Terrorism = Israel

[cherandbuster]

I think it's really interesting that so many have read this thread but none have replied.

I would venture that that is a response in itself.

[anastrophe]

the jews paid a terrible cost for non-violence in world war II. they learned that it didn't work. non-violence is bankrupt as an ideology in my opinion. by all means, i support any means to resolution that is non-violent - absolutely, positively. but maintaining that non-violence is the only correct path is a choice one may impose only on oneself. insisting that others must follow that path is an affront to individual freedom.



yes, the jews took the land. it's not like there's not thousands of years of history behind the conflicts there. the land had been taken from them before. and others still had had the land taken from them.



one of the minor contributing factors is that that land holds the most sacred locations for three of the worlds major religions.



minor, minor.



:yh_silly

[BabyRider]

cherandbuster wrote: I think it's really interesting that so many have read this thread but none have replied.



I would venture that that is a response in itself.
That's because we're all still reading it!!!



*And the award for longest post ever in FG, goes to...............SCRAT!!!!* :yh_party :yh_dance



(Sorry, Scrat. I couldn't resist...we now return you to your regulary scheduled programming....)

[anastrophe]

then there's folks like me who stopped reading a few paragraphs in, when it was clear that only one side of the story was to be presented..

[OpenMind]

anastrophe wrote: then there's folks like me who stopped reading a few paragraphs in, when it was clear that only one side of the story was to be presented..


The UN's.

[anastrophe]

OpenMind wrote: The UN's.


reread the introductory paragraph. the report is confined specifically to jewish terrorist groups and activities. it specifically excludes any and all reference to the activities of other groups that might - just might - have taken place contemporaneously, and might - just might - have had an influence on those activities.



i mean, if we are to play this game of x nation equals terrorists - which certainly i played a leading role in starting, then let's get it all out there:



Terrorism = America

Terrorism = UK

Terrorism = Israel

Terrorism = North Korea

Terrorism = France

Terrorism = Rwanda

Terrorism = Canada

Terrorism = Haiti

Terrorism = Germany

Terrorism = Japan

Terrorism = Sri Lanka

Terrorism = Pakistan

Terrorism = Syria

Terrorism = French Guiana

Terrorism = Nicaragua

Terrorism = Serbia

Terrorism = Mexico



shall i go on? shall i continue pummelling with a two by four?

[OpenMind]

Terrorism = French Resistance.

[woppy71]

Violence is wrong.

I believe that each and every country in the world has a less than perfect past, or has skeletons in the cupboard.

It just saddens me that the human race in general has a predisposition to self destructing. We really do have to learn how to get along without resorting to violence and hatred.

[Issie]

woppy71 wrote: Violence is wrong.

I believe that each and every country in the world has a less than perfect past, or has skeletons in the cupboard.

It just saddens me that the human race in general has a predisposition to self destructing. We really do have to learn how to get along without resorting to violence and hatred.


Well said :yh_wink and some of us must learn to stop being in denial.

[Daniyal]

anastrophe;349144 wrote: the jews paid a terrible cost for non-violence in world war II. they learned that it didn't work. non-violence is bankrupt as an ideology in my opinion. by all means, i support any means to resolution that is non-violent - absolutely, positively. but maintaining that non-violence is the only correct path is a choice one may impose only on oneself. insisting that others must follow that path is an affront to individual freedom.



yes, the jews took the land. it's not like there's not thousands of years of history behind the conflicts there. the land had been taken from them before. and others still had had the land taken from them.



one of the minor contributing factors is that that land holds the most sacred locations for three of the worlds major religions.



minor, minor.



:yh_silly




How much are you geting pay to trun a blind eye to what's really happening ?

[Oscar Namechange]

Issie;349516 wrote: Well said :yh_wink and some of us must learn to stop being in denial.


Denial is not an Egyptian river you know.

If you open your eyes you will see that Britain has done nothing but try to bring peace to the ME.

Look to the country that has funded the Israeli military since 1978. You will find your answer there.

[Daniyal]

oscar;1137150 wrote: Denial is not an Egyptian river you know.

If you open your eyes you will see that Britain has done nothing but try to bring peace to the ME.

Look to the country that has funded the Israeli military since 1978. You will find your answer there.




your deep

[Daniyal]

Israel has seized 425 acres of Palestinian land in the occupied West Bank in order to build 2,500 new homes as part of a major expansion of the Efrat settlement. This settlement is particularly sensitive given that it would help complete a ring of hilltop settlements in Efrat that threaten to cut Arab East Jerusalem off from the West Bank and undermine prospects that East Jerusalem could serve as the capital of a Palestinian state.

British Lawmakers Accuse Israel of Committing War Crimes

Meanwhile, a team of British lawmakers arrived in Gaza on Monday to conduct a fact-finding visit following Israel’s twenty-two-day attack on Gaza.

British MP Edward Davey: “I think we need to get a clear message to the Israeli government, whoever it turns out to be: this sort of thing is just unacceptable. There has to be an international investigation into this, because it seems to me that war crimes have been committed.”



Democracy Now.org

[Oscar Namechange]

Daniyal;1137724 wrote: Israel has seized 425 acres of Palestinian land in the occupied West Bank in order to build 2,500 new homes as part of a major expansion of the Efrat settlement. This settlement is particularly sensitive given that it would help complete a ring of hilltop settlements in Efrat that threaten to cut Arab East Jerusalem off from the West Bank and undermine prospects that East Jerusalem could serve as the capital of a Palestinian state.

British Lawmakers Accuse Israel of Committing War Crimes

Meanwhile, a team of British lawmakers arrived in Gaza on Monday to conduct a fact-finding visit following Israel’s twenty-two-day attack on Gaza.

