An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Discuss Presidential or Prime Minister elections for all countries here.
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38670
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by spot »

Everyone seems to be mired in close-up detail. Perhaps an overview will help US voters on ForumGarden to decide which way to vote in November.

What are the important issues? Given the events of the decade I'd want to include foreign relations, the economy and law enforcement. Some people have single-issue demands in which case they'll have to look at each slate's promises on the single issue and decide on that basis. Maybe it's promises on abortion or gay army recruits. They're not on my list of vital issues.

Let's start with foreign relations.

Iran. I'm looking for a slate which is pro-Iran. The Iranians were a secular republic under a nationalist leader called Mohammed Mosaddeq in 1953 when the CIA orchestrated the overthrow of his government and installed a tyrannical torturing US puppet called Mohammed Reza Pahlavi. The utter detestation of his rule led to the Iranians' enthusiastic mass embracing of a reactionary fundamentalist cleric-led administration in 1979. They wanted out from under the Imperialist Great Satan, they wanted their own foreign policy back, they wanted their own property back, they were sick of being strip-mined by rapists and all power to them for rebelling in their own interests. They stay reactionary, fundamentalist and cleric-led because they've been under sanctions and proscription by the US ever since. It's about time it stopped. The US has to apologize for the real actual harm done to Iran by its actions in the past, offer the unconditional hand of friendship and set up something cultural like a mass student exchange scheme so that both sides can move on.

So, which team is going into the Presidential elections offering that? Neither, sadly. John McCain's team agrees with me that the crisis with Iran is "the most serious crisis we have faced - outside of the entire war on terror - since the end of the Cold War." but those weasel words are actually anti-Iranian. Senator Obama regards Iran's government as "a threat to all of us," stating that the US "should take no option, including military action, off the table. Sustained and aggressive diplomacy combined with tough sanctions should be our primary means to prevent Iran from building nuclear weapons. which is equally anti-Iranian. Interestingly, Ralph Nader believes the US must stop “saber rattling” with Iran and take up Iran's proposal in 2003 to negotiate all outstanding issues between the US and Iran. I'll get round to Ralph Nader at the end of the post.

Israel/Palestine. I'm looking for a slate that's prepared to stop the flow of US money and resources to Israel until Israel abandons apartheid. There's the loan arrangements, the military subsidies, the annual grant money, the collection agencies. A single replacement rule ought to do it - for every dollar unavoidably subsidizing Israel a corresponding dollar gets sent to the Palestinians, and none of it takes the form of military hardware. Propping up a regime that practices apartheid and has discriminatory laws is an affront to civilization.

So, which team is going into the Presidential elections offering that? Neither, sadly. John McCain's team says that "no American leader should be expected to sell a false peace to our ally, consider Israel's right to self-defense less legitimate than ours, or insist that Israel negotiate a political settlement while terrorism remains the Palestinians' preferred bargaining tool." Senator Obama's team is solidly pro-Israeli. Ralph Nader supports the Israeli peace movement and views resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as central to national security.

Iraq. I'm looking for a team which will immediately and unconditionally hand over all those hundred-year concrete reinforced aircraft carriers to the Iraqi government and remove every single US national from Iraqi soil within a week of taking office. I'm looking for a team which will set up an independent enquiry with all the investigatory, subpoena and sworn testimony powers to find out who illegally profited from the criminal invasion and to have them all jailed for life. I want as big a bloodbath among the criminals in the previous administration as they imposed on the world while they were in office.

So, which team is going into the Presidential elections offering that? Neither, sadly. John McCain's team supported the invasion of Iraq and has stated that he would keep troops in Iraq for as long as needed, dependent on agreement from the Iraqi government. "It's not a matter of how long we're in Iraq, it's if we succeed or not." while Senator Obama's team offers a responsible, phased withdrawal which is code-speak for keeping those concrete block permanent bases I mentioned. Ralph Nader opposes the US occupation of Iraq on the grounds that “it’s the occupation that is breeding the resistance.” which is a bit more like it.

