the uninsured.
and people claiming they can't get a job annoy me too!
Like I said try Walmart, you'll kill two birds with one stone. Oh, and you get a discount on all your shopping which is a another bonus. :rolleyes:
The Welfare State
The Welfare State
rjwould;905320 wrote: Who are you referring to?
the uninsured.
and people claiming they can't get a job annoy me too!
Like I said try Walmart, you'll kill two birds with one stone. Oh, and you get a discount on all your shopping which is a another bonus. :rolleyes:
the uninsured.
and people claiming they can't get a job annoy me too!
Like I said try Walmart, you'll kill two birds with one stone. Oh, and you get a discount on all your shopping which is a another bonus. :rolleyes:
The Welfare State
rjwould;905328 wrote: Well, some of the people in your childrens example are considered uninsured, the people going to free or reduced fee clinics that is.
Are you disputing my claim that 100% employment is not doable? Or that 4.7-5.0 unemployment is considered a healthy, robust economic situation in the U.S.?
no, my point all along has been there are ways for people to make improvements in their lives instead of sitting around complaining or waiting for the government to help them with everything.
Are you disputing my claim that 100% employment is not doable? Or that 4.7-5.0 unemployment is considered a healthy, robust economic situation in the U.S.?
no, my point all along has been there are ways for people to make improvements in their lives instead of sitting around complaining or waiting for the government to help them with everything.
The Welfare State
rjwould;905352 wrote: Most of the complaining I hear or read is from people who don't like how others live their lives.
I have a carpet cleaning business and do a lot of work for some local property rental agencies, so I go into many apartments where there are many people struggling financially, and I hear less complaining from them than I do from more well off people who like to bitch about everything and everyone. Many higher income people think the less affluent are just trying to take what they have accumulated, and that is just not true, these people are just trying to survive.
When I hear people complaining about other people in the context of money, opportunity and politics, its a dead ringer that they are listening to conservative talk radio or tv. If they weren't, they would be much more understanding of the real world. The conservative agenda seems to be division among average people. True conservatives are not like that, but the complainers are. Incidentally. there are many liberals like that too, but they seem to be more reactive to conservative rhetoric.
RJ, you're giving me headache. You probably hear that a lot......:wah:
you're inventing things to argue with me. I'm done. :yh_silly
I have a carpet cleaning business and do a lot of work for some local property rental agencies, so I go into many apartments where there are many people struggling financially, and I hear less complaining from them than I do from more well off people who like to bitch about everything and everyone. Many higher income people think the less affluent are just trying to take what they have accumulated, and that is just not true, these people are just trying to survive.
When I hear people complaining about other people in the context of money, opportunity and politics, its a dead ringer that they are listening to conservative talk radio or tv. If they weren't, they would be much more understanding of the real world. The conservative agenda seems to be division among average people. True conservatives are not like that, but the complainers are. Incidentally. there are many liberals like that too, but they seem to be more reactive to conservative rhetoric.
RJ, you're giving me headache. You probably hear that a lot......:wah:
you're inventing things to argue with me. I'm done. :yh_silly
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The Welfare State
rjwould;905311 wrote: Walmart just recently began offering benefits to its employees due to pressure.
So? No corp does anything without some kind of self-interest, just like governments.
So? No corp does anything without some kind of self-interest, just like governments.
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rjwould;905468 wrote: Well, some like Ben an Jerry's or Costco sacrifice profits for whats best for their employees. But I can agree with you that the majority only reacts when there is public outrage and it might cost them something. Members of the Walton family are among some of the richest in the world and have been for some time now. Too bad their success itself wasn't enough to cause them to do the right thing a long time ago like some want us to believe success in the marketplace causes.
My poorly attempted point was that Sunny can take advantage of their benefits plan. It doesn't matter why they offer it.
My poorly attempted point was that Sunny can take advantage of their benefits plan. It doesn't matter why they offer it.
The Welfare State
rjwould;905380 wrote: Then don't read it. Personal responsibility, remember?:)
that's not really an option when you quote me.
that's not really an option when you quote me.