British MP Edward Davey: “I think we need to get a clear message to the Israeli government, whoever it turns out to be: this sort of thing is just unacceptable. There has to be an international investigation into this, because it seems to me that war crimes have been committed.”

Democracy Now.org


Good post Danny. Let that also apply to the Administrations who supplied the military hardware to commit genocide.

[Daniyal]

oscar;1137937 wrote: Good post Danny. Let that also apply to the Administrations who supplied the military hardware to commit genocide.








Tawuhaaaaaaaaaaaaat

[Oscar Namechange]

Scrat;1138622 wrote: I read about those new development plans, same old game they have always been playing. I wonder when the Palastinians in the WB are going to figure out that the same fate awaits all of them. I wouldn't doubt a lot of them already know, its just that the people who represent them are already paid for?


Nothing changes Scrat. It appears even Obama who pledged to dis-inherit the Bush legacy will not de-nounce Israel.

I myself, don't believe he ever will and will continue to fund the Israeli machinery.

[Daniyal]

Amnesty International is urging the UN Security Council to impose an immediate arms embargo on Israel, Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups. Amnesty said it’s found evidence that Israel and Hamas had committed war crimes and used weapons supplied from overseas to carry out attacks on civilians during Israel’s three-week attack on Gaza. Meanwhile, Kevin Cahill, a top humanitarian official at the UN, says he is shocked by the current conditions inside Gaza following the Israeli attack.



Democracy Now.org

[Bryn Mawr]

anastrophe;349144 wrote: the jews paid a terrible cost for non-violence in world war II. they learned that it didn't work. non-violence is bankrupt as an ideology in my opinion. by all means, i support any means to resolution that is non-violent - absolutely, positively. but maintaining that non-violence is the only correct path is a choice one may impose only on oneself. insisting that others must follow that path is an affront to individual freedom.



yes, the jews took the land. it's not like there's not thousands of years of history behind the conflicts there. the land had been taken from them before. and others still had had the land taken from them.



one of the minor contributing factors is that that land holds the most sacred locations for three of the worlds major religions.



minor, minor.



:yh_silly


Care to provide examples of Jewish / Arab conflict in, say, the thousand years before 1900?

[Bryn Mawr]

Daniyal;1137139 wrote: How much are you geting pay to trun a blind eye to what's really happening ?


Out of order!

To make a accusation like that you'd better have some good evidence to provide or an apology to give.

[Daniyal]

Bryn Mawr;1143215 wrote: Out of order!

To make a accusation like that you'd better have some good evidence to provide or an apology to give.




What Took You Solong To Come Out Of Your Cave ? Oh By The Way Mind Your Dam Business .

[Bryn Mawr]

Daniyal;1143278 wrote: What Took You Solong To Come Out Of Your Cave ? Oh By The Way Mind Your Dam Business .


Busy - by the way, it is my damn'd business and I repeat, you are out of order.

If you wish to post public allegations against a member on a public discussion forum then you must expect to be challenged on those accusations.

[Daniyal]

Daniyal;1143278 wrote: What Took You Solong To Come Out Of Your Cave ? Oh By The Way Mind Your Dam Business .




[ Ireland's Worst Driver ]



Didn't You Created A Post About that Boy From [ Ireland ] Then Your Trun Around And Kiss His Butt And Say You Were Sorry . And Your Talking About Someone Being Out Of Order . Sound Like Your Talking Out Of Both Side Of You Mouth As Always , But That's Your True Nature Showing Right ...

[Daniyal]

Bryn Mawr;1143289 wrote: Busy - by the way, it is my damn'd business and I repeat, you are out of order.

If you wish to post public allegations against a member on a public discussion forum then you must expect to be challenged on those accusations.


Your No Challenge Your Air Head Trying Start Something , It Up To You To Prove What I Said To Be Wrong . Until Then Stop Talking Out Of The Side Of Your Neck

[Bryn Mawr]

Daniyal;1143303 wrote: Your No Challenge Your Air Head Trying Start Something , It Up To You To Prove What I Said To Be Wrong . Until Then Stop Talking Out Of The Side Of Your Neck


You are the one making the allegation therefore you are the one required to substantiate it.

I'll ignore being called an air head and the rest of you personal attacks as they're immaterial but claiming another member is taking bribes and being paid to voice an opinion is beyond personal, it is insulting and is unacceptable.

[Daniyal]

Bryn Mawr;1143324 wrote: You are the one making the allegation therefore you are the one required to substantiate it.

I'll ignore being called an air head and the rest of you personal attacks as they're immaterial but claiming another member is taking bribes and being paid to voice an opinion is beyond personal, it is insulting and is unacceptable.




What Unacceptable Is You Trying To Get Something Started Here. And You Know It . Like I Said Until You Know What Your Talking About Your Challenge Is Weak .So Take Your Mind Game Some Where Else . :wah::wah::wah:

[Daniyal]

Days After Calling Israeli Blockade of Gaza “A Crime Against Humanity,” UN Human Rights Investigator Richard Falk Detained, Expelled from Israel



The United Nations human rights chief Navi Pillay has accused Israel of “unprecedented and deeply regrettable” treatment of UN human rights investigator Richard Falk. Falk was deported from Israel Monday after being detained at Tel Aviv’s Ben Gurion Airport for twenty hours. Falk’s detention and expulsion came days after he condemned Israel’s blockade of Gaza as a “flagrant and massive violation of international humanitarian law” and “Crime Against Humanity.” We speak to Falk about his detention and expulsion from Israel



Richard Falk, UN special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian Territories. He is professor emeritus of international law at Princeton University and the author of more than fifty books on war, human rights and international law, including Achieving Human Rights; Crimes of War: Iraq, with Irene Gendzier; and Israel-Palestine on Record: How the New York Times Misreports Conflict in the Middle East, with Howard Friel.



