Is Being Homosexual a choice

littleCJelkton · Post by **littleCJelkton** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:14 pm

I had a discussion on a Facebook who through network convergence posted about her friend who is a homosexual. The subject of is being homosexual a choice or not came up. I am unsure as to how or why it would be viewed as being a hereditary as sexual preference and arousal doesn't happen until around the early teens. Also naturally the idea of having sexual intercourse without the ability to reproduce would be overtime naturally selected out from any species, as those who are born homosexual (if being homosexual is something your born with and not a choice) would not be able to reproduce and die off. I am interested in other views on this matter and would like to hear the logic on how it would be something that can be hereditary. I my self also choose to be heterosexual because of the fact I see a relationship as a more evolved form of the more naturalistic mating process which is used to reproduce which is impossible as in a homosexual relationship

NOTE: I am not interested in hearing the views of it is religiously shunned by this or that religion, or morally wrong. If the thread goes to that is it not of my accord. I am only interested in others opinion on if being homosexual is a choice or something you get born with, and the logic of such opinions.

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:57 pm

I'm bisexual. I don't think I particularly choose either one... especially at the moment lol

I just find myself attracted to a person and am less concerned with what gender they are than who they are. I don't know if I'd call it hereditary. That would imply it is passed down from parents or ancestors. I think it's just a matter of chemical reaction based on what that person's mind is focused on as a turn on.

littleCJelkton · Post by **littleCJelkton** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:05 pm

koan;1339432 wrote: I'm bisexual. I don't think I particularly choose either one... especially at the moment lol

I just find myself attracted to a person and am less concerned with what gender they are than who they are. I don't know if I'd call it hereditary. That would imply it is passed down from parents or ancestors. I think it's just a matter of chemical reaction based on what that person's mind is focused on as a turn on.

is making a choice not also a matter of chemical reactions in the brain based on what a person is focused on?

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:10 pm

littleCJelkton;1339435 wrote: is making a choice not also a matter of chemical reactions in the brain based on what a person is focused on?

there are many parts to the brain yet they can be quite distinct. I don't see someone, consciously assess their merits then feel the physical response. I developed a like for certain personality traits or mannerisms, some which may be based on memories from the past, and get physical responses that my logical brain, try as I might, has a really hard time controlling. So, no, it's not a choice. I've fallen for people that my logical brain was screaming at me over and I still have trouble fighting the urge to follow "my heart" anyway.

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:12 pm

Also, there are many different perspectives on people's own gayness. I don't claim to speak for them all or even for a single other person.

littleCJelkton · Post by **littleCJelkton** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:20 pm

koan;1339436 wrote: there are many parts to the brain yet they can be quite distinct. I don't see someone, consciously assess their merits then feel the physical response. I developed a like for certain personality traits or mannerisms, some which may be based on memories from the past, and get physical responses that my logical brain, try as I might, has a really hard time controlling. So, no, it's not a choice. I've fallen for people that my logical brain was screaming at me over and I still have trouble fighting the urge to follow "my heart" anyway.

I understand a little clearer but I personally dont believe that I make any type of desicion mental, physical, or socialogical with out the brain. When we say our heart it is really the more emotional side of our brain, so even those more animalistic reactions I think are a product of choice be it we choose to supress them with logic or allow our body to act naturally on instinct. Would you agree that only in humans where the heightened thought process of making such a choice(if it is a choice as i choose to believe it is) as to be homosexual is the only way homosexuality can survive, as in any other species the process of natural selection would not allow those who only have sex with the same sex of their speicies to survive as they would not be able to reproduce for obvious reasons.

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:42 pm

littleCJelkton;1339440 wrote: I understand a little clearer but I personally dont believe that I make any type of desicion mental, physical, or socialogical with out the brain. When we say our heart it is really the more emotional side of our brain, so even those more animalistic reactions I think are a product of choice be it we choose to supress them with logic or allow our body to act naturally on instinct. Would you agree that only in humans where the heightened thought process of making such a choice(if it is a choice as i choose to believe it is) as to be homosexual is the only way homosexuality can survive, as in any other species the process of natural selection would not allow those who only have sex with the same sex of their speicies to survive as they would not be able to reproduce for obvious reasons.
First of all, we don't have a need for more people in the world right now so procreation isn't a make or break situation.

