Westcliff Debates proposal

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spot
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Westcliff Debates proposal

Post by spot »

Something which was discussed at length by delegates to the ForumGarden 2006 London Meet was a mechanism for an additional rather more structured style of debate than the existing Sub-Forums permit. I took notes and was asked to describe online at a suitable moment what were eventually formalized, and are here described, as Westcliff Rules.

The rules are intended, within a given pre-announced debate,
  • to remove all off-topic interruption to a side channelto allow statement of position, presentation of evidence, rebuttal and summaryto limit the scope to a predefined topicto limit the duration to a pre-specified number of postsWe have in mind the creation of a paired thread for each single debate, one for common discussion of the debate as it progresses and one for the debate itself. The initial implementation of Westcliff Rules require the posters to the debate thread to consist solely of the Chair, two people arguing for the motion and two against.

    We have two initial formats in mind, the direct debate and the switched debate. In the switched debate, after a first half consisting of direct debate the supporters of the motion switch with the opponents and argue the other side of the motion in the second half.

    There is no scoring mechanism, nobody wins or loses, and anyone at all can join in the corresponding discussion thread as the debate progresses.

    A direct debate consists of fourteen messages, these being:
    • Post 1, from the Chair: The title, the motion, a naming and introduction to the Proposer and Seconder, and to the Opposition pairPost 2, from the Proposer, putting the case for the motionPost 3, from the Leader of the Opposition, putting the case against the motionPost 4, from the Seconder, advancing the case for the motionPost 5, from the Second Opposition, advancing the case against the motionPosts 6, 7, 8 and 9 in the same order rebutting the initial posts from both counterpart postersPost 10, 11, 12 and 13 as summaries by the Seconder, the Second Opposition, The Leader of the Opposition and finally the ProposerPost 14, from the Chair, concluding the debateThe proprieties of debate accepted by participants under Westcliff Rules are:
      • Scrupulous adherence to civil and polite speechAll points to be addressed to the Chair (which avoids this bugbear of "you" being taken personally every time it appears)All reference works to be cited, preferably to be online, none to be copy-pasted in full into the thread, no quotation to exceed eighty words - fuller quotes if needed can be lodged into the discussion thread and treated as available testimonyNo new external material or references to be introduced into the debate beyond the rebuttal phase (which ends at post 9)


        I doubt whether we'll try a switched debate until we've tested out this smaller direct format, but the intention is that the two center rounds, proposition and rebuttal, are repeated with the motion reversed and that the only summary thereafter is from the Chair - in other words, the switched debate is not conclusive but allows both sides to strengthen the debate itself rather than their own partisan preference.

        I think, Administrators, that if you want to implement this, you might look at vBulletin Membership Groups so that anyone wishing to contribute text can apply for and automatically receive write permission to the Sub-Forum threads. We may need a sanction for anyone other than the formal participants posting into the debate threads, at least to the extent of deleting commentary posts from people who don't understand what's going on. We'd like the debates to be univerally readable regardless of FG membership or Group membership (if that's the mechanism adopted for keeping the threads cleaned).

        The ForumGarden 2006 London Meet thanks you for your consideration.
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Westcliff Debates proposal

Post by spot »

If I may, after enduring this evening's hissy fits in various threads, I'd like to bring this back for further consideration. Do comment, anyone - pro or con, either's better than indifference.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Westcliff Debates proposal

Post by chonsigirl »

A form of debate would be good, you would have to pick a chair for the topic under discussion to keep the flow going and to prevent off topic remarks.

This reminds me of high school debating, with a strict form of rules. I do not mind that, I do not know what others would propose.

I would offer to sit as chair of topics within my fields of knowledge-that way I can keep out of the debates!-but direct the flow.

Some alternative would be nice to have, because I know I personally will not join specific issues under discussion, when "hostile" replies are posted in return. Like many others, we find solace in the arcade. (not that I'm beating any scores in there!)

I think this topic would be good to discuss, with input from the admin on what their take is on it. It might or might not be how they perceive their forum flow of posting.
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Westcliff Debates proposal

Post by spot »

SnoozeControl wrote: I'd like to marry a hyena.Just as the good Lord intended then, Snooze - Like marrying with Like. Have you no washing up to do? You may prefer to answer this in PM, so as not to disturb the even flow of thought that's starting to emerge here with your random ejaculations.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Westcliff Debates proposal

Post by spot »

SnoozeControl wrote: Is that physically possible, me being a female and all?:-2
Vun moment, mein liebling, vile I pull on zees rubber gloves, and ve vill find out.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Westcliff Debates proposal

Post by anastrophe »

"either's better than indifference."



as is fairly well known, the FG head gardeners spend precious little time actually on FG, aside from getting into heated battles about highly emotional issues, apparently synchronous with solar flare activity.



we haven't ignored your proposal - we simply weren't aware of it.