AMY GOODMAN: The United Nations human rights chief Navi Pillay accused Israel Tuesday of “unprecedented and deeply regrettable” treatment of UN human rights investigator Richard Falk. Falk was deported from Israel Monday after being detained at Tel Aviv’s Ben Gurion Airport for twenty hours. He was appointed the special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories earlier this year but was denied entry because of what Israel called his “highly politicized views.”



Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesperson Yigal Palmor said Falk “does not try to advance human rights, but instead comes with his conclusions ready and those conclusions are of course extreme methodic criticism of Israel and only of Israel,” he said. Israel’s Foreign Ministry also accused Falk of “legitimizing Hamas terrorism and drawing shameful comparisons to the Holocaust.”



The professor emeritus of international law at Princeton University, Richard Falk, issued a statement last week titled “Gaza: Silence is not an option” that condemned Israel’s blockade of Gaza as a “flagrant and massive violation of international humanitarian law.” He urged the UN to invoke “the agreed norm of a responsibility to protect a civilian population being collectively punished by policies that amount to a Crime Against Humanity." Falk also called for an International Criminal Court investigation of Israeli military and civilian officials for potential prosecution.



Richard Falk is now back at home in California. He joins me now on the telephone.



Welcome to Democracy Now!, Professor Falk. Talk about what happened. When did you try to get into Israel and Gaza?



RICHARD FALK: Amy, it was about three days ago, and I came with a security person and an assistant from Geneva. They had received visas ensuring them entry, which were honored when we arrived at Ben Gurion Airport, and because they received visas and knew that I was coming, we assumed there’d be no problem with my entry, because they had ample indication—in fact, formal notification—of my itinerary. So it remains strange why they didn’t either inform Geneva, where the Human Rights Council and the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights is located, or just deny them visas, which would have been a signal of their intention. So, somehow or other, it appears that they wanted this incident to occur.



And when I arrived, they questioned me first in the passport area and then led me, after long delays, from one place to another until the representative of the Ministry of Interior denied me entry and placed me in this detention facility prior to being expelled on the plane that took me back here to California.



AMY GOODMAN: And in that twenty-hour period, were they questioning you?



RICHARD FALK: No, they didn’t—oddly, again, they didn’t seem particularly interested in either exploring my views or objecting to them or doing anything substantive. They just put me in this detention facility, which is located, I think, on the periphery of the airport area and is a very coercive little experience, because I was in with five other people in a tiny room where there was barely space to stand, and it was—we were locked in this room and treated not terribly, but unpleasantly. I would put it that way. The others were there for technical infractions of immigration law of one reason or another, and most of them were waiting for lawyers. Actually, we had good camaraderie, so that was one of the sort of pleasant aspects of a generally unpleasant experience.



AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about what your plan was in getting into Gaza and your response to the Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesperson, Yigal Palmor, saying that you don’t “try to advance human rights, but instead comes with his conclusions ready and those conclusions are of course extreme methodic criticism of Israel and only of Israel" and the Israel Foreign Ministry also accusing you of “legitimizing Hamas terrorism and drawing shameful comparisons to the Holocaust.”



RICHARD FALK: Well, I think they’re all, first of all, distortions of my real views and, secondly, part of a much wider and what I would regard as insidious pattern of trying to shift the attention from their objections to the person, rather than their argument with the facts that are the basis of mine or other people’s assessment of the situation. I think I could stand very well behind the views that are contained in my report and would gladly engage in any kind of discussion of those views. But Israel has been pursuing what I call a politics of opaqueness, trying to make the realities of the occupation as obscure as possible and as speculative as possible. They’ve kept those who are knowledgeable inside Gaza from leaving to attend international conferences—Raji Sourani, for instance, the head of the Human Rights Centre, who had previously been allowed to attend international conferences and is a distinguished recipient of the Kennedy Center’s Human Rights Award. So they’ve tried to keep people in who know something about the reality of the occupation and then try to keep people out, such as myself, who could report credibly on what is happening inside, and shifting that argument then to my qualifications.



Let me come to these issues that you appropriately raised. First of all, I never compared the reality of what is going on in Gaza to the Holocaust. What I did say was that the kinds of collective punishment that are being imposed on the entire people of Gaza have a resemblance to collective punishment that was imposed by the Nazis in Germany and that if this kind of circumstance is allowed to persist, it could produce a holocaust. I never suggested that what was happening was a holocaust. Same thing with the existence of crimes against humanity. I merely tried to characterize the facts as I understood them to involve this kind of massive collective punishment of every man, woman and child, regardless of their activities, as being victimized by a set of policies summarized as a siege or blockade, where some of the effects are now very well established, such as 46 percent of Gazan children are suffering from acute anemia. Very stark reality. More than 80 percent are living under the level of poverty.



So I return to the main point. I think that my whole life has been devoted, I think, to trying to tell the truth about facts that are often unpleasant, unpleasant for me to address. I really have sought, in relation to the Israel-Palestine conflict, peace and justice for both peoples and have always had that view that it was possible, desirable and necessary. And that’s the basis on which I’ve acted throughout this period as special rapporteur for the UN.



AMY GOODMAN: Professor Falk, the New York Times had a piece called “UN Rights Investigator Expelled by Israel,” not exactly what I would call sympathetic to you. I just wanted to read one quote from that article. It says, Richard Falk “has compared Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians to Nazi atrocities and has called for more serious examination of the conspiracy theories surrounding the Sept. 11 attacks. Pointing to discrepancies between the official version of events and other versions, he recently wrote that ‘only willful ignorance can maintain that the 9/11 narrative should be treated as a closed book.’” Your response?



