing whatever about having had a father who was born Muslim and had then declared himself atheist in earlier life.

Obama says, very explicitly, that he was always a Christian, that he never declared himself Muslim. How do you describe him as a Muslim apostate when no Muslim would regard him as one, "extremist" or otherwise?


Isn't that a little like saying a boy born of Jewish parents is not Jewish? I don't say Obama was ever a Muslim or ever practiced any religion other than what he says, that is not the point.

[flopstock]

Was Barack Obama a Muslim?

by Daniel Pipes

FrontPageMagazine.com

December 24, 2007

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/5286



Confirmed: Barack Obama Practiced Islam

by Daniel Pipes

FrontPageMagazine.com

January 7, 2008

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/5354

This stuff isn't even new crap. And here I thought I was getting some new thoughts or ideas presented. Not only is it unoriginal, it's not even attributed material....

The question raised isn't even original...:rolleyes:

[spot]

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;873110 wrote: Isn't that a little like saying a boy born of Jewish parents is not Jewish? I don't say Obama was ever a Muslim or ever practiced any religion other than what he says, that is not the point.


Where does "a boy born of Jewish parents is not Jewish" come from?

Muslim is a religious affiliation. I could become a Muslim, as could you or the Archbishop of Canterbury or the Pope. It takes an informed declaration of faith. Obama says he's never made such an informed declaration of faith. It seems inconceivable to be that he ever did. Does Daniel Pipes have a political axe to grind, and do US political commentators twist the truth for political advantage? Do bears crap in the woods?

I can't become a Jew. I can practice the Jewish faith but that doesn't make me a Jew. To be a Jew I have to have a Jewish mother (as opposed to parent). I might never in my entire life practice a single aspect of the Jewish faith but I'm still a Jew, granted my maternal inheritance. If my father were a Jew but not my mother then I'm not a Jew however many times I attend Synagogue. Go ask a Rabbi.

[QUINNSCOMMENTARY]

spot;873248 wrote: Where does "a boy born of Jewish parents is not Jewish" come from?

Muslim is a religious affiliation. I could become a Muslim, as could you or the Archbishop of Canterbury or the Pope. It takes an informed declaration of faith. Obama says he's never made such an informed declaration of faith. It seems inconceivable to be that he ever did. Does Daniel Pipes have a political axe to grind, and do US political commentators twist the truth for political advantage? Do bears crap in the woods?

I can't become a Jew. I can practice the Jewish faith but that doesn't make me a Jew. To be a Jew I have to have a Jewish mother (as opposed to parent). I might never in my entire life practice a single aspect of the Jewish faith but I'm still a Jew, granted my maternal inheritance. If my father were a Jew but not my mother then I'm not a Jew however many times I attend Synagogue. Go ask a Rabbi.


I think we got a little off the track here, my original contention was only that Obama could be perceived in certain quarters as an apostate, I never said he was or met that definition.

"In any case, Generally, in modern secular usage, Jews include three groups: people who were born to a Jewish family regardless of whether or not they follow the religion, those who have some Jewish ancestral background or lineage (sometimes including those who do not have strictly matrilineal descent), and people without any Jewish ancestral background or lineage who have formally converted to Judaism and therefore are followers of the religion. At times conversion has accounted for a substantial part of Jewish population growth. In the first century of the Christian era, for example, population more than doubled, from 4 to 8–10 million within the confines of the Roman Empire, in good part as a result of a wave of conversion. "

[spot]

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;874238 wrote: I think we got a little off the track here, my original contention was only that Obama could be perceived in certain quarters as an apostate, I never said he was or met that definition. "That means that Obama by changing to Christianity" ignores the fact that he was born Christian. They're your words, nobody else's. "under Islamic law, the son of a Muslim is Muslim" are your words, nobody else's. Perhaps you can produce some unbiased evidence for either assertion. The only going off track I can see at the moment is you back-pedaling for dear life.

You might even like to define "apostate" for us, merely changing religion (not that this applies to Obama) isn't enough to warrant a death sentence even in the most rare and extreme Islamic interpretation. That may be hard to comprehend with Western mindsets, but it is a fact nevertheless.

You've constructed an Aunt Sally in order to knock her over in full view of an admiring audience. It's a fake argument. If your assertions were all true then wow, yes, poor Obama, what a shocker for him and he never even saw it coming. If you can't justify the assertions then it's simple shoddy mud-slinging.

[flopstock]

Went to the library yesterday and got Dreams From My Father for myself and Barack Obama "We Are One People" - a biography - out of the childrens library for my nine year old.

Haven't opened mine yet, but loving hers... very well written, IMO.

