jester:-6
That you would say Islam is a total lie is your opinion and not one that I and many others share.
I don't believe for one moment that Christianity is any more violent than Islam. The fact of the matter is that there is extreme violence in the history and present day behaviour of extremists in both faiths. To say any different is to simply wear horse blinders.
In each of the countries I listed there are very large Christian populations. BTW please name a Christian country.
The fact of the matter is that homosexuals are subjected to gross abuse by people in all faiths including Christianity and that is the only sin in homosexuality. It is absurd that people define others by their sexuality as if that were the only thing that counts. God created the homosexual as he did everyone else. He didn't seem to have a problem with it. Perhaps some people think they know better.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
ah yeah good debate!!!
okay koan your tally is 3 out of 4 points
jester you got 2 out of 4
ted you got 2 out of 4
freetobeme 2 out 4
koan, you are bringing personal bias in with your own family and all, minus 1 points
jester, you are way off base due to your underlying falacial argument of killing as solution to problems, plus you quote the Bible too much (-2 points-and I'm cutting you some slack so don't get all puffed up);
ted, you are subtracted two points because your homosexual argument is not even begun to be supported by any religion in the world
freetobeme, you are deducted twice because you haven't submitted enough counterarguments, plus you reference news articles which never is a good source of info
you all are deducted at least 5 points because of the subject matter;
now get some lime salt, have someone wipe your forehead and carry on, will you?!
E
okay koan your tally is 3 out of 4 points
jester you got 2 out of 4
ted you got 2 out of 4
freetobeme 2 out 4
koan, you are bringing personal bias in with your own family and all, minus 1 points
jester, you are way off base due to your underlying falacial argument of killing as solution to problems, plus you quote the Bible too much (-2 points-and I'm cutting you some slack so don't get all puffed up);
ted, you are subtracted two points because your homosexual argument is not even begun to be supported by any religion in the world
freetobeme, you are deducted twice because you haven't submitted enough counterarguments, plus you reference news articles which never is a good source of info
you all are deducted at least 5 points because of the subject matter;
now get some lime salt, have someone wipe your forehead and carry on, will you?!
E
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
watermark:-6
You are wrong on the acceptance of my comments on homosexuality. There are many denominations. that accept there is no problem with homosexuality. Buddhism has no problem. Some Hindus and Muslims have no problem.
Shalom
Ted:-6
You are wrong on the acceptance of my comments on homosexuality. There are many denominations. that accept there is no problem with homosexuality. Buddhism has no problem. Some Hindus and Muslims have no problem.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Ted;741530 wrote: watermark:-6
You are wrong on the acceptance of my comments on homosexuality. There are many denominations. that accept there is no problem with homosexuality. Buddhism has no problem. Some Hindus and Muslims have no problem.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Buddhism is not a religion. Denominations don't count as religions in my opinion. My point may be that religion is not an institution one can argue with in terms of homosexuality.
:-6
You are wrong on the acceptance of my comments on homosexuality. There are many denominations. that accept there is no problem with homosexuality. Buddhism has no problem. Some Hindus and Muslims have no problem.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Buddhism is not a religion. Denominations don't count as religions in my opinion. My point may be that religion is not an institution one can argue with in terms of homosexuality.
:-6
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
LOL
I could argue for my point back too as, having sat with Muslims, related and not related, I have direct knowledge of how the Koran is implemented in real life. Being related to a Muslim just happens to be how I had the occasion to sit with them.
I'm trying to decide which parts of the debate got skipped over from the point of Muhammad's recital of Islam to today's terrorists... thanks for the nice break, watermark. I'm not rejoicing at a win yet though. I'd like to feel the thread contains enough information to help people understand a little better what they are being taught to fear.
I could argue for my point back too as, having sat with Muslims, related and not related, I have direct knowledge of how the Koran is implemented in real life. Being related to a Muslim just happens to be how I had the occasion to sit with them.
I'm trying to decide which parts of the debate got skipped over from the point of Muhammad's recital of Islam to today's terrorists... thanks for the nice break, watermark. I'm not rejoicing at a win yet though. I'd like to feel the thread contains enough information to help people understand a little better what they are being taught to fear.
-
freetobeme
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:05 pm
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
I wondered about the RofP website and it does reference articles, the events they document are accurate. Lets not forget either that there were umpteen terrorist attacks around the world long before 9/11, this isn't something new.
I could reference more articles, there are many but if you don't like news accounts where else is one supposed to get their 'news'...
Hizb ut-Tahrir is one group (along with OBL and A.Q.) which says that Muslims should abolish national boundaries within the Islamic world and return to a single Islamic state, known as "the Caliphate," stretching from Indonesia to Morocco and would contain more than 1.5 billion people.
