The Islamic History Of Europe

Abram Is Muslim · Post by **Abram Is Muslim** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:26 am

An Islamic history of Europe

Not everybody knows that Europe was affected so much by the Islamic culture established in Spain for 800 years , that culture later was the aid that forced Europe to wake up , and make that culture she made now , Im not saying everything came from the Islamic culture in Spain ( AL Andalus ), but that culture affected Europe so much , and many western scholars admited that..

This movie tells a different story about Europe , and how the Islamic civilization came through

the Islamic civlization in Al Andalus , where Muslims made an Islamic country in Europe ,

in whats now Spain , this country lasted for 800 years , and just fall in 18th Century ,

Its a great Movie shows how the christians and Jews lived in equivelant life in an Islamic country ,

its produced by BBC , the British Media Organisation.

Watch the movie Online:Here

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When the Moors Ruled in Europe

is a great British documentaryproduced by Wildfire Television for Channel 4 about how the Muslimsruled Spain and what did the made there: from great architecture andCalligraphy to great culture and knowledge.

You Can Watch it Online from here:

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:30 pm

What do you guys do for fun?

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:47 pm

Did you know it carried over into the Americas, with the Spanish conquest in the 1500s. Place names still remain which are Arabic in origin.

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:52 pm

I've been to that area of Spain, and there are some amazing remnants from those times.

Muhamed, I am aware that Egypt has a Coptic Christian community.

Are there any modern non-secular islamic countries where people of other faiths are now allowed to live in peace?

chonsigirl;1204593 wrote: Did you know it carried over into the Americas, with the Spanish conquest in the 1500s. Place names still remain which are Arabic in origin.

Sheriff - is an Arab word. There's lots of English words derived from Arabic..

English Words from Arabic

algebra, coffee, kiosk, algorithm, adobe, kohl, lilac, cork, jasmine, lemon, lime, marzipan, tamarind, tambourine, sugar, spinach, zero.

There were some glorious times, for sure, way back then.

ZAP · Post by **ZAP** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:00 pm

AussiePam;1204600 wrote:

Sheriff - is an Arab word. There's lots of English words derived from Arabic..

English Words from Arabic

algebra, coffee, kiosk, algorithm, adobe, kohl, lilac, cork, jasmine, lemon, lime, marzipan, tamarind, tambourine, sugar, spinach, zero.

There were some glorious times, for sure, way back then.

It was interesting to see "spinach" on the list. I didn't know that.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:19 pm

Seen it, it is a BBC documentary after all. Are you aware of how much interaction there actually was in the so called dark ages?

VIKINGS IN THE EAST_Remarkable Eyewitness Accounts

The Georgian Mameluks in Egypt

The Georgian Mameluks in Egypt

There was also trade with china and india. The spreading of ideas has not been one way nor did islam or judaism spring up in isolation form the rest of humanity. Good grief the celts even get a mention in the bible and I think the koran as well but i'm not sure. Without the european talent for war and the trading of iron for weapons perhaps the shape of the middle east would be very different indeed.

The more you dig in to it the more you realise we really are all Jock Tamson's Bairns and religion is a divisive force in the world not a unifying one.

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:23 pm

What is amazing to me, gmc, is that when religion became totally dominant - and I'm not referring to one religion more than another here - scholarship and learning declined, or rather was diverted into the minutiae of scriptural interpretation and legalistic trivialities - is it permissible to press a lift button on the sabbath, is it okay to show half an inch of female ankle, how many angels can you fit on a pinhead, creationism. Totalitarian relgion stifled science, free speech, free movement, debate, education.

Chockygirl · Post by **Chockygirl** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:35 pm

AussiePam;1204691 wrote: What is amazing to me, gmc, is that when religion became totally dominant - and I'm not referring to one religion more than another here - scholarship and learning declined, or rather was diverted into the minutiae of scriptural interpretation and legalistic trivialities - is it permissible to press a lift button on the sabbath, is it okay to show half an inch of female ankle, how many angels can you fit on a pinhead, creationism. Totalitarian relgion stifled science, free speech, free movement, debate, education.

