An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

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spot
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An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by spot »

spot;1371792 wrote: After much prayer and serious consideration, I have decided that Sarah Palin will not be seeking the 2012 GOP nomination for President of the United States. The world comes first and obviously I put great consideration into whether it could cope before making this decision.


I am delighted to note Ms Palin's hat is now back inside the ring for the next Presidential campaign. She says she intends to run as a Republican candidate. Where's that Bolton chap, she needs a running mate.Former Alaska governor Sarah Palin told The Washington Post in an interview Friday that she is “seriously interested” in running for the White House in 2016.

“You can absolutely say that I am seriously interested,” Palin said, when asked to clarify her thinking about a possible presidential bid.

Palin, the GOP’s 2008 vice-presidential nominee, said she stood by comments she made Thursday in Las Vegas to ABC News, where she first expressed enthusiasm about potentially competing for the Republican presidential nomination.

“I am. As I said yesterday, I’m really interested in the opportunity to serve at some point,” Palin said Friday, as former Pennsylvania senator Rick Santorum, a potential 2016 rival, looked on.

Palin says she’s ‘seriously interested’ in 2016 campaign - The Washington Post







eta: I also note "After much prayer and serious consideration, I have decided" gets 87,400 hits on Google Search. I find that a terrifying fact.
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An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by AnneBoleyn »

She is lying. She (Palin) just can't exist without the spotlight on her. She knows no Republicans will back her. Wait & see. Personally, I hope she would, she's a freak show.
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An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by LarsMac »

She did, certainly, add an entertainment factor to an otherwise dreary campaign.

I would find it a very interesting race were she to face Hilary in the finals.
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An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by AnneBoleyn »

LarsMac;1472632 wrote: She did, certainly, add an entertainment factor to an otherwise dreary campaign.

I would find it a very interesting race were she to face Hilary in the finals.


A fantasy of yours? It can't happen. Think Tina Fey & Amy Poehler. Sarah is all washed up. She quit her job & in 2012 she wasn't even on the tea party or conservative lists.
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An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by LarsMac »

AnneBoleyn;1472637 wrote: A fantasy of yours? It can't happen. Think Tina Fey & Amy Poehler. Sarah is all washed up. She quit her job & in 2012 she wasn't even on the tea party or conservative lists.


I only considered it for the humor value. Our political process has become rather tedious and predictable, lately.

We have split off into two camps who insist on presenting the most absurd candidates possible.

Then on election day, half the electorate stays home rather than vote for either of them.

If it can't at least be entertaining, then what's the point of it?

If we could get the electorate fighting over the likes of Sanders and Warren, we might make a race of it. Unfortunately those type always seem to have some obscure skeleton that pops up to dehorse them before the first hurdle, and we end up with the something like the 2004 election.
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An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by High Threshold »

Sorry to be so cut and dry pessimistic but I may as well say what is on my mind. There have been more White House and Pentagon scandals than you can shake a stick at. Republican? Democratic? What's the difference? Illegal wars, fabricated proof … and cover-ups as standard procedures to them both. There's a sea of conspiracy theories proven to be true. Bush cheating in Florida to become president and then getting re-elected! Obama, who on the surface seemed to have all of the right credentials and experience to “do the right thing”, getting side-lined and accomplishing next to nothing. The U.S. has been voted as the biggest threat to world peace (time and time again) by the people of the world ..... and I have to agree with that.

So, can someone help me to find the word I am looking for that describes a revolution without shedding blood? What was it called in the late 60's – early 70's when the White House was shaking in its boots for fear of the American population storming the gates and sacking the place? Yes! That's the word I'm looking for. “Democracy”! The U.S. ain't got it but that's what they need. Unfortunately no one is going to hand it to them.
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An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by LarsMac »

Wish I could argue with you, there, HT. But yes, in the 60s we still had that notion that "We the People" ran the country, but in the 70s, it seemed, the silent Majority spoke.

They said "Ho hum, we don't want to be bothered."
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Post by High Threshold »

LarsMac;1472732 wrote: Wish I could argue with you, there, HT. But yes, in the 60s we still had that notion that "We the People" ran the country, but in the 70s, it seemed, the silent Majority spoke.