RICHARD FALK: Yeah. Well, that’s part of this whole effort to shift the focus to me and away from the reality and, at the same time, to somehow paint me as some kind of conspiracy person or theorist, which is absolutely untrue. What is true is that I wrote the forward to the original book of David Griffin, a longtime friend of mine, which is the most prominent challenge to the validity of the official version of 9/11, and I continue to hold the view that the 9/11 Commission did not adequately address the difficult questions about what happened on 9/11 that he raised. But I haven’t ever and do not now endorse any kind of conspiracy theory. All I think that is true is that the American people and the world deserve a fuller and more credible investigation of those events.



AMY GOODMAN: In December of 2006, Israel blocked the South African Archbishop and Nobel laureate Desmond Tutu from investigating the killing of nineteen Palestinians in Gaza. He had a UN mandate to head a fact-finding mission to Gaza, like you did, but Israeli officials failed to grant him the necessary travel visas, saying the mission, quote, “advances a biased anti-Israel agenda.”



ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU: We find the lack of cooperation by the Israeli government very distressing, as well as its failure to allow the mission timely passage to Israel. This is a time in our history that neither allows for indifference to the plight of those suffering nor a refusal to search for a solution to the present crisis in the region.



AMY GOODMAN: I asked the Archbishop, Archbishop Tutu, about this when I interviewed him a few weeks ago.



AMY GOODMAN: You were blocked from going into Gaza in 2006, leading a UN delegation there after the killing of a number of Palestinians.



ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU: Yeah.



AMY GOODMAN: What do you think has to be done now with the Middle East specifically, with Israel and the occupation?



ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU: There’s been some very interesting moves with the outgoing prime minister suggesting that Israel has to consider very seriously the proposal of going back to the boundaries of 1967. That’s a very important initiative, if that was taken.



I think that we would have to move very quickly to lifting the embargo. The suffering is unacceptable. It’s totally unacceptable. It doesn’t promote the security of Israel or any other part of that very volatile region.



AMY GOODMAN: That’s Archbishop Desmond Tutu of South Africa just a few weeks ago here in New York. Of course, it was not only Tutu, not only you, Professor Falk, but news organizations writing a letter of protest to the Israeli prime minister—CNN, BBC, Reuters, New York Times, AP—for not being allowed into Gaza. What are you calling for right now, as you return home having been deported from Israel?



RICHARD FALK: Well, mainly, access for myself. I think my resignation would be giving in to Israel’s unreasonable behavior and, as I say, part of this broader pattern that Archbishop Tutu’s exclusion further confirms.



And, incidentally, I didn’t respond to your question about Hamas. That is an absolutely untrue statement. I’ve condemned the firing of rockets at civilians.



AMY GOODMAN: And, Professor Falk, we just have five seconds, so your final comment?



RICHARD FALK: My final comment is that it’s important for the peace of the region that the facts of this occupation are widely known.



AMY GOODMAN: We leave it there. Thank you for joining us.



Democracy Now.org

[Galbally]

Terrorism=The use of violence and mass intimidation to coerce people into accepting or appeasing political, racial, or religious agendas.

No one has a monopoly on it.

I think most people can accept that the Israeli government behaves very badly in relation to the situation between Palestine and Israel in general. In the long-term if peace is not found, there will only ever be war, and you have to make peace with your enemies, not your friends.

Israel's policies in the West Bank and Gaza are wrong, and ultimately they will not succeed in continuing to thwart the requirement for Palestinians to regain their right to full nationhood by using military coertion against them.

However, I am never going to buy into this anti-Israel hysteria among certain political groups in the West. Its quickly replaced anti-US anti-Bush hysteria among the well-fed chattering classes of Europe, which provides them with some sort of smug self-satisfaction that they are morally superior to those who take a more realistic view of human nature.

If Israel is eventually destroyed or crippled as a nation, that doesn't mean that extremist Islamic groups are going to leave us in the West alone you know, no more than Hitler was finished once he got his little paws on the Sudeatenland, or Austria, or Poland, or the Low Countries, or Russia.

In Pakistan recently, the rapidly dissolving Pakistani government made a deal which has turned over control of parts of the North West territories to the Taleban, who have immeadiately banned female education, any religion other than their extreme form of Islam, and crushed any form of political dissent, via the use of acid, guns, knives, and the rope.

Not one western "human rights" group has marched or even talked about it. Obviously its not an issue to them.

Apparently some people think that appeasing Muslim terrorism and religiously inspired fascism at home and abroad is "enlightened" and shows "cultural sensitivity" to a "differing world view". While criticizing Israel is "brave" and "making a stand for human rights".

My arse it is, its double standards, appeasement and cowardice, we in the West have simply become weak, lazy, and foolish as we have wallowed in our easy money and affluence. We will pay a terrible price for that folly if we don't wake up to what is happening in the world.

Our moral cowardice has made our worldview so jaundiced that apparently in some people's opinion, evil only occurs when Americans, Europeans, or Jews are involved. Lenin called such people in the West who acted as apologists for Soviet tyranny for 50 years "useful idiots". He was not incorrect in that assessment.

[Daniyal]

Galbally;1143402 wrote: Terrorism=The use of violence and mass intimidation to coerce people into accepting or appeasing political, racial, or religious agendas.

No one has a monopoly on it.

I think most people can accept that the Israeli government behaves very badly in relation to the situation between Palestine and Israel in general. In the long-term if peace is not found, there will only ever be war, and you have to make peace with your enemies, not your friends.

Israel's policies in the West Bank and Gaza are wrong, and ultimately they will not succeed in continuing to thwart the requirement for Palestinians to regain their right to full nationhood by using military coertion against them.

However, I am never going to buy into this anti-Israel hysteria among certain political groups in the West. Its quickly replaced anti-US anti-Bush hysteria among the well-fed chattering classes of Europe, which provides them with some sort of smug self-satisfaction that they are morally superior to those who take a more realistic view of human nature.