I agree,Pam.

That seems to happen when religion becomes totally dominant,rather than just an adjuct to a person's many facets of their life.

There always appears to be a controlling of the masses by the church hierarchy as if freedom of thought would lead people astray.

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:42 pm

Chockygirl;1204704 wrote:

I agree,Pam.

That seems to happen when religion becomes totally dominant,rather than just an adjuct to a person's many facets of their life.

There always appears to be a controlling of the masses by the church hierarchy.

Sigh.. yes. I suppose we should enjoy the fact that FG seems less dead at the moment. And it's Christmas/Hannukah/Eid for at least one of our Eminent Gardeners. Personally, I'm a bit hohum about one newbie erecting himself a gigantic soapbox from which to get in all our faces. Dialogue takes two, both able to listen as well as preach. Anyway, I don't subscribe too much these days to narrow man-constructed religious rules of any flavour. When I said this early on, I was immediately accused of being an atheist and offered private counselling. Religion has, in my humble opinion which I won't force down anyone's throat, given God/Allah/Yahweh a bad name.

Abram Is Muslim · Post by **Abram Is Muslim** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:45 pm

AussiePam;1204600 wrote: I've been to that area of Spain, and there are some amazing remnants from those times.

Muhamed, I am aware that Egypt has a Coptic Christian community.

Are there any modern non-secular islamic countries where people of other faiths are now allowed to live in peace?

.

Youcan see the Masjids (Mosques) , next to the Churches here, People here live in peace completely, I even put some pictures for Jews in Yeman , they live in poor places in Yeman and refuse to go to Israel , where they can get houses and everything for free, because they are Arab before they are Jews ,and they are Orthdox Jews against the occupying of Israel for Palestine.

And they live in peace , you can even they being affected by the Islamic clothes ,that almost are like the same Orthdox Clothes.

Attached files

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:49 pm

AussiePam;1204708 wrote: Sigh.. yes. I suppose we should enjoy the fact that FG seems less dead at the moment. (..) Personally, I'm a bit hohum about one newbie erecting himself a gigantic soapbox from which to get in all our faces.

"Follows the path" of these discussions exactly. ICBA lately, because of the verbiage. 'Swotappens.

Chockygirl · Post by **Chockygirl** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:52 pm

AussiePam;1204708 wrote: Sigh.. yes. I suppose we should enjoy the fact that FG seems less dead at the moment. And it's Christmas/Hannukah/Eid for at least one of our Eminent Gardeners. Personally, I'm a bit hohum about one newbie erecting himself a gigantic soapbox from which to get in all our faces. Dialogue takes two, both able to listen as well as preach. Anyway, I don't subscribe too much these days to narrow man-constructed religious rules of any flavour. When I said this early on, I was immediately accused of being an atheist and offered private counselling. Religion has, in my humble opinion which I won't force down anyone's throat, given God/Allah/Yahwey a bad name.

Yes,it's really interesting and a learning experience with having various folk here of different nationalities and beliefs.

However,while I'm more than happy to be educated in aspects of different cultures, I don't wish to have religious mantra literally forced down my throat.

As far as I'm concerned,there's nothing wrong with being an atheist.

More atrocities,imo, in this world have been instigated under the banner of one religion or another.

Abram Is Muslim · Post by **Abram Is Muslim** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:53 pm

gmc;1204635 wrote: Seen it, it is a BBC documentary after all. Are you aware of how much interaction there actually was in the so called dark ages?

VIKINGS IN THE EAST_Remarkable Eyewitness Accounts

The Georgian Mameluks in Egypt

There was also trade with china and india. The spreading of ideas has not been one way nor did islam or judaism spring up in isolation form the rest of humanity. Good grief the celts even get a mention in the bible and I think the koran as well but i'm not sure. Without the european talent for war and the trading of iron for weapons perhaps the shape of the middle east would be very different indeed.