as to implementing this - i've no idea how it would be done. tombstone can give a yea, nay, or 'can't be done' on the matter. i would recommend PM'ing him, or webmaster, with the request....
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Westcliff Debates proposal

Post by anastrophe »

oh, and you two have truly become quite dizzgusting with these parries and thrusts. so to speak.
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Westcliff Debates proposal

Post by spot »

anastrophe wrote: oh, and you two have truly become quite dizzgusting with these parries and thrusts. so to speak.We were discussing her washing up, old man. I can't go near hot soapy water and crockery without rubber gloves on, I might drop something.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Westcliff Debates proposal

Post by Bez »

Fine if you like structured, ordered debate and I can see it suiting some of our members. It might be interesting to be a spectator...all depends on the subject.

I prefer to chat, informally discuss and indulge in a bit of light conversation.

Good heavens, how shallow that sounds, but that's me I'm afraid. :)
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Westcliff Debates proposal

Post by spot »

Bez wrote: Fine if you like structured, ordered debate and I can see it suiting some of our members. It might be interesting to be a spectator...all depends on the subject.

I prefer to chat, informally discuss and indulge in a bit of light conversation.

Good heavens, how shallow that sounds, but that's me I'm afraid. :)Bez, I have seen you in action, you could get passers-by to climb the north face of the Eiger if the need arose.

Though, thinking about it - if they were passing by the bottom of the north face of the Eiger, there's not much alternative reason for their being there in the first place than to climb it. I'm sorry, my mind's gone off on a slight tangent here. It'd be a case of "Oi, you with the 1500 feet of coiled polyethylene five-eighths and two dozen karabiners, tie off thirty feet above that overhang and wait there for further instructions" rather than "excuse me miss, we'll look after your shopping and the pushchair, do you think you can reach that ledge and let this rope down?"... I'm not making a lot of sense here, am I. Let me try a different approach - when we were stood outside the White Tower, it occured to me what a fine figure you'd cut dressed as a Beefeater - I'm sure if you joined the army to see the world, you'd be promoted to Sergeant in no time at all.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Westcliff Debates proposal

Post by Bez »

spot wrote: Bez, I have seen you in action, you could get passers-by to climb the north face of the Eiger if the need arose.

Though, thinking about it - if they were passing by the bottom of the north face of the Eiger, there's not much alternative reason for their being there in the first place than to climb it. I'm sorry, my mind's gone off on a slight tangent here. It'd be a case of "Oi, you with the 1500 feet of coiled polyethylene five-eighths and two dozen karabiners, tie off thirty feet above that overhang and wait there for further instructions" rather than "excuse me miss, we'll look after your shopping and the pushchair, do you think you can reach that ledge and let this rope down?"... I'm not making a lot of sense here, am I. Let me try a different approach - when we were stood outside the White Tower, it occured to me what a fine figure you'd cut dressed as a Beefeater - I'm sure if you joined the army to see the world, you'd be promoted to Sergeant in no time at all.


Good Lord spot....I am the right age group (nearly) to be a beefeater, and I am fond of organising ( I'm a manager after all), I prefer trousers to skirts purely for reasons of comfort, but hopefully I'm a bit more feminine than you're implying....and honestly folks .....I've got no hint of a beard, or a beer belly :D
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Westcliff Debates proposal

Post by spot »

Bez wrote: .....I've got no hint of a beard, or a beer belly :DI seem to have bitten off the wrong end of the stick somehow! I thought the rules for becoming a Beefeater were such that one could accept the post from the age of thirty-something - I wouldn't dream of implying that you might be anything older! - and that the British Army had employed lady sergeants for many years now - and nobody said on the tour that there were no lady beefeaters! If they haven't got round to recruiting any yet, then they ought to. I wasn't suggesting you were manly at all. Organized, yes. Fluffy-headed, no. I realize that over the years many women joined the army impersonating men but that wasn't at all the point of my post.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Westcliff Debates proposal

Post by Bez »

spot wrote: I seem to have bitten off the wrong end of the stick somehow! I thought the rules for becoming a Beefeater were such that one could accept the post from the age of thirty-something - I wouldn't dream of implying that you might be anything older! - and that the British Army had employed lady sergeants for many years now - and nobody said on the tour that there were no lady beefeaters! If they haven't got round to recruiting any yet, then they ought to. I wasn't suggesting you were manly at all. Organized, yes. Fluffy-headed, no. I realize that over the years many women joined the army impersonating men but that wasn't at all the point of my post.


I'm just jesting spot...don't mind me...:) :-6 ;)
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Westcliff Debates proposal

Post by spot »

Bez wrote: I'm just jesting spot...don't mind me...:) :-6 ;)Yes Sergeant. Permission to carry on?