Pakistan - in particular, not killing Pakistanis inside Pakistan especially if they're under the age of ten and not carrying a weapon when they're killed. Which team is going into the Presidential elections offering that? Neither, sadly. John McCain's team appeared to rule out the option of US forces entering Pakistan, saying that it was not an appropriate time to "threaten" Pakistan which rather implies that when the time's right he's no qualms about letting rip with the Marines and the drone missiles. Senator Obama's team declared in a foreign policy speech that the United States must be willing to strike al Qaeda targets inside Pakistan, with or without the consent of the Pakistani government. and Ralph Nader has said that military action against Pakistan is off the table.

Guantanamo? John McCain's team said of waterboarding that "They [other presidential candidates] should know what it is. It is not a complicated procedure. It is torture." and then voted to allow it to continue, which is fairly plain. Senator Obama's team has advocated closing the Guantanamo Bay detention camp, but has not supported two specific bills that would have done so. but at least he opposes the use of torture. Ralph Nader's quite solidly against it: "Constitutional crimes against due process, probable cause, habeas corpus, together with torture and indefinite imprisonment... will worsen and erode American jurisprudence with serious consequences for both the nation's security and its liberties."

Foreign aid. I'm looking for a team which will immediately and unconditionally stop all foreign aid to every foreign destination whether it's to a government, a government organisation or a non-government agency. Every last penny whether it's from government funds or from charitable donations, the whole lot has to stop immediately and never start again. Foreign aid is an imperialist weapon of domination. John McCain's team "plans to expand foreign aid", Senator Obama's team would double foreign aid to $50 Billion dollars by 2012. Neither position falls close to what I want.

That ought to be enough on foreign relations. Neither team is on side.

Oh... Ralph Nader. No, that's a protest vote, that's not a route to change. By the time I've finished I have to come down into one of the two camps that count in US politics since the US is a two-party state.

The italic quotes, by the way, are all from a useful comparison page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison ... ign_policy
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38670
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by spot »

I do hate these stunned silences of disbelief and outrage, seriously. What did I get wrong? Tell me why I'm wrong on any of those policy issues and I'll happily either change my view or explain my reason for thinking you're mistaken.

The economy, that's the next area to look at.

Immigration. I'm looking for a slate which will put sufficient resources into immigration control that within a year of taking office there'll be nobody inside the US borders who hasn't legal permission to be there, and which promises to keep that condition permanently thereafter. That means nobody entering the US without legal permission to enter, nobody out-staying any visa time limit without being immediately ejected or having the time limit extended. It can go under a "not even one illegal resident anywhere within the US borders within a year of taking office" promise. I don't care how they achieve it. They can expel people, legalize people, hand out citizenship or visas, any solution they care to name but they have to get results. Just letting the current state of affairs drift on is what'll actually happen if there's no promise like that. I insist on this Immigration condition as non-negotiable.

So, which team is going into the Presidential elections offering that? Neither, sadly. John McCain's team has promoted the legislation and eventually the granting of citizenship to the estimated 12–20 million illegal aliens in the United States and the creation of an additional guest worker program with an option for permanent immigration.. Fine as far as it goes but there's no schedule and I don't believe for a minute that he intends doing it either in a first term or a second. It needs a firm promise of a timetable. Senator Obama's team supports a guest worker program and giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants which doesn't even start to go near a solution. Ralph Nader does not support open-borders, which he says will create a "cheap-wage policy" for businesses. He supports giving illegal workers, who have their taxes withheld, the same labor standards and benefits as American workers. No agreement with my demands there either.

Are we discouraged? Maybe, but we're not surprised. Let's try another economic issue and see if things improve.

Health care. I'm looking for a slate which offers to introduce basic free health care for everyone physically located within the borders of the US within the first year of taking office. I'm prepared to slacken that by excluding tourists. Basic, in this context, excludes cosmetic work. If someone's ill or hurt they get treated. If someone's dying they get palliative care. If someone's unhealthy they get sufficient help to become healthy. If someone prefers to pay then obviously they can pay, they might well get better treatment if they pay. If they prefer to use a free health care system then it should be there for them.