Second, I'd like to say that my heart does things without my brain but I don't know that it's true. The brain is connected to pretty much everything. If you stick a needle in the right part of the brain surgery can be performed without anesthetic. Nevertheless, I'm not consciously to blame. But, conscious or not, I have to live with me. Ultimately, gay or not, the point is to learn to live with yourself and be less concerned with justifying it to anyone.

littleCJelkton · Post by **littleCJelkton** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:56 pm

koan;1339441 wrote: First of all, we don't have a need for more people in the world right now so procreation isn't a make or break situation.

Second, I'd like to say that my heart does things without my brain but I don't know that it's true. The brain is connected to pretty much everything. If you stick a needle in the right part of the brain surgery can be performed without anesthetic. Nevertheless, I'm not consciously to blame. But, conscious or not, I have to live with me. Ultimately, gay or not, the point is to learn to live with yourself and be less concerned with justifying it to anyone.

Well thanks for your input it is helpful in trying to uhnderstand what is a very complicated issue, but thats how I see love as a heterosexual is a very complicated issue. Though I believe that due to the ability of humans to make more choices because of 1.) our increased intelligence allowing for poplulation awareness and 2.) The idea of being in love rather than just the instinct of reproducing has allowed us to label the choices we have in who we decide to have a relationship be that a Christian, muslim, black, white, man, woman, gay, straight or bi.

Scrat · Post by **Scrat** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:31 pm

Yes it is a choice. We're born either male or female, period.

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:36 pm

Scrat;1339445 wrote: Yes it is a choice. We're born either male or female, period.

So, tell me, Scrat, what makes people fall in love?

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:48 pm

littleCJelkton;1339425 wrote: I had a discussion on a Facebook who through network convergence posted about her friend who is a homosexual. The subject of is being homosexual a choice or not came up. I am unsure as to how or why it would be viewed as being a hereditary as sexual preference and arousal doesn't happen until around the early teens. Also naturally the idea of having sexual intercourse without the ability to reproduce would be overtime naturally selected out from any species, as those who are born homosexual (if being homosexual is something your born with and not a choice) would not be able to reproduce and die off. I am interested in other views on this matter and would like to hear the logic on how it would be something that can be hereditary. I my self also choose to be heterosexual because of the fact I see a relationship as a more evolved form of the more naturalistic mating process which is used to reproduce which is impossible as in a homosexual relationship

NOTE: I am not interested in hearing the views of it is religiously shunned by this or that religion, or morally wrong. If the thread goes to that is it not of my accord. I am only interested in others opinion on if being homosexual is a choice or something you get born with, and the logic of such opinions.I don't quite think it's appropriate to critic people as if they were caged zoo animals. Quite frankly it's none of anyone's business. Why be interested in something that is not your concern?

Unless of course you're curious...

It's not my personal preference to have a same sex partner but I'd be damned to go around discussing it as if the questions pertained to me, it's utterly inappropriate and invariably condescending

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:07 pm

littleCJelkton;1339442 wrote: 1.) our increased intelligence allowing for poplulation awareness and 2.) The idea of being in love rather than just the instinct of reproducing has allowed us to label the choices we have in who we decide to have a relationship be that a Christian, muslim, black, white, man, woman, gay, straight or bi.

It sounds like you're saying that people have evolved to a point where they can master their instincts. Is that correct?

recovering conservative · Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:08 am

littleCJelkton;1339425 wrote: I had a discussion on a Facebook who through network convergence posted about her friend who is a homosexual. The subject of is being homosexual a choice or not came up. I am unsure as to how or why it would be viewed as being a hereditary as sexual preference and arousal doesn't happen until around the early teens. Also naturally the idea of having sexual intercourse without the ability to reproduce would be overtime naturally selected out from any species, as those who are born homosexual (if being homosexual is something your born with and not a choice) would not be able to reproduce and die off. I am interested in other views on this matter and would like to hear the logic on how it would be something that can be hereditary. I my self also choose to be heterosexual because of the fact I see a relationship as a more evolved form of the more naturalistic mating process which is used to reproduce which is impossible as in a homosexual relationship

The nature vs. nurture debates on other issues, like intelligence, have pretty much been settled -- there's really no sharp division, since gene-expression is guided by environmental factors -- nature and nurture are woven together.