The Welfare State
Jester;905762 wrote: *standing ovation*
You tell 'em Sunny!
:o :-6
at least some of us here have common sense! :wah:
You tell 'em Sunny!
:o :-6
at least some of us here have common sense! :wah:
The Welfare State
Jester;905759 wrote: ahahahaha ok the splurting thing is funny... did you have emergency surgery? or did you have surgery a few days later? you made it sound like you had some time to think about it. In the emergency case ya just got to pay until your stable, then negotiate, you'll save money... you cant always be prepared but when you can you ought to, is all I'm saying and I'm telling you by going to talk with them you will save money, heck yes its still gonna cost you, but woudlnt it be nice to cost less?
But if I did cut my finger liek that I'd have probably just clamped it, spit on it and kept working...
Now the heart attack...
At times I pay for my workers medical care, I don't like paying an arm and a leg so I set up an account at the local hospital I have pre-negotiated emergent care for my when i need it... I have a rate at which I pay for ongoing medical bills as needed, I have gone to thier financial counselor filled out the paperwork and set up the accounts and I allow automatic withdrawel of monthly payments on any outstanding balance. (zero currently) In addition to that I am well established with a regular doctor, for myself and my guys, in fact he'll be over on the 4th for a BBQ. I have negotiated a un-insured price with him as well.
It saves me money, I have more control over what my guys get and I make sure they get the help they need and dont try to short change themsleves by pinching pennies for food instead of antibiotics when they need it. I also have paid for thier spouses and childrens medical care out of the same fund when needed. (now you can see why I want to get them all insured)
All I'm saying is that there are ways to reduce the cost of healthcare, and that it pays to plan ahead.
How do you negotiate an emergancy situation before it happens.
Okay doc I'll give you a fiver for a finger ten bucks a stich and forty for a head wound.
Now if my guys come in with a gunshot wound I will pay a $100 but the bulletts must be retrived and saved for ballistic tests in the future.
Now for broken bones.
A fiver for a finger, $20 for an arm and five hundred for a femur (its a big bone).
Any broken noses must be paid by the injured themself. (anyone that lets someone else break their nose deserves to pay. (they shoulda ducked)
:wah::wah:
But if I did cut my finger liek that I'd have probably just clamped it, spit on it and kept working...
Now the heart attack...
At times I pay for my workers medical care, I don't like paying an arm and a leg so I set up an account at the local hospital I have pre-negotiated emergent care for my when i need it... I have a rate at which I pay for ongoing medical bills as needed, I have gone to thier financial counselor filled out the paperwork and set up the accounts and I allow automatic withdrawel of monthly payments on any outstanding balance. (zero currently) In addition to that I am well established with a regular doctor, for myself and my guys, in fact he'll be over on the 4th for a BBQ. I have negotiated a un-insured price with him as well.
It saves me money, I have more control over what my guys get and I make sure they get the help they need and dont try to short change themsleves by pinching pennies for food instead of antibiotics when they need it. I also have paid for thier spouses and childrens medical care out of the same fund when needed. (now you can see why I want to get them all insured)
All I'm saying is that there are ways to reduce the cost of healthcare, and that it pays to plan ahead.
How do you negotiate an emergancy situation before it happens.
Okay doc I'll give you a fiver for a finger ten bucks a stich and forty for a head wound.
Now if my guys come in with a gunshot wound I will pay a $100 but the bulletts must be retrived and saved for ballistic tests in the future.
Now for broken bones.
A fiver for a finger, $20 for an arm and five hundred for a femur (its a big bone).
Any broken noses must be paid by the injured themself. (anyone that lets someone else break their nose deserves to pay. (they shoulda ducked)
:wah::wah:
The Welfare State
rjwould;906100 wrote: I'm still waiting to find out how much a heart attack is?
I hope you don't find out too soon.
I hope you don't find out too soon.
The Welfare State
Jester;906343 wrote: First you use common sense to decrease the lieklyhood of an emergency, secodn you keep yourself fomr panic, third by preparing for an emergency (such as first aide kits, medical knowledge, use of safety routes, access to medical care and establishing a relationship with a local hospital, doctor and billing depertment).