The more you dig in to it the more you realise we really are all Jock Tamson's Bairns and religion is a divisive force in the world not a unifying one.

I wish You can Read about ( Al Andalus )

Abram Is Muslim · Post by **Abram Is Muslim** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:56 pm

Chockygirl;1204718 wrote:

Yes,it's really interesting and a learning experience with having various folk here of different nationalities and beliefs.

However,while I'm more than happy to be educated in aspects of different cultures, I don't wish to have religious mantra literally forced down my throat.

As far as I'm concerned,there's nothing wrong with being an atheist.

More atrocities,imo, in this world have been instigated under the banner of one religion or another.

We were discussing that point on Muslim on board

Abram Is Muslim · Post by **Abram Is Muslim** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:59 pm

BBC Documentary Series. Physicist Jim Al-Khalili travels through Syria, Iran, Tunisia and Spain to tell the story of the great leap in scientific knowledge that took place in the Islamic world between the 8th and 14th centuries ...

Watch it Here------------------------->

Post by **Betty Boop** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:01 pm

AussiePam;1204708 wrote: Sigh.. yes. I suppose we should enjoy the fact that FG seems less dead at the moment. And it's Christmas/Hannukah/Eid for at least one of our Eminent Gardeners. Personally, I'm a bit hohum about one newbie erecting himself a gigantic soapbox from which to get in all our faces. Dialogue takes two, both able to listen as well as preach. Anyway, I don't subscribe too much these days to narrow man-constructed religious rules of any flavour. When I said this early on, I was immediately accused of being an atheist and offered private counselling. Religion has, in my humble opinion which I won't force down anyone's throat, given God/Allah/Yahwey a bad name.

All of these posts are in the relevant forums, if you don't like the subject don't go there. You may not like it but I'm enjoying trying to view things from another perspective, rather than just the western 'construct' we have on the eastern world.

Abram Is Muslim · Post by **Abram Is Muslim** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:01 pm

Muslims Contribution to Science

What is the contribution of the Islamic civilization to science? In the Western worldâ€™s account of history, the contribution of the Muslim civilization is usually ignored. Even when it is recognizâ€¦

You Can Watch it Online from here---------------------->

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:06 pm

Abram Is Muslim;1204727 wrote: What is the contribution of the Islamic civilization to science? In the Western worldâ€™s account of history, the contribution of the Muslim civilization is usually ignored.

No, it isn't. I am beginning to rapidly lose faith in the accuracy of your postings.

Abram Is Muslim · Post by **Abram Is Muslim** » Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:10 pm

Bill Sikes;1204732 wrote: No, it isn't. I am beginning to rapidly lose faith in the accuracy of your postings.

Among the scolars it aint , butin another places it almost hidden or ignored , like many Media , try to talk about the conflict of cultures , rather than the complementing of them

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:08 am

Abram Is Muslim;1204720 wrote:

I wish You can Read about ( Al Andalus )

You make the assumption you are telling us things we don't already know. Did you look at the links I posted? Who knows without the viking connection perhaps the islamic empires would have failed. It was European warriors not arab ones that stopped the mongols and helped make Egypt what it is today.

By the time of the Mameluks, the arabization of Egypt must have been complete. Arabic was the language of the bureaucracy since the early 8th Century and the language of religion and culture even longer. The specific Mameluk contribution to Arabic culture lay above all in their military achievement. By defeating the Mongols (battle of Ain Jalut, 3 September, 1260), the Mameluks provided a shelter in Syria and in Egypt for Muslims fleeing from Mongol devastation. Though, the extent of this haven was narrowed by subsequent Mongol attacks against Syria, one of which led to a brief Mongol occupation of Damascus in 1294-95, so that Egypt received an influx of refugees from Syria itself as well as from areas farther east. Concrete evidence of the stimulus the Mameluks gave to cultural life can be found chiefly in the fields of architecture and historiography. Dozens of public buildings erected under Mameluk patronage are still standing in Cairo and include mosques, colleges, hospitals, monasteries, and caravansaries. Historical writing under the Mameluks was equally monumental, in the form of immense chronicles, philosophical tractates and other works.

