The Miracle of Life Part 1

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OpenMind
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The Miracle of Life Part 1

Post by OpenMind »

We take our bodies for granted. But they are truly a miracle. The deeper science goes into the workings of the universe, the more amazed I am at the wonder of life.

A hundred years ago, the common person in the advanced world would not have understood what a cell is. Today, most of us can understand what a cell is and don’t have a great problem imagining these tiny things working away non-stop day in day out.

But how many of us can understand the human body in terms of quanta – those tiny little points of mass and energy that whiz around without any apparent aim. In fact, if we could see down to their level, we would only be discernible as a cloud that’s denser than the air that surrounds us. We would be amazed at the constant bombardment of photons and, by watching the reaction of our body’s particles to these photons, you would understand why fruit and vegetables need to be stored in the dark and why we need protection from the sun.

How amazing that a single little cell can develop out of all this stuff. Think about it, these particles do not have brains, minds or hearts – yet, this is what we are made of. Just the same, we do have brains, minds and hearts. Organs that, for the greater part, we take for granted. Out of all this tiny stuff, their existence is nothing short of a miracle. Aside from this, life as we know it on this planet has developed into a self-sustaining entity. A complex structure that reproduces itself. Could this have been the result of the random interplay of particles and energy? Consider the odds for a life form as intricate as ours that requires two models in order to reproduce. Consider the development of pollination. Which molecule came up with the idea to create pollen and bees?

So here we are, nothing more than a cloud of particles. We are all part of a huge cloud, a cloud that extends across the universe. We are as cells in a vast organism. Yet we are capable of so much. Conceptualisation, calculation, imagination, invention, thought, emotion, sensation, and more. All of these abilities are dependent on the quanta we are made of. Not only that, but we are guided by the pure enjoyment of the things we need to survive. If I am not enjoying my life, then I am doing something wrong.

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The Miracle of Life Part 1

Post by theia »

OpenMind wrote: We take our bodies for granted. But they are truly a miracle. The deeper science goes into the workings of the universe, the more amazed I am at the wonder of life.

A hundred years ago, the common person in the advanced world would not have understood what a cell is. Today, most of us can understand what a cell is and don’t have a great problem imagining these tiny things working away non-stop day in day out.

But how many of us can understand the human body in terms of quanta – those tiny little points of mass and energy that whiz around without any apparent aim. In fact, if we could see down to their level, we would only be discernible as a cloud that’s denser than the air that surrounds us. We would be amazed at the constant bombardment of photons and, by watching the reaction of our body’s particles to these photons, you would understand why fruit and vegetables need to be stored in the dark and why we need protection from the sun.

How amazing that a single little cell can develop out of all this stuff. Think about it, these particles do not have brains, minds or hearts – yet, this is what we are made of. Just the same, we do have brains, minds and hearts. Organs that, for the greater part, we take for granted. Out of all this tiny stuff, their existence is nothing short of a miracle. Aside from this, life as we know it on this planet has developed into a self-sustaining entity. A complex structure that reproduces itself. Could this have been the result of the random interplay of particles and energy? Consider the odds for a life form as intricate as ours that requires two models in order to reproduce. Consider the development of pollination. Which molecule came up with the idea to create pollen and bees?

So here we are, nothing more than a cloud of particles. We are all part of a huge cloud, a cloud that extends across the universe. We are as cells in a vast organism. Yet we are capable of so much. Conceptualisation, calculation, imagination, invention, thought, emotion, sensation, and more. All of these abilities are dependent on the quanta we are made of. Not only that, but we are guided by the pure enjoyment of the things we need to survive. If I am not enjoying my life, then I am doing something wrong.




This is truly fascinating stuff, Open. I've been interested in the proposed links between quantum physics and mysticism for a number of years although I know very little about science.

I'm reading a book presently that talks about our essence being pure energy...it doesn't in any way dismiss the presence of God...in fact it makes God more real in some sort of strange way. Reading what you've written makes me wonder if the huge cloud or the organism, as a whole, is a way of "perceiving" God.

And what do you think of the concept that we can, in some way, create our own reality...sorry, I'm going to get a little, or a lot, lost here but is it thought that makes the cells behave in a certain way? Or do we not have much choice over that?

(Yes, I'm drowning...please throw me a rope :-5 )
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
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Post by OpenMind »

Hi, Theia. To answer your first question first. Reading what you've written makes me wonder if the huge cloud or the organism, as a whole, is a way of "perceiving" God.