When it comes to sexual preference, it's been mentioned that youngest males who have more than one older brother, have a higher likelihood of being gay than the average -- making hormones a likely cause. The final word on the subject will almost certainly be that sexual preference is affected by genes and environment, but when it comes to men at least....there is almost certainly no conscious choosing done whether you're gay or straight. And don't forget, even if gay men are less likely to have offspring, that doesn't mean that there could not be evolutionary advantages that kept homosexual orientation from being eliminated in the population. People who have no children of their own, often devote a lot of attention to nephews and nieces...and that could provide an evolutionary selection advantage for a society.

And worth adding also that from what I understand.....at least when it comes to men, there is no sharp dividing line between homosexual and heterosexual -- instead, there are those who are strongly heterosexual on one side -- and then a gray area of bisexuals, who vary from primarily hetero with a slight gay attraction to mostly gay, in the middle -- and then a small percentage of men who have no interest in women.

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:18 am

There is also the fringe element of gays who are just disgusted by the opposite sex by reason of abuse, either from a parent or from a previous partner. It's only a fringe element though.

recovering conservative · Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:32 am

koan;1339432 wrote: I'm bisexual. I don't think I particularly choose either one... especially at the moment lol

I just find myself attracted to a person and am less concerned with what gender they are than who they are. I don't know if I'd call it hereditary. That would imply it is passed down from parents or ancestors. I think it's just a matter of chemical reaction based on what that person's mind is focused on as a turn on.

When I started on the previous comment I was going to add that there seem to be a lot of differences in the way sexual orientation works in men, than in women, but then I noticed that you had made the point here! You may be interested to know that a recent study supports the position that female bisexuality is an identity, and not a transitional phase as has often been contended. And it seems to be widely accepted that there are more bisexual women than men; but it's difficult to determine because many women who self-identify as heterosexual, nevertheless have done some things with other women that could be considered gay.

The researchers on sexuality say that they have a harder time studying female sexuality because it's so much more complicated than the way it works in men. For us it's pretty much just a physical reaction to the way she looks. We may add points if we think she has other appealing qualities; and take away points if we don't like her personality -- but getting turned on is pretty much a physical reaction.

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:39 am

Very intriguing. I'm quite fascinated by the differences between men and women. I'm not a big fan of the "we're all the same" philosophy because it simply isn't true.

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:09 am

if we are looking strictly at the natural order of things, bisexual, bispecies is natures way.

Or am I the only one who has noticed that animals will hump anything in the vicinity? That dogs have not become extinct or that we don't see a new breed of leg dogs after the humping I have seen in my lifetime alone, speaks to this fact. Females go into heat and every dog within a mile attempts to get to her. But they are just as content to try and get each other. And they are just as content getting the female human who is in heat.

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:40 am

As for being a choice, IMO the most a person can say is that it is a choice or not for themselves. If a person is saying it was "a choice" for themselves, then they are actually saying they are bisexual, but have managed some restraint on acting on their desires. I suspect that the most vocal opponets of homosexuality have had a very difficult choice, or a losing battle.

littleCJelkton · Post by **littleCJelkton** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:41 am

koan;1339452 wrote: It sounds like you're saying that people have evolved to a point where they can master their instincts. Is that correct?

No i don think have, we have developed a way we can suppress them with (religion, morality, science ecetera). Though I think to often people think they have mastered their instincts. Wouldn't be inevitable for humans to be heterosexual, not homosexual as the instinct to be homosexual would become phased out as it can't be passed on. that is of course is if being homosexual is an instinct.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:51 am

flopstock;1339491 wrote: if we are looking strictly at the natural order of things, bisexual, bispecies is natures way.