So, which team is going into the Presidential elections offering that? Both of them! Finally we get a win! Well, no, that was me trying to enliven the post with a joke, the real answer is neither. John McCain's team does not believe in coercion and the use of state power to mandate care, coverage or costs and favors tax credits of up to $5,000 for families that purchase health insurance. Senator Obama's team offers guaranteed eligibility for affordable health care for all Americans which, if I read it right, involves payment for both treatment and medication. Ralph Nader supports a universal single-payer health care system and full Medicare for everyone, I'm beginning to wish the US wasn't stuck with a two-party constitution and that Mr Nader could get in. Sad that he can't, he's not far off what I'm looking for in a lot of my categories.

Social Security. I'm looking for a slate which avoids a poverty trap while ensuring that everyone inside the US borders can afford a roof over their head, food on their table and the dignity of not appearing to be paupers in the eyes of the world. It's quite easy to implement by manipulating the existing tax system so that it effectively hands every adult enough money to achieve that and then taxes all income at a progressive rate. I can think of lots of reasons why that would improve society and only a few against it, the balance is strongly in its favour. A promise to reorganize the tax system that way during the first term would do it for me.

So, which team is going into the Presidential elections offering that? Neither, sadly. John McCain's team has indicated that Social Security's "benefit promises...cannot be kept," indicating reductions in program benefits at some future date, as he is against raising payroll taxes which is a step in the other direction. Senator Obama's team might potentially if everything should be on the table means what it says but I suspect it doesn't. Ralph Nader views Social Security as "government as it should work - a coming together of society to ensure that we, as a community, take care of each other as we age or suffer from disabilities. That definitely maps onto my demand.

Education. This falls under the economy in my opinion, just as much as the earlier heads do. I'm looking for a slate which gives an education voucher capable of completely paying for the education and living costs of every child up to a fixed age and thereafter for as long as the student passes exams to the next stage with no cut-off age. That goes for college costs, university degree costs, masters, doctorates, however far the student wants to take it and is capable, because the benefit to society of all that extended education is worth the expense to the country as a whole. I'd tighten up what qualifies as a pass mark on an exam, mind. Just lowering standards to increase the proportion of students passing is a self-defeating approach to education.

So, which team is going into the Presidential elections offering that? Neither, sadly. John McCain's team says yes up to the cut-off age but no further and he doesn't include living costs. Senator Obama's team says no though he allows public school education up to the cut-off age so effectively he's the same as John McCain's team as far as what I'm looking for goes.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38670
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by spot »

The nature of empire, Ian, is that those colonized are subjects but not citizens. Demanding suffrage is rebellion. Colonial administrators only need demand your extradition and you'll just disappear. You're on a hiding to nothing with that one.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
yaaarrrgg
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:29 pm

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by yaaarrrgg »

I like Ralph Nadar, although with the way the U.S. voting system is set up, voting for him will result in one of two effects:

(a) not voting at all

(b) helping McCain

Which is probably the exact opposite of the effect you want to achieve. The problem is that Obama is about as left wing as you can get in America and still be electable.
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38670
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by spot »

yaaarrrgg;989705 wrote: I like Ralph Nadar, although with the way the U.S. voting system is set up, voting for him will result in one of two effects:

(a) not voting at all

(b) helping McCain

Which is probably the exact opposite of the effect you want to achieve.You mistake my destination entirely. It's essential, absolutely essential, that the next administration's Republican so that the Party can't shake off responsibility for what happens post-Bush. An Obama/Democrat White House lets the Republicans off the hook and they can't be allowed that excuse. America as a whole needs to learn the consequence of the Bush White House acting as it has. There must be no shrugging off cause and effect by saying it could have ended up good except there was a Democrat victory in 2008.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
Accountable
Posts: 24818
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by Accountable »

Thank you for your presumtuous opinions. I'm sure that some who view the UK/EU as ideal will find it useful.
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38670
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by spot »

Accountable;989814 wrote: Thank you for your presumtuous opinions. I'm sure that some who view the UK/EU as ideal will find it useful.


Presumptuous perhaps, but I hope you recognise that they're also reasoned. Tell me why I'm wrong on any of those policy issues and I'll happily either change my view or explain my reason for thinking you're mistaken.

If you didn't like the first two you're really going to hate the one on law enforcement.

I confess I didn't think I'd take you with me all the way if that helps.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
Accountable
Posts: 24818
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by Accountable »

spot;989820 wrote: Presumptuous perhaps, but I hope you recognise that they're also reasoned. Tell me why I'm wrong on any of those policy issues and I'll happily either change my view or explain my reason for thinking you're mistaken.