You live in a country that has a distinct culture and identity courtesy of Christians taken from their homes by force. Perhaps you should stop kidding yourself islamic civilisation has a claim to the moral high ground-a hubris you seem only too ready to accuse Christians of. It's the clash of cultures and the sharing of ideas that allow for progress. It works both ways, if you want people to listen and read your posts you need to reciprocate.

You share one thing in common with Christians-you assume someone who is not religious is unaware or hasn't thought about it and just needs to find god and their particular religion has all the right answers. The reality is very different.

posted by aussie pam

What is amazing to me, gmc, is that when religion became totally dominant - and I'm not referring to one religion more than another here - scholarship and learning declined, or rather was diverted into the minutiae of scriptural interpretation and legalistic trivialities - is it permissible to press a lift button on the sabbath, is it okay to show half an inch of female ankle, how many angels can you fit on a pinhead, creationism. Totalitarian relgion stifled science, free speech, free movement, debate, education.

For religion to prosper it has to trample reason and freedom to think-the best way of course being to control access to education and what books and ideas are readily available. Monotheism by it's very nature is totalitarian, if it allows other religions or even the idea that religion is unnecessary to exist then it leaves open the possibility that faith might be questioned. Faith has to be blind and unreasoning which is perhaps why so many religious people are incapable of discussing their faith without quoting vast screeds from the bible or koran. It saves them thinking. Religious fanatics would destroy everything to remake things the way they think it should be all in the name of religion.

Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has: it never comes to the aid of spritual things, but--more frequently than not --struggles against the Divine Word...." - Martin Luther

"Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God." - Martin Luther

"The damned whore Reason...." - Martin Luther

On other words don't think-just believe. If you think the devil wins and you go to hell-a concept I always suspect was pinched from the pagans.

Abram Is Muslim · Post by **Abram Is Muslim** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:59 am

gmc;1204883 wrote: You make the assumption you are telling us things we don't already know. Did you look at the links I posted? Who knows without the viking connection perhaps the islamic empires would have failed. It was European warriors not arab ones that stopped the mongols and helped make Egypt what it is today.

You live in a country that has a distinct culture and identity courtesy of Christians taken from their homes by force. Perhaps you should stop kidding yourself islamic civilisation has a claim to the moral high ground-a hubris you seem only too ready to accuse Christians of. It's the clash of cultures and the sharing of ideas that allow for progress. It works both ways, if you want people to listen and read your posts you need to reciprocate.

You share one thing in common with Christians-you assume someone who is not religious is unaware or hasn't thought about it and just needs to find god and their particular religion has all the right answers. The reality is very different.

I hate explaining the facts, anyways , look friend,

The Battle of Ain Jalut took place on 3 September 1260 between the Egyptian Mamluks and the Mongols in Palestine, in the Jezreel Valley.

This battle is considered by many historians to be of great macro-historical importance, as it marked the highwater point of Mongol conquests, and the first time they had ever been decisively defeated. After previous defeats, the Mongols had always returned and avenged the loss, but after the Battle of Ain Jalut they were unable to do so. The Mongol Ilkhanate leader Hulagu Khan was not able to advance into Egypt, and the Khanate he established in Persia was only able to defeat the Mamluks once in subsequent expeditions, briefly reoccupying Syria and parts of Palestine for a few months in 1300.

In 1260, Hulagu sent envoys to Qutuz in Cairo, demanding his surrender:

â€œ From the King of Kings of the East and West, the Great Khan. To Qutuz the Mamluk, who fled to escape our swords. You should think of what happened to other countries and submit to us. You have heard how we have conquered a vast empire and have purified the earth of the disorders that tainted it. We have conquered vast areas, massacring all the people. You cannot escape from the terror of our armies. Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations. Only those who beg our protection will be safe. Hasten your reply before the fire of war is kindled. Resist and you will suffer the most terrible catastrophes. We will shatter your mosques and reveal the weakness of your God and then we will kill your children and your old men together. At present you are the only enemy against whom we have to march.