Or am I the only one who has noticed that animals will hump anything in the vicinity? That dogs have not become extinct or that we don't see a new breed of leg dogs after the humping I have seen in my lifetime alone, speaks to this fact. Females go into heat and every dog within a mile attempts to get to her. But they are just as content to try and get each other. And they are just as content getting the female human who is in heat.I've read that some evolutionists believe sexual selection is a fall-back or backup to natural selection in order to guarantee reproduction of a species.

littleCJelkton · Post by **littleCJelkton** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:13 am

K.Snyder;1339448 wrote: I don't quite think it's appropriate to critic people as if they were caged zoo animals. Quite frankly it's none of anyone's business. Why be interested in something that is not your concern?

Unless of course you're curious...

It's not my personal preference to have a same sex partner but I'd be damned to go around discussing it as if the questions pertained to me, it's utterly inappropriate and invariably condescending

Well I wouldn't think you Mr. Snyder to remark so, but I am sorry if I had struck a nerve with you. As I said it came up in a discussion on FB on another friends board, but as of course with any site "network convergence" brought the extremes of the woodwork and it was impossible to have a reasonalbe descussion about the matter, but the extreme opinions on both sides (being homosexual is a choice, it is not), and by (homosexuals, heterosexuals, and bisexuals) made me believe it had to be an important issue. As with other issues that bring extremes on here I have seen in religion, politics, ect I have seen logical explaination though there is some extreme trolls, and spammers, more ofthen than not the members of this forum are able to discuss topics reasonably, if not the thread usually does not get replies. Now as for you coming out so defensive to my wanting for Knowledge on the matter I could say makes you defensive of gays which makes curious about homosexuality, but the "your gay, no your gay, no your gay" game is too immature for me to want to play with you right now. I have never said "your a republican" for asking people on this forum who have republican views to explain why.

I am sorry if this thread did the following. If in seeing the extremes of some of those on facebook are different to those on here, and thus making such a topic impossible to discuss reasonably discuss, but in seeing the extreme emotions conveyed on the topic there as making this topic an important issue. I decided to bring the topic here inorder to have a more reasonalble discussion on the matter, if out of that process someone is able to deduce homosexuality again I am sorry for that is not the reason for my posting, and I dont feel that wanting to understand things be them about othe religions, politics or sexualityies make you those things. In fact I would say it is that belief that if you try to understand more about something you dissagree with you become that thing that is one of the causes for the misunderstading of one people to the other democrats/republicans, christians/atheist, muslims/jews, conservatives/lieberals, homosexuals/heterosexuals/bisexuals, hell even males/females.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:44 am

Hmmmmm nurture or nature.

I do believe it's a choice Yes. Reason? hmmmmm. Okay I don't believe we're all that different. Gay or not. Have I made a distinct choice to be hetrosexual? Absolutely !!! I could go out tommorow and get it off with a woman but I choose not too. Yet I have extremely strong feelings toward some women. but to put my head between someones legs and call that sexual intimacy is just icky to me.

Why is this so?

Nature ......middle child no complications at birth , No legacy or history of any gays in the family, No history of efeminite men ......older sister who is gay.

Nurture. .........Two older sisters, one younger and one younger brother. Spent most of my childhood sleeping in the same room as my younger sister. No inclination of experimentation with ehr.

Attended Roman Catholic primary and secondary the latter being an all girls school.

Brought up with a strict roman catholic father. Mother was always present but mostly aloof in the "affectionate" area of things.

Sexually abused by a male relative between the ages of 8 to 13.

All my children are male.

Now with all that information Why am I hetrosexual ?

You guys make your mind up.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:49 am

fuzzywuzzy;1339526 wrote: Hmmmmm nurture or nature.

I do believe it's a choice Yes. Reason? hmmmmm. Okay I don't believe we're all that different. Gay or not. Have I made a distinct choice to be hetrosexual? Absolutely !!! I could go out tommorow and get it off with a woman but I choose not too. Yet I have extremely strong feelings toward some women. but to put my head between someones legs and call that sexual intimacy is just icky to me.Why is this so?

Nature ......middle child no complications at birth , No legacy or history of any gays in the family, No history of efeminite men ......older sister who is gay.

Nurture. .........Two older sisters, one younger and one younger brother. Spent most of my childhood sleeping in the same room as my younger sister. No inclination of experimentation with ehr.

Attended Roman Catholic primary and secondary the latter being an all girls school.

Brought up with a strict roman catholic father. Mother was always present but mostly aloof in the "affectionate" area of things.