It is too early to say at this point. String theory suggests that each particle is a physical and

cross-sectional reprentation of a vibrating string. I haven't studied string theory sufficiently to be able to wrap my grey cells around it yet, but I will.

It is tempting to visualise the 'cloud organism' as a way of perceiving God, but I tend towards the idea that the 'organism', our universe, is part of a greater 'host'. This greater 'host' could, indeed, be God.





And what do you think of the concept that we can, in some way, create our own reality...is it thought that makes the cells behave in a certain way? Or do we not have much choice over that?




This is a subject I intend to present in a future thread. On the one hand, a thought is our own creation. On the other, a thought is developed from pre-conceived ideas. Underlying beliefs and faith also have an influence on how a thought will interact at the energy level. Whether we can literally create our own reality depends on whether a thought is radiated or not. Within the body, focussed visualisation can be used to heal, providing there is not an underlying negative belief that prevents it from working.

The idea that we transmit energy is nothing new. As far as influencing our environment is concerned, we would need to transmit a set of instructions. This will, by and large, involve transmitting energy and its codependent particles. However, I tend to think that the real answer here would lie in the capabilities of 'strings'. But I think I'm going a bit too far here at this point.

I believe that by means of accurate visualisation, we can create whatever we want. This would involve a mix of personal physical action as well as an apparent mystical interaction at the quanta level. Of course, if you don't believe it, it just won't happen.
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Post by weeder »

When I was very young, I would lie in bed waiting for sleep, and ponder the exact concepts you have written about. Trying to understand the process and Of how and why I was here, was so overwhelming for me, that I would have to push it out of my mind. Thinking about all of this, is the road that leads people down their personal spiritual quest for understanding. It is also why I have made my living surrounded by plants, and growing things. I have beenawed daily watching things grow. The key to understanding everything, would be knowing the answer to the question you ask. Who came up with the formula of cells mutiplying, and becoming what we are. It cant be a who. Does a single cell have a brain? Where does the single cell come from? I think there is a door to walk through where all of the answers are. I think that most humans do not find that door. I think that the small percentage of humans that do find it because they can eliminate all of the false realities the world creates. Those people know that the things that do keep us from enjoying life are diversions. Road blocks set up to make the door lost in brambles of trivia.
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Post by OpenMind »

weeder wrote: When I was very young, I would lie in bed waiting for sleep, and ponder the exact concepts you have written about. Trying to understand the process and Of how and why I was here, was so overwhelming for me, that I would have to push it out of my mind. Thinking about all of this, is the road that leads people down their personal spiritual quest for understanding. It is also why I have made my living surrounded by plants, and growing things. I have beenawed daily watching things grow. The key to understanding everything, would be knowing the answer to the question you ask. Who came up with the formula of cells mutiplying, and becoming what we are. It cant be a who. Does a single cell have a brain? Where does the single cell come from? I think there is a door to walk through where all of the answers are. I think that most humans do not find that door. I think that the small percentage of humans that do find it because they can eliminate all of the false realities the world creates. Those people know that the things that do keep us from enjoying life are diversions. Road blocks set up to make the door lost in brambles of trivia.


Sometimes, I don't think that we were meant to look for any 'door' or 'answers' as such. I believe we look for God because we were taught about Him as children. But, "...children...are of the Kingdom of God". There is a lot significance in this statement.

Nonetheless, exploration and discovery is part of the joy we can share. There is no harm in exploring the world around us, reaching out as far as we can. It is what we do with that knowledge that makes the difference.
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Post by Rapunzel »

OpenMind wrote: We take our bodies for granted. But they are truly a miracle. The deeper science goes into the workings of the universe, the more amazed I am at the wonder of life.

A hundred years ago, the common person in the advanced world would not have understood what a cell is. Today, most of us can understand what a cell is and don’t have a great problem imagining these tiny things working away non-stop day in day out.

But how many of us can understand the human body in terms of quanta – those tiny little points of mass and energy that whiz around without any apparent aim. In fact, if we could see down to their level, we would only be discernible as a cloud that’s denser than the air that surrounds us. We would be amazed at the constant bombardment of photons and, by watching the reaction of our body’s particles to these photons, you would understand why fruit and vegetables need to be stored in the dark and why we need protection from the sun.