The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is a tad more moderate but also buys into a global caliphate.or Muslims who want to move toward Western models of democracy and none of them elaborate on how they would topple the West."
http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news ... id=2370234
"HT argues that the Quran says that all non-Muslim countries, cultures and individuals must submit to Islam. HT members who accept this theory naturally begin to see the world exclusively in terms of Muslims and non-Muslims, and inevitably begin to see all non-Islamic entities as worthy of destruction. In addition, HT's absolute rejection of democracy as un-Islamic is considerably more hard line than that of the Muslim Brotherhood and other groups, while the group also takes highly conservative positions regarding women, alcohol and freedom of speech.
"And if after all discussions and negotiations they still refuse, then the last resort will be a jihad to spread the spirit of Islam and the rule of Islam," he says, smiling. "This is done in the interests of all people to get them out of darkness and into light."
I could reference more articles, there are many but if you don't like news accounts where else is one supposed to get their 'news'...
Hizb ut-Tahrir is one group (along with OBL and A.Q.) which says that Muslims should abolish national boundaries within the Islamic world and return to a single Islamic state, known as "the Caliphate," stretching from Indonesia to Morocco and would contain more than 1.5 billion people.
The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is a tad more moderate but also buys into a global caliphate.or Muslims who want to move toward Western models of democracy and none of them elaborate on how they would topple the West."
http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news ... id=2370234
"HT argues that the Quran says that all non-Muslim countries, cultures and individuals must submit to Islam. HT members who accept this theory naturally begin to see the world exclusively in terms of Muslims and non-Muslims, and inevitably begin to see all non-Islamic entities as worthy of destruction. In addition, HT's absolute rejection of democracy as un-Islamic is considerably more hard line than that of the Muslim Brotherhood and other groups, while the group also takes highly conservative positions regarding women, alcohol and freedom of speech.
"And if after all discussions and negotiations they still refuse, then the last resort will be a jihad to spread the spirit of Islam and the rule of Islam," he says, smiling. "This is done in the interests of all people to get them out of darkness and into light."
senior's politics and discussion
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
watermark:-6
Buddhism is not a religion? Check the well accepted work of Karen Armstrong "Buddha"and "The Great Transformation". It would appear upon research that not all agree with that statement.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Buddhism is not a religion? Check the well accepted work of Karen Armstrong "Buddha"and "The Great Transformation". It would appear upon research that not all agree with that statement.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
jester:-6
You haven't named a Christian country.
Perhaps I should list the countries that America has interfered with either in direct military action or covert action. Yes the history of Christianity right to the present is just as violent as Islam or any of the others.
One of the issues is to consider the state of development of each country at the present time. Many are not as advanced in their thinking as others. Within each country some still live in the past even the dark ages.
Shalom
Ted:-6
You haven't named a Christian country.
Perhaps I should list the countries that America has interfered with either in direct military action or covert action. Yes the history of Christianity right to the present is just as violent as Islam or any of the others.
One of the issues is to consider the state of development of each country at the present time. Many are not as advanced in their thinking as others. Within each country some still live in the past even the dark ages.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Christianity is, in fact, a red herring in this debate.
Fundamentalist Islam along with fundamentalist Jews and fundamentalist Christians (like Jerry Falwell) are fighting secular humanism. They saw the world losing touch with God and all three of them rebelled. With the fall of the Iranian Shah, fundamentalism saw a chance to win the fight over the Godless society they saw taking over and destroying what they believed to be a doomed society.
All three have fought and continue to fight their battles in their own ways over the land that they felt belonged to them.
The split between the two factions of Muslims is reminiscent of the Protestants fighting the Catholics. There is nothing new going on with Islam, they are fighting the same battle as anyone else but we don't recognise the terrorist attacks on their countries as anything but self defense. Only the "insurgents" are violent, the people attacking them are "defenders of freedom".
Secular Humanism is the enemy. They fear a Godless world, not the God of the Christians.
Fundamentalist Islam along with fundamentalist Jews and fundamentalist Christians (like Jerry Falwell) are fighting secular humanism. They saw the world losing touch with God and all three of them rebelled. With the fall of the Iranian Shah, fundamentalism saw a chance to win the fight over the Godless society they saw taking over and destroying what they believed to be a doomed society.
All three have fought and continue to fight their battles in their own ways over the land that they felt belonged to them.
The split between the two factions of Muslims is reminiscent of the Protestants fighting the Catholics. There is nothing new going on with Islam, they are fighting the same battle as anyone else but we don't recognise the terrorist attacks on their countries as anything but self defense. Only the "insurgents" are violent, the people attacking them are "defenders of freedom".
Secular Humanism is the enemy. They fear a Godless world, not the God of the Christians.
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
I'd like to ask any Christian in this debate if and/or how they can support the army when Christ said to turn the other cheek to your enemy.
Specifically, Jester, imo you place yourself as a Christian fundamentalist just as hungry for blood as anyone else when you claim to be Christian but support killing anyone.
Specifically, Jester, imo you place yourself as a Christian fundamentalist just as hungry for blood as anyone else when you claim to be Christian but support killing anyone.
