As you can see from the following, this is from the New York Times in December 2007 long before we knew who the final candidates would be. Would you say from reading this that Mr. Obama might be a pure political animal, that he is worried more about offending this group or that than he is standing for a position he believes in. Let’s see “instructions from Democratic leaders†not voting nay on a bill when it contains something you feel is wrong, so you simply stay neutral.
I am certain he is not alone in such actions, sadly it is more the norm than not for all politicians, but when someone is positioned as a champion change, of providing a new beginning, it would be nice if there were a good measure of integrity over following the party line or taking risk by doing what you believe is the right thing.
Whether you favor Obama or not is not the issue, what is the issue is voting for him based on some substantial, credible criteria. Needless to say the same holds true for all the candidates. It is not the rhetoric in a good firebrand speech that counts, it is the willingness and ability to do the right thing, first for the Country as a whole and last for yourself as a politician. Good luck finding that guy or gal.
In the case of Obama, I am still looking for the evidence of what you see is actually what you get.
It’s Not Just ‘Ayes’ and ‘Nays’: Obama’s Votes in Illinois Echo By RAYMOND HERNANDEZ and CHRISTOPHER DREW
Published: December 20, 2007
In 1999, Barack Obama was faced with a difficult vote in the Illinois legislature — to support a bill that would let some juveniles be tried as adults, a position that risked drawing fire from African-Americans, or to oppose it, possibly undermining his image as a tough-on-crime moderate.
In the end, Mr. Obama chose neither to vote for nor against the bill. He voted “present,†effectively sidestepping the issue, an option he invoked nearly 130 times as a state senator.
Sometimes the “present’ votes were in line with instructions from Democratic leaders or because he objected to provisions in bills that he might otherwise support. At other times, Mr. Obama voted present on questions that had overwhelming bipartisan support. In at least a few cases, the issue was politically sensitive.
The record has become an issue on the presidential campaign trail, as Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York, his chief rival for the Democratic nomination, has seized on the present votes he cast on a series of anti-abortion bills to portray Mr. Obama as a “talker†rather than a “doer.â€
Although a present vote is not unusual in Illinois, Mr. Obama’s use of it is being raised as he tries to distinguish himself as a leader who will take on the tough issues, even if it means telling people the “hard truths†they do not want to hear.
Mr. Obama’s aides and some allies dispute the characterization that a present vote is tantamount to ducking an issue. They said Mr. Obama cast 4,000 votes in the Illinois Senate and used the present vote to protest bills that he believed had been drafted unconstitutionally or as part of a broader legislative strategy. :rolleyes:
Sen Obama is What You See, What You Get?
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Sorry, and Senator McCain isn't also pandering to a political minority grouping, i.e. the white religious right (whose wishes seem to be dominating the whole political agenda of the Republican Party) by choosing Mrs "I Don't Believe in Science, pass me my rifle I need to eat" Palin. Country First? Give me a break, somewhat hypocritical don't ya think? 
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Le Rochefoucauld.
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My dad 1986.
Sen Obama is What You See, What You Get?
It's funny that I hear some people attack him as having the most "liberal" voting record in the senate.
Others attack him for not having a voting record at all.
Which is it?
Others attack him for not having a voting record at all.
Which is it?
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Galbally;975150 wrote: Sorry, and Senator McCain isn't also pandering to a political minority grouping, i.e. the white religious right (whose wishes seem to be dominating the whole political agenda of the Republican Party) by choosing Mrs "I Don't Believe in Science, pass me my rifle I need to eat" Palin. Country First? Give me a break, somewhat hypocritical don't ya think?
You must have missed this line in my post "Needless to say the same holds true for all the candidates. ne in my post, "
But the point isn't the other guy who has his faults as well, but the facts about one person in this example.
You must have missed this line in my post "Needless to say the same holds true for all the candidates. ne in my post, "
But the point isn't the other guy who has his faults as well, but the facts about one person in this example.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
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yaaarrrgg;975153 wrote: It's funny that I hear some people attack him as having the most "liberal" voting record in the senate.
Others attack him for not having a voting record at all.
Which is it?
No attack at all, merely reflecting some facts that I think are relevant. He has a voting record, but shouldn't it bother us that his records includes the inclination to avoid decision making when it may put him in the position of offending one group or the other?
What this says to me is that he is first and foremost a politician (like many. many others of both parties) and that means that little will change if it offends say unions, or women or seniors or environmentalists.
Of course, McCain may also be so inclined in many respects, but that too is the point.