It can get comical, and its best to do it for peace of mind and panic reduction, but it does save you money, time, and worry to have such things covered ahead of time.
Is this not comon sense stuff? Am I missing something here? When you move to a new community is this stuff not on your list of To Do's?
Last week I had a tooth ache. I went to the dentist, they did x-rays and said the tooth was cracked and needed capped. I asked how much, they gave me a printed piece of paper that quoted $24 for x-rays and $847 for the capping. I said you have to be kidding I am not paying nearly $1,000 to have my tooth capped. Doc is this the best you can do? YUP. I said well I think I may just have it pulled. Doc said: You will have to go somewhere else because of the particular tooth that it is He will not pull it (the very back molar). Well crap!! here is my next born cap the stupid thing. I have been in pain ever since. The funny thing is. The dentist office is right next door to my shop and we share a driveway. (that I paid for) because I was the first building. I guess my negotiation skills need improved.
It can get comical, and its best to do it for peace of mind and panic reduction, but it does save you money, time, and worry to have such things covered ahead of time.
Is this not comon sense stuff? Am I missing something here? When you move to a new community is this stuff not on your list of To Do's?
Last week I had a tooth ache. I went to the dentist, they did x-rays and said the tooth was cracked and needed capped. I asked how much, they gave me a printed piece of paper that quoted $24 for x-rays and $847 for the capping. I said you have to be kidding I am not paying nearly $1,000 to have my tooth capped. Doc is this the best you can do? YUP. I said well I think I may just have it pulled. Doc said: You will have to go somewhere else because of the particular tooth that it is He will not pull it (the very back molar). Well crap!! here is my next born cap the stupid thing. I have been in pain ever since. The funny thing is. The dentist office is right next door to my shop and we share a driveway. (that I paid for) because I was the first building. I guess my negotiation skills need improved.
The Welfare State
Forgot to add. I was there less than 45 minutes. Thats about $20 a minute and over $1,000 an hour. Whew.
The Welfare State
Crikey what a collection of horror stories. Try and imagine being ill and not having to worry about the cost.
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gmc;906809 wrote: Crikey what a collection of horror stories. Try and imagine being ill and not having to worry about the cost.
That's what Jester is setting up: taking care of the costs ahead of time so he doesn't have to worry should he become ill. Others do the same thing by paying an insurance company to do the same thing. You pay your government instead. The only difference is the negotiator. [eta] and who actually pays.
That's what Jester is setting up: taking care of the costs ahead of time so he doesn't have to worry should he become ill. Others do the same thing by paying an insurance company to do the same thing. You pay your government instead. The only difference is the negotiator. [eta] and who actually pays.
The Welfare State
Accountable;906899 wrote: That's what Jester is setting up: taking care of the costs ahead of time so he doesn't have to worry should he become ill. Others do the same thing by paying an insurance company to do the same thing. You pay your government instead. The only difference is the negotiator. [eta] and who actually pays.
Actually the payer is the same i.e the individual- either as a taxpayer or as a subscriber to a private company. I would put it to you there is a fundamental difference in approach but it's not one we are likely to agree on and labouring the point is getting nowhere.
You might find this of interest as indicative of the very different attitudes we have in the UK-or at least in part of it.
http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/di ... stions.php
In her address, Ms Sturgeon said: "I think there is a battle of ideas going on about the future direction of healthcare.
"A battle between the values of the market, of internal competition and contestability and the values of public service, of co-operation and collaboration.
"We have set out our stall with absolute clarity. NHS Scotland is, and always will be, a service that is owned by the people of this country."
http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/146 ... e=r_health
BMA chairman Dr Hamish Meldrum praised the Scottish health service in his opening speech at the BMA's annual representative meeting.
He said: "Colleagues, look around you at the sort of health system Scotland has to offer. The BMA wants to see an NHS untarnished by a market economy, true to its beginnings, giving the public a fair, caring, equitable and costeffective health service. Not a service run like a shoddy supermarket war. If it can be done here in Edinburgh, it can be done in England."