Qutuz responded, however, by killing the envoys and displaying their heads on Bab Zuweila, one of the gates of Cairo.

The power dynamic then changed due to the death of the Great Khan Mongke, requiring Hulagu and other senior Mongols to return home to decide upon his successor. A potential Great Khan, Hulagu took the majority of his army with him, and left a much smaller force, only around one or two tumens (10,000-20,000 men) under his best general, the Nestorian Christian Turk[3] Kitbuqa Noyan.

In late August, Kitbuqa's forces proceeded south from their base at Baalbek, passing to the east of Lake Tiberias through Palestine.

The Mamluk Sultan Qutuz at that time allied with a fellow Mamluk, Baibars, who wanted to defend Islam after the Mongols captured Damascus and most of Bilad al-Sham.

The Mongols, for their part, attempted to form a Franco-Mongol alliance with (or at least, demand the submission of) the remnant of the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem, now centered on Acre, but Pope Alexander IV had forbidden this. Tensions between Franks and Mongols had also increased when Julian of Sidon caused an incident which resulted in the death of one of Kitbuqa's grandsons. Angered, Kitbuqa had sacked Sidon. The Barons of Acre, contacted by the Mongols, had also been approached by the Mamluks, seeking military assistance against the Mongols

Though the Mamluks were the traditional enemies of the Franks, the Barons of Acre recognized the Mongols as the more immediate menace, and so the Crusaders opted for a position of cautious neutrality between the two forces[read ^ Morgan, p. 137.]. In an unusual move, they agreed that the Egyptian Mamluks could march north through the Crusader territories unmolested, and even camp to resupply near Acre. When news arrived that the Mongols had crossed the Jordan River, Sultan Qutuz and his forces then proceeded southeast toward the spring at Ain Jalut in the Jezreel Valley[read a b Bartlett, p. 253 ].

The Europians were servants under the great mongolic power that time,

Bohn, Henry G. (1848) The Road to Knowledge of the Return of Kings, Chronicles of the Crusades, AMS Press, New York, 1969 edition, a translation of Chronicles of the Crusades : being contemporary narratives of the crusade of Richard Coeur de Lion by Richard of Devizes and Geoffrey de Vinsauf and of the crusade of St. Louis, by Lord John de Joinville.

Amitai-Preiss, Reuven (1995). Mongols and Mamluks: The Mamluk-Ilkhanid War, 1260-1281. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge. ISBN 978-0521462266.

And sure modern Egypt has Europian roots in its culutre, and that started in 17th century, and Im proud of that,that what I call culture complimenting ,not conflicting, but still have my comment about what Europe did in its occuption to the east , specially what Itali did in Libya,and what England did by whole Africa.

we can disucss that...

I wish You get the facts friend, and Im here talking about complimenting not conflicting ,I wish You get my intetations well..

Post by **spot** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:05 am

AussiePam;1204691 wrote: What is amazing to me, gmc, is that when religion became totally dominant - and I'm not referring to one religion more than another here - scholarship and learning declined, or rather was diverted into the minutiae of scriptural interpretation and legalistic trivialitiesOh come now - a lot of the ancient greek texts only exist today because of the schools in the Islamic world which rescued them. We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the scholars of that era and you can scarcely say it wasn't religion-dominated at the time. Just look at the sources relied on in Latin translations of the 12th century - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The BBC Documentary Series. "Physicist Jim Al-Khalili travels" which was just mentioned goes into the topic thoroughly, I enjoyed watching that.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:13 am

spot;1204984 wrote: Oh come now - a lot of the ancient greek texts only exist today because of the schools in the Islamic world which rescued them. We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the scholars of that era and you can scarcely say it wasn't religion-dominated at the time. Just look at the sources relied on in Latin translations of the 12th century - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The BBC Documentary Series. "Physicist Jim Al-Khalili travels" which was just mentioned goes into the topic thoroughly, I enjoyed watching that.