If Israel is eventually destroyed or crippled as a nation, that doesn't mean that extremist Islamic groups are going to leave us in the West alone you know, no more than Hitler was finished once he got his little paws on the Sudeatenland, or Austria, or Poland, or the Low Countries, or Russia.

In Pakistan recently, the rapidly dissolving Pakistani government made a deal which has turned over control of parts of the North West territories to the Taleban, who have immeadiately banned female education, any religion other than their extreme form of Islam, and crushed any form of political dissent, via the use of acid, guns, knives, and the rope.

Not one western "human rights" group has marched or even talked about it. Obviously its not an issue to them.

Apparently some people think that appeasing Muslim terrorism and religiously inspired fascism at home and abroad is "enlightened" and shows "cultural sensitivity" to a "differing world view". While criticizing Israel is "brave" and "making a stand for human rights".

My arse it is, its double standards, appeasement and cowardice, we in the West have simply become weak, lazy, and foolish as we have wallowed in our easy money and affluence. We will pay a terrible price for that folly if we don't wake up to what is happening in the world.

Our moral cowardice has made our worldview so jaundiced that apparently in some people's opinion, evil only occurs when Americans, Europeans, or Jews are involved. Lenin called such people in the West who acted as apologists for Soviet tyranny for 50 years "useful idiots". He was not incorrect in that assessment.




Not Trying To Be Wise Here Ok . Where Did You Get The Above Information Just Wondering .

[Galbally]

Daniyal;1143426 wrote: Not Trying To Be Wise Here Ok . Where Did You Get The Above Information Just Wondering .


I appreciate your not trying to be wise, I want to say I am not trying to be provocative or making any generalized slurs against any religion or people.

I got the information from the BBC, from the Irish Times, the Guardian, the Times of London, from Reuters, and other Western News organizations.

The conclusions I am drawing are my own, however.

Whether you trust those news organizations to report accurately on the world, is of course another issue.

[Amber Sun]

cherandbuster;349120 wrote: I think it's really interesting that so many have read this thread but none have replied.

I would venture that that is a response in itself.


Actually I have only just seen this thread. It is be remembered that there is a big time difference between all members of FG. In Canada alone there is a two hour time difference between myself and Odie, There is a 6 hour time difference between Manitoba and London in the UK. So while some are sleeping or at work others are posting. Plus the fact that not everyone lives at their computers.

[Daniyal]

Galbally;1143477 wrote: I appreciate your not trying to be wise, I want to say I am not trying to be provocative or making any generalized slurs against any religion or people.

I got the information from the BBC, from the Irish Times, the Guardian, the Times of London, from Reuters, and other Western News organizations.

The conclusions I am drawing are my own, however.

Whether you trust those news organizations to report accurately on the world, is of course another issue.




Thank you I also check out BBC News when I can .

[Amber Sun]

Scrat;349126 wrote: Short attention spans? Most likely denial of the:( truth.


Not true Scrat. You have to give everyone a chance to even see it.

I just read through your post, actually the whole thread, and in truth I don't know what to say. What Israel has done, and continues to do is horrendous, I think most of us agree on that. The fact that they are trying to deny what they have done and continuing to do shows that they are fully aware that what they are doing is wrong and want to hide it. I watched a news brief on BBC where a spokesman for Israel is claiming 'anti-semitism'. So what can a logical, thinking person say to this? Yes, in fact they are causing the anti-semitic feelings that people are having towards them at this time. They brought it on themselves. Did they really think that people think more of a Jew than a Palestinian? Perhaps that is why they need more land, to be able to hold all that ego.

But I want to go a step further here if you don't mind. What the h**l was the UN ever set up for if this kind of thing is allowed to go on? Why aren't they putting a stop to this? You and I can discuss this until the next ice-age but we aren't able to resolve the problem, only the UN can do that.

So what is stopping the UN? I heard on another news brief that the US and other countries have agreed to stop giving them weapons. If this is true why wasn't it done sooner? Is it possible that Michael Chertoff who is Israeli also happens to be head of Homeland Security and is in charge of the presidents safety along with his family? If this is the case then Israel is running the US. And the only reason that an agreement was made to stop the supply of weapons (if what I heard on BBC is true) is because Chertoff and the Zionists never counted on the anti-semitism that their warfare against the Palestinians would create. But as your report shows the rebellious and greedy attitude of the Jews will rise up again, and again the US will supply arms and again the UN will sit on their butts and do nothing but carry a title. And again many Palestinians will suffer and die and Israel will claim more land. When all of Palestine is gone Israel will turn it's attention to one of it's other borders and the cycle will start up again.

[Amber Sun]

Galbally;1143402 wrote: Terrorism=The use of violence and mass intimidation to coerce people into accepting or appeasing political, racial, or religious agendas.

No one has a monopoly on it.

I think most people can accept that the Israeli government behaves very badly in relation to the situation between Palestine and Israel in general. In the long-term if peace is not found, there will only ever be war, and you have to make peace with your enemies, not your friends.

Israel's policies in the West Bank and Gaza are wrong, and ultimately they will not succeed in continuing to thwart the requirement for Palestinians to regain their right to full nationhood by using military coertion against them.

However, I am never going to buy into this anti-Israel hysteria among certain political groups in the West. Its quickly replaced anti-US anti-Bush hysteria among the well-fed chattering classes of Europe, which provides them with some sort of smug self-satisfaction that they are morally superior to those who take a more realistic view of human nature.

If Israel is eventually destroyed or crippled as a nation, that doesn't mean that extremist Islamic groups are going to leave us in the West alone you know, no more than Hitler was finished once he got his little paws on the Sudeatenland, or Austria, or Poland, or the Low Countries, or Russia.