How amazing that a single little cell can develop out of all this stuff. Think about it, these particles do not have brains, minds or hearts – yet, this is what we are made of. Just the same, we do have brains, minds and hearts. Organs that, for the greater part, we take for granted. Out of all this tiny stuff, their existence is nothing short of a miracle. Aside from this, life as we know it on this planet has developed into a self-sustaining entity. A complex structure that reproduces itself. Could this have been the result of the random interplay of particles and energy? Consider the odds for a life form as intricate as ours that requires two models in order to reproduce. Consider the development of pollination. Which molecule came up with the idea to create pollen and bees?

So here we are, nothing more than a cloud of particles. We are all part of a huge cloud, a cloud that extends across the universe. We are as cells in a vast organism. Yet we are capable of so much. Conceptualisation, calculation, imagination, invention, thought, emotion, sensation, and more. All of these abilities are dependent on the quanta we are made of. Not only that, but we are guided by the pure enjoyment of the things we need to survive. If I am not enjoying my life, then I am doing something wrong.




Hi OM,

did you actually write this yourself or did you copy it from somewhere?

I ask because you have stated very succinctly EXACTLY how I feel about how life and energy work, but I was unable to express my thoughts as clearly!

If you copied it from somewhere, please could you let me know where as I would like to follow this train of thought further. If you wrote it yourself then please continue with parts 2 & 3, etc, ad infinitum.

Maybe each type of cell has its own function, but what makes each cell different?

Does energy break down into many parts and come back to form a whole?

Is energy guided and what is its purpose?

I can't wait to read more of your theories. :-6
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Post by OpenMind »

Rapunzel wrote: Hi OM,

did you actually write this yourself or did you copy it from somewhere?

I ask because you have stated very succinctly EXACTLY how I feel about how life and energy work, but I was unable to express my thoughts as clearly!



If you copied it from somewhere, please could you let me know where as I would like to follow this train of thought further. If you wrote it yourself then please continue with parts 2 & 3, etc, ad infinitum.



Maybe each type of cell has its own function, but what makes each cell different?

Does energy break down into many parts and come back to form a whole?

Is energy guided and what is its purpose?



I can't wait to read more of your theories. :-6


Hi, Rap. This I wrote myself. When I started writing about it, I found that the subject was too large to put into one thread. I didn't want to post a thread that took too long to read. Even the best of us only have a short concentration span.

I have yet to compose the next part in which I hope to take things a stage further, and that's just appreciating the miracle of life. There is more.

Please be patient with me, however. Most of my time is spent checking up on quantum mechanics to make sure I'm not posting gibberish. While quantum mechanics is old hat nowadays(:rolleyes: ), I am not aware of any research on the relationships that I am presenting here. This means that I have to be very careful what I write and how I present my arguments.

If you look on Amazon, you will find books that have been written about the relationship between quantum mechanics and the spirit (just do a search for quantum mechanics or quantum physics, or just quantum). The reviews, however, are discouraging. I cannot truthfully say that I have read any of these books. It may be worthwhile if only to see if and where they are going wrong. Although, they may have fresh ideas that are worth consideration. Trouble is, I already have a pile of books that I haven't read as yet.

The replies that I have had so far back up another theory of mine that it is rare for one person alone to have an idea or theory. It's just a question of who gets it out first. I believe that this is nature's way of giving the idea a good chance of succeeding. Just like nature. It didn't produce 1 amoeba, it created trillions of them.:D

By the way, Rap. Thanks for your words of encouragement. When I posted it, I wasn't entirely happy with it. But it was a case of posting something or forever waiting for the perfect precis.
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Post by Rapunzel »

OpenMind wrote: Hi, Rap. This I wrote myself. When I started writing about it, I found that the subject was too large to put into one thread. I didn't want to post a thread that took too long to read. Even the best of us only have a short concentration span.

I have yet to compose the next part in which I hope to take things a stage further, and that's just appreciating the miracle of life. There is more.

Please be patient with me, however. Most of my time is spent checking up on quantum mechanics to make sure I'm not posting gibberish. While quantum mechanics is old hat nowadays(:rolleyes: ), I am not aware of any research on the relationships that I am presenting here. This means that I have to be very careful what I write and how I present my arguments.

