Republican victories

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Accountable
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Republican victories

Post by Accountable »

Ahso!;1343972 wrote: You're absolutely right, Accountable, but you then need a system other than a free market one unless everyone becomes investors. That is what congress has been trying to guide the public into for the past 30 years. [Why only the past 30? What happened before 1980 that changed things so drastically?] They have been trying to balance it out with borrowing, thats why the deficit is so high.[Borrowing to pay for what?] The problem is, the majority of the public is not there yet, and there have been so many illegal activities with the stock market and bonds that that is all playing out and getting fixed as they arise. Thats why the bailout and protection at all costs to the stock market. [What's why? Lack of investing, illegal activities, or fixing those activities?] Think about it, we are in the deepest recession since the 1930's, fighting two wars simultaneously, unemployment is hovering near 10% and the stock market is seemingly completely unaffected by it all. That should tell you something. [It tells me the government is completely incompetent to fix the current crisis, and we should stop expecting them to. It tells me the grand experiment of using the military as an employment agent is a dumb as it sounds, and allowing too much anonymous corporate involvement in the workings of government results in too much government involvement in the manipulating the free market and not enough in keeping free market transactions clean and honest.]

The jobs are gone or leaving and they aren't coming back, everyone agrees on that point. There are two options left; 1) we all invest and continue the free market that way, or 2) we adopt more of a socialist way of life. Thats it, my friend, there is nothing else on the table. Thats why the political argument is so ferocious. [If those are the only options on the table then you're sitting at the wrong table. As I've said before, we've abandoned liberty in pursuit of a strong economy. our priorities are all wrong.]

And you? You're talking like its still 1776.:wah: (you know I love you)It's a damn shame that individual liberty and self-determination a seen as a punchline.
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Accountable
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Republican victories

Post by Accountable »

Bryn Mawr;1344006 wrote: [QUOTE=Accountable;1343969]No. I see only benefit. Any danger is short term. Saving and living within one's means empowers people ... which I'm sure is considered dangerous in Washington or London. Living paycheck to paycheck is far more dangerous, even stupid.The sentiment is exactly right but it's a long road from here to there. Whilst the country is living paycheck to paycheck, importing more than it sells and in debt to all its neighbours then the income from consumer spending is all it has to live on. Get back to being a manufacturing economy and pay off the creditors and the living will be all the sweeter but, short term or not, the way both our economies work at the moment, it would be enough to push us into the sort of bankruptcy that Russia went through in the 90s. Our countries were stupid to get into this position, it is not stupid to recognise the position we are in and plot a course out of it that will not bring us down.[/QUOTE]So the answer to getting out of a situation that overspending & overindulging got us into is to continue to overspend and overindulge?? That's the very definition of stupidity.

What is wrong with going through the sort of bankruptcy Russia endured? Personally, I think it would do us a world of good. We are a different society than the Soviet Union. The results of such a collapse in the US or UK wouldn't mirror theirs.
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Republican victories

Post by Bryn Mawr »

Accountable;1344042 wrote: So the answer to getting out of a situation that overspending & overindulging got us into is to continue to overspend and overindulge?? That's the very definition of stupidity.


I do not think I've ever suggested that. I think that I've suggested that we recognise the danger of the situation and take planned steps to remove that danger.

Accountable;1344042 wrote: What is wrong with going through the sort of bankruptcy Russia endured? Personally, I think it would do us a world of good. We are a different society than the Soviet Union. The results of such a collapse in the US or UK wouldn't mirror theirs.


Personally, I'd like to see us step back from the brink. I do not have your faith that we would fair any better than the Russians did - a bankrupt country is a bankrupt country and even during the great depression we were never that.
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Republican victories

Post by Accountable »

The current US plan is to spend, apparently until we've spent everybody's money worldwide.

A bankrupt country is indeed a bankrupt country, no disputing that. But what does that really mean? We lose cable? Corporations will have to fare for themselves? What will happen if the US truly goes bankrupt? What happened to the Russians?
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Republican victories

Post by Ahso! »

Manufacturing is not going to return to the U.S. for several reasons, its just not gonna happen.

Sometimes I think I like the idea of national bankruptcy too if it would relieve me of all my debt and finally break the back of this educational system of ours, but that isn't going to happen either. America will not go bankrupt. What is going to to happen however, is we will continue to throw people out on the streets; reduce any remaining help from government (because people just don't want to care about anyone other than themselves these days); raise the retirement age to an even higher number (its not that old people don't want to work, its nobody will hire them for any job that can sustain a living); and now they're talking about us losing our home mortgage interest tax exemption in order to offset the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations. Y'all willing to go there?

Thats what this republican wave is going to bring. So brace yourself, everyone. For those who think they're going to be shielded because they have a few bucks, but not millions, think again, they're going to lose their money to private security needs (public security is paid by taxes, and the police are reducing its workforce too).