In Pakistan recently, the rapidly dissolving Pakistani government made a deal which has turned over control of parts of the North West territories to the Taleban, who have immeadiately banned female education, any religion other than their extreme form of Islam, and crushed any form of political dissent, via the use of acid, guns, knives, and the rope.

Not one western "human rights" group has marched or even talked about it. Obviously its not an issue to them. [/B]

Apparently some people think that appeasing Muslim terrorism and religiously inspired fascism at home and abroad is "enlightened" and shows "cultural sensitivity" to a "differing world view". While criticizing Israel is "brave" and "making a stand for human rights".

My arse it is, its double standards, appeasement and cowardice, we in the West have simply become weak, lazy, and foolish as we have wallowed in our easy money and affluence. We will pay a terrible price for that folly if we don't wake up to what is happening in the world.

Our moral cowardice has made our worldview so jaundiced that apparently in some people's opinion, evil only occurs when Americans, Europeans, or Jews are involved. Lenin called such people in the West who acted as apologists for Soviet tyranny for 50 years "useful idiots". He was not incorrect in that assessment.


If the Pakistani gov't gave away a portion of their land to the Taliban what good would it do for anyone here to demand that they take it back? Sure we could make up a petition Galbally, but what would we put on it, that the gov't of Pakistan has no right to make a deal over a portion of it's land? Should we perhaps demand a great religious war to put down the Muslim belief system? Who should lead this rally Gal, the Christians perhaps, or maybe the Pagans? I'll tell you what Galbally, you start the petition and set up the program and I'll sign your petition.

[Galbally]

Amber Sun;1143581 wrote: If the Pakistani gov't gave away a portion of their land to the Taliban what good would it do for anyone here to demand that they take it back? Sure we could make up a petition Galbally, but what would we put on it, that the gov't of Pakistan has no right to make a deal over a portion of it's land? Should we perhaps demand a great religious war to put down the Muslim belief system? Who should lead this rally Gal, the Christians perhaps, or maybe the Pagans? I'll tell you what Galbally, you start the petition and set up the program and I'll sign your petition.


You miss the point, the outrage about Gaza is all supposed to be about "outrage" at the humans rights abuses committed by the IDF, however, human rights abuses in Afganistan, Pakistan, Sudan, Chad, Nigeria, North Korea, Iran etc etc...well, they just don't seem to create as much "outrage" do they? People seem far more sanguine about that.

So what that tells me, is that in reality people's real beef is with Israel, and US Foreign policy, they couldn't actually give a monkeys about human rights, because human rights if they exist are supposed to be universal, they are not dependent on being part of a fashionable political cause.

You see our response in the West to Israel and Palestine, is really all about us and our own politics, and nothing to do with the situation on the ground. Its all about left and right wing politics in Europe and America, and thats what I find much of this debate about the terrible "wrongs" and "sufferings" being indured ringing very hollow.

Either human suffering is a universally wrong condition, or it isn't, if it isn't then your actually just one one side or another and using the suffering as a stick to beat the other side with, which is what happens most of the time. That's fine by me, but I would prefer if people admitted than, that pretending to only be concerned about "human rights".

In other words "our glorious dead are better than yours" our children's pain is more important than yours" or "our martrys are more worthy than yours".

[Amber Sun]

Galbally;1143633 wrote: You miss the point, the outrage about Gaza is all supposed to be about "outrage" at the humans rights abuses committed by the IDF, however, human rights abuses in Afganistan, Pakistan, Sudan, Chad, Nigeria, North Korea, Iran etc etc...well, they just don't seem to create as much "outrage" do they? People seem far more sanguine about that.

So what that tells me, is that in reality people's real beef is with Israel, and US Foreign policy, they couldn't actually give a monkeys about human rights, because human rights if they exist are supposed to be universal, they are not dependent on being part of a fashionable political cause.

You see our response in the West to Israel and Palestine, is really all about us and our own politics, and nothing to do with the situation on the ground. Its all about left and right wing politics in Europe and America, and thats what I find much of this debate about the terrible "wrongs" and "sufferings" being indured ringing very hollow.

Either human suffering is a universally wrong condition, or it isn't, if it isn't then your actually just one one side or another and using the suffering as a stick to beat the other side with, which is what happens most of the time. That's fine by me, but I would prefer if people admitted than, that pretending to only be concerned about "human rights".

In other words "our glorious dead are better than yours" our children's pain is more important than yours" or "our martrys are more worthy than yours".


I become 'outraged' at very little Gal, upset yes, angry yes, but outraged, very little. I tend to look at the problem, estimate if I or the average person can do anything about it, and if I decide that yes I can sway the outcome I will proceed on that course. If I decide that no, I and the average person cannot do anything about it then I simply keep an eye on it and see what happens.

I do understand what you mean though about people wanting something to talk about. And there are many who do exactly that and nothing else. I belong to Care2 where there are many, many petitions of all kinds. I have signed petitions to save the whales, save the wild cats of where ever. I have signed freedom for women rights petitions, feed the hungry, close down puppy mills, save the polar bears, help street people, and the list goes on and on. I signed so many petitions through so many groups that I had to drop many of the groups, withdraw and start over again. When asked if I would like to donate some of my crafts to a silent auction for Myanmar I did and was told that the funds my dolls generated was enough to provide pencils and paper for the school children in one village for a year.

The point of the above Gal is that if I feel I can so some good I will do what I can. If I cannot do anything about a situation then I don't feel guilty or ashamed for not doing anything. I know that there are many, many others like myself that help where and when we can, so your statements regarding our 'moral cowardice' is viewed as somewhat offensive.





