spot;1272789 wrote: Why's that an obvious reason? Killers often get life sentences.
You're right Spot. Killers often get a life sentence. In this case, I doubt she will be sentenced to life in prison. Most likely, removed from the nursing facility and locked up in a securer facility, with some type of monitoring system until she dies.
Like Nomad stated:
some good old fashioned due process of the law
She's now in the system, innocent, until proven guilty.
Do I feel sorry for her? No.
Whatever the outcome of her court hearing, this woman with dementia is not going to comprehend what she did was wrong nor understand the verdict.
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Mustang;1272810 wrote: Whatever the outcome of her court hearing, this woman with dementia is not going to comprehend what she did was wrong nor understand the verdict.I bet no trial ever starts. it would be interesting to see the judge's summary if it got that far but I'm sure it won't.
Where did "a dreadful accident" disappear to?
Anyway, we've heard the Moral Majority on Laura Lundquist. Might I ask them whether they'd like to see Vince Li treated more harshly than they've suggested for the demented pensioner?
Where did "a dreadful accident" disappear to?
Anyway, we've heard the Moral Majority on Laura Lundquist. Might I ask them whether they'd like to see Vince Li treated more harshly than they've suggested for the demented pensioner?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Jazzy;1272798 wrote: This woman in question, IMHO, belonged in a psychiatric facility BEFORE she esculated to killing her room mate. All the warnings signs were there but the nursing home chose to ignore them.
Might I latch onto this and in some vampyric sense drain several gallons of blood from it?
You appear, Jazzy, as though you have a new worthwhile nationwide protocol here. We have, in the reports, "all the warnings signs". That helps immeasurably. In order for the other fifty thousand nursing homes in the USA not to be guilty of ignoring them, the nursing homes ought to tick off all those behaviors against each of their residents, and ship out everyone as bad or worse into psychiatric facilities.
Do they exist in those numbers, these long-term places in psychiatric facilities? I think you're talking of hundreds of thousands of new psychiatric patients and quite a few nursing homes closing for lack of custom.
Might I latch onto this and in some vampyric sense drain several gallons of blood from it?
You appear, Jazzy, as though you have a new worthwhile nationwide protocol here. We have, in the reports, "all the warnings signs". That helps immeasurably. In order for the other fifty thousand nursing homes in the USA not to be guilty of ignoring them, the nursing homes ought to tick off all those behaviors against each of their residents, and ship out everyone as bad or worse into psychiatric facilities.
Do they exist in those numbers, these long-term places in psychiatric facilities? I think you're talking of hundreds of thousands of new psychiatric patients and quite a few nursing homes closing for lack of custom.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Tutters, moaners and screamers required for thread participation
spot;1272813 wrote:
Might I ask them whether they'd like to see Vince Li treated more harshly than they've suggested for the demented pensioner?
now you finally believe Vince Li's friends and specialists said he was a Paranoid Schizophrenic before the bus beheading.
that's strange as before you said no one knew he was?
-so you are wrong at times also......huh
- it's up to the courts to decide on what her punishment should be.
Might I ask them whether they'd like to see Vince Li treated more harshly than they've suggested for the demented pensioner?
now you finally believe Vince Li's friends and specialists said he was a Paranoid Schizophrenic before the bus beheading.
that's strange as before you said no one knew he was?
-so you are wrong at times also......huh
- it's up to the courts to decide on what her punishment should be.
Life is just to short for drama.
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Odie;1272859 wrote: now you finally believe Vince Li's friends and specialists said he was a Paranoid Schizophrenic before the bus beheading.
that's strange as before you said no one knew he was?
-so you are wrong at times also......huh
- it's up to the courts to decide on what her punishment should be.
That would be a first :wah:
but where on Earth did he suggest that?
that's strange as before you said no one knew he was?
-so you are wrong at times also......huh
- it's up to the courts to decide on what her punishment should be.
That would be a first :wah:
but where on Earth did he suggest that?
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Bryn Mawr;1272883 wrote: but where on Earth did he suggest that?I didn't, of course. Odie does make connected conversation an uphill task.
Odie;1272859 wrote: - it's up to the courts to decide on what her punishment should be.So why should it not be up to the court what Vince Li's punishment should be?