They said "Ho hum, we don't want to be bothered."


People who criticise the U.S. often use the Vietnam War or Watergate as the corner stone of debate and then go right on up to the invasion of Irak …. and more. I agree with them but for me there was another event that happened in the U.S. that really turned the corner and raced out of reach for American democracy. No one else seems to have picked up on it but for me THAT is the proverbial RED FLAG. It is when Kennedy said, “Ask not what your country can do for you! Ask what you can do for your country!”
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An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by LarsMac »

High Threshold;1472734 wrote: People who criticise the U.S. often use the Vietnam War or Watergate as the corner stone of debate and then go right on up to the invasion of Irak …. and more. I agree with them but for me there was another event that happened in the U.S. that really turned the corner and raced out of reach for American democracy. No one else seems to have picked up on it but for me THAT is the proverbial RED FLAG. It is when Kennedy said, “Ask not what your country can do for you! Ask what you can do for your country!”


I am curious to know why you think that.
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Post by Ahso! »

I'm keeping my eye on Scott Walker for now; he's a type of outsider who is a very slick politician. Walker could upset the entire gop bunch. Mitt Romney and his funny walk could make it entertaining again.

On the democratic side? If it isn't Bernie Sanders or Elisabeth Warren - then who cares, though any one of them is always better than the gop alternative.
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Post by High Threshold »

LarsMac;1472736 wrote: I am curious to know why you think that.


Democracy, to me, means that the population pay politicians to work for them … not the other way round. Government should represent us. That's what we pay them for.
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An outsider's view of the Presidential Election

Post by LarsMac »

High Threshold;1472742 wrote: Democracy, to me, means that the population pay politicians to work for them … not the other way round. Government should represent us. That's what we pay them for.


Thank you for that. I agree. to a point.

The government is not the country. And Kennedy did not say "ask what you could do for your government" but "ask what you can do for your country"

But, I don't think Mr K intended for us to ask what we could do for the politicians.

I believe he included the politicians in the part about asking "what you can do for your country?" since the idea is that the politicians are basically just regular citizens, the same as the rest of us. And if every American, politicians included, strives to do what is good for the country as a whole, then the country, and all of us citizens will reap the reward.

Blind obedience was not, and never will be the answer to that question.
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Post by High Threshold »

LarsMac;1472745 wrote: Thank you for that. I agree. to a point.

The government is not the country. And Kennedy did not say "ask what you could do for your government" but "ask what you can do for your country"

But, I don't think Mr K intended for us to ask what we could do for the politicians.

I believe he included the politicians in the part about asking "what you can do for your country?" since the idea is that the politicians are basically just regular citizens, the same as the rest of us. And if every American, politicians included, strives to do what is good for the country as a whole, then the country, and all of us citizens will reap the reward.

Blind obedience was not, and never will be the answer to that question.


Well, perhaps the centre is not defining regular citizens and go along with your interpretation (fair and just as it is) but speak of the reality. When the war in Vietnam was at its hottest and EVERYONE was going …. conscription and all of that ….. what do you think the number of politician's sons went off to the infantry? Very few citizens would feel Kennedy was talking to “every American, politicians included”. I can't imagine many feeling that politicians were “ just regular citizens” and I really don't think they were. In any case, Kennedy was speaking from the top and we can debate how far down the ladder ”regular citizens” were employed.
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Post by High Threshold »

spot;989453 wrote: Everyone seems to be mired in close-up detail. Perhaps an overview will help US voters on ForumGarden to decide which way to vote in November.


Yes. it is too easy to be confused by the close-up details alright. One thing for sure is that there might be certain limits to what state the candidates are from ..... I mean, if they are atheists:

Atheists Banned From Public Office in 7 States
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Post by LarsMac »

High Threshold;1472749 wrote: Well, perhaps the centre is not defining regular citizens and go along with your interpretation (fair and just as it is) but speak of the reality. When the war in Vietnam was at its hottest and EVERYONE was going …. conscription and all of that ….. what do you think the number of politician's sons went off to the infantry? Very few citizens would feel Kennedy was talking to “every American, politicians included”. I can't imagine many feeling that politicians were “ just regular citizens” and I really don't think they were. In any case, Kennedy was speaking from the top and we can debate how far down the ladder ”regular citizens” were employed.