Yes, that is true. All those ancient texts were translated again, and the Renaissance began in Europe.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:10 am

Abram Is Muslim;1204983 wrote:

I hate explaining the facts, anyways , look friend,

The Battle of Ain Jalut took place on 3 September 1260 between the Egyptian Mamluks and the Mongols in Palestine, in the Jezreel Valley.

This battle is considered by many historians to be of great macro-historical importance, as it marked the highwater point of Mongol conquests, and the first time they had ever been decisively defeated. After previous defeats, the Mongols had always returned and avenged the loss, but after the Battle of Ain Jalut they were unable to do so. The Mongol Ilkhanate leader Hulagu Khan was not able to advance into Egypt, and the Khanate he established in Persia was only able to defeat the Mamluks once in subsequent expeditions, briefly reoccupying Syria and parts of Palestine for a few months in 1300.

In 1260, Hulagu sent envoys to Qutuz in Cairo, demanding his surrender:

---

And sure modern Egypt has Europian roots in its culutre, and that started in 17th century, and Im proud of that,that what I call culture complimenting ,not conflicting, but still have my comment about what Europe did in its occuption to the east , specially what Itali did in Libya,and what England did by whole Africa.

we can disucss that...

I wish You get the facts friend, and Im here talking about complimenting not conflicting ,I wish You get my intetations well..

If you'd bothered reading that link you'd have realised I was referencing that battle and pointing out the origins of the mameluks. It would have saved you posting all that. I was trying to make the point that islamic civilisation is on no position to claim the moral high ground any more than western civilisation. Your nation owes much to the descendants of children taken as slaves from europe-in the case of the mamelukes a lot of them were sold by the mongols to the arabs which has a certain irony considering who stopped their advance in to the middle east.

I'm also quite well aware of the european history of empire as probably are most of the poster on this forum. You seem to be under the impression You are telling us something we didn't know. You also seem not to appreciate that muslims also have a history of empire building every bit as bloody as the europeans. You are hardly innocent victims in all of this.

Abram Is Muslim · Post by **Abram Is Muslim** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:46 am

gmc;1205094 wrote: If you'd bothered reading that link you'd have realised I was referencing that battle and pointing out the origins of the mameluks. It would have saved you posting all that. I was trying to make the point that islamic civilisation is on no position to claim the moral high ground any more than western civilisation. Your nation owes much to the descendants of children taken as slaves from europe-in the case of the mamelukes a lot of them were sold by the mongols to the arabs which has a certain irony considering who stopped their advance in to the middle east.

I'm also quite well aware of the european history of empire as probably are most of the poster on this forum. You seem to be under the impression You are telling us something we didn't know. You also seem not to appreciate that muslims also have a history of empire building every bit as bloody as the europeans. You are hardly innocent victims in all of this.

give One one Civiliations raised up well perfectly morally....?? You wont find Pagans of Greeks, Pharoahs, Jews , Christians, Neither Muslims.

You know Why....??

Because the civlizations are based on persons, and the persons or the human being is full of mistakes, while the teachings and prinicipals of cutlures can be discussed , but the for the persons , they change the path of the cultures to a wrong path.

Anyways the point of the thread was to show the compliment of the cultures , and you sudden moved it into theconflict between them.

Yes the Islamic civilization passed hard times, under corrupted leaders, but it last for ages great under great leaders, the same being applied over the Jewish , Christian and the Athiesm civilzation now...

You already now after the role of the church was limited in Europe , You know what Europe did by the East and how much they make it suffer....millions was killed because of that Athiesm civilation, so Lets say no civilization is perfect, but the teachings and principals , can be discussed...

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:46 pm

spot;1204984 wrote: Oh come now - a lot of the ancient greek texts only exist today because of the schools in the Islamic world which rescued them. We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the scholars of that era and you can scarcely say it wasn't religion-dominated at the time. Just look at the sources relied on in Latin translations of the 12th century - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The BBC Documentary Series. "Physicist Jim Al-Khalili travels" which was just mentioned goes into the topic thoroughly, I enjoyed watching that.