If you didn't like the first two you're really going to hate the one on law enforcement.



I confess I didn't think I'd take you with me all the way if that helps.
If we both agree you're presumptuous, why on earth would I continue the conversation? buh bye.
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38670
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by spot »

Accountable;989839 wrote: If we both agree you're presumptuous, why on earth would I continue the conversation? buh bye.


Because I've summarised what we might both agree are the essential aspects of the election? It gives you a convenient space to criticize the Republican stance or the Democrat stance or both in the areas I've conveniently headlined? Or, who knows, you might even agree with one or two of my sentences. Why should presumption on my part muzzle you?
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
Chookie
Posts: 1826
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:55 am

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by Chookie »

Another point to ponder is the Republican choice of "running mates".

McCain is old, ill and frail, yet he has also outlived his father. Palin doesn't appear to have any experience of diplomacy - but then, there is only one way to get experience.

What I find very scary about Palin is the fact McCain is unlikely to see out his full term (if he is elected). That would leave the world at the mercy of a religious nutter with a mission from God.

In the UK we have already experienced something of the sort, although Thatcher was well past the menopause and is not known to be overly religious she was notably a vindictive bitch.



I guess that's me back on the watch list (again).
An ye harm none, do what ye will....
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38670
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by spot »

I note the Republicans have had some sort of TV advertising slot on Fox this week, though without their big guns (the Bolton/Palin For 2012 they'll settle for).

Everything I wrote in the first two posts of the thread is, sadly, still applicable, word for word.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by gmc »

Chookie;989867 wrote: Another point to ponder is the Republican choice of "running mates".

McCain is old, ill and frail, yet he has also outlived his father. Palin doesn't appear to have any experience of diplomacy - but then, there is only one way to get experience.

What I find very scary about Palin is the fact McCain is unlikely to see out his full term (if he is elected). That would leave the world at the mercy of a religious nutter with a mission from God.

In the UK we have already experienced something of the sort, although Thatcher was well past the menopause and is not known to be overly religious she was notably a vindictive bitch.



I guess that's me back on the watch list (again).


Surely you mean Tony Blair not Margaret Thatcher? I can't see her listening to god or anyone else for that matter. As it happens I think his religious academies will turn out to be the most destructive part of his legacy.
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38670
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by spot »

spot;1364886 wrote: I note the Republicans have had some sort of TV advertising slot on Fox this week, though without their big guns (the Bolton/Palin For 2012 they'll settle for).


After much prayer and serious consideration, I have decided that Sarah Palin will not be seeking the 2012 GOP nomination for President of the United States. The world comes first and obviously I put great consideration into whether it could cope before making this decision.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
K.Snyder
Posts: 10253
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:05 pm

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by K.Snyder »

spot;1371792 wrote: After much prayer and serious consideration, I have decided that Sarah Palin will not be seeking the 2012 GOP nomination for President of the United States. The world comes first and obviously I put great consideration into whether it could cope before making this decision.Bolton/Palin would have never been elected within 20 points of the electorate. Perhaps you'll be praying for Obama's failure to be reelected?
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38670
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by spot »

Perhaps you're less in touch with the True Spirit of America than other commentators, Kevin.

Besides which, if I'm advocating a Bolton/Palin/2012 candidacy and it would fail by at least 20 points, wouldn't that make me an Obama enthusiast?

I have no interest in who wins so long as the resulting administrational logjam between Senate, Representatives and White House triggers a financial default of monumental proportions, pushing US government spending into a tailspin of such immensity that no future steps can bring it back to free flight. What else is capable of ending US interference in foreign affairs?
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
K.Snyder
Posts: 10253
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:05 pm

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by K.Snyder »

spot;1371835 wrote: Besides which, if I'm advocating a Bolton/Palin/2012 candidacy and it would fail by at least 20 points, wouldn't that make me an Obama enthusiast?If and only if you were aware of such an inevitable failure, coincidentally highlighting how a two party system will always be a one party system. The difference lying in a nation separated by two majorities claiming to be the only true citizens, ending with "Perhaps you're less in touch with the True Spirit of America than other commentators, Kevin." being an immense compliment in the event Bolton and Palin should win, and I thank you for it.

spot;1371835 wrote: I have no interest in who wins so long as the resulting administrational logjam between Senate, Representatives and White House triggers a financial default of monumental proportions, pushing US government spending into a tailspin of such immensity that no future steps can bring it back to free flight. What else is capable of ending US interference in foreign affairs?What's left is to vote for Obama! Then we might be an electron width closer to a more civilized country compared, obviously, to a complete annihilation caused by a positron only to start all over again.