No, few of the politicians' sons found themselves getting called up to go "diddy-bopping" through the jungles of Indochine. and yes there are, and always have been those who would consider themselves the Elite. But I don't quite see how Kennedy's call to action was really the turning point for any more than getting Boy Scouts to rally and dream up ways to clean up their communities, and getting bored college kids to go off to the Peace Corps.

I remember observing a much bigger reaction to his call to put a man on the moon by the end of the decade.
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Post by High Threshold »

LarsMac;1472832 wrote: No, few of the politicians' sons found themselves getting called up to go "diddy-bopping" through the jungles of Indochine. and yes there are, and always have been those who would consider themselves the Elite. But I don't quite see how Kennedy's call to action was really the turning point for any more than getting Boy Scouts to rally and dream up ways to clean up their communities, and getting bored college kids to go off to the Peace Corps.

I remember observing a much bigger reaction to his call to put a man on the moon by the end of the decade.


It's very simple. Telling the population it ought to give (over and above paying government to do its job) and not ask for something in return. I consider that fundamentally non-democratic. In fact is sounds fascist.

Oh. And don't get me started on the Peace Corps. It was a front for intelligence gathering and did little for the people. I've met them in Nepal and Burkina Faso and we had some interesting discussions.
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High Threshold;1472834 wrote: It's very simple. Telling the population it ought to give (over and above paying government to do its job) and not ask for something in return. I consider that fundamentally non-democratic. In fact is sounds fascist.


To follow that sort of tenet would challenge why anyone should wish to volunteer for Community Projects, etc. Patriotism (as opposed to Xenophobia) is something to be proud and should never be considered as nothing more than a business transaction. Simply being a good neighbour is, in its own small way, doing something for your country. It doesn't have to be any massive Political deal.
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Post by High Threshold »

FourPart;1472865 wrote: To follow that sort of tenet would challenge why anyone should wish to volunteer for Community Projects, etc. Patriotism (as opposed to Xenophobia) is something to be proud and should never be considered as nothing more than a business transaction. Simply being a good neighbour is, in its own small way, doing something for your country. It doesn't have to be any massive Political deal.


Sorry, but patriotism is the scourge of modern man.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

High Threshold;1472869 wrote: Sorry, but patriotism is the scourge of modern man.


"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel", Samuel Johnson, April 7, 1775.

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel: Samuel Johnson
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Post by FourPart »

AnneBoleyn;1472871 wrote: "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel", Samuel Johnson, April 7, 1775.

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel: Samuel Johnson
That is the difference between Patriotism & Xenophobia.
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Post by Ahso! »

AnneBoleyn;1472871 wrote: "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel", Samuel Johnson, April 7, 1775.

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel: Samuel JohnsonI know conservatism is not new but I was unaware FOX News has been around that long.
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Post by Ahso! »

FourPart;1472865 wrote: To follow that sort of tenet would challenge why anyone should wish to volunteer for Community Projects, etc. Patriotism (as opposed to Xenophobia) is something to be proud and should never be considered as nothing more than a business transaction. Simply being a good neighbour is, in its own small way, doing something for your country. It doesn't have to be any massive Political deal.Patriotism like a business transaction? Are you confusing patriotism with patronization?

ETA:Though I agree that much of today's patriotism is patronizing.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by LarsMac »

Patriotism does not have to be bad.

Patriotism is not blind obedience to bad leadership.

Back in the 60s we were bombarded with the "America. Love it or leave it."

Many guys I knew opted for Canada, or Sweden, rather than allow themselves to be drafted into military service.

I thought about it, but decided that I did love my country, and wanted to stick around, in hopes of fixing some of the problems we had.

I see that as "Patriotism"

To love your country, warts and all, and be a part of making life better, is not, in my opinion, a mistake.

Looking around, lately, it would seem that we failed miserably, but I still love my country, warts and all.