Apparently some people think that appeasing Muslim terrorism and religiously inspired fascism at home and abroad is "enlightened" and shows "cultural sensitivity" to a "differing world view". While criticizing Israel is "brave" and "making a stand for human rights".

My arse it is, its double standards, appeasement and cowardice, we in the West have simply become weak, lazy, and foolish as we have wallowed in our easy money and affluence. We will pay a terrible price for that folly if we don't wake up to what is happening in the world.

Our moral cowardice has made our worldview so jaundiced that apparently in some people's opinion, evil only occurs when Americans, Europeans, or Jews are involved. Lenin called such people in the West who acted as apologists for Soviet tyranny for 50 years "useful idiots". He was not incorrect in that assessment.

Gal, hun, I can prove petitions that I have signed to ease discomfort and problems around the globe for humans, trees and animals, can you prove yours?

[Galbally]

Amber Sun;1143994 wrote: I become 'outraged' at very little Gal, upset yes, angry yes, but outraged, very little. I tend to look at the problem, estimate if I or the average person can do anything about it, and if I decide that yes I can sway the outcome I will proceed on that course. If I decide that no, I and the average person cannot do anything about it then I simply keep an eye on it and see what happens.

I do understand what you mean though about people wanting something to talk about. And there are many who do exactly that and nothing else. I belong to Care2 where there are many, many petitions of all kinds. I have signed petitions to save the whales, save the wild cats of where ever. I have signed freedom for women rights petitions, feed the hungry, close down puppy mills, save the polar bears, help street people, and the list goes on and on. I signed so many petitions through so many groups that I had to drop many of the groups, withdraw and start over again. When asked if I would like to donate some of my crafts to a silent auction for Myanmar I did and was told that the funds my dolls generated was enough to provide pencils and paper for the school children in one village for a year.

The point of the above Gal is that if I feel I can so some good I will do what I can. If I cannot do anything about a situation then I don't feel guilty or ashamed for not doing anything. I know that there are many, many others like myself that help where and when we can, so your statements regarding our 'moral cowardice' is viewed as somewhat offensive.





Apparently some people think that appeasing Muslim terrorism and religiously inspired fascism at home and abroad is "enlightened" and shows "cultural sensitivity" to a "differing world view". While criticizing Israel is "brave" and "making a stand for human rights".

My arse it is, its double standards, appeasement and cowardice, we in the West have simply become weak, lazy, and foolish as we have wallowed in our easy money and affluence. We will pay a terrible price for that folly if we don't wake up to what is happening in the world.

Our moral cowardice has made our worldview so jaundiced that apparently in some people's opinion, evil only occurs when Americans, Europeans, or Jews are involved. Lenin called such people in the West who acted as apologists for Soviet tyranny for 50 years "useful idiots". He was not incorrect in that assessment.

Gal, hun, I can prove petitions that I have signed to ease discomfort and problems around the globe for humans, trees and animals, can you prove yours?


I applaud you Amber for doing what you think is right to help causes, I am sorry that I tend to be jaundiced and cynical about human affairs. Its my failing, not yours.

I also can't prove that I have signed petitions about solving problems around the world, because in general I just refrain, I don't feel able or willing to solve the world's problems to be honest. I do give genunine credit to people who organize and try to do something, sometimes I do question the motives of certain groups though, you have to look at each situation on a case by case basis. Because nothing, nothing in this world is black and white.

In terms of Israel Palestine, I really believe that this issue has become a cipher for our own internal Western politics, and its amazing that you can almost tell what side a person from Ireland will take on Israel Palestine, based on what IRISH political party they support, thats only a general observation, but I think you know what I mean.

As for my own life, I claim no moral authority, or any right to even judge this issues, and I prefer it that way, as I am not a particularly moral person really. I just vote in the elections to the offices of the Republic I live in, as well as the wider European Union, and try to be as good a citizen as I can. Not always very sucessfully, but I do try.

[Daniyal]

Bryn Mawr;1143215 wrote: Out of order!

To make a accusation like that you'd better have some good evidence to provide or an apology to give.




If You Have Something On Your Chest Why Don't You Be Man Enought To Say What You Have To Say Opening , You Don't Have To Seek / Research Form To Find Something To Use Against Me And Give Me A Warning . And Don't Lie And Say You Didn't Do It , Because That Post Have Been Up For A While Now . And I'm Not The Only One Who Said Something Smart . Did You P.M.[ Lon ] And Give Him A Warning When He Said Nubian Wasn't Human In His Post # 2 - 5 On History Forum Wasn't That A Races Remark . Just In case You Try To Move It I Copy Paste On Both Form . You Have Rules For Your Friends And Rules For Other . If That Person Though I Had Insulted Them All They Had To Do Was Say So , And I Would Have Takecare Of It . And If They Had Went To ANY Moderators / Administrator I Would Have Heard Something Wayyyyyyyyyyy Before Now . You Just LQQKing Way To Use The Form Rules To Banned Me . This Forum Is BASE On People Makeing Smart Remark / Insulting Each Other Its Like A Game Here . If You Like I Can Show You Some Races Remark / Insult Being Use Here . The People Here On My Job I Should Report The Forum . I Said Naaaaaa Let Them Show What Lies Deep In There Heart

[Galbally]

Daniyal;1143531 wrote: Thank you I also check out BBC News when I can .


Its no problem Danyial.

I also accept that my opinions could be completely wrong, they are just my own opinions.

Also most of us here have never set foot in Israel or Palestine, I certainly haven't, which is why I don't feel entirely qualified to make a definitive assessment about the actual reality of what happens over there, other than it seems that there is terrible suffering going on. Particularly in Gaza.

The only think I really know about is the reaction to these events in my own country, which are often strange to me, still thats human nature I guess.

[Daniyal]

Galbally;1144290 wrote: Its no problem Danyial.