If you look on Amazon, you will find books that have been written about the relationship between quantum mechanics and the spirit (just do a search for quantum mechanics or quantum physics, or just quantum). The reviews, however, are discouraging. I cannot truthfully say that I have read any of these books. It may be worthwhile if only to see if and where they are going wrong. Although, they may have fresh ideas that are worth consideration. Trouble is, I already have a pile of books that I haven't read as yet.

The replies that I have had so far back up another theory of mine that it is rare for one person alone to have an idea or theory. It's just a question of who gets it out first. I believe that this is nature's way of giving the idea a good chance of succeeding. Just like nature. It didn't produce 1 amoeba, it created trillions of them.:D

By the way, Rap. Thanks for your words of encouragement. When I posted it, I wasn't entirely happy with it. But it was a case of posting something or forever waiting for the perfect precis.


Well keep composing OM, because I think you are making an awful lot of sense!

I have tried to read articles on Quantum theories before, but they are usually not for the lay-person and they degenerate into technobabble that makes no sense to me!

In fact, the only books which I found really clear on the subject were the ones written by Russell Stannard e.g., "Uncle Albert and the Quantum Quest". He has written several books (for children) about Uncle Albert (Einstein) and his niece (Gedanken ~ his name for his thoughts) but they express his theories very clearly

I agree with your theory about many people having the same idea, which gives the idea a good chance of survival. I get lots of ideas for inventions but have no idea how to make them come about and so they sit in my head until eventually I forget about them or until I see someone else invent the same thing. So if it were left to me it would never get invented!

So keep up the good work! :-6
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Post by OpenMind »

Rapunzel wrote: Well keep composing OM, because I think you are making an awful lot of sense!



I have tried to read articles on Quantum theories before, but they are usually not for the lay-person and they degenerate into technobabble that makes no sense to me!



In fact, the only books which I found really clear on the subject were the ones written by Russell Stannard e.g., "Uncle Albert and the Quantum Quest". He has written several books (for children) about Uncle Albert (Einstein) and his niece (Gedanken ~ his name for his thoughts) but they express his theories very clearly



I agree with your theory about many people having the same idea, which gives the idea a good chance of survival. I get lots of ideas for inventions but have no idea how to make them come about and so they sit in my head until eventually I forget about them or until I see someone else invent the same thing. So if it were left to me it would never get invented!



So keep up the good work! :-6


I shall look up those books. In the meantime, I found Robert Gilmore's "The Wizard of Quarks" is useful for visualising at the quantum level.
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Post by OpenMind »

This is the synopsis for Russell Stannard's "Why?: Why Evil? Why Suffering? Why Death?"

Might make interesting reading.



If the world was created by God, why is it in such a mess? Russell Stannard begins his exploration with the question of evil. Why, he asks, do we see terrible things happening each day? Evil leads on to suffering. Evil does not, though, cause all suffering. What about natural disasters such as floods, earthquakes, disease? And finally there is death. It is the one inevitability we must all face up to in our lives. Does it not make everything seem pretty pointless? Drawing on his scientific background and his Christian faith, Russell Stannard offers penetrating and perceptive responses to these seemingly unanswerable questions.
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Post by Rapunzel »

Russell Stannard has written several books about Einstein and quite a few about his theories on God. The ones I have read are really interesting. I think I'll have to re-order "Uncle Albert & the Quantum Quest", "Uncle Albert & the Black Hole" and "the Time and Space of Uncle Albert" from Amazon, as I seem to have lost my copies when I moved house. :(

He breaks his theories down and makes them easily understandable so that I understood the concept of Quantum Theory when I read his books, which is something I never understood at school! :p ;) :wah:
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In that case, I'll get the Why? book. It's always good to get another's point of view.
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Post by memebias »

OpenMind wrote: We take our bodies for granted. But they are truly a miracle. The deeper science goes into the workings of the universe, the more amazed I am at the wonder of life.


A thought provoking piece. Needless to say, I see no miracles in the processes you describe, but interesting anyway.
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memebias wrote: A thought provoking piece. Needless to say, I see no miracles in the processes you describe, but interesting anyway.


An interesting statement, Memebias. I wonder if you would care to explain why you think or believe it to be other than a miracle.
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OpenMind wrote: An interesting statement, Memebias. I wonder if you would care to explain why you think or believe it to be other than a miracle.