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Jester;741555 wrote: Interesting point Koan, 'taught to fear'. Is that what you think I am doing? I really don't belive we should fear them. Not even the radical forms of Islamists. I think we should embrace them as people, measure them individually as a threat if they are one and deal with them accordingly. My statement stands as before, I am not interested in killing anyone that is peaceful, but I am out to destroy whoelsale anyone who attempts to be violent.
But don't be so quick to make the Leap you made form 'Muhammads violence to todays Terrorists'... there's a whole history of violence in between! And its all based on Islamic philosophy.
No, Jester, I believe that *you* have been taught to fear them and that there is a deliberate process of daemonisation being conducted in order to provide an outside enemy.
Look at the treatment of the Middle East and, specifically, the deliberate destabalisation of the area by western interference. Look at the anti-Islamic statements made by GWB in his "Christian" guise. Look at the bias in reporting by the popular press and it all adds up to a deliberate campaign as vile as the campaign against the Jews a hundred years ago.
Apart from the argument as to what makes a terrorist and what a freedom fighter, can you tell me that you are surprised that, for example, the Iranians are severely pissed off with the west after a continuous attempt to subdue and / or destroy them for the past sixty years.
You complain of the number of terrorist attacks made by Islamists since 9/11 but how would you have reacted if the boot was on the other foot.
Say that the Muslim world had the vastly superior military force and had invaded America and the UK. Then they threatened to invade France on patently trumped up charges with the supreme Caliph making it clear he considered it a religious duty to do so. On top of that, the media in every Muslim country portrayed Christians as little more than animals and portrayed every move you made to defend yourself as "insurgency" and "terrorism".
Would you not fight back with every weapon available to you? Of course you would - and you'd be proud to do so.
But don't be so quick to make the Leap you made form 'Muhammads violence to todays Terrorists'... there's a whole history of violence in between! And its all based on Islamic philosophy.
No, Jester, I believe that *you* have been taught to fear them and that there is a deliberate process of daemonisation being conducted in order to provide an outside enemy.
Look at the treatment of the Middle East and, specifically, the deliberate destabalisation of the area by western interference. Look at the anti-Islamic statements made by GWB in his "Christian" guise. Look at the bias in reporting by the popular press and it all adds up to a deliberate campaign as vile as the campaign against the Jews a hundred years ago.
Apart from the argument as to what makes a terrorist and what a freedom fighter, can you tell me that you are surprised that, for example, the Iranians are severely pissed off with the west after a continuous attempt to subdue and / or destroy them for the past sixty years.
You complain of the number of terrorist attacks made by Islamists since 9/11 but how would you have reacted if the boot was on the other foot.
Say that the Muslim world had the vastly superior military force and had invaded America and the UK. Then they threatened to invade France on patently trumped up charges with the supreme Caliph making it clear he considered it a religious duty to do so. On top of that, the media in every Muslim country portrayed Christians as little more than animals and portrayed every move you made to defend yourself as "insurgency" and "terrorism".
Would you not fight back with every weapon available to you? Of course you would - and you'd be proud to do so.
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
koan;742291 wrote: I'd like to ask any Christian in this debate if and/or how they can support the army when Christ said to turn the other cheek to your enemy.
Specifically, Jester, imo you place yourself as a Christian fundamentalist just as hungry for blood as anyone else when you claim to be Christian but support killing anyone.
No! Intolerance, hatred and a desire to kill was never any part of the Christianity I was brought up with.
Specifically, Jester, imo you place yourself as a Christian fundamentalist just as hungry for blood as anyone else when you claim to be Christian but support killing anyone.
No! Intolerance, hatred and a desire to kill was never any part of the Christianity I was brought up with.
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
If we look at Num. for one we see that the Bible does mandate murder and war crimes. The Holy Qur'an is simply more explicit; retaliate if attacked. In the Bible the Hebrews were simply ordered to attack with no prior provocation.
Jester:-You don't like the comparison but the only way one can attack another's faith is in comparison. You are simply avoiding the issue. All of the great faiths have their extremists nothing more nothing less. All in the extremist factions seek blood in one way or another.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Jester:-You don't like the comparison but the only way one can attack another's faith is in comparison. You are simply avoiding the issue. All of the great faiths have their extremists nothing more nothing less. All in the extremist factions seek blood in one way or another.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Bryn Mawr:-6
Some excellent posts.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Some excellent posts.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Jester;742372 wrote: I'll get to your previous post when I return home this evening, sorry to delay it but it will take some composing and I dont have the time currently.
The question is am I hungry for blood? Good question btw. and it would appear that I am in this debate and where Ive posted in other places on this forum but in reality I am not. I do so reluctantly pursue bodily harm out of my sense of protection and survivial, probably just as much as the current living Islamist does. Therin lays the problem. The Islamist pursues blood becasue his religion mandates it. I pursue blood not because my beliefs mandate it but because Ive been attacked enough by thier religion/philosophy that I am forced now out of survival to move into my own human understandnig and defend myself and my way of life before its too late to do so.
You goad me somewhat here, you know that I struggle with this issue of pascivity versus defending myself, my family, my land and people.