Odie;1272859 wrote: - it's up to the courts to decide on what her punishment should be.So why should it not be up to the court what Vince Li's punishment should be?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Tutters, moaners and screamers required for thread participation
Bryn Mawr;1272883 wrote: That would be a first :wah:
but where on Earth did he suggest that?
'You've invented that, it's not true. Vince Li, for example, had never been diagnosed or even thought of as having a mental illness before he beheaded that chap on the Greyhound Canada bus last year.'
but where on Earth did he suggest that?
'You've invented that, it's not true. Vince Li, for example, had never been diagnosed or even thought of as having a mental illness before he beheaded that chap on the Greyhound Canada bus last year.'
Life is just to short for drama.
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spot;1272884 wrote:
So why should it not be up to the court what Vince Li's punishment should be?
-it was up to the court.:rolleyes:
- did you not read that either?
Both the Crown and the defence agreed that Li is a schizophrenic who was suffering a psychotic episode when he killed the 22-year-old McLean.
Li, 40, will now be remanded to a secure psychiatric facility where he will receive treatment. A review panel will decide in the next six weeks which facility he will be transferred to, depending on whether he is considered a risk to others or to himself.
I have to leave this thread now.:yh_rotfl
So why should it not be up to the court what Vince Li's punishment should be?
-it was up to the court.:rolleyes:
- did you not read that either?
Both the Crown and the defence agreed that Li is a schizophrenic who was suffering a psychotic episode when he killed the 22-year-old McLean.
Li, 40, will now be remanded to a secure psychiatric facility where he will receive treatment. A review panel will decide in the next six weeks which facility he will be transferred to, depending on whether he is considered a risk to others or to himself.
I have to leave this thread now.:yh_rotfl
Life is just to short for drama.
Tutters, moaners and screamers required for thread participation
I'm not sure you ever knew what the storyline was in the first place, Odie, but you've completely lost touch with it at this point. I do try to include you when you want to join in but you don't make it easy.
You're happy for it to be up to the judge in the case of Laura Lundquist but you're outraged when it's up to the judge in the case of Vince Li. Let me remind you, since you're for ever switching what you say to suit your convenience...I am shocked and outraged with this decision, sick or not, he should have been found guilty.
did I mention I hate our Canadian laws?
it seems now a days if someone is mentally ill, they get a free lifetime pass to do as they choose.
He should be committed to a mental institution for the rest of his life, rather than a no guilty charge and set free.
and no, not just for treatment, they tried that once and he released himself then slaughtered a man to death.
this time keep him for good
sick or not sick, to many mental ill patients get away with murder!
and in Canada, they have the right to walk out of any institution.
imagine that creature out again?
lock the door in the institution.
won't be doing that in Canada, judges are sucks here
lock the door and throw away the key.
they will institutional him yes, but they cannot hold him there.....To clarify who knew what and when, yes he was evaluated AFTER the killing as schizophrenic but no, he was never evaluated at all beforehand. Even what you claim from quoting that inaccurate website post is totally inconsistent, like "Vince Li's friends and specialists said he was a Paranoid Schizophrenic before the bus beheading" at the same time as "They say Li was clearly battling mental illness, but refused repeated offers to see a doctor and get help". How did "specialists" have an opinion before he killed if he hadn't seen a doctor to get help before he killed? I note again that I've seen no newspaper source for any of these claims of prior symptoms in Vince Li, just a half dozen forums copying a forum post by "Christina 123" saying it was so. I still say it's made up by someone trying to somehow imply blame, rather like your own "he released himself then slaughtered a man to death" was entirely made up too. People on forums invent stuff to suit their point of view, unless they're challenged to produce evidence of their claim. It happens all the time.
So, I'll ask you again. Why do you want the book throwing at Vince Li but you regard what poor Laura Lundquist did as "a dreadful accident"? Why don't you call Vince Li's action "a dreadful accident" too?
You're happy for it to be up to the judge in the case of Laura Lundquist but you're outraged when it's up to the judge in the case of Vince Li. Let me remind you, since you're for ever switching what you say to suit your convenience...I am shocked and outraged with this decision, sick or not, he should have been found guilty.
did I mention I hate our Canadian laws?
it seems now a days if someone is mentally ill, they get a free lifetime pass to do as they choose.