No change, just politics and pandering to whomever yells the loudest in this or the next election.
Others attack him for not having a voting record at all.
Which is it?
No attack at all, merely reflecting some facts that I think are relevant. He has a voting record, but shouldn't it bother us that his records includes the inclination to avoid decision making when it may put him in the position of offending one group or the other?
What this says to me is that he is first and foremost a politician (like many. many others of both parties) and that means that little will change if it offends say unions, or women or seniors or environmentalists.
Of course, McCain may also be so inclined in many respects, but that too is the point.
No change, just politics and pandering to whomever yells the loudest in this or the next election.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
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QUINNSCOMMENTARY;975386 wrote: No attack at all, merely reflecting some facts that I think are relevant. He has a voting record, but shouldn't it bother us that his records includes the inclination to avoid decision making when it may put him in the position of offending one group or the other?
What this says to me is that he is first and foremost a politician (like many. many others of both parties) and that means that little will change if it offends say unions, or women or seniors or environmentalists.
Of course, McCain may also be so inclined in many respects, but that too is the point.
No change, just politics and pandering to whomever yells the loudest in this or the next election.
A "present" is essentially a no vote with an explanation:
http://www.stateline.org/live/details/s ... tId=274863
What this says to me is that he is first and foremost a politician (like many. many others of both parties) and that means that little will change if it offends say unions, or women or seniors or environmentalists.
Of course, McCain may also be so inclined in many respects, but that too is the point.
No change, just politics and pandering to whomever yells the loudest in this or the next election.
A "present" is essentially a no vote with an explanation:
http://www.stateline.org/live/details/s ... tId=274863
Sen Obama is What You See, What You Get?
QUINNSCOMMENTARY;975366 wrote: You must have missed this line in my post "Needless to say the same holds true for all the candidates. ne in my post, "
But the point isn't the other guy who has his faults as well, but the facts about one person in this example.
Okay, I thought you were just bashing the black guy. But the point about all politicians tending to be somewhat mendacious, self-aggrandizing, contradictory, and dissembling is hardly news is it? I mean you could probably read exactly the same sentiment from a Roman commentator on the candidates in Consular elections in the Roman Republic, in fact I am sure Cicero had something to say about such things.
Its not anything specific to these two candidates, who are both in my opinion interesting men in their own right, and either might potentially make a good U.S. president (though different) but then no one knows yet, which is why you are having an election. McCain is likeable because of his record and would certainly be quite different to most recent Republican Presidents, while Obama certainly has extraordinary oratory, charisma, and the air of something new on his side. In terms of their faults, well its the reality of human affairs that humble, self-depreciating un-ego-driven people tend not to end up in elections for extremely powerful political positions open to democratic votes.
So what really is your point? That Barak Obama and John McCain are both fairly typical politicians in many respects? Somewhat trite, no?
But the point isn't the other guy who has his faults as well, but the facts about one person in this example.
Okay, I thought you were just bashing the black guy. But the point about all politicians tending to be somewhat mendacious, self-aggrandizing, contradictory, and dissembling is hardly news is it? I mean you could probably read exactly the same sentiment from a Roman commentator on the candidates in Consular elections in the Roman Republic, in fact I am sure Cicero had something to say about such things.
Its not anything specific to these two candidates, who are both in my opinion interesting men in their own right, and either might potentially make a good U.S. president (though different) but then no one knows yet, which is why you are having an election. McCain is likeable because of his record and would certainly be quite different to most recent Republican Presidents, while Obama certainly has extraordinary oratory, charisma, and the air of something new on his side. In terms of their faults, well its the reality of human affairs that humble, self-depreciating un-ego-driven people tend not to end up in elections for extremely powerful political positions open to democratic votes.
So what really is your point? That Barak Obama and John McCain are both fairly typical politicians in many respects? Somewhat trite, no?
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
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So what really is your point? That Barak Obama and John McCain are both fairly typical politicians in many respects? Somewhat trite, no?
That's the essence of it, but it is a bit more in that Obama is going out of his way (or his handlers are) to position himself as so very different, so much of a change agent, etc. and in reality he is no different than any other professional politician and perhaps a bit worse because has the oratory skills to make people think otherwise. As I pointed out in another thread his choice for VP is most interesting in that he chose someone who is as about as much a Washington insider as possible, another career politician who is positioned 180 degrees from the reality of his past.