The instance where Jesus states to turn the other cheek it is an instance when some one strikes me with thier fist. Ive taken quit a few hits in my time just to prove this point and offered the other side, if they strike that one and quit all is well, if the rise up to strike me a third time I have no other cheek to offer them. All bets are off and my hit will be equal to or harder than they have ever been hit.
You confuse a fight with the intent to kill, an argument that leads to fists is not a mandated faction designed to kill you. Jesus mandate of turning the other cheek was not a teaching that included self defense. If you don't think so then read the prophetical statements of the book of The Revelation. When he returns there will be war and he will fight.
Blood thirsty? I often wonder if I am blood thirsty or if I am just very thorough.
I'm not goading I'm simply showing you that people all over struggle with the same issues. Your dilemma and your justification of your actions are exactly the same as the religion you are decrying. They are just like you. Only difference is that you only know your experience and are unwilling to grant them the same human qualities as yourself.
You've been shown that the bible contains passages which can be construed to make Christians look like tyrants and warmongers and you pass that off as misunderstanding yet are so sure that the same misconstructions told about Islam are not misunderstandings.
You are my friend. I have a lot of respect for you. Why? Most of what you believe is completely opposite to my world view. We argue vehemently and passionately about many serious issues and we both feel the other's point of view is a threat to peaceful society. The only reason we don't hate each other is that we have seen each other as people. All I ask is that you give your "enemies" the same benefit of a doubt you gave me.
"They" have killed innocent people but many innocent people that they love have been killed as well. The only way to stop the killing is to stop killing.
The question is am I hungry for blood? Good question btw. and it would appear that I am in this debate and where Ive posted in other places on this forum but in reality I am not. I do so reluctantly pursue bodily harm out of my sense of protection and survivial, probably just as much as the current living Islamist does. Therin lays the problem. The Islamist pursues blood becasue his religion mandates it. I pursue blood not because my beliefs mandate it but because Ive been attacked enough by thier religion/philosophy that I am forced now out of survival to move into my own human understandnig and defend myself and my way of life before its too late to do so.
You goad me somewhat here, you know that I struggle with this issue of pascivity versus defending myself, my family, my land and people.
The instance where Jesus states to turn the other cheek it is an instance when some one strikes me with thier fist. Ive taken quit a few hits in my time just to prove this point and offered the other side, if they strike that one and quit all is well, if the rise up to strike me a third time I have no other cheek to offer them. All bets are off and my hit will be equal to or harder than they have ever been hit.
You confuse a fight with the intent to kill, an argument that leads to fists is not a mandated faction designed to kill you. Jesus mandate of turning the other cheek was not a teaching that included self defense. If you don't think so then read the prophetical statements of the book of The Revelation. When he returns there will be war and he will fight.
Blood thirsty? I often wonder if I am blood thirsty or if I am just very thorough.
I'm not goading I'm simply showing you that people all over struggle with the same issues. Your dilemma and your justification of your actions are exactly the same as the religion you are decrying. They are just like you. Only difference is that you only know your experience and are unwilling to grant them the same human qualities as yourself.
You've been shown that the bible contains passages which can be construed to make Christians look like tyrants and warmongers and you pass that off as misunderstanding yet are so sure that the same misconstructions told about Islam are not misunderstandings.
You are my friend. I have a lot of respect for you. Why? Most of what you believe is completely opposite to my world view. We argue vehemently and passionately about many serious issues and we both feel the other's point of view is a threat to peaceful society. The only reason we don't hate each other is that we have seen each other as people. All I ask is that you give your "enemies" the same benefit of a doubt you gave me.
"They" have killed innocent people but many innocent people that they love have been killed as well. The only way to stop the killing is to stop killing.
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
koan:-6
Some very good thoughts.
My feelings towards jester are exactly the same as yours.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Some very good thoughts.
My feelings towards jester are exactly the same as yours.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
jester:-6
Those that you call my interpretations are interpretations that I came to upon reading and thinking, using common sense even. Then I start to look at what the scholarly people say and low and behold they are saying the same thing.
"Hogwash" is your opinion and it is not supported by everyone. I could list dozens if not hundreds of people and scholars but I doubt you would be the list bit interested. You are certain you are correct and I am equally as certain you are not in totality. You may have part of the truth as I do. However, the more I learn the more I realize how little any of us really knows or understands.
To put one's self in the position of thinking they have all the answers is to attempt to play God and that is not a good idea.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Those that you call my interpretations are interpretations that I came to upon reading and thinking, using common sense even. Then I start to look at what the scholarly people say and low and behold they are saying the same thing.
"Hogwash" is your opinion and it is not supported by everyone. I could list dozens if not hundreds of people and scholars but I doubt you would be the list bit interested. You are certain you are correct and I am equally as certain you are not in totality. You may have part of the truth as I do. However, the more I learn the more I realize how little any of us really knows or understands.