I'm not disputing the massive contribution to the world from the islamic world of the middle ages. I am lamenting what happens when totalitarian religion of any kind takes over - anywhere. Thought you might actually be with me on this one...

Post by **spot** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:50 pm

AussiePam;1205232 wrote: I'm not disputing the massive contribution to the world from the islamic world of the middle ages. I am lamenting what happens when totalitarian religion of any kind takes over - anywhere. Thought you might actually be with me on this one...

What you actually wrote was "when religion became totally dominant - and I'm not referring to one religion more than another here - scholarship and learning declined" which fits rather better with my response than with your comment, surely.

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:59 pm

Post by **spot** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:02 pm

AussiePam;1205302 wrote: No.

Director! Decision needed over here...

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:07 pm

Thinkers living in Islamic cultures gave Europeans eg the concept of zero. Thinkers living in Christian cultures gave Muslims eg the concept of germ theory. I'm not clear that either has much to do with religion. What IS certain is that religious wars lead to enormous amounts of death.

Abram Is Muslim · Post by **Abram Is Muslim** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:17 pm

Clodhopper;1205372 wrote: Thinkers living in Islamic cultures gave Europeans eg the concept of zero. Thinkers living in Christian cultures gave Muslims eg the concept of germ theory. I'm not clear that either has much to do with religion. What IS certain is that religious wars lead to enormous amounts of death.

What I know more , that the church role in Europe was almost frozen since the begining of the 19th century , and starting from that date , the Athiests had everything , and Europe made the East suffer, just read about the occupion of the Eastern Counteries by the Athiests Europians , I think the religions has nothing to do with bombing Japan with nuclear weapons, the religions had nothing to do , when Athiest leaders like Sadam killed thousands of his nation..................

Stop blaming the religions for the huminity mistakes , its about the closed minded persons , not the religions....

anyways there is a topic called the Modern science prove Islam , I wish You can go there and discuss in logic and science...Peace for You

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:22 am

Abram Is Muslim;1205377 wrote:

What I know more , that the church role in Europe was almost frozen since the begining of the 19th century , and starting from that date , the Athiests had everything , and Europe made the East suffer, just read about the occupion of the Eastern Counteries by the Athiests Europians , I think the religions has nothing to do with bombing Japan with nuclear weapons, the religions had nothing to do , when Athiest leaders like Sadam killed thousands of his nation..................

Stop blaming the religions for the huminity mistakes , its about the closed minded persons , not the religions....

anyways there is a topic called the Modern science prove Islam , I wish You can go there and discuss in logic and science...Peace for You

It seems you have your own collection of misconceptions and opinions that you are not prepared to have challenged or even think about. A closed mind is a wonderful thing secure in it's own wall of prejudices. That the european empires ended up defeating the islamic ones is a historical fact. The reasons are many and varied and have bugger all to do with atheism, or even christianity come to that. What relevance does that have? Saddam was a muslim-perhaps not particularly devout but a Muslim nonetheless.

Perhaps if muslims had been less interested in fighting each other things might have turned out differently who knows.

Abram Is Muslim · Post by **Abram Is Muslim** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:27 am

gmc;1205688 wrote: It seems you have your own collection of misconceptions and opinions that you are not prepared to have challenged or even think about. A closed mind is a wonderful thing secure in it's own wall of prejudices. That the european empires ended up defeating the islamic ones is a historical fact. The reasons are many and varied and have bugger all to do with atheism, or even christianity come to that. What relevance does that have? Saddam was a muslim-perhaps not particularly devout but a Muslim nonetheless.

Perhaps if muslims had been less interested in fighting each other things might have turned out differently who knows.