Certainly Open, we’ll take your points one at a time. But first, I’d like to clear up something. Your use of the word ‘miracle’. Am I right in assuming you are using the word in its usual sense - an event or process that requires the revocation or suspension of known physical laws through the intervention of a supernatural entity because it cannot be explained by any other method? Rather than it’s everyday, non-supernatural usage, e.g. ”it’s a miracle my team won the game yesterday”.
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memebias wrote: Certainly Open, we’ll take your points one at a time. But first, I’d like to clear up something. Your use of the word ‘miracle’. Am I right in assuming you are using the word in its usual sense - an event or process that requires the revocation or suspension of known physical laws through the intervention of a supernatural entity because it cannot be explained by any other method? Rather than it’s everyday, non-supernatural usage, e.g. ”it’s a miracle my team won the game yesterday”.


I'm using the word in the latter sense, essentially colloquially, but pertaining to the fact that we don't know the laws that drive the quanta to create and sustain the life we know and experience and causes us to have a personal sense of self as distinct from another being.
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we don't know the laws that drive the quanta to create and sustain the life we know and experience


Isn’t it a huge assumption that there are in fact such laws? Is there any evidence that there is some kind of undiscovered facet of quantum theory that ‘drives’ the quantum state of our universe to ‘create’ and ‘sustain’ life. This is very close to the Anthropic Principal, is this your position?

and causes us to have a personal sense of self as distinct from another being.


Do quantum effects have an appreciable influence other than as the basic building block on what we call our ‘self’? Bearing in mind that these effects are only apparent at least two levels (atomic > sub-atomic) below the level of activity we see in the brain? It should be easy enough to prove, are there quantum events (such as non-locality) associated with brain activity that can be measured and shown to have an appreciable effect on our ‘self’?
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Memebias, you have not once presented a criticism of the main text I posted, you only criticised a short answer to yours about my use of the word 'miracle'. Are you sure you are not criticising me for the sake of it?

By the way, I have no idea what the Anthropic Principal is. Please couild you enlighten me?
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OM, I have not quite wrapped my brain around all you've said here, but I'm giving it a couple more reads and some thought. It sounds very intriguing, and I'd like to hear more.
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Memebias, you have not once presented a criticism of the main text I posted, you only criticised a short answer to yours about my use of the word 'miracle'. Are you sure you are not criticising me for the sake of it?




Criticizing you for the sake of it? No. But you have told me you are using the word miracle with its non-supernatural meaning, then I read you describing quantum events using words such as ‘drive’ and ‘sustain’ creation, words that can be read as anthropomorphising physical events, and you ask obviously rhetorical questions such as “how can this come about by chance?” I have to consider how I’m going to best address your remarks in the main text by finding out what your fundamental position is.

Tell me, do you believe the beginning of life was a random interplay of particles and energy? If yes, we have little to discuss. If no, and you think it was something more than random events, then you are adhering to the Anthropic Principal.

Basically, this Principle states that the fundamental universal constants are just too well suited for the development of life for it to be a matter of chance, and therefore, by inference, its development was caused by a higher being or beings.
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memebias wrote: Criticizing you for the sake of it? No. But you have told me you are using the word miracle with its non-supernatural meaning, then I read you describing quantum events using words such as ‘drive’ and ‘sustain’ creation, words that can be read as anthropomorphising physical events, and you ask obviously rhetorical questions such as “how can this come about by chance?” I have to consider how I’m going to best address your remarks in the main text by finding out what your fundamental position is.

Tell me, do you believe the beginning of life was a random interplay of particles and energy? If yes, we have little to discuss. If no, and you think it was something more than random events, then you are adhering to the Anthropic Principal.

Basically, this Principle states that the fundamental universal constants are just too well suited for the development of life for it to be a matter of chance, and therefore, by inference, its development was caused by a higher being or beings.


Ok, that's a fair enough answer. And, thanks for the definition of the Anthropic Principle.

In answer to your question, I neither believe one thing nor the other; although I tend to be scientifically biased. If science proved without a shadow of a doubt the existence of God, then I would believe it.

If I were to presume that God does not exist, then I still find life a miracle. Albeit, as I said somewhere here before, I find the concept of absolutely nothing more difficult to conceive than the concept of an infinity of 'something'. Even so, infinity means that there was no 'creation', per se.

Looking at life on this planet, there is a complexity of lifeforms that I find difficult to believe to have developed through chance alone. This could, of course, be taken as an argument that God does exist. However, it could also mean that there is an element to life that we have not yet discovered or come to appreciate.