To put one's self in the position of thinking they have all the answers is to attempt to play God and that is not a good idea.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
I watched an interesting program on CBS last evening. It was called "In God's Name", and dealt with issues of things that were done in God's name.
Folks from many faiths were interviewed and all spoke of "The Almighty". I think one of the interesting things was that more than a dozen Muslim leaders were interviewed. All spoke of Islam being a religion of peace and that those who were terrorists were not in any way representing Islam.
Now to add to that they interviewed a Muslim leader in Lebanon. He spoke of an attempt on his life by the US secret service. They tried to assassinate him with a car bomb. He was not killed but among the many who were were some 81 children. The US then wonders why it is attacked. The US would do exactly the same thing. In fact it has.
I am reminded of a comment attributed to Jesus. Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Folks from many faiths were interviewed and all spoke of "The Almighty". I think one of the interesting things was that more than a dozen Muslim leaders were interviewed. All spoke of Islam being a religion of peace and that those who were terrorists were not in any way representing Islam.
Now to add to that they interviewed a Muslim leader in Lebanon. He spoke of an attempt on his life by the US secret service. They tried to assassinate him with a car bomb. He was not killed but among the many who were were some 81 children. The US then wonders why it is attacked. The US would do exactly the same thing. In fact it has.
I am reminded of a comment attributed to Jesus. Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
jester:-6
A lie???
Shalom
Ted:-6
A lie???
Shalom
Ted:-6
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Jester;746269 wrote: Total out an out lie. Don't belive everything you hear on TV.
I am totally stunned by how quickly people will believe anything said against the U.S. without even attempting to view it objectively. For the CIA to take out a religious leader not involved in enemy operations would be so risky it is unthinkable, not to mention it would be pointless.
I am totally stunned by how quickly people will believe anything said against the U.S. without even attempting to view it objectively. For the CIA to take out a religious leader not involved in enemy operations would be so risky it is unthinkable, not to mention it would be pointless.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Unfortunately whenever it is a comment that shows America in a bad light it is automatically a lie or it is false. The fact is I never know if the American government is telling the truth. The history does not instill any degree of comfort. Perhaps those children were only collateral damage.
How are we to believe a government that lied about the Viet Nam war--Daniel Ellsberg. Then there is the lies about WMD in Iraq. We see a country that does not see itself above its secret service interfering in foreign nations such as Cuba, the Philippines ie Marcos, or in the nations of Central America or Chile. Then we have to consider who put the Taliban or Saddam in power. I could go on but that should suffice.
This is not to say that other countries do not but it does show that the US is not above covert action whenever it suits their economic or political purpose.
It is all about imperialism. This is exactly what Jesus was opposed to; one nation trying to impose its will on others.
Clint, don't be stunned by the comments. I do not know how accurate that is but I doubt the accuracy of American reporting as well. The US itself seems to have a problem with the truth at times, many times. This says nothing about the American record on human rights.
Shalom,
Ted:-6
How are we to believe a government that lied about the Viet Nam war--Daniel Ellsberg. Then there is the lies about WMD in Iraq. We see a country that does not see itself above its secret service interfering in foreign nations such as Cuba, the Philippines ie Marcos, or in the nations of Central America or Chile. Then we have to consider who put the Taliban or Saddam in power. I could go on but that should suffice.
This is not to say that other countries do not but it does show that the US is not above covert action whenever it suits their economic or political purpose.
It is all about imperialism. This is exactly what Jesus was opposed to; one nation trying to impose its will on others.
Clint, don't be stunned by the comments. I do not know how accurate that is but I doubt the accuracy of American reporting as well. The US itself seems to have a problem with the truth at times, many times. This says nothing about the American record on human rights.
Shalom,
Ted:-6
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Ted;746314 wrote: Unfortunately whenever it is a comment that shows America in a bad light it is automatically a lie or it is false. The fact is I never know if the American government is telling the truth. The history does not instill any degree of comfort.
How are we to believe a government that lied about the Viet Nam war--Daniel Ellsberg. Then there is the lies about WMD in Iraq. We see a country that does not see itself above its secret service interfering in foreign nations such as Cuba, the Philippines ie Marcos, or in the nations of Central America or Chile. Then we have to consider who put the Taliban or Saddam in power. I could go on but that should suffice.
This is not to say that other countries do not but it does show that the US is not above covert action whenever it suits their economic or political purpose.
It is all about imperialism. This is exactly what Jesus was opposed to; one nation trying to impose its will on others.
Clint, don't be stunned by the comments. I do not know how accurate that is but I doubt the accuracy of American reporting as well. The US itself seems to have a problem with the truth at times, many times. This says nothing about the American record on human rights.
Shalom,
Ted:-6
And Canadian journalists never tell a lie. :yh_rotfl
How are we to believe a government that lied about the Viet Nam war--Daniel Ellsberg. Then there is the lies about WMD in Iraq. We see a country that does not see itself above its secret service interfering in foreign nations such as Cuba, the Philippines ie Marcos, or in the nations of Central America or Chile. Then we have to consider who put the Taliban or Saddam in power. I could go on but that should suffice.