I also accept that my opinions could be completely wrong, they are just my own opinions.

Also most of us here have never set foot in Israel or Palestine, I certainly haven't, which is why I don't feel entirely qualified to make a definitive assessment about the actual reality of what happens over there, other than it seems that there is terrible suffering going on. Particularly in Gaza.

The only think I really know about is the reaction to these events in my own country, which are often strange to me, still thats human nature I guess.






My Though's Are How Can Israel Cry About What Happen To Them And They Doing That Same Thing To Palestine . They Took Their Land And Takeing More More . And The World Stand By And Do Nothing . And They Control What's Being Said In The Media . That Why I Look At BBC / Democracy Now Etc . Then I Makeup My Own Mind Who Doing What . By The Way I'm Not Anti-Jew , Its About Killing Woman & Children Because They Can .

[Amber Sun]

Galbally;1144016 wrote: I applaud you Amber for doing what you think is right to help causes, I am sorry that I tend to be jaundiced and cynical about human affairs. Its my failing, not yours.

I also can't prove that I have signed petitions about solving problems around the world, because in general I just refrain, I don't feel able or willing to solve the world's problems to be honest. I do give genunine credit to people who organize and try to do something, sometimes I do question the motives of certain groups though, you have to look at each situation on a case by case basis. Because nothing, nothing in this world is black and white.

In terms of Israel Palestine, I really believe that this issue has become a cipher for our own internal Western politics, and its amazing that you can almost tell what side a person from Ireland will take on Israel Palestine, based on what IRISH political party they support, thats only a general observation, but I think you know what I mean.

As for my own life, I claim no moral authority, or any right to even judge this issues, and I prefer it that way, as I am not a particularly moral person really. I just vote in the elections to the offices of the Republic I live in, as well as the wider European Union, and try to be as good a citizen as I can. Not always very sucessfully, but I do try.


We all judge hun, the difference is 'why we judge'. I am not a racist person in any way Gal. I have had friends from India, Africa, Jamaica, Jews, and I know a really lovely Muslim girl. I fraternize with Christians and Witches, I can celebrate the passover with the Jews and sit down to eat with an Arab and have participated in Pagan rituals. I have friends of all cultures and belief systems. But I will not tolerate mistreatment or abuse of someone who cannot defend him/herself. This is exactly what I see the Jews doing to the Palestinians. To me it is like knowing that an old person is getting beat up by some young thugs for his/her pension cheque, it's like knowing that a young thug is beating up on someone in a wheelchair. I don't give a d**n about the Zionists or Hamas either, the faster they all drop dead the better it will be for everyone else. But there are old people and children wandering around ruins without food and drinking water. You can bet your entire next month paycheque that I will put in my viewpoint on that kind of behaviour. So if I am biased on my views at this time Gal, you now know why.

:-3

[Daniyal]

Meanwhile, Israeli warplanes have launched new attacks on smuggling tunnels near Gaza’s Egypt border. A resident of Rafah said her family narrowly escaped injury.

Resident: “Planes bombed, and rockets fell near the house. My husband and the children were in the car just five minutes before the strike. They would have been attacked if they had stayed in it.”

Meanwhile, the Israeli government is facing new international criticism over its latest refusal to allow aid into the Gaza Strip. The aid group Mercy Corps says Israel is blocking a ninety-ton shipment of macaroni into Gaza. Much of Gaza’s 1.4 million population relies on humanitarian aid. The US is expected to pledge around $900 million for Gaza at a donors’ conference beginning on Monday. All of the money would go to non-governmental organizations.





Democracy Now.org

[Daniyal]

The Israeli group Peace Now says Israeli authorities are considering plans for 73,000 new housing units in Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank. The Israeli newspaper Haaretz reports that if all of the units are built, it would mean a 100 percent increase in the total number of Israeli settlers in the West Bank.

Hagit Ofran of Peace Now: “We believe that if such plans are going to be implemented, this could really prevent a two-state solution and actually any solution to our conflict. And this is why we call the new government not to approve any new construction anywhere in the West Bank whatsoever.”

Donors Pledge $5.2 Billion at Gaza Reconstruction Conference

International donors pledged $5.2 billion Monday at a conference to rebuild the devastated Gaza Strip, but not all of the money will go to Gaza. The Obama administration offered up $900 million, but only $300 million is directed for humanitarian relief for the people of Gaza. The rest of the money will go to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. Hamas spokesperson Mushir al-Masri criticized the international community for not directing more of the money to rebuild Gaza.

Mushir al-Masri: "We would like to stress that the rebuilding of Gaza should not be politicized, and this cause needs to be placed in its correct context—the welfare and humanitarian one. What happened in this conference was directing the rebuilding funds to the wrong people. But we would like to stress that what is most important is opening the crossings and ending the siege that has been placed on the Gaza Strip.”



Democracy Now.org

[Oscar Namechange]

Daniyal;1144298 wrote: My Though's Are How Can Israel Cry About What Happen To Them And They Doing That Same Thing To Palestine . They Took Their Land And Takeing More More . And The World Stand By And Do Nothing . And They Control What's Being Said In The Media . That Why I Look At BBC / Democracy Now Etc . Then I Makeup My Own Mind Who Doing What . By The Way I'm Not Anti-Jew , Its About Killing Woman & Children Because They Can . Well said Danny. :-6

Without peace, Gaza aid is useless, admits Mid-East envoy Blair... as he visits region for first time in two years | Mail Online

There will never be peace because Israel will never want it.

[Daniyal]

oscar;1150354 wrote: Well said Danny. :-6

Without peace, Gaza aid is useless, admits Mid-East envoy Blair... as he visits region for first time in two years | Mail Online

There will never be peace because Israel will never want it.


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