Sexually abused by a male relative between the ages of 8 to 13.

All my children are male.

Now with all that information Why am I hetrosexual ?

You guys make your mind up.

I think the bolded part might explain your hetro ness.:sneaky:

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:50 am

fuzzywuzzy;1339526 wrote: Hmmmmm nurture or nature.

I do believe it's a choice Yes. Reason? hmmmmm. Okay I don't believe we're all that different. Gay or not. Have I made a distinct choice to be hetrosexual? Absolutely !!! I could go out tommorow and get it off with a woman but I choose not too. Yet I have extremely strong feelings toward some women. but to put my head between someones legs and call that sexual intimacy is just icky to me.

Why is this so?

Nature ......middle child no complications at birth , No legacy or history of any gays in the family, No history of efeminite men ......older sister who is gay.

Nurture. .........Two older sisters, one younger and one younger brother. Spent most of my childhood sleeping in the same room as my younger sister. No inclination of experimentation with ehr.

Attended Roman Catholic primary and secondary the latter being an all girls school.

Brought up with a strict roman catholic father. Mother was always present but mostly aloof in the "affectionate" area of things.

Sexually abused by a male relative between the ages of 8 to 13.

All my children are male.

Now with all that information Why am I hetrosexual ?

You guys make your mind up.

Okay you're probably wondering what my point is here?

Well turn what I've written around . If I had of said in the first paragraph that I was gay . Wrote all those facts for you to consider and then asked ...Why am I homosexual I bet you'd choose a reason from the facts list.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:55 am

YZGI;1339527 wrote: I think the bolded part might explain your hetro ness.:sneaky:
My strong feelins toward other women is not sexual though ..it's sisterly .

I think you're right there. I have had this conversation with males before ...usually if I'm asked if I'd do a threesome. I always say to them ""When a woman opens her legs what you see is ...OH yeah!!! I want that. But when I see it it's like ....ewwwwhhhh you don't want me to touch that do you?"

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:26 am

I think to say we can choose who we fall in love with gives the conscious mind far too much credit. One of the things that amuses me all day long at work is watching people do impulsive things, ocd things, and all sorts of random acts that spring from their conscious mind being asleep at the wheel.

Our brains are required to translate any sensation or emotion but from what I've witnessed, very few people control it.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:34 am

Teh only time I've seen people not control what their logical mind is telling them all the time is when they've been under the influence of drink or drugs.

But then again I've seen impulse buying.

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:41 am

fuzzywuzzy;1339543 wrote: Teh only time I've seen people not control what their logical mind is telling them all the time is when they've been under the influence of drink or drugs.

But then again I've seen impulse buying.

Australia must be a very orderly place to live then, in comparison.

Or you're all drunk all the time lol

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:49 am

probably the latter. lol

havent you ever heard the excuse from men who've conducted themselves in a homosexual manner say they were drunk a the time? :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:21 am

koan;1339541 wrote: I think to say we can choose who we fall in love with gives the conscious mind far too much credit. One of the things that amuses me all day long at work is watching people do impulsive things, ocd things, and all sorts of random acts that spring from their conscious mind being asleep at the wheel.

Our brains are required to translate any sensation or emotion but from what I've witnessed, very few people control it.Considering the Homo sapien has been around for about 200,000 years and the human brain reached Behavioral modernity approximately 50,000 years ago, this is all still relatively new. We, meaning us, in human evolution are young newbies using this thing. I'd love to be reborn every hundred thousand years or so and track the evolution of humans. My guess is our species will become more familiar and efficient with using the brain as more adaptation's evolve in and out. In the meantime we are a spectacle to observe that at times is fun, frightening and everything in between.