This is not to say that other countries do not but it does show that the US is not above covert action whenever it suits their economic or political purpose.
It is all about imperialism. This is exactly what Jesus was opposed to; one nation trying to impose its will on others.
Clint, don't be stunned by the comments. I do not know how accurate that is but I doubt the accuracy of American reporting as well. The US itself seems to have a problem with the truth at times, many times. This says nothing about the American record on human rights.
Shalom,
Ted:-6
And Canadian journalists never tell a lie. :yh_rotfl
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Clint:-6
I'm not talking about journalists. Frankly I don't trust politicians at all even Canadian ones. They tell the truth only when it is convenient.
A good example the exposure of both Canadian troops as US troops to the first atomic explosions just to see what would happen. They were not told there was any danger.
Canada allowed an American psychiatrist into Montreal to experiment on mentally ill people without their knowledge or consent on the knowledge and consent of their powers of attorney. And we worry about the likes of Mengela!
Imperialism is evil.
But it is interesting that many of the issues I mentioned are totally ignored.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I'm not talking about journalists. Frankly I don't trust politicians at all even Canadian ones. They tell the truth only when it is convenient.
A good example the exposure of both Canadian troops as US troops to the first atomic explosions just to see what would happen. They were not told there was any danger.
Canada allowed an American psychiatrist into Montreal to experiment on mentally ill people without their knowledge or consent on the knowledge and consent of their powers of attorney. And we worry about the likes of Mengela!
Imperialism is evil.
But it is interesting that many of the issues I mentioned are totally ignored.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Ted;746318 wrote: Clint:-6
I'm not talking about journalists. Frankly I don't trust politicians at all even Canadian ones. They tell the truth only when it is convenient.
A good example the exposure of both Canadian troops as US troops to the first atomic explosions just to see what would happen. They were not told there was any danger.
Canada allowed an American psychiatrist into Montreal to experiment on mentally ill people without their knowledge or consent on the knowledge and consent of their powers of attorney. And we worry about the likes of Mengela!
Imperialism is evil.
But it is interesting that many of the issues I mentioned are totally ignored.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Point well taken. Since I'm neither Jester or Koan I'm going to back out of here and hope they can pick up where they were.
I'm not talking about journalists. Frankly I don't trust politicians at all even Canadian ones. They tell the truth only when it is convenient.
A good example the exposure of both Canadian troops as US troops to the first atomic explosions just to see what would happen. They were not told there was any danger.
Canada allowed an American psychiatrist into Montreal to experiment on mentally ill people without their knowledge or consent on the knowledge and consent of their powers of attorney. And we worry about the likes of Mengela!
Imperialism is evil.
But it is interesting that many of the issues I mentioned are totally ignored.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Point well taken. Since I'm neither Jester or Koan I'm going to back out of here and hope they can pick up where they were.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Clint:-6
May the peace of Christ be with you.
Shalom
Ted:-6
May the peace of Christ be with you.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
My 2 cents worth here:
Quran 4:89
They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
From : Islam: A religion of peace?
"Muslims must present non-Muslims with the three choices of Sura 9:29 of the [Quran]: conversion, submission with second-class status under Islamic rule, or death." (sounds pretty tolerant eh?)
This is a deeply rooted tradition in Islam. Islam is unique among religions in having a developed doctrine theology in law that mandates violence against non-believers. Not all Muslims take it seriously, but the radicals do, and they are working to recruit and motivate terrorists.
So ... whenever anybody says we want to institute Sharia Islamic law in a country, they mean these laws. They do not provide for the equality of rights and dignity of non-Muslims in a Muslim society ... [but] mandate just the opposite – that non-Muslims are not to be given equality of rights, but denied various jobs because they're not allowed to hold authority over Muslims.
They must pay a special tax called the jizya, which is referred to in the verse you mentioned ... Their humiliation and inferior status is enforced with numerous other regulations, still part of Islamic law, and liable to be enforced by radical Muslims and who want to gain power and institute Islamic law ... Anybody who is concerned about human rights would be resisting and be happy to join in the War on Terror.
The only Koran that really matters is what's in Arabic, because as far as traditional Islamic theology goes, Allah ... was speaking to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel, and the language is intrinsic, can't be separated from the message. The fact is that what's in Arabic is very clear ... but in two opposite directions. What you have are very many verses of peace and tolerance, and also very many verses sanctioning and mandating violence against non-believers ...
Quran 9:123
O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).
Quran 4:89
They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
From : Islam: A religion of peace?
"Muslims must present non-Muslims with the three choices of Sura 9:29 of the [Quran]: conversion, submission with second-class status under Islamic rule, or death." (sounds pretty tolerant eh?)
This is a deeply rooted tradition in Islam. Islam is unique among religions in having a developed doctrine theology in law that mandates violence against non-believers. Not all Muslims take it seriously, but the radicals do, and they are working to recruit and motivate terrorists.