That's the essence of it, but it is a bit more in that Obama is going out of his way (or his handlers are) to position himself as so very different, so much of a change agent, etc. and in reality he is no different than any other professional politician and perhaps a bit worse because has the oratory skills to make people think otherwise. As I pointed out in another thread his choice for VP is most interesting in that he chose someone who is as about as much a Washington insider as possible, another career politician who is positioned 180 degrees from the reality of his past.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
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Sen Obama is What You See, What You Get?
[quote=QUINNSCOMMENTARY;975119]
In the case of Obama, I am still looking for the evidence of what you see is actually what you get.
At least he was present to vote.
In 1999, Barack Obama was faced with a difficult vote in the Illinois legislature — to support a bill that would let some juveniles be tried as adults, a position that risked drawing fire from African-Americans, or to oppose it, possibly undermining his image as a tough-on-crime moderate.
In the end, Mr. Obama chose neither to vote for nor against the bill. He voted “present,” effectively sidestepping the issue, an option he invoked nearly 130 times as a state senator.
Sometimes the “present’ votes were in line with instructions from Democratic leaders or because he objected to provisions in bills that he might otherwise support. At other times, Mr. Obama voted present on questions that had overwhelming bipartisan support. In at least a few cases, the issue was politically sensitive.
The record has become an issue on the presidential campaign trail, as Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York, his chief rival for the Democratic nomination, has seized on the present votes he cast on a series of anti-abortion bills to portray Mr. Obama as a “talker” rather than a “doer.”
We both know rarely is there ever a "clean bill"
In order to understand the votes in their entirety can you provide other bills that were attached to these, what was added or given up in order to make it an acceptable trade for the Senator ?
Mr. Obama’s aides and some allies dispute the characterization that a present vote is tantamount to ducking an issue. They said Mr. Obama cast 4,000 votes in the Illinois Senate and used the present vote to protest bills that he believed had been drafted unconstitutionally or as part of a broader legislative strategy. :rolleyes:
Why bring this up ?
McCain is well known for his opposition to negotiating bills.
Your extremely biased in the information you provide in order to make a point.
Obama is using the same tactics McCain uses.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
McCain has spent considerable time defending the president on Iraq and catering to the Republican base, but has only managed to show up for four of the last 14 Iraq votes.
Sen. John McCain is the only presidential candidate in Congress to have missed a major vote on the Iraq war this year.
McCAIN: I have a long record that supports the use of alternate energy. … But my citizens in Arizona know that when I’m running for the President of the United States I have to be out campaigning.
Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) currently holds the title of most absent U.S. senator, missing over 60 percent of votes this session.
McCain Accepted $291,658 from Big Oil in 2007. On average, senators voting for big oil tax breaks and against incentives for renewable energy and efficiency in 2007 received $195,973 in campaign donations from the oil industry during this decade. McCain missed all three critical clean energy votes in 2007. His absences aided big oil because opponents of oil industry tax breaks needed a super majority of 60 votes to pass the provision to close the loopholes, regardless of the number of Senators who voted. In other words, an absence was the same as voting against shifting money from big oil tax breaks to incentives for clean energy.
McCain has missed 255 of 450 votes cast in the Senate since January including every vote this year.
One of those missed votes was when Senate Republicans blocked a bid by Democrats to add $44 billion to help disabled veterans.
Obama has missed about 40 percent, or 170 votes
In the case of Obama, I am still looking for the evidence of what you see is actually what you get.
At least he was present to vote.
In 1999, Barack Obama was faced with a difficult vote in the Illinois legislature — to support a bill that would let some juveniles be tried as adults, a position that risked drawing fire from African-Americans, or to oppose it, possibly undermining his image as a tough-on-crime moderate.
In the end, Mr. Obama chose neither to vote for nor against the bill. He voted “present,” effectively sidestepping the issue, an option he invoked nearly 130 times as a state senator.
Sometimes the “present’ votes were in line with instructions from Democratic leaders or because he objected to provisions in bills that he might otherwise support. At other times, Mr. Obama voted present on questions that had overwhelming bipartisan support. In at least a few cases, the issue was politically sensitive.
The record has become an issue on the presidential campaign trail, as Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York, his chief rival for the Democratic nomination, has seized on the present votes he cast on a series of anti-abortion bills to portray Mr. Obama as a “talker” rather than a “doer.”
We both know rarely is there ever a "clean bill"
In order to understand the votes in their entirety can you provide other bills that were attached to these, what was added or given up in order to make it an acceptable trade for the Senator ?