Plutocracy, anyone?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

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Bryn Mawr
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Republican victories

Post by Bryn Mawr »

Accountable;1344085 wrote: The current US plan is to spend, apparently until we've spent everybody's money worldwide.

A bankrupt country is indeed a bankrupt country, no disputing that. But what does that really mean? We lose cable? Corporations will have to fare for themselves? What will happen if the US truly goes bankrupt? What happened to the Russians?


It means no more credit on the open markets, withdrawal of inward investment by the multi-nationals, no imports of goods - or the raw materials your industry needs to manufacture goods.

Whilst America has more natural resources than most you are not self-sufficient by a long way. Also remember that "raw materials" will also include assembled sub-components and think how much production has been outsourced to China and South East Asia. You can re-tool but that will take time and, more importantly, money.

That means internal bankruptcies and spiralling job losses (the more people out of work, the less being spent in the internal economy so the more companies cut back and the more people out of work). The more companies going out of work the less tax income for the government so you also get public sector job cuts and a cutback in public sector contracts to the big corporations who then make losses and further job cuts.

This would go far beyond the problems seen during the Great Depression - remember, you weren't bankrupt then and external trade was still possible

With Russia the loss of government funds meant that they were no longer able to maintain law and order and the resulting anarchy and the rise of the Russian Mafia led to a breakdown of social order. With the collapse of the Rouble the government was unable to pay pensions or public sector wages and, effectively, there was a collapse of the banking system with the resultant loss of savings and cashflow for the man in the street. There was a widespread shortage of food and, in places, rationing. Even commerce was reduced to barter in many situations. All in all not a good place to be.



A quote from a 1998 report by the BBC :-

The government in Moscow estimates the Russian mafia controls 40% of private business and 60% of state-owned companies. Unofficial sources say 80% of Russian banks are controlled either directly or indirectly by criminals.


BBC NEWS | Special Report | 1998 | 03/98 | russian mafia | The rise and rise of the Russian mafia
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Post by Accountable »

Ahso!;1344094 wrote: What is going to to happen however, is we will continue to throw people out on the streets; reduce any remaining help from government (because people just don't want to care about anyone other than themselves these days);It's gov't help that's eroded people's caring about anyone other than themselves. Take away gov't "help" and neighborliness will return. You see it in poorer neighborhoods and small towns all the time.

Ahso! wrote: raise the retirement age to an even higher number (its not that old people don't want to work, its nobody will hire them for any job that can sustain a living);We shouldn't have a retirement age at all. Do away with SS & you do away with the retirement age. Anyone that needs help can get help anyway, even if SS never existed.

Ahso! wrote: and now they're talking about us losing our home mortgage interest tax exemption in order to offset the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations. Y'all willing to go there?Absolutely, and about time! Y'know, some idiots actually think that buying a house saves money on taxes because they can itemize & take a bigger deduction than the standard deduction others take. Simplify the tax code and people will be appalled at how much they really spend on gov't programs.
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Accountable
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Republican victories

Post by Accountable »

Bryn Mawr;1344103 wrote: It means no more credit on the open markets, withdrawal of inward investment by the multi-nationals, no imports of goods - or the raw materials your industry needs to manufacture goods.

Whilst America has more natural resources than most you are not self-sufficient by a long way. Also remember that "raw materials" will also include assembled sub-components and think how much production has been outsourced to China and South East Asia. You can re-tool but that will take time and, more importantly, money.

That means internal bankruptcies and spiralling job losses (the more people out of work, the less being spent in the internal economy so the more companies cut back and the more people out of work). The more companies going out of work the less tax income for the government so you also get public sector job cuts and a cutback in public sector contracts to the big corporations who then make losses and further job cuts.

This would go far beyond the problems seen during the Great Depression - remember, you weren't bankrupt then and external trade was still possibleDefinitely painful, but survivable, and the idea of public sector cuts is a major plus.



Bryn Mawr wrote: With Russia the loss of government funds meant that they were no longer able to maintain law and order and the resulting anarchy and the rise of the Russian Mafia led to a breakdown of social order. With the collapse of the Rouble the government was unable to pay pensions or public sector wages and, effectively, there was a collapse of the banking system with the resultant loss of savings and cashflow for the man in the street. There was a widespread shortage of food and, in places, rationing. Even commerce was reduced to barter in many situations. All in all not a good place to be.



A quote from a 1998 report by the BBC :-



BBC NEWS | Special Report | 1998 | 03/98 | russian mafia | The rise and rise of the Russian mafiaOur social order isn't as dependent on the force of gov't as it was in the USSR. Our gov't doesn't pay pensions now, except for gov't jobs - which, while far more than I'd like to see, are nowhere nearly as pervasive as theirs. Most of our banks are international corporations that run the gov't, not national services run by the gov't. The banks will be fine, even if the dollar collapses. Yes, I'm sure the cities will be devastated, but they're cesspools anyway. Hopefully people will move out of them and into the countryside to learn farming.

Still, I doubt it will come to all that.

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