He should be committed to a mental institution for the rest of his life, rather than a no guilty charge and set free.
and no, not just for treatment, they tried that once and he released himself then slaughtered a man to death.
this time keep him for good
sick or not sick, to many mental ill patients get away with murder!
and in Canada, they have the right to walk out of any institution.
imagine that creature out again?
lock the door in the institution.
won't be doing that in Canada, judges are sucks here
lock the door and throw away the key.
they will institutional him yes, but they cannot hold him there.....To clarify who knew what and when, yes he was evaluated AFTER the killing as schizophrenic but no, he was never evaluated at all beforehand. Even what you claim from quoting that inaccurate website post is totally inconsistent, like "Vince Li's friends and specialists said he was a Paranoid Schizophrenic before the bus beheading" at the same time as "They say Li was clearly battling mental illness, but refused repeated offers to see a doctor and get help". How did "specialists" have an opinion before he killed if he hadn't seen a doctor to get help before he killed? I note again that I've seen no newspaper source for any of these claims of prior symptoms in Vince Li, just a half dozen forums copying a forum post by "Christina 123" saying it was so. I still say it's made up by someone trying to somehow imply blame, rather like your own "he released himself then slaughtered a man to death" was entirely made up too. People on forums invent stuff to suit their point of view, unless they're challenged to produce evidence of their claim. It happens all the time.
So, I'll ask you again. Why do you want the book throwing at Vince Li but you regard what poor Laura Lundquist did as "a dreadful accident"? Why don't you call Vince Li's action "a dreadful accident" too?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Tutters, moaners and screamers required for thread participation
spot;1272824 wrote: Might I latch onto this and in some vampyric sense drain several gallons of blood from it?
You appear, Jazzy, as though you have a new worthwhile nationwide protocol here. We have, in the reports, "all the warnings signs". That helps immeasurably. In order for the other fifty thousand nursing homes in the USA not to be guilty of ignoring them, the nursing homes ought to tick off all those behaviors against each of their residents, and ship out everyone as bad or worse into psychiatric facilities.
Do they exist in those numbers, these long-term places in psychiatric facilities? I think you're talking of hundreds of thousands of new psychiatric patients and quite a few nursing homes closing for lack of custom.
I will now speak from experience as that's the best way to explain where I'm coming from in my answer. I am in the medical field and started out as a nurses aide in a nursing home facility. The nursing home where I worked had a SEPARATE wing dedicated to the elderly with dementia or other "mental" conditions that did not allow them to be social with the others. The wing was a locked and secure area. All patients in that wing wore monitors and were attended to according to their mental state of mind. They were NEVER allowed off that floor to perhaps harm other residents. This woman who showed "warning signs" would have been immediately placed in that area. I have worked, over the years, in several nursing homes and if there wasn't a separate secure area for these people suffering from whatever mental illness,they were transfered out to a facility that could deal with them. This particular nursing home in question did nothing to protect the woman who was killed and therefore, I hold the nursing home responsible for what happened.
You appear, Jazzy, as though you have a new worthwhile nationwide protocol here. We have, in the reports, "all the warnings signs". That helps immeasurably. In order for the other fifty thousand nursing homes in the USA not to be guilty of ignoring them, the nursing homes ought to tick off all those behaviors against each of their residents, and ship out everyone as bad or worse into psychiatric facilities.
Do they exist in those numbers, these long-term places in psychiatric facilities? I think you're talking of hundreds of thousands of new psychiatric patients and quite a few nursing homes closing for lack of custom.
I will now speak from experience as that's the best way to explain where I'm coming from in my answer. I am in the medical field and started out as a nurses aide in a nursing home facility. The nursing home where I worked had a SEPARATE wing dedicated to the elderly with dementia or other "mental" conditions that did not allow them to be social with the others. The wing was a locked and secure area. All patients in that wing wore monitors and were attended to according to their mental state of mind. They were NEVER allowed off that floor to perhaps harm other residents. This woman who showed "warning signs" would have been immediately placed in that area. I have worked, over the years, in several nursing homes and if there wasn't a separate secure area for these people suffering from whatever mental illness,they were transfered out to a facility that could deal with them. This particular nursing home in question did nothing to protect the woman who was killed and therefore, I hold the nursing home responsible for what happened.
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Thank you Jazzy, that's something I'll read through several times.
Did any residents in the separate wing ever share rooms?
Did any residents in the separate wing ever share rooms?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Tutters, moaners and screamers required for thread participation
spot;1272930 wrote: Thank you Jazzy, that's something I'll read through several times.