If you agree wouldn't that make you an Obama enthusiast, at least at the moment?
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38670
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by spot »

K.Snyder wrote: What's left is to vote for Obama! Then we might be an electron width closer to a more civilized countryYou would have a more civilized President. The minimum steps required to achieve a more civilized country - a fish of a very different aspect - would be the complete abolition of TV broadcasting and outlawing non-governmental use of the Stars and Stripes.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
K.Snyder
Posts: 10253
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:05 pm

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by K.Snyder »

spot;1371839 wrote: You would have a more civilized President. The minimum steps required to achieve a more civilized country - a fish of a very different aspect - would be the complete abolition of TV broadcasting and outlawing non-governmental use of the Stars and Stripes.:wah: Ridding America of country music and alcohol would be far more effective.
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38670
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by spot »

K.Snyder;1371917 wrote: :wah: Ridding America of country music and alcohol would be far more effective.


Ah. The Sharia solution.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
K.Snyder
Posts: 10253
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:05 pm

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by K.Snyder »

spot;1371932 wrote: Ah. The Sharia solution.I'm searching to see if Sharia Law bans country music...
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38670
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by spot »

K.Snyder;1371934 wrote: I'm searching to see if Sharia Law bans country music...


First section, first paragraph, first sentence I'd have thought. It would if I'd drafted it.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
K.Snyder
Posts: 10253
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:05 pm

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by K.Snyder »

spot;1371946 wrote: First section, first paragraph, first sentence I'd have thought. It would if I'd drafted it.:yh_bigsmi
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12350
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by LarsMac »

K.Snyder;1371917 wrote: :wah: Ridding America of country music and alcohol would be far more effective.


I think ever congressional meeting should have kegs of beer on station, and the meeting cannot be called to order until every member has quaffed at least on pint.

And Hank Williams (Sr. not Junior), Flat and Scruggs, and the Carter family should be piped in.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
K.Snyder
Posts: 10253
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:05 pm

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by K.Snyder »

LarsMac;1371965 wrote: I think ever congressional meeting should have kegs of beer on station, and the meeting cannot be called to order until every member has quaffed at least on pint.

And Hank Williams (Sr. not Junior), Flat and Scruggs, and the Carter family should be piped in.No, no, no...That's Merica...We're talking about America, The United States of America...

Merica and America are two different countries :yh_bigsmi
User avatar
Accountable
Posts: 24818
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by Accountable »

Spot wrote: I have no interest in who wins so long as the resulting administrational logjam between Senate, Representatives and White House triggers a financial default of monumental proportions, pushing US government spending into a tailspin of such immensity that no future steps can bring it back to free flight. What else is capable of ending US interference in foreign affairs?Nah, no hate there ... none at all.
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12350
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by LarsMac »

Seriously,

Romney is beginning to take some serious lead from all the other contenders.

I think that was the GOP strategy to start with. Bring in the lunatic fringe, and make Mitt seem reasonably sane.

A lot of centrists are saying, "Hmm, I could live with Mitt as Pres."
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
K.Snyder
Posts: 10253
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:05 pm

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by K.Snyder »

I'm starting to think the republicans are going to play the dem's card they'd used in '08. Bring in some hot shot late that will attempt to woo the crowed.

Well, because Romney? Rick Perry was shot down before the wheels could retract. Herman Cain? This guy's kind of funny I have to admit but...Jesus his last name is cain! I mean with a name like that he ought to scare the sense right in to some of these republican extremists and if they do that they'll not be republican anymore so scratch that...