Mr. Obama’s aides and some allies dispute the characterization that a present vote is tantamount to ducking an issue. They said Mr. Obama cast 4,000 votes in the Illinois Senate and used the present vote to protest bills that he believed had been drafted unconstitutionally or as part of a broader legislative strategy. :rolleyes:
Why bring this up ?
McCain is well known for his opposition to negotiating bills.
Your extremely biased in the information you provide in order to make a point.
Obama is using the same tactics McCain uses.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
McCain has spent considerable time defending the president on Iraq and catering to the Republican base, but has only managed to show up for four of the last 14 Iraq votes.
Sen. John McCain is the only presidential candidate in Congress to have missed a major vote on the Iraq war this year.
McCAIN: I have a long record that supports the use of alternate energy. … But my citizens in Arizona know that when I’m running for the President of the United States I have to be out campaigning.
Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) currently holds the title of most absent U.S. senator, missing over 60 percent of votes this session.
McCain Accepted $291,658 from Big Oil in 2007. On average, senators voting for big oil tax breaks and against incentives for renewable energy and efficiency in 2007 received $195,973 in campaign donations from the oil industry during this decade. McCain missed all three critical clean energy votes in 2007. His absences aided big oil because opponents of oil industry tax breaks needed a super majority of 60 votes to pass the provision to close the loopholes, regardless of the number of Senators who voted. In other words, an absence was the same as voting against shifting money from big oil tax breaks to incentives for clean energy.
McCain has missed 255 of 450 votes cast in the Senate since January including every vote this year.
One of those missed votes was when Senate Republicans blocked a bid by Democrats to add $44 billion to help disabled veterans.
Obama has missed about 40 percent, or 170 votes
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Sen Obama is What You See, What You Get?
QUINNSCOMMENTARY;975788 wrote: That's the essence of it, but it is a bit more in that Obama is going out of his way (or his handlers are) to position himself as so very different, so much of a change agent, etc. and in reality he is no different than any other professional politician and perhaps a bit worse because has the oratory skills to make people think otherwise. As I pointed out in another thread his choice for VP is most interesting in that he chose someone who is as about as much a Washington insider as possible, another career politician who is positioned 180 degrees from the reality of his past.
I'm a bit confused Quinn ... are you basing this on your misunderstanding of what a 'present' vote means?
I'm a bit confused Quinn ... are you basing this on your misunderstanding of what a 'present' vote means?
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yaaarrrgg;975862 wrote: I'm a bit confused Quinn ... are you basing this on your misunderstanding of what a 'present' vote means?
Tell me what a "present" vote means.
Tell me what a "present" vote means.
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"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
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QUINNSCOMMENTARY;976282 wrote: Tell me what a "present" vote means.
It means 'no'.
There are four types of votes in the Illinois state legislature.
1. Yes
2. No with explanation (called "present")
3. No without explanation (called "no")
4. No show ... no vote at all.
In the primary debates Hillary tried to use the confusing terminology to imply it was an equivocation. But if he actually wanted to avoid the issue, he wouldn't have voted at all. There was a reason she did better with the less educated demographics.
The link in post #6 explains this in more detail. It's also addressed on FactCheck.
It means 'no'.
There are four types of votes in the Illinois state legislature.
1. Yes
2. No with explanation (called "present")
3. No without explanation (called "no")
4. No show ... no vote at all.
In the primary debates Hillary tried to use the confusing terminology to imply it was an equivocation. But if he actually wanted to avoid the issue, he wouldn't have voted at all. There was a reason she did better with the less educated demographics.
The link in post #6 explains this in more detail. It's also addressed on FactCheck.
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Lol, did anyone watch Obama in the interview on Sunday by George Stephanopoulos....??
:wah: He was in the campaine is falling apart "red alert" mode, trying to re-invent himself.....
Lol, Obama even said he wanted to join the military at one point, but there wasn't a war at the time, so he didn't............
What a man's man, if there's no death and destruction I can be a part of, I ain't goin'....!!!
That was just so funny..... :wah:
It's going to be so much fun watching this typical say anything to anyone to get elected politician go down in flames.... :guitarist
:wah: He was in the campaine is falling apart "red alert" mode, trying to re-invent himself.....
Lol, Obama even said he wanted to join the military at one point, but there wasn't a war at the time, so he didn't............
What a man's man, if there's no death and destruction I can be a part of, I ain't goin'....!!!
That was just so funny..... :wah:
It's going to be so much fun watching this typical say anything to anyone to get elected politician go down in flames.... :guitarist
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yaaarrrgg;976443 wrote: It means 'no'.
There are four types of votes in the Illinois state legislature.