Did any residents in the separate wing ever share rooms?
No they did not. The only time they were allowed out of their room was when they were accompanied by an aide. I, myself, was atttacked several times by a person with dementia. I have also witnessed when these type of patients see a loved one, they don't even recognize their own family. They have a fascinating mind where they can remember things that happened to them as a child but have no comprehension as to the present events. Why do they attack? I think because they are remembering something that happened to them as a child and they are acting out. Ever ask a person with dementia what day it is or who the president is or even who am I? Sadly, they revert back to the past with their answers.
Did any residents in the separate wing ever share rooms?
No they did not. The only time they were allowed out of their room was when they were accompanied by an aide. I, myself, was atttacked several times by a person with dementia. I have also witnessed when these type of patients see a loved one, they don't even recognize their own family. They have a fascinating mind where they can remember things that happened to them as a child but have no comprehension as to the present events. Why do they attack? I think because they are remembering something that happened to them as a child and they are acting out. Ever ask a person with dementia what day it is or who the president is or even who am I? Sadly, they revert back to the past with their answers.
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Jazzy;1272931 wrote: No they did not.
Could they get from one resident's room to another overnight, within the separate wing, or were they locked into their personal room for their own safety?
Could they get from one resident's room to another overnight, within the separate wing, or were they locked into their personal room for their own safety?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Tutters, moaners and screamers required for thread participation
spot;1272932 wrote: Could they get from one resident's room to another overnight, within the separate wing, or were they locked into their personal room for their own safety?
No, at night they were not able to leave their own room to get to anothers room.
It's a measure taken for not only for the safety of other resident's but for their own safety as well. These people again, have no idea where they are and that's sad to me. The "rooms" are like a hotel room and are decorated with what the family brings in or by personal pictures that the "patient" has been allowed to bring in. Most of the women have dolls that they hold all day and speak to the doll like it's their baby. The men tend to have books but they are never read, they just are there. Again, do they know what day it is? The answer is no. If they harm themselves or another person, would they know they did that? Again, the answer is no. They live in their memories of the past and unless you have had any experience with them (like I have) you have to understand that they have become children again somehow.
No, at night they were not able to leave their own room to get to anothers room.
It's a measure taken for not only for the safety of other resident's but for their own safety as well. These people again, have no idea where they are and that's sad to me. The "rooms" are like a hotel room and are decorated with what the family brings in or by personal pictures that the "patient" has been allowed to bring in. Most of the women have dolls that they hold all day and speak to the doll like it's their baby. The men tend to have books but they are never read, they just are there. Again, do they know what day it is? The answer is no. If they harm themselves or another person, would they know they did that? Again, the answer is no. They live in their memories of the past and unless you have had any experience with them (like I have) you have to understand that they have become children again somehow.
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spot;1272908 wrote: I'm not sure you ever knew what the storyline was in the first place, Odie, but you've completely lost touch with it at this point. I do try to include you when you want to join in but you don't make it easy.
You're happy for it to be up to the judge in the case of Laura Lundquist but you're outraged when it's up to the judge in the case of Vince Li. Let me remind you, since you're for ever switching what you say to suit your convenience...I am shocked and outraged with this decision, sick or not, he should have been found guilty.
did I mention I hate our Canadian laws?
it seems now a days if someone is mentally ill, they get a free lifetime pass to do as they choose.
He should be committed to a mental institution for the rest of his life, rather than a no guilty charge and set free.
and no, not just for treatment, they tried that once and he released himself then slaughtered a man to death.
this time keep him for good
sick or not sick, to many mental ill patients get away with murder!
and in Canada, they have the right to walk out of any institution.
imagine that creature out again?
lock the door in the institution.
won't be doing that in Canada, judges are sucks here
lock the door and throw away the key.
they will institutional him yes, but they cannot hold him there.....To clarify who knew what and when, yes he was evaluated AFTER the killing as schizophrenic but no, he was never evaluated at all beforehand. Even what you claim from quoting that inaccurate website post is totally inconsistent, like "Vince Li's friends and specialists said he was a Paranoid Schizophrenic before the bus beheading" at the same time as "They say Li was clearly battling mental illness, but refused repeated offers to see a doctor and get help". How did "specialists" have an opinion before he killed if he hadn't seen a doctor to get help before he killed? I note again that I've seen no newspaper source for any of these claims of prior symptoms in Vince Li, just a half dozen forums copying a forum post by "Christina 123" saying it was so. I still say it's made up by someone trying to somehow imply blame, rather like your own "he released himself then slaughtered a man to death" was entirely made up too. People on forums invent stuff to suit their point of view, unless they're challenged to produce evidence of their claim. It happens all the time.