I don't know why some of us are gay and others are not. I suppose its a choice to a certain extent, pure hormonal attraction to another extent with some psychological elements involved. OTOH, it might simply be imprecise gene copying. But there are so many gay people.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:50 pm

littleCJelkton;1339425 wrote: I had a discussion on a Facebook who through network convergence posted about her friend who is a homosexual. The subject of is being homosexual a choice or not came up. I am unsure as to how or why it would be viewed as being a hereditary as sexual preference and arousal doesn't happen until around the early teens. Also naturally the idea of having sexual intercourse without the ability to reproduce would be overtime naturally selected out from any species, as those who are born homosexual (if being homosexual is something your born with and not a choice) would not be able to reproduce and die off. I am interested in other views on this matter and would like to hear the logic on how it would be something that can be hereditary. I my self also choose to be heterosexual because of the fact I see a relationship as a more evolved form of the more naturalistic mating process which is used to reproduce which is impossible as in a homosexual relationship

NOTE: I am not interested in hearing the views of it is religiously shunned by this or that religion, or morally wrong. If the thread goes to that is it not of my accord. I am only interested in others opinion on if being homosexual is a choice or something you get born with, and the logic of such opinions.

The first part of your argument does not hold water as your genome determine factors such as hormone levels and can have a direct effect on how you pass through puberty.

As to the second part of your argument, there was a paper in "Nature" that showed that, whilst males carrying the gene for homosexuality produced, on average, less live offspring, females carrying those same genes we more fertile thus reducing the evolutionary deficit and another which suggests that, in some circumstances, homosexual male partners we the preferred mate at they were less likely to be promiscuous in spreading their seed.

As to it being a choice, the argument over nurture or nature has raged since genetics began and I do not see it stopping anytime soon. As I see it, some homosexuals are that way inclined through genetic factors, other through environmental factors (they were interfered with as children and taught to like it or they were abused by a heterosexual partner later in life) but very few make a concious choice to be exclusively homosexual.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:55 pm

recovering conservative;1339455 wrote: The nature vs. nurture debates on other issues, like intelligence, have pretty much been settled -- there's really no sharp division, since gene-expression is guided by environmental factors -- nature and nurture are woven together.

When it comes to sexual preference, it's been mentioned that youngest males who have more than one older brother, have a higher likelihood of being gay than the average -- making hormones a likely cause. The final word on the subject will almost certainly be that sexual preference is affected by genes and environment, but when it comes to men at least....there is almost certainly no conscious choosing done whether you're gay or straight. And don't forget, even if gay men are less likely to have offspring, that doesn't mean that there could not be evolutionary advantages that kept homosexual orientation from being eliminated in the population. People who have no children of their own, often devote a lot of attention to nephews and nieces...and that could provide an evolutionary selection advantage for a society.

And worth adding also that from what I understand.....at least when it comes to men, there is no sharp dividing line between homosexual and heterosexual -- instead, there are those who are strongly heterosexual on one side -- and then a gray area of bisexuals, who vary from primarily hetero with a slight gay attraction to mostly gay, in the middle -- and then a small percentage of men who have no interest in women.

Why should this be hormonal rather than psychological? Many people become sexually fixated on their siblings and if those siblings are of the same sex .....

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:12 pm

littleCJelkton;1339524 wrote: Well I wouldn't think you Mr. Snyder to remark so, but I am sorry if I had struck a nerve with you. As I said it came up in a discussion on FB on another friends board, but as of course with any site "network convergence" brought the extremes of the woodwork and it was impossible to have a reasonalbe descussion about the matter, but the extreme opinions on both sides (being homosexual is a choice, it is not), and by (homosexuals, heterosexuals, and bisexuals) made me believe it had to be an important issue. As with other issues that bring extremes on here I have seen in religion, politics, ect I have seen logical explaination though there is some extreme trolls, and spammers, more ofthen than not the members of this forum are able to discuss topics reasonably, if not the thread usually does not get replies. Now as for you coming out so defensive to my wanting for Knowledge on the matter I could say makes you defensive of gays which makes curious about homosexuality, but the "your gay, no your gay, no your gay" game is too immature for me to want to play with you right now. I have never said "your a republican" for asking people on this forum who have republican views to explain why.

I am sorry if this thread did the following. If in seeing the extremes of some of those on facebook are different to those on here, and thus making such a topic impossible to discuss reasonably discuss, but in seeing the extreme emotions conveyed on the topic there as making this topic an important issue. I decided to bring the topic here inorder to have a more reasonalble discussion on the matter, if out of that process someone is able to deduce homosexuality again I am sorry for that is not the reason for my posting, and I dont feel that wanting to understand things be them about othe religions, politics or sexualityies make you those things. In fact I would say it is that belief that if you try to understand more about something you dissagree with you become that thing that is one of the causes for the misunderstading of one people to the other democrats/republicans, christians/atheist, muslims/jews, conservatives/lieberals, homosexuals/heterosexuals/bisexuals, hell even males/females.Nah you just use the facebook stint so that if someone were opposed you could skimmer behind it, I'm not stupid.