1. Yes
2. No with explanation (called "present")
3. No without explanation (called "no")
4. No show ... no vote at all.
In the primary debates Hillary tried to use the confusing terminology to imply it was an equivocation. But if he actually wanted to avoid the issue, he wouldn't have voted at all. There was a reason she did better with the less educated demographics.
The link in post #6 explains this in more detail. It's also addressed on FactCheck.
If that is true then why didn't the Obama camp simply say that rather than give all the double talk explanation that was quoted in the Times article? I really find the logic of that explanation hard to accept.
There are four types of votes in the Illinois state legislature.
1. Yes
2. No with explanation (called "present")
3. No without explanation (called "no")
4. No show ... no vote at all.
In the primary debates Hillary tried to use the confusing terminology to imply it was an equivocation. But if he actually wanted to avoid the issue, he wouldn't have voted at all. There was a reason she did better with the less educated demographics.
The link in post #6 explains this in more detail. It's also addressed on FactCheck.
If that is true then why didn't the Obama camp simply say that rather than give all the double talk explanation that was quoted in the Times article? I really find the logic of that explanation hard to accept.
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"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
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yaaarrrgg;976443 wrote: It means 'no'.
There are four types of votes in the Illinois state legislature.
1. Yes
2. No with explanation (called "present")
3. No without explanation (called "no")
4. No show ... no vote at all.
In the primary debates Hillary tried to use the confusing terminology to imply it was an equivocation. But if he actually wanted to avoid the issue, he wouldn't have voted at all. There was a reason she did better with the less educated demographics.
The link in post #6 explains this in more detail. It's also addressed on FactCheck.
On closer examination I believe your facts are not accurate.
Here is an explanation from the Illinois Legislature Glossary and it says nothing close to what you have. In addition here is another link to an article on the topic and it is very clear that "Present" does not mean NO.
Vote, Record
A roll call vote in which each legislator electronically votes yea, nay, or present (which is entered on the Journal). Final passage of a bill is by record vote.
Obama's Votes in the Illinois Legislature
There are four types of votes in the Illinois state legislature.
1. Yes
2. No with explanation (called "present")
3. No without explanation (called "no")
4. No show ... no vote at all.
In the primary debates Hillary tried to use the confusing terminology to imply it was an equivocation. But if he actually wanted to avoid the issue, he wouldn't have voted at all. There was a reason she did better with the less educated demographics.
The link in post #6 explains this in more detail. It's also addressed on FactCheck.
On closer examination I believe your facts are not accurate.
Here is an explanation from the Illinois Legislature Glossary and it says nothing close to what you have. In addition here is another link to an article on the topic and it is very clear that "Present" does not mean NO.
Vote, Record
A roll call vote in which each legislator electronically votes yea, nay, or present (which is entered on the Journal). Final passage of a bill is by record vote.
Obama's Votes in the Illinois Legislature
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
Quinnscommentary
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Sen Obama is What You See, What You Get?
QUINNSCOMMENTARY;977990 wrote: On closer examination I believe your facts are not accurate.
Here is an explanation from the Illinois Legislature Glossary and it says nothing close to what you have. In addition here is another link to an article on the topic and it is very clear that "Present" does not mean NO.
Vote, Record
A roll call vote in which each legislator electronically votes yea, nay, or present (which is entered on the Journal). Final passage of a bill is by record vote.
Obama's Votes in the Illinois Legislature
It looks like all the votes are recorded in the journal, e.g.:
http://www.ilga.gov/senate/journals/sfi ... 1042_r.pdf
As far as I understand, there is not much difference legally as to 'present' and 'no' in the final tally. Each person has a vote. These map out to vote values.
yes -> 1
no -> 0
present -> 0
Then these values are summed up. If the votes fail to excede some number X, then the measure will not pass. So for all intents and purposes, it counts the same way a 'no' does.
My claims are based on the article I linked to. I don't think Hillary and Edwards (in the NPR article) actually understand this quirk about Illinois. In fact, I was arguing that they were confused (or spinning the facts to get the job).
If I claim that a person P is confused, you can't quote P to prove P is not confused. It's a circular argument.
Here is an explanation from the Illinois Legislature Glossary and it says nothing close to what you have. In addition here is another link to an article on the topic and it is very clear that "Present" does not mean NO.
Vote, Record
A roll call vote in which each legislator electronically votes yea, nay, or present (which is entered on the Journal). Final passage of a bill is by record vote.