So ... whenever anybody says we want to institute Sharia Islamic law in a country, they mean these laws. They do not provide for the equality of rights and dignity of non-Muslims in a Muslim society ... [but] mandate just the opposite – that non-Muslims are not to be given equality of rights, but denied various jobs because they're not allowed to hold authority over Muslims.
They must pay a special tax called the jizya, which is referred to in the verse you mentioned ... Their humiliation and inferior status is enforced with numerous other regulations, still part of Islamic law, and liable to be enforced by radical Muslims and who want to gain power and institute Islamic law ... Anybody who is concerned about human rights would be resisting and be happy to join in the War on Terror.
The only Koran that really matters is what's in Arabic, because as far as traditional Islamic theology goes, Allah ... was speaking to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel, and the language is intrinsic, can't be separated from the message. The fact is that what's in Arabic is very clear ... but in two opposite directions. What you have are very many verses of peace and tolerance, and also very many verses sanctioning and mandating violence against non-believers ...
Quran 9:123
O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Jester;746269 wrote: Total out an out lie. Don't belive everything you hear on TV.
Despite the many, many times the US has been documented using exactly these tactics? I fear you cannot dismiss it so quickly without even knowing which incident is being referred to.
This is one of the main reasons why the US will not recognise the International Court.
Despite the many, many times the US has been documented using exactly these tactics? I fear you cannot dismiss it so quickly without even knowing which incident is being referred to.
This is one of the main reasons why the US will not recognise the International Court.
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Clint;746316 wrote: And Canadian journalists never tell a lie. :yh_rotfl
Might I ask how the probity or otherwise of the Canadian media has any bearing on the examples of US governmental lying about covert operations?
It's an easy shot to divert attention, nothing more.
Might I ask how the probity or otherwise of the Canadian media has any bearing on the examples of US governmental lying about covert operations?
It's an easy shot to divert attention, nothing more.
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
I find this a very loving religion!!!!!! Do you?
Here is just a sample of Mohammad’s revelations:
Everything Those Infidels Have Everywhere In the World Already Belongs to the Muslims, Take It
Qur’an 33.27 And He made you heirs to their land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things.
Qur’an 21:44 Do they see Us advancing, gradually reducing the land (in their control), curtailing its borders on all sides? It is they who will be overcome.
About Those Annoying Non-Believers (Infidels, Pagans, Jews, Christians, etc.)
Qur’an 8:12 cp. 8:60 “Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelieversâ€; “smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off themâ€
Qur’an 2:191 “...kill the disbelievers wherever we find themâ€
Qur’an 9.33 He it is Who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions.
Qur’an 2:193 “And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allahâ€
Qur’an 8:71 And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM
Qur’an 8:55 Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve.
Qur’an 22:19-22 “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem†“for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rodsâ€
Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.â€
Qur’an 8:58 “If you apprehend treachery from any group on the part of a people (with whom you have a treaty), retaliate by breaking off (relations) with them. The infidels should not think they can bypass (Islamic law or the punishment of Allah). Surely they cannot escape.â€
Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’â€
Qur’an 8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.â€
Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah’s enemy.â€
Qur’an 8:60 “Prepare against them (non-Muslims) whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah (non-Muslims), and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah’s Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you.â€
Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’â€
Qur’an 4:101 “The unbelievers (non-Muslims) are your inveterate foe.â€
Qur’an 9.29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
Qur’an 9.30 And the Jews say: Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
Qur’an 47:4 “Strike off the heads of the disbelieversâ€; and after making a “wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives.â€
Hadith Sahih Muslim (41:6981) Ibn ‘Umar reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying:
You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me); kill him.
Jihad, Jihad and more Jihad
Qur’an 47:4 So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.
Qur’an 21:44 Do they not see Us advancing, gradually reducing the land (in their control), curtailing its borders on all sides? It is they who will be overcome.
Qur’an 47.35 And be not slack so as to cry for peace and you have the upper hand, and Allah is with you, and He will not bring your deeds to naught.
Bukhari:V4B53N412 “Allah’s Apostle said on the day of the conquest of Mecca, ‘There is no migration now, only Jihad, holy battle. And when you are called for Jihad, you should come out at once.’â€
Here is just a sample of Mohammad’s revelations:
Everything Those Infidels Have Everywhere In the World Already Belongs to the Muslims, Take It
Qur’an 33.27 And He made you heirs to their land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things.
Qur’an 21:44 Do they see Us advancing, gradually reducing the land (in their control), curtailing its borders on all sides? It is they who will be overcome.
About Those Annoying Non-Believers (Infidels, Pagans, Jews, Christians, etc.)
Qur’an 8:12 cp. 8:60 “Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelieversâ€; “smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off themâ€
Qur’an 2:191 “...kill the disbelievers wherever we find themâ€
Qur’an 9.33 He it is Who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions.
Qur’an 2:193 “And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allahâ€
Qur’an 8:71 And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM
Qur’an 8:55 Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve.