If Sadam was Muslim, then Hitlar was a pope

Post by **spot** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:42 am

Abram Is Muslim;1205717 wrote: If Sadam was Muslim, then Hitlar was a pope

Oh come now, of course Saddam was Muslim. What possible meaning does Muslim have that would exclude him?

Abram Is Muslim · Post by **Abram Is Muslim** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:00 pm

spot;1205721 wrote: Oh come now, of course Saddam was Muslim. What possible meaning does Muslim have that would exclude him?

Whole the teachings of Islam

he never followed one, well

many presidents in our area are Muslims by names, here no One has the name Athist in his ID, the IDs are Muslims or Christians , no place for Athist here in Ids at least,

I dont know if my point was clear,

and about the Muslims fighting each others, then Mr GMC what was the first and the second world wide war , and what about the wear of the hundred years...

Post by **spot** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:18 pm

Abram Is Muslim;1205754 wrote: Whole the teachings of Islam

he never followed one, wellI think you're being unduly harsh and judgemental. Consider his final letter. I'd find it difficult to say they're the words of an unbeliever.

I'll take the text from Saddam&squo;s final words | The Daily Telegraph but I note in particular this passage:Remember that God has enabled you to become an example of love, forgiveness and brotherly co-existence... I call on you not to hate because hate does not leave a space for a person to be fair and it makes you blind and closes all doors of thinking and keeps away one from balanced thinking and making the right choice ... I also call on you not to hate the peoples of the other countries that attacked us and differentiate between the decision-makers and peoples... Anyone who repents - whether in Iraq or abroad - you must forgive him...

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:47 pm

I think there's some linguistic misconceptions here.

It's very tempting to make one's own religious definition. A True Muslim is a Muslim who holds the tenets of Islam in exactly the way you do. A True Christian is a Christian who believes exactly the way I do... etc... In reality, believers probably sit on different points of a belief scale... down to those who say they are Muslim or Christian or Jewish or whatever in a non-practising, but cultural feel way.

In this Forum, committed Christians argue amongst themselves about the meaning of their faith, and disagree often.

I know there are also many kinds of Muslim believers, and this is reflected clearly in the islamic population of Australia - we have shiites, sunnis, many kinds of Middle Eastern muslims, and even more Asians.

There are a lot of people who are just plain uncertain and are really agnostics- they aren't sure one way or the other whether there is a God. Or they think there could be, but don't really care.

To be an atheist, you need to believe most strongly that there is no God. Many people I know strongly believe that there is a God, but that He/She is bigger than the interpretations of any one religion. They are not infidels or unbelievers. And they are absolutely not atheists.

An old priest I knew years ago said that he thought of God in the centre of a huge wheel, with many spokes...and on the outer rim were all religions of the world.. It's just an illustration but he saw people searching for God moving, as they grew in holiness, slowly towards the centre.. and as they moved closer to their idea of God in the centre, they also moved closer to each other, till they were all one in enlightenment.

ZAP · Post by **ZAP** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:09 pm

Very well said. I like the illustration by the old priet.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:19 am

Abram Is Muslim;1205754 wrote: Whole the teachings of Islam

he never followed one, well

many presidents in our area are Muslims by names, here no One has the name Athist in his ID, the IDs are Muslims or Christians , no place for Athist here in Ids at least,

I dont know if my point was clear,

and about the Muslims fighting each others, then Mr GMC what was the first and the second world wide war , and what about the wear of the hundred years...

They weren't religious wars although the ottoman empire was involved they weren't exactly fighting for the Muslim cause were they?

The hundred years war was several hundred years earlier as were most of europes religious wars. we kind of fought out all the differences and stopped fighting over religion finding other things as a main reason to go to war over. No one is disputing that christians had religious wars amongst themselves, indeed I live in a country where being a catholic in the wrong pub at the wrong time can still result in getting your head Kicked in.

The muslim empires are just as violent as any christian one ever was. What was the iran iraq war then? sunni against shia with god cheering on both sides. Sectarian warfare is the most brutal of all and muslims are just as prone to it. Your moral high ground is an illusion.