Actually the payer is the same i.e the individual- either as a taxpayer or as a subscriber to a private company. I would put it to you there is a fundamental difference in approach but it's not one we are likely to agree on and labouring the point is getting nowhere.
You might find this of interest as indicative of the very different attitudes we have in the UK-or at least in part of it.
http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/di ... stions.php
In her address, Ms Sturgeon said: "I think there is a battle of ideas going on about the future direction of healthcare.
"A battle between the values of the market, of internal competition and contestability and the values of public service, of co-operation and collaboration.
"We have set out our stall with absolute clarity. NHS Scotland is, and always will be, a service that is owned by the people of this country."
http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/146 ... e=r_health
BMA chairman Dr Hamish Meldrum praised the Scottish health service in his opening speech at the BMA's annual representative meeting.
He said: "Colleagues, look around you at the sort of health system Scotland has to offer. The BMA wants to see an NHS untarnished by a market economy, true to its beginnings, giving the public a fair, caring, equitable and costeffective health service. Not a service run like a shoddy supermarket war. If it can be done here in Edinburgh, it can be done in England."
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gmc;917049 wrote: Actually the payer is the same i.e the individual- either as a taxpayer or as a subscriber to a private company.
No it's not; not proportionately. Jester pays his 100% himself. With insurance, the healthy people pay for the less healthy in that they don't utilize the service as much yet still pay. In your system the rich pay the lion's share regardless of how much, or even if, they use it. Jester's way is more fair.
No it's not; not proportionately. Jester pays his 100% himself. With insurance, the healthy people pay for the less healthy in that they don't utilize the service as much yet still pay. In your system the rich pay the lion's share regardless of how much, or even if, they use it. Jester's way is more fair.
The Welfare State
Accountable;917215 wrote: No it's not; not proportionately. Jester pays his 100% himself. With insurance, the healthy people pay for the less healthy in that they don't utilize the service as much yet still pay. In your system the rich pay the lion's share regardless of how much, or even if, they use it. Jester's way is more fair.
Actually no. The rich do not pay NI in proportion to their earnings-it's one of the political hot potatoes as to whether this should be altered. the welfare state is financed through national insurance contributions. There is an upper limit of £770 per week, earnings above for an individual that are not subject to national insurance. Employers pay a percentage on the whole of a person's salary. The self employed are a bit more complicated so I'll leave them out of it. It's the healthy that subsidise the unhealthy not the rich and those on middle incomes that pay the highest proportion of their income in tax.
The rich are always going to pay more in tax than the poor but not necessarily a greater percentage of what they earn-they are also pretty good at dodging it as well. Generally speaking people on middle income pay a higher proportion of income in tax than the rich do. especially with a chancellor so in love with indirect taxation as ours is-but that's about to cost him his job and kill off his party-should have stuck closer to their roots perhaps rather than going for pale blue thatcherism.
Also bear in mind in the UK it is a given that progressive taxation is used to redistribute wealth- your kind of argument tends to get very short shrift and the counter argument is a viewpoint that I suspect you have difficulty accepting as valid.
Actually no. The rich do not pay NI in proportion to their earnings-it's one of the political hot potatoes as to whether this should be altered. the welfare state is financed through national insurance contributions. There is an upper limit of £770 per week, earnings above for an individual that are not subject to national insurance. Employers pay a percentage on the whole of a person's salary. The self employed are a bit more complicated so I'll leave them out of it. It's the healthy that subsidise the unhealthy not the rich and those on middle incomes that pay the highest proportion of their income in tax.
The rich are always going to pay more in tax than the poor but not necessarily a greater percentage of what they earn-they are also pretty good at dodging it as well. Generally speaking people on middle income pay a higher proportion of income in tax than the rich do. especially with a chancellor so in love with indirect taxation as ours is-but that's about to cost him his job and kill off his party-should have stuck closer to their roots perhaps rather than going for pale blue thatcherism.
Also bear in mind in the UK it is a given that progressive taxation is used to redistribute wealth- your kind of argument tends to get very short shrift and the counter argument is a viewpoint that I suspect you have difficulty accepting as valid.