Qur’an 22:19-22 “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem†“for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rodsâ€
Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.â€
Qur’an 8:58 “If you apprehend treachery from any group on the part of a people (with whom you have a treaty), retaliate by breaking off (relations) with them. The infidels should not think they can bypass (Islamic law or the punishment of Allah). Surely they cannot escape.â€
Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’â€
Qur’an 8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.â€
Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah’s enemy.â€
Qur’an 8:60 “Prepare against them (non-Muslims) whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah (non-Muslims), and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah’s Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you.â€
Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’â€
Qur’an 4:101 “The unbelievers (non-Muslims) are your inveterate foe.â€
Qur’an 9.29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
Qur’an 9.30 And the Jews say: Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
Qur’an 47:4 “Strike off the heads of the disbelieversâ€; and after making a “wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives.â€
Hadith Sahih Muslim (41:6981) Ibn ‘Umar reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying:
You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me); kill him.
Jihad, Jihad and more Jihad
Qur’an 47:4 So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.
Qur’an 21:44 Do they not see Us advancing, gradually reducing the land (in their control), curtailing its borders on all sides? It is they who will be overcome.
Qur’an 47.35 And be not slack so as to cry for peace and you have the upper hand, and Allah is with you, and He will not bring your deeds to naught.
Bukhari:V4B53N412 “Allah’s Apostle said on the day of the conquest of Mecca, ‘There is no migration now, only Jihad, holy battle. And when you are called for Jihad, you should come out at once.’â€
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
BTS;746552 wrote: I find this a very loving religion!!!!!! Do you?
You keep doing this without ever responding to questions about the massive number of equivalent quotes from the Bible espousing equally intolerant, violent and, apparently, immoral commandments.
In answer to your question, yes, I do find the majority of the Muslims I know to be loving, caring, people - pissed off at the cheep shots being taken at them but just as loving and caring as the majority of Christians I know.
You keep doing this without ever responding to questions about the massive number of equivalent quotes from the Bible espousing equally intolerant, violent and, apparently, immoral commandments.
In answer to your question, yes, I do find the majority of the Muslims I know to be loving, caring, people - pissed off at the cheep shots being taken at them but just as loving and caring as the majority of Christians I know.
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Bryn Mawr;746556 wrote: You keep doing this without ever responding to questions about the massive number of equivalent quotes from the Bible espousing equally intolerant, violent and, apparently, immoral commandments.
In answer to your question, yes, I do find the majority of the Muslims I know to be loving, caring, people - pissed off at the cheep shots being taken at them but just as loving and caring as the majority of Christians I know.
Weird I went back to look for the "massive number of equivalent quotes from the Bible espousing equally intolerant, violent and, apparently, immoral commandments" in this thread and as far as actual Bible quotes I see VERY few compared to the many I found in about a min on the ol googler.........
Want to accept a challenge?
You find as many REAL Bible quotes from the Bible about killing non believers as you can and I will find as many Quran quotes that espouse the same thing and let's see who comes up with the most "massive number of equivalent quotes"
(Can I get odds?:sneaky::sneaky::sneaky:)
In answer to your question, yes, I do find the majority of the Muslims I know to be loving, caring, people - pissed off at the cheep shots being taken at them but just as loving and caring as the majority of Christians I know.
Weird I went back to look for the "massive number of equivalent quotes from the Bible espousing equally intolerant, violent and, apparently, immoral commandments" in this thread and as far as actual Bible quotes I see VERY few compared to the many I found in about a min on the ol googler.........
Want to accept a challenge?
You find as many REAL Bible quotes from the Bible about killing non believers as you can and I will find as many Quran quotes that espouse the same thing and let's see who comes up with the most "massive number of equivalent quotes"
(Can I get odds?:sneaky::sneaky::sneaky:)
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
Bryn Mawr;746556 wrote: .........................
................
In answer to your question, yes, I do find the majority of the Muslims I know to be loving, caring, people - pissed off at the cheep shots being taken at them but just as loving and caring as the majority of Christians I know.
So where is the cheap shot?
Quoting the Quran is a cheap shot?
How is that a cheap shot?
and Why can't one quote their book of beliefs if that is what you are saying?
................
In answer to your question, yes, I do find the majority of the Muslims I know to be loving, caring, people - pissed off at the cheep shots being taken at them but just as loving and caring as the majority of Christians I know.
So where is the cheap shot?
Quoting the Quran is a cheap shot?
How is that a cheap shot?
and Why can't one quote their book of beliefs if that is what you are saying?
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
I've been out of this thread for some time. I have an extremely detailed post that I'm just beginning to construct that I think would be helpful to the discussion. In the meantime... I'd like to change the name of this thread to reflect the wider range of participants and to announce the subject at hand more accurately. Any suggestions?
"Islam - Religion of peace?" with the question mark seems to be a repeating theme.
"Islam - Religion of peace?" with the question mark seems to be a repeating theme.
Islam - Religion Of Peace?
opening to general discussion, the thread formerly called "Jester and Koan"