And yes, I consider myself a patriot, even though the word seems to have taken on a new meaning in many eyes.

I don't care. I am what I am. (Or "Yam what I yam" as Popeye put it.)
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Post by High Threshold »

LarsMac;1472996 wrote: Patriotism does not have to be bad.

Patriotism is not blind obedience to bad leadership.

Back in the 60s we were bombarded with the "America. Love it or leave it."

Many guys I knew opted for Canada, or Sweden, rather than allow themselves to be drafted into military service.

I thought about it, but decided that I did love my country, and wanted to stick around, in hopes of fixing some of the problems we had.

I see that as "Patriotism"

To love your country, warts and all, and be a part of making life better, is not, in my opinion, a mistake.

Looking around, lately, it would seem that we failed miserably, but I still love my country, warts and all.

And yes, I consider myself a patriot, even though the word seems to have taken on a new meaning in many eyes.

I don't care. I am what I am. (Or "Yam what I yam" as Popeye put it.)


If you equate being part of the illegal war in Vietnam (or any other) ...... with loving your country then you won't understand what I have to say on the subject of patriotism .... and you certainly won't understand that going along with it is the evidence that patriotism (contrary to what you said in the first line) really is bad.
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Post by spot »

LarsMac;1472996 wrote: And yes, I consider myself a patriot, even though the word seems to have taken on a new meaning in many eyes.


I think patriotism is defined these days by the West Point Toast - "My country, right or wrong". If it were defined any other way I might find it tolerable.
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Post by FourPart »

A love for one's country is akin to a Mother's love for her children. Despite all their faults she will still love them.

That is Patriotism.
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Post by LarsMac »

FourPart;1473015 wrote: A love for one's country is akin to a Mother's love for her children. Despite all their faults she will still love them.

That is Patriotism.


I think it to be the other way around. more a child's love of Mom.

My mom would say some dumb stuff, now and again. I would just say, "OK, Mom." or argue with her til I turned blue.

But somebody else say something about her being dumb, and I was on them, in a heartbeat.
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Post by FourPart »

Whichever way you look at it, it's the same thing (although it's not quite the same thing with a child & the parent, as my relationship with my Father can testify).
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Post by spot »

LarsMac;1473029 wrote: I think it to be the other way around. more a child's love of Mom.

My mom would say some dumb stuff, now and again. I would just say, "OK, Mom." or argue with her til I turned blue.

But somebody else say something about her being dumb, and I was on them, in a heartbeat.


Extending our metaphor here back toward patriotism, if your mom takes to defecating regularly on my drive can I rely on your support in persuading her to push an incontinence trolley around with her? Or are you going to stand on her right to defecate wheresoever she will, she being so much bigger than the rest of us.
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spot;1473047 wrote: Extending our metaphor here back toward patriotism, if your mom takes to defecating regularly on my drive can I rely on your support in persuading her to push an incontinence trolley around with her? Or are you going to stand on her right to defecate wheresoever she will, she being so much bigger than the rest of us.


Sorry, but Mom gets to crap wherever she pleases. We will try to cut down on carbohydrates in her diet, and hope that helps. In the meantime, we will be happy to sell you the latest pooperscoopers, at a 5% discount.
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Post by High Threshold »

spot;1473004 wrote: I think patriotism is defined these days by the West Point Toast - "My country, right or wrong". If it were defined any other way I might find it tolerable.


That's it in a nutshell. A learned man recently said, "Sad how easily the masses are convinced to run off to war." The very odd thing is that he doesn't seem to understand why that is. Patriotism is the answer.
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Post by High Threshold »

FourPart;1473015 wrote: A love for one's country is akin to a Mother's love for her children. Despite all their faults she will still love them.

That is Patriotism.


I do not agree. Going back to what Spot said about “the Toast”, love of one's country is akin to a girl whose father is a drunk, locks her in her room and sexually molests her on a daily basis. Despite all of his faults she still loves him. It's the Stockholm syndrome.

That is Patriotism.
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Post by FourPart »

I am proud of my Country. I may not be proud of all its Politics all of the time, but I remain proud of my Country. I consider myself a Patriot.

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