The coolest thing so far has nothing at all to do with what I am reading....

Gina saw his picture on the front of the book and asked me if that's one of the guys who is running for president.

She didn't ask me if he was the black guy, the half black guy, the muslim guy, the liberal guy or even the guy with 2 daughters... to her , he's just another guy running for president..:-6

[Accountable]

flopstock;874368 wrote: Went to the library yesterday and got Dreams From My Father for myself and Barack Obama "We Are One People" - a biography - out of the childrens library for my nine year old.



Haven't opened mine yet, but loving hers... very well written, IMO.



The coolest thing so far has nothing at all to do with what I am reading....



Gina saw his picture on the front of the book and asked me if that's one of the guys who is running for president.



She didn't ask me if he was the black guy, the half black guy, the muslim guy, the liberal guy or even the guy with 2 daughters... to her , he's just another guy running for president..:-6Good job, Mom! :yh_clap

[Accountable]

spot;874264 wrote: "That means that Obama by changing to Christianity" ignores the fact that he was born Christian.
Tsk Tsk! No one's born Christian, silly. It's not an ethnicity. :yh_youkid

[spot]

Accountable;874402 wrote: Tsk Tsk! No one's born Christian, silly. It's not an ethnicity. :yh_youkid


And yet people can be born Muslim? I think not. Trade like for like.

"I’ve always been a Christian" is the direct quote which I paraphrased into the context of the accusation. Were it not for the context I'd not have used the expression, I agree it's meaningless.

[Bryn Mawr]

Jester;871148 wrote: I dont think it matters one bit, no one is born anything, except human.

And the point here isnt about what one was or is now, its about the muslum perception that he was once born muslum and is now chirstain by his admission, making him an apostate in thier eyes and under thier law.

The question is how will thier perception of his alleged apastacy play out in diplomacy to those nations that may view him that way.

In reality I still think they want to kick Bush's hiney way more.


How does this relate to your belief that we are born Christian because we have an innate knowledge of God and the Bible build into us?

[Bryn Mawr]

Jester;874941 wrote: I never said anybody was born christain, I said we are all born with an innate knowledge that God exists, and that he is the creator. Other than that knowledge we are born at emnity with God.


But you then went on to say that, therefore, anyone who did not follow the dictates of the Bible was damn'd as they had rejected God by denying that innate knowledge - thus that innate knowledge must be Christian.

[Galbally]

Hey! In all this talk, has anyone noticed that Obama guy is black!



Holy cow, a black christian, jewish muslim, environmentalist, socialist, elitist social worker, he has all the bases covered!



Actually, he is Irish as well you know, we are already getting the bunting ready for the homecoming to County Mayo! Yipeeeee! :guitarist

[Bryn Mawr]

Galbally;875775 wrote: Hey! In all this talk, has anyone noticed that Obama guy is black!



Holy cow, a black christian, jewish muslim, environmentalist, socialist, elitist social worker, he has all the bases covered!



Actually, he is Irish as well you know, we are already getting the bunting ready for the homecoming to County Mayo! Yipeeeee! :guitarist


Wonderful :wah:

How many Presidents would that make that are Irish?

[Galbally]

Bryn Mawr;875783 wrote: Wonderful :wah:

How many Presidents would that make that are Irish?


A lot more than let on about it, it must be the Kennedy thing! :wah:



(No disrespect to Sen. Edward Kennedy of course, I was on about JFK)

[Bryn Mawr]

Galbally;875791 wrote: A lot more than let on about it, it must be the Kennedy thing! :wah:



(No disrespect to Sen. Edward Kennedy of course, I was on about JFK)


I'm sure I remember a queue forming - from Ronald Reagan to George Bush - all claiming Irish descent?

[Galbally]

Bryn Mawr;875797 wrote: I'm sure I remember a queue forming - from Ronald Reagan to George Bush - all claiming Irish descent?


Yeah, but what about Lincoln, Washington, Andrew Jackson, Teddy Roosvevelt (don't be fooled by the name its Irish spelling is O'Rooshin). :wah:

Nah you are right, its all become very popular in the states to link yourself with the enourmous Irish American lobby, after all they reckon 40 Million US citizens have a bit of Irish in them, and I would hope the ladies would like a bit more Irish in them as well. :rolleyes:

In any case, yes Obama does seem to have some Irish ancestry as well, so he could be accused by some of being a black, Irish, Muslim, feminist; you gotta love those odds though ain't ya? I have to say, I think he's great, whether he will really turn out to be a good President, (or even win the election) is another issue, but he makes a big change from Bush, though at this stage, I think people would prefer Britney as President rather than George, mama, whatta misaka to make!