I hope you wouldn't have wanted a higher rank on ForumGarden, I think we've just found you a nickname.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Westcliff Debates proposal

Post by Raven »

My vote is for a debate forum. I like the structure proposed. And the topics can be as controversial as any, but without the lambasting of people simply arguing the opposing view. Argue one side, then switch! With maybe a poll thrown in to see who wins!:cool:
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Westcliff Debates proposal

Post by spot »

A switch-sides debate is no problem, and I agree that the reason to do that is to allow some form of vote for team as well as for topic. I can see that happening, once people have got the hand of the format itself. Maybe if we try the first one or two without complications or voting we'll know a lot better what's possible.

The non-confrontational aspect that you mention is vital, yes.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Post by Raven »

I also really like the idea we discussed about a non copy/paste rule. Only for reference. We should do our own research, and place it in our own words. Means we have to read, but thats the game isnt it?:wah:
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Post by AussiePam »

I'm bumping this thread from May of this year.
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Post by Nomad »

AussiePam;473556 wrote: I'm bumping this thread from May of this year.


Always startin trouble arent ya ? :p
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Post by AussiePam »

The bit that particularly intrigued me, Nomad, was the fact that some formal meeting seems to have been held, with delegates and all... I appreciate formal debate, I like its logic, but the areas now in existence seem to exceed this ? mandate. Perhaps it's time for the issue to be considered again, with a wider 'delegate' base.
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Post by Nomad »

AussiePam;473573 wrote: The bit that particularly intrigued me, Nomad, was the fact that some formal meeting seems to have been held, with delegates and all... I appreciate formal debate, I like its logic, but the areas now in existence seem to exceed this ? mandate. Perhaps it's time for the issue to be considered again, with a wider 'delegate' base.




There might be clandestine operatives amongst us. Plotting and twisting.

Or just good old fashioned gossiping.
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Post by AussiePam »

Nomad;473581 wrote: There might be clandestine operatives amongst us. Plotting and twisting.

Or just good old fashioned gossiping.


I don't care about that, Nomie. I'm not much of a gossip or for that matter a clandestine operative. I liked Spot when I first met him. We both love language and can make it work for us. His music is totally my music. The classical education thing. BUT, I don't care for the way he treats people. Like they are worthless because they can't argue on the same linguistic plane. He's been getting some kind of kicks hurting people I care about.

I do really like a properly run debate, the kind promoted by Oxford and Cambridge unis, and hey, Sydney University too. But scoring academic points at the cost of wounding other humans.... not for me.
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Post by Accountable »

I propose that Spot be removed as moderator of the Westcliff Debates forum for abuse of privilege, and be replacec by AussiePam.



All in favor post AYE!







Any opposed post nay.
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Post by AussiePam »

Thanks Accountable for that really constructive post. :sneaky: Grin. And for thinking of me. I'm honoured, but must decline the nomination. In fact, I think I've been online much too much today. And I'm feeling generally peeved by it all. Playground stuff. Bullying. Gonna hit the hay now and go out in the fresh air tomorrow. There is life, and meaning, outside the ForumGarden. Thank heavens.
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Post by Bill Sikes »

Accountable;473673 wrote: I propose that Spot be removed as moderator of the Westcliff Debates forum for abuse of privilege


What abuse of privilege? I will agree if you make a unequivocally valid point.
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Post by Accountable »

*Stepping away for Tombstone*
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Post by anastrophe »

Bill Sikes;473733 wrote: What abuse of privilege? I will agree if you make a unequivocally valid point.




the abuse of privilege is patent, obvious, and unequivocal. the moderating powers were granted in order to enforce the westcliff rules of debate within any such debates in this set aside part of the garden. however, the moderator also chose to create a 'discuss' area, for discussion of the specific debates. the moderator then chose to abuse his privilege by editing the content of other user's posts in the discussion area, which is outside of the common sense limit of this particular grant of power. another user chose to start several threads within the westcliff discussion area previously, completely outside of the stated premise of the discussion area ("Talk about the debates as they progress and after they conclude."), and the moderator chose - for obvious reasons of favoritism - to ignore this premise, and allow these completely irrelevant threads to exist and be participated in. in so doing, he wrote his own sentence - his neglect of his moderation duties, in allowing threads to exist outside the bounds he himself set for discussion - clearly showed that moderation of the discussion area was not within his bailiwick. upon finding content the moderator found offensive, uncomfortable, or who knows, purely on the basis of parti pris, he decided to start altering the contents of some users posts, ex post facto his 'benign' neglect of his moderator duties with the threads started by his favorite nubmachingling.



favoritism has no place when it comes to acting as moderator - hell, it's the antithesis of acting as a moderator. the topics started by the other user in the discuss area should have been swept clean at first post, but were not.



it's a pathetic and transparent abuse of power. frankly, i would consider tampering with posts that are outside the grant of ones powers to be a bannable offense. luckily for the moderator in question, i have no say in the matter.
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Post by Lulu2 »

Suckish? :wah:
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