Next!
koan
Posts: 16817
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:00 pm

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by koan »

It took me a bit to realize the OP was from 2008 :( Yes it's all still a relevant list of concerns. Not so sure about the foreign aid part though as it's like church tithes. If a country doesn't give it's considered Godless and the US doesn't want to be seen that way whether it's Christian God or Muslim or the Great Spirit of the Sneeze.

I had high hopes for Obama but that's because I believed he'd crack down on Israel and it turns out they have far more voting power than Obama is willing to risk. I heard someone say once that he was a moral man but his position on Palestine has convinced me otherwise.

So... best hope for the US elections is that Occupy Wall Street will somehow rid the country of conventional government options of the present. My own city's occupy movement isn't strong enough to last past the end of my Saturday work shift or I'd be joining them with my own sign.
ellieR
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:34 am

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by ellieR »

It seems the lead in the GOP race changes every week. I am thinking that Romney might be the best choice due to the other extreme views. However, it makes for some entertainment.
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38670
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by spot »

There are still places available for the 2011 Florida Victory Dinner at Lake Buena Vista tonight if anyone wants to meet and greet Sarah Palin. I can't get there, but 850-222-7920 is the booking line.

Attached files
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
K.Snyder
Posts: 10253
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:05 pm

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by K.Snyder »

spot;1374301 wrote: There are still places available for the 2011 Florida Victory Dinner at Lake Buena Vista tonight if anyone wants to meet and greet Sarah Palin. I can't get there, but 850-222-7920 is the booking line.I would consider it if I felt my expenses would be superseded by an ultimate gain but I doubt her autograph will be worth anything in 5 years...
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38670
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by spot »

So. We're all ready, I take it? Trousers tucked in, biscuits under lock and key, calculator oiled?

If I may I'd like to bring this thread to order with a quote - a longish quote admittedly - from Michael Moore this week. He's conversational, he's relevant, he makes irrefutable points based firmly in fact rather than prejudice, my sort of guy. Here we go...We all fear there's probably a good 40% of the country who simply do not want a black man in the Oval Office. In fact, in 2008, Obama lost the white vote. He lost every white age group except young people (18-29). And yet he still won by 10 million votes! The optimistic secret the Obama people know is that only about 70% of the voters in November will be white. So if he can win just 35-40% of them, and then get a massive majority of people of color, he can win re-election. There is no question in my mind that Obama is more popular than Romney and if everyone could vote from their couch like they do for American Idol, Obama would win hands down. As I have said before, we live in a liberal country. The majority of Americans (who do not call themselves "liberal") now support most of the liberal agenda – they're for gay marriage, they're pro-choice, they're anti-war, they believe there's global warming, and they hate Wall Street for what it has done to them and their neighbors. The Republicans know this: that we, the majority, will have sex when we want and with whom we want, will read and watch whatever we want when we want, will use marijuana if we want and if we don't want to then we certainly don't want our friends who do to be throw into prison. We are sick and tired of being poisoned, by chemicals or propaganda, we think the Palestinians have been given a raw deal and we want our friggin' jobs back! The Christian Right (and their Wall Street funders) know this all too well – America has turned, and there's no going back to not loving someone because of the color of their skin or expecting women to cede control of their bodies to a bunch of Neanderthals. So, what's a Rightie to do now that we've turned the joint into Sodom and G? They have to suppress the vote! They have to stop as many liberals from voting as possible. So they've passed many voter suppression laws to make it hard for the poor, the minorities, the disabled and students to vote. They honestly believe they can pull this off – and they just may.



Do we recall that odd Harris woman in Florida with her droopy chads and the extent to which demographics were employed to eliminate tens of thousands of potential Democrat votes? It seems to have spread across the nation in the last decade.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38670
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by spot »

Oh - presumptuous opinions. I stand by everything I wrote in those first two posts and if anyone would like to criticize or discuss them I'd welcome their input. It all seems equally relevant four years on, little's changed on the playing field.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by Ahso! »

What Moore doesn't mention is that even if Romney is elected to replace Obama, he'll also govern from the moderate right as Obama has because that's where the majority of the citizenry is. Also, I wouldn't be so-o sure of the black vote for Obama, he's left his brothers in lock up and hasn't done anything to change that from continue happening in the future. Obama is wrong-headed on the drug war.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38670
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by spot »

Fortunately I don't have to live there.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by Ahso! »