Obama's Votes in the Illinois Legislature
It looks like all the votes are recorded in the journal, e.g.:
http://www.ilga.gov/senate/journals/sfi ... 1042_r.pdf
As far as I understand, there is not much difference legally as to 'present' and 'no' in the final tally. Each person has a vote. These map out to vote values.
yes -> 1
no -> 0
present -> 0
Then these values are summed up. If the votes fail to excede some number X, then the measure will not pass. So for all intents and purposes, it counts the same way a 'no' does.
My claims are based on the article I linked to. I don't think Hillary and Edwards (in the NPR article) actually understand this quirk about Illinois. In fact, I was arguing that they were confused (or spinning the facts to get the job).
If I claim that a person P is confused, you can't quote P to prove P is not confused. It's a circular argument.
Sen Obama is What You See, What You Get?
QUINNSCOMMENTARY;977986 wrote: If that is true then why didn't the Obama camp simply say that rather than give all the double talk explanation that was quoted in the Times article? I really find the logic of that explanation hard to accept.
Maybe the Times article was muddled. No guarantee they understood it either ... it's inherently confusing. Here's another source:
Quote: Bills need "yes" votes to pass, so a vote of "present" counts the same as a "no." Thus, Obama's "present" votes on bills seeking to restrict abortion counted the same as if he had voted "no."
From: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/339/
Maybe the Times article was muddled. No guarantee they understood it either ... it's inherently confusing. Here's another source:
Quote: Bills need "yes" votes to pass, so a vote of "present" counts the same as a "no." Thus, Obama's "present" votes on bills seeking to restrict abortion counted the same as if he had voted "no."
From: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/339/
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Snidely Whiplash
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Sen Obama is What You See, What You Get?
If there was a poll attached to this topic, I'd like to vote Present too...! :wah:
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QUINNSCOMMENTARY
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Sen Obama is What You See, What You Get?
yaaarrrgg;978634 wrote: Maybe the Times article was muddled. No guarantee they understood it either ... it's inherently confusing. Here's another source:
Quote: Bills need "yes" votes to pass, so a vote of "present" counts the same as a "no." Thus, Obama's "present" votes on bills seeking to restrict abortion counted the same as if he had voted "no."
From: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/339/
A bit of convoluted thinking wouldn't you say? If a bill needs a yes vote to pass and anything other than that is assumed to be "no" then a person who doesn't even bother to show up would be assumed to vote no as well.
If present is NO and NO is no, then a persons credibility would be enhanced by simply voting no if that is there postion.
Quote: Bills need "yes" votes to pass, so a vote of "present" counts the same as a "no." Thus, Obama's "present" votes on bills seeking to restrict abortion counted the same as if he had voted "no."
From: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/339/
A bit of convoluted thinking wouldn't you say? If a bill needs a yes vote to pass and anything other than that is assumed to be "no" then a person who doesn't even bother to show up would be assumed to vote no as well.
If present is NO and NO is no, then a persons credibility would be enhanced by simply voting no if that is there postion.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
Quinnscommentary
Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty.
Quinnscommentary Blog
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
Quinnscommentary
Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty.
Quinnscommentary Blog
Sen Obama is What You See, What You Get?
QUINNSCOMMENTARY;981906 wrote: A bit of convoluted thinking wouldn't you say? If a bill needs a yes vote to pass and anyhting other than that is assumed to be "no" then a person who doesn't even bother to show up would be assumed to vote no as well.
If present is NO and NO is no, then a persons credibility would be enhanced by simply voting no is that is there postion.
Present votes seem to be attacked by both sides of an issue. You are assuming they politically benefit someone. They don't.
If present is NO and NO is no, then a persons credibility would be enhanced by simply voting no is that is there postion.
Present votes seem to be attacked by both sides of an issue. You are assuming they politically benefit someone. They don't.
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QUINNSCOMMENTARY
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Sen Obama is What You See, What You Get?
yaaarrrgg;981957 wrote: Present votes seem to be attacked by both sides of an issue. You are assuming they politically benefit someone. They don't.
Sure they do or there would be no reason to use them. Voting present subverts ones position on an issue to what most people would perceive as neither yes or no.
Sure they do or there would be no reason to use them. Voting present subverts ones position on an issue to what most people would perceive as neither yes or no.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
Quinnscommentary
Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty.
Quinnscommentary Blog
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton
Quinnscommentary
Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty.
Quinnscommentary Blog
Sen Obama is What You See, What You Get?
Hoss;982520 wrote: Both fit him well.
They can't both be true ...
They can't both be true ...