On the other hand, it could be that I am under an illusion. Nonetheless, if all that is life today is because of a random interplay of all that is fundamental to the universe, I would accept this but find it even more a miracle since randomness increases the odds against the development of such a collection of succinct lifeforms.

That is my stance, I hope it helps you understand where I am coming from. Sorry I doubted you (now I've done a day's work, I am more awake).
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BabyRider wrote: OM, I have not quite wrapped my brain around all you've said here, but I'm giving it a couple more reads and some thought. It sounds very intriguing, and I'd like to hear more.


Thanks for your comment, BR.

Have you read the second part yet?

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showt ... hp?t=14768.

This is the last part of this item, but I have more planned that will hopefully take it further along similar veins.

I'm also looking forward to any input, for or against, as this is a necesary part towards understanding.
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OpenMind wrote: Thanks for your comment, BR.

Have you read the second part yet?

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showt ... hp?t=14768.

This is the last part of this item, but I have more planned that will hopefully take it further along similar veins.

I'm also looking forward to any input, for or against, as this is a necesary part towards understanding.
I have not yet read the second part, but it will be first on my list when I get home from work. (Have to leave in 5 minutes) It is all very intriguing, and if I can somehow get my mind around it, I'll be happy to share some input. :-6
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Post by memebias »

OpenMind wrote: That is my stance, I hope it helps you understand where I am coming from. Sorry I doubted you (now I've done a day's work, I am more awake).


Great, we're on the same wavelength. I'll give you my thoughts on your OP in the next couple of days, I've a lot of work to get through by the end of the Easter holidays, before I'm back with my nose to the grindstone.

BTW, No apology needed. :)
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Post by memebias »

Open, from your O.P.

Aside from this, life as we know it on this planet has developed into a self-sustaining entity. A complex structure that reproduces itself. Could this have been the result of the random interplay of particles and energy? Consider the odds for a life form as intricate as ours that requires two models in order to reproduce. Consider the development of pollination. Which molecule came up with the idea to create pollen and bees?


When discussing life on Earth we have to be careful when using words such as random as in the passage above and in your post #21.

It’s often stated on creationist websites that god(s) must exist because the odds of an organism as complicated as a human appearing from ‘random’ mixtures of molecules are so great you would spend your whole life writing down the figure.

This is a ridiculous strawman argument of course. Only creationists believe humanity arose in its present form.

Biologists believe complex organisms are the result of incremental change over long periods of time (and this includes more complicated and efficient methods of reproduction than asexuality).

The co-evolution of flowers and pollinating animals is also reasonably explained by evolution. Before the development of plant/animal co-evolution, all plants released pollen into the air or water. One random genetic change via faulty transmission of genetic code that made the pollen too ‘sticky’ to be blown off by the wind, but sticky enough to adhere to the body of an insect brushing against it whilst browsing on the plant would be all that would be required to begin the co-evolution of plants and some animals - to the benefit of both.
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The Miracle of Life Part 1

Post by OpenMind »

memebias wrote: Open, from your O.P.







When discussing life on Earth we have to be careful when using words such as random as in the passage above and in your post #21.

It’s often stated on creationist websites that god(s) must exist because the odds of an organism as complicated as a human appearing from ‘random’ mixtures of molecules are so great you would spend your whole life writing down the figure.

This is a ridiculous strawman argument of course. Only creationists believe humanity arose in its present form.

Biologists believe complex organisms are the result of incremental change over long periods of time (and this includes more complicated and efficient methods of reproduction than asexuality).

The co-evolution of flowers and pollinating animals is also reasonably explained by evolution. Before the development of plant/animal co-evolution, all plants released pollen into the air or water. One random genetic change via faulty transmission of genetic code that made the pollen too ‘sticky’ to be blown off by the wind, but sticky enough to adhere to the body of an insect brushing against it whilst browsing on the plant would be all that would be required to begin the co-evolution of plants and some animals - to the benefit of both.


In other words, action and reaction. I certainly won't refute what you say. Nonetheless, it would only take one thing to devoid life on this planet as we know it.

As one example, the mitochondrial DNA is actually a virus that is beneficial to the host cell insofar as it enables the cell to use the energy from oxygen more efficiently. It also provides a more efficient way of tracing our ancestry than the cell's DNA.