BTW. I do agree with your education ideas in your second post.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38670
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by spot »

Ahso/Michelle 2016, obviously. Or would she want the driving seat?
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
AnneBoleyn
Posts: 6632
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by AnneBoleyn »

I would not be surprised at all if Obama wins the popular but loses the electoral. In fact, I'm expecting it. Hope I'm wrong. Don't need this again. If Romney (universe forbid) does become the next president, I want him to win it out right.
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38670
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by spot »

Do headless women have the vote in America, out of interest?
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
AnneBoleyn
Posts: 6632
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by AnneBoleyn »

I'm guessing you object to what I said? Unlike my namesake, I have so far kept the head, but if Romney does become pres................are headless women allowed to emigrate?
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38670
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by spot »

AnneBoleyn;1403705 wrote: I'm guessing you object to what I said?Not at all...



Unlike my namesake, I have so far kept the head, but if Romney does become pres................are headless women allowed to emigrate?


Possibly to Romania, so long as their coffins are filled with the soil of their native haunts. We get a lot of that on the East Coast here.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38670
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by spot »

The main issue to put before the candidates has to focus on security.

Homeland surveillance needs an order of magnitude more spending on it before it stands a chance of becoming effective. If you don't know who everyone is and you don't know where they all are then you're incapable of preventing future outrages with any degree of certainty, and if you can't be certain you might as well not bother at all.

Fending off external threat involves two things that aren't happening adequately. Three things:

Where's the continental missile shield? The US is so all-fired anxious to wrap twenty-year-old missile defence technology around Israel that nobody seems bothered by the constant failure of the ICBM intercept program. If it's not working then dozens of US cities can disintegrate.

Where's the clockwork robots that are meant to be taking the place of IED-vulnerable wetware to lock down territory wherever force is deployed?

Where's the fast-disappearing capacity to maintain fighter superiority over nations currently designing and building effective stealth fighters?

All three of those areas have to be fully funded if the US is to remain influential in the Western Pacific region, and all three are barely happening any more. If the US doesn't pick up the pace it might as well drop out of the race. They're presidential choices and they have to be the only priority in town.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
AnneBoleyn
Posts: 6632
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by AnneBoleyn »

Since I live in NYC, we here will be the first to go. I may not get the chance, so I'll just say goodbye right now.

:yh_bye

Remember me.
koan
Posts: 16817
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:00 pm

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by koan »

From what I've seen as an outsider... The SuperPac decision has slayed the politicians who dreamed it up. They are slinging so much dirt that there will never be another clean politician again. You are left with this slime or that slime for president.

The final nominations for candidates seemed like this: Republican: Hard hitting economic and religious protection (for Christians) Democrats: Went all Martin Luther King in dramatic speeches.

Will people vote for charisma or will they vote for the safety of big business? They can't win as a nation either way because neither one is going to put the needs of the average American first. We (First world countries) are all slaves to our corporate owners. Our only choice is whether we vote for people who acknowledge it a bit more or people who at least give us a bit of good rhetoric to make us feel noticed.

I'm interested in American elections because we have a huge unprotected border and our country tends to exhibit echo effects of whatever happens there.
User avatar
AnneBoleyn
Posts: 6632
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by AnneBoleyn »

Oh, Koan, you should worry about that unprotected border! Too many Americans would like to annex Canada, Mexico, make it all one state under the protection of.............guess who!

I've always loved Canada. My husband was Canadian, from Victoria---in the "olde" days his family owned several islands. I understand Bill Gates now owns their former homestead. My mother-in-law was from the original Roberts clan, among the first settlers.

Nothing wrong with sounding like MLK.
koan
Posts: 16817
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:00 pm

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by koan »

Nothing wrong with sounding like him at all... just a problem when it comes time to act like him.
User avatar
AnneBoleyn
Posts: 6632
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by AnneBoleyn »

koan;1403787 wrote: Nothing wrong with sounding like him at all... just a problem when it comes time to act like him.


You got that right!
koan
Posts: 16817
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:00 pm

An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by koan »

RE the borders. I know quite a few people who bought War of 1812 commemorative stamps to mail to the States. lol

I'm not really worried.

Return to “Presidential Elections Campaigns”