And the only games I play are sports.

On that, it's condescending to group individuals as different. You've blatantly done as much by asking something that is not your place to understand lest you be gay yourself. It's fundamental logic, the very same logic that the majority of people I've witnessed doesn't know the difference between north and south in a World without a border, it's just stupid

Good luck on your findings

littleCJelkton · Post by **littleCJelkton** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:37 pm

K.Snyder;1339629 wrote: Nah you just use the facebook stint so that if someone were opposed you could skimmer behind it, I'm not stupid.

And the only games I play are sports.

On that, it's condescending to group individuals as different. You've blatantly done as much by asking something that is not your place to understand lest you be gay yourself. It's fundamental logic, the very same logic that the majority of people I've witnessed doesn't know the difference between north and south in a World without a border, it's just stupid

Good luck on your findings

I am sorry, you are so uptight about this, you obviously have very strong opinions on the matter to respond so harshly where as in anyother post you would be one of the first to respond with logic I am sorry if I struck a cord

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:48 pm

littleCJelkton;1339633 wrote: I am sorry, you are so uptight about this, you obviously have very strong opinions on the matter to respond so harshly where as in anyother post you would be one of the first to respond with logic I am sorry if I struck a cordLet's forget about attempting to gauge one's emotions purely by esp alone ok?

Now, let's break down my argument in this thread so that one of us can be deemed correct, I don't think this is too far from ideal do you? Good

Let's say, hypothetically(I know I Love them too!), that you discovered the divine truth. What then you ask? Well, let's say by divination that people engage in same sex practices because these people know that's who they are genetically. Does this satisfy your curiosity or does this go against what you'd assumed? If this goes against what you'd assumed then wouldn't you owe an apology to all that you'd judged? If you felt you didn't owe this apology then why? Considering, by divination, you were to be wrong then what was it that justified your feeling the need to define these lives that were not your own? If you were right, hypothetically speaking, what then does this entail? If there's not to be an underlying judgement at the end conclusion then what's the worth of your concern personally as to not only why but how other individuals live their lives?

These questions are essential

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:56 pm

I think stories like Brokeback Mountain do a good job of addressing the question. There are countless people who have hidden their "forbidden love" or been killed for it in places and times when it was unacceptable (Texas? :p) but, despite the danger, or the detriment to the quality of their lives, have found themselves unable to break from their attraction.

Really, do we need scientific conclusions? People have died because they couldn't stop loving the "wrong" people. I think out of respect for them we should settle for saying it was beyond the simplicity of choice. There is currently a big campaign to stop young people from killing themselves because they are gay. The more I think about it, the more I dislike handling this question as a matter of intellectual debate. Look at all the dead bodies and try to tell me with a "straight" face that you think they chose to be gay.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:04 pm

koan;1339636 wrote: The more I think about it, the more I dislike handling this question as a matter of intellectual debate. Look at all the dead bodies and try to tell me with a "straight" face that you think they chose to be gay.

"Why does it matter as to why one is gay" is the question. This addresses yours by the mere fact that these kids kill themselves because it's not accepted by the loudest, which is irrelevant considering that questions asked to "understand" it is the precursor for ridicule and judgement that ends in these kids feeling alienated by the mere "curiosity", it's stupid, redundant, unthoughtful, and invariably wrong to even ask it

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:04 pm

K.Snyder;1339639 wrote: "Why does it matter as to why one is gay" is the question. This addresses yours by the mere fact that these kids kill themselves because it's not accepted by the loudest, which is irrelevant considering that questions asked to "understand" it is the precursor for ridicule and judgement that ends in these kids feeling alienated by the mere "curiosity", it's stupid, redundant, unthoughtful, and invariably wrong to even ask it

Sorry,..

there for a minute I was speaking English

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:18 pm

K.Snyder;1339639 wrote: "Why does it matter as to why one is gay" is the question. This addresses yours by the mere fact that these kids kill themselves because it's not accepted by the loudest, which is irrelevant considering that questions asked to "understand" it is the precursor for ridicule and judgement that ends in these kids feeling alienated by the mere "curiosity", it's stupid, redundant, unthoughtful, and invariably wrong to even ask it
It matters because people want to know in order to help them digest the existence of gay people. If they found a satisfactory answer it may help them accept it better.