In the quantum world, if an arrangement is possible, then it will be done. If things didn't happen on this planet, it would have happened on another. No doubt about that. As I have experienced. When I have a new idea, I can virtually guarantee that other individuals will also have similar ideas. This is an example of action and reaction since our ideas are developed from what has gone before.

Nonetheless, particles cannot choose the particles that they interact with, they can only interact to whatever particles come their way. The quantum forces can only instruct the particles how they will react to other particles. On the other hand, considering the scale of things, every alternative arrangement will be tried.

Nonetheless, I still look upon it all with great wonder and awe. Here I am, a host of particles who are capable of experiencing something as beautiful or ugly. I still choose to call it a 'miracle' because, as Stephen Hawking said, in his book, "The Universe in a Nutshell", every aspect of this universe could have turned out differently as determined by the initial explosion which determined how the dimensions were established. Our three-dimensional world may not have been created if the dimensions had a different order of potency. But here we are, and unlike the quantum world that provides for our foundation, life is very stable. Not only that, but it is a whole. That is, rather than our universe consisting of distinctly separate objects, everything exists as one object.
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The Miracle of Life Part 1

Post by memebias »

In other words, action and reaction. I certainly won't refute what you say. Nonetheless, it would only take one thing to devoid life on this planet as we know it.




Right. But that does not preclude life as we don’t know it. Biologists have speculated on life forms based on other complex molecules other than carbon, and even plasma based life forms.



Nonetheless, particles cannot choose the particles that they interact with, they can only interact to whatever particles come their way.


I think you’re going to have to define what you are talking about when you mention ‘particles’ before I can give you a sensible reply.

Nonetheless, I still look upon it all with great wonder and awe.


So do I. I look on Niagara Falls with wonder and awe, even though I know it is the product of things such as geology and gravity.



Here I am, a host of particles who are capable of experiencing something as beautiful or ugly. I still choose to call it a 'miracle' because, as Stephen Hawking said, in his book, "The Universe in a Nutshell", every aspect of this universe could have turned out differently as determined by the initial explosion which determined how the dimensions were established. Our three-dimensional world may not have been created if the dimensions had a different order of potency.


If our universe had turned out appreciably different we wouldn’t be discussing it. This getting close to the Anthropic Principle, it’s a bit like fish being amazed how water is just exactly right to live in. Hawking is right in saying it could have been different, but he doesn’t give any figures on the likelihood of a universe with more or less space/time dimensions than the one we exist in, he is a theoretical physicist speculating on theoretical physics.

And as universes with more or less than three spatial dimensions and more than one time dimension are inherently unstable, our three plus one universe may be the only viable configuration.

See if you can get hold of the work by Max Tegman describing the consequences for the existence of matter in universes with more or less space and time dimensions.

But here we are, and unlike the quantum world that provides for our foundation, life is very stable.


Here we disagree. Life may be persistent and lucky, but I wouldn’t call it stable.

Not only that, but it is a whole. That is, rather than our universe consisting of distinctly separate objects, everything exists as one object.


Far too philosophical for me. :)
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The Miracle of Life Part 1

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I think you’re going to have to define what you are talking about when you mention ‘particles’ before I can give you a sensible reply.


By 'particles', I refer to point particles such as electrons, photons, protons, neutrons, gluons, muons, gravitons, and so on.

Max Tegman. I will look up his works. Thanks for the reference, Meme.





Here we disagree. Life may be persistent and lucky, but I wouldn’t call it stable.




Fortunately for us, 'objects' do not 'pop' in or out of existence. There is sufficient tenability that we can live our lives out (providing, of course, we don't jump in front of a train) and pass on our possessions. I refer to stability in this sense. Of course, we live with creation and decay without a moments thought and we are aware that we have a limited lifespan.





But that does not preclude life as we don’t know it.




Life as we don't know it is either that which we haven't discovered or that which doesn't exist (yet). But, if it can be done, then it will be done. If it's possible, then at some point in time, it will occur. Speculation is useful in this respect. All these things would be affected by a universe that was created with just one thing different. This, of course is rhetorical speculation as our universe is as it is.

We have discovered lifeforms that can survive at the bottom of the oceans in a sulphuric atmosphere with extreme heat. But whether these lifeforms could develop into anything as substantial as carbon-based lifeforms is only open to further speculation at the moment. for instance, silicon-based lifeforms become too brittle to sustain theirselves as they develop into more complex forms.





Far too philosophical for me.




Would you call yourself a whole. Yet you are no more than a complex combination of quantum particles and forces. Although we can distinguish between individual objects, and have the ability to displace them, there is no such distinction at the quantum level. Therefore, the whole universe is as one body corporate within which we find a whole host of interacting particles and forces.
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The Miracle of Life Part 1

Post by memebias »

By 'particles', I refer to point particles such as electrons, photons, protons, neutrons, gluons, muons, gravitons, and so on.


Right. OK, but even at this sub-atomic level there are constraints on these interactions. An individual particle may have no choice in what other individual particle it may interact with, but it is still constrained by what type of particle it can interact with.

Fortunately for us, 'objects' do not 'pop' in or out of existence.


Can you see the stability of life at any level above the quantum realm? From the fundamental biological level to the cosmological level? The fact our genetic code is unstable is the reason we exist, (of course this cellular instability has its drawbacks – such as cancer.)

Our environment isn’t conducive to the stability of life either; we have records of more than one mass extinction in our planets history, – in one case around 90% of the life on earth became extinct. We are a thin smear of organic material on the crust of a planet that is prone to catastrophic global climate changes such as ice ages. We have been lucky up ‘till now, these ice ages have not lasted long enough to wipe all life off the planet, and life has been resilient enough to recover, but there are no guarantees that the next one will be as benign.

We are surrounded by a cloud of debris that contains billions of potential Earth impact bodies in orbits that are unstable enough to allow them to be pulled into the inner solar system, many large enough to be capable of vaporising the Earth.



Looking at the universe we live in, and how hostile it is to life, the fact that objects don’t pop in or out of existence on a level that materially affects us is cold comfort. As I said, life is persistent and lucky – up until now.

Would you call yourself a whole. Yet you are no more than a complex combination of quantum particles and forces. Although we can distinguish between individual objects, and have the ability to displace them, there is no such distinction at the quantum level. Therefore, the whole universe is as one body corporate within which we find a whole host of interacting particles and forces.


But what does this mean from a practical point of view? On one level of existence I may be described as a collection of quantum events, but the particular collection of quantum events that makes up ‘me’ has no effect on the collection of quantum events that make up a galaxy ten billion light years away.

Being part of a ‘whole’ may be a nice philosophical point of view, but you will be hard pressed to find an interpretation of quantum mechanics that describe any kind of measurable interaction between you and the event horizon of a black hole, or how your existence or non-existence on the quantum level effects the rate of rotation of a galactic super-cluster. As I said, far too philosophical for me. :)
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The Miracle of Life Part 1

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Our environment isn’t conducive to the stability of life either; we have records of more than one mass extinction in our planets history, – in one case around 90% of the life on earth became extinct. We are a thin smear of organic material on the crust of a planet that is prone to catastrophic global climate changes such as ice ages. We have been lucky up ‘till now, these ice ages have not lasted long enough to wipe all life off the planet, and life has been resilient enough to recover, but there are no guarantees that the next one will be as benign.




Death and decay are the first examples of the frailty of life. However, the 'catastophies' you mention would be worse without stability in the universe. Nothing could exist for very long. Instability would be the result of the breakdown or changing of the laws of physics. It is the constancy of these laws that maintain stability in the universe. Catastrophies are the result of these laws being played out.

I see you have edited your post. However, the example you gave of a star going supernova back in the 19th century, apart from being a catastrophe for us (I would rather it waited until after the London meeting of a few FG members:) ), is following physical laws. It also provides an initial example of how particles in one part of the universe can influence another part. Asteroids are another example, and photons provide a third.

There is an old saying, I cannot remember it verbatim, but it goes along the lines that a feather that floats to the ground contributes to the storm in another part of the world. This, of course, is extreme. Nonetheless, particles do not jigger about in one spot. Particles, either individually, or en masse, are constantly on the move. Ultimately, the movement of a particle in one part of the universe will eventually, through chain reaction, cause a reaction in another part of the universe remote from the first. Of course, all particles are doing the same thing, so the effect of the one particle will also depend on whether other particles either augment or negate the effect. Photons, however, have a more direct effect on an area of the universe remote from its point of emission.

The fact that this is a hostile universe makes our existence even more amazing. However, it is not so amazing when it is understood that this universe covers all probabilities and all outcomes.
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