For some reason, if a person has a choice then it's okay to hate them. If they can't help the way they are then there is more room for forgiveness. So, if we can find an answer that helps gay people not kill themselves, I think it's worth having the discussion.

recovering conservative · Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:29 pm

Bryn Mawr;1339612 wrote: Why should this be hormonal rather than psychological? Many people become sexually fixated on their siblings and if those siblings are of the same sex .....

I'm not sure what that 'sexual fixation on siblings' is all about; I don't think I read about that before. The problem with any theory that conscious behaviour or choices play a determining role in sexual orientation, is that the evidence indicates that sexual orientation seems to be already set by the time we reach puberty, even if it takes several years afterward before someone can be sure if they are gay, straight, or bisexual. Taking a quick look at biological and environmental theories about sexual preference, I notice that the wikipedia articles place gender non-conformity (which seems to be a significant marker of becoming gay later on) under the category of environmental theories, even though that non-conformity may be based on very physical factors. Biology and sexual orientation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Environment and sexual orientation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the long run, I don't think it should matter whether or not there is any conscious choosing being done regarding sexual orientation. It seems like younger generations coming up are finally taking the sensible approach on this issue, and allowing people to decide what's best for them....whether it's living as gay, straight or bisexual. People should be allowed to choose the life that will be best for them, and not face persecution, restrictions, or denial of rights because of that choice.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:31 am

koan;1339643 wrote: It matters because people want to know in order to help them digest the existence of gay people. If they found a satisfactory answer it may help them accept it better.

For some reason, if a person has a choice then it's okay to hate them. If they can't help the way they are then there is more room for forgiveness. So, if we can find an answer that helps gay people not kill themselves, I think it's worth having the discussion.Fair enough but in order for people to not hate gay people then they need not ask "why?"

CinnamonBear · Post by **CinnamonBear** » Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:50 am

Yes, it's a choice. There is no gay gene.

Briefly stated, choices lead to actions and actions lead to consequences.

Post by **spot** » Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:55 am

CinnamonBear;1339676 wrote: Yes, it's a choice. There is no gay gene.There is, however, the matter of environment. Surely influences on children affect their emotional preference in later life.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:46 am

CinnamonBear;1339676 wrote: Yes, it's a choice. There is no gay gene.

Briefly stated, choices lead to actions and actions lead to consequences.If thats true then there is no straight gene either, would you agree with that?

Post by **LarsMac** » Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:48 am

Ahso!;1339685 wrote: If thats true then there is no straight gene either, would you agree with that?

I would.

Boogalette · Post by **Boogalette** » Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:32 am

To the `straight`people who feel being homosexual is a choice, at what point in your life did you choose to be heterosexual?

Post by **LarsMac** » Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:34 am

Boogalette;1339703 wrote: so to those who feel being homosexual is a choice, at what point in your life did you choose to be heterosexual?

around 19 or 20

Post by **spot** » Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:43 am

Neither of these chaps sound as though they took a deliberate conscious decision regarding their sexuality: BBC News - Stopped from serving for being gay

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:32 am

CinnamonBear;1339676 wrote: Yes, it's a choice. There is no gay gene.

Briefly stated, choices lead to actions and actions lead to consequences.

Out of curiosity, you evidence for that statement?

M.A.S · Post by **M.A.S** » Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:49 pm

CinnamonBear;1339676 wrote: Yes, it's a choice. There is no gay gene.

Briefly stated, choices lead to actions and actions lead to consequences.

I don't really have medical experience in genes and these stuff but I think that being home is a choice"bad choice indeed:p" UNLESS that person is having both men stuff and women stuff in his/ her body.

since you're westerners and you've different culture that I do, do you really respect homosexual people? If the answer is 'Yes' then why it's so interesting to argue about homos.