So, I'll ask you again. Why do you want the book throwing at Vince Li but you regard what poor Laura Lundquist did as "a dreadful accident"? Why don't you call Vince Li's action "a dreadful accident" too?
Your turning everything around again, just to suit yourself.
Canadian laws? who said when or if he would be set free?
I do believe it was you who had started in on Vinci Li, so get your facts straight for once as I refuse to go over and over it again with you, as for some reason, you continually come back to this knowing full well what did take place.
Vince Li had seen doctors way before he did the bus beheading. He released himself.
your own words:
'not just for treatment, they tried that once and he released himself then slaughtered a man to death.'
so you finally agree that he was diagnosed before the bus beheading, good, your finally getting somewhere here.
and as I told you, Laura Lundquist will be dealt with by the courts decisions just like Vince Li's was.
And I am certainly not going to post an entire article here on Vince Li, as you should have already known what happened.
and Lundquist? did you think she was just admitted that day for dementia?
I'm finding all of this quite funny.:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
You're happy for it to be up to the judge in the case of Laura Lundquist but you're outraged when it's up to the judge in the case of Vince Li. Let me remind you, since you're for ever switching what you say to suit your convenience...I am shocked and outraged with this decision, sick or not, he should have been found guilty.
did I mention I hate our Canadian laws?
it seems now a days if someone is mentally ill, they get a free lifetime pass to do as they choose.
He should be committed to a mental institution for the rest of his life, rather than a no guilty charge and set free.
and no, not just for treatment, they tried that once and he released himself then slaughtered a man to death.
this time keep him for good
sick or not sick, to many mental ill patients get away with murder!
and in Canada, they have the right to walk out of any institution.
imagine that creature out again?
lock the door in the institution.
won't be doing that in Canada, judges are sucks here
lock the door and throw away the key.
they will institutional him yes, but they cannot hold him there.....To clarify who knew what and when, yes he was evaluated AFTER the killing as schizophrenic but no, he was never evaluated at all beforehand. Even what you claim from quoting that inaccurate website post is totally inconsistent, like "Vince Li's friends and specialists said he was a Paranoid Schizophrenic before the bus beheading" at the same time as "They say Li was clearly battling mental illness, but refused repeated offers to see a doctor and get help". How did "specialists" have an opinion before he killed if he hadn't seen a doctor to get help before he killed? I note again that I've seen no newspaper source for any of these claims of prior symptoms in Vince Li, just a half dozen forums copying a forum post by "Christina 123" saying it was so. I still say it's made up by someone trying to somehow imply blame, rather like your own "he released himself then slaughtered a man to death" was entirely made up too. People on forums invent stuff to suit their point of view, unless they're challenged to produce evidence of their claim. It happens all the time.
So, I'll ask you again. Why do you want the book throwing at Vince Li but you regard what poor Laura Lundquist did as "a dreadful accident"? Why don't you call Vince Li's action "a dreadful accident" too?
Your turning everything around again, just to suit yourself.
Canadian laws? who said when or if he would be set free?
I do believe it was you who had started in on Vinci Li, so get your facts straight for once as I refuse to go over and over it again with you, as for some reason, you continually come back to this knowing full well what did take place.
Vince Li had seen doctors way before he did the bus beheading. He released himself.
your own words:
'not just for treatment, they tried that once and he released himself then slaughtered a man to death.'
so you finally agree that he was diagnosed before the bus beheading, good, your finally getting somewhere here.
and as I told you, Laura Lundquist will be dealt with by the courts decisions just like Vince Li's was.
And I am certainly not going to post an entire article here on Vince Li, as you should have already known what happened.
and Lundquist? did you think she was just admitted that day for dementia?
I'm finding all of this quite funny.:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
Life is just to short for drama.
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spot;1272688 wrote: Well, no, it's not which is why I asked about drawing the line. Without a line there's no behaviour at all by anyone for which they'd be criminally responsible. Here it is again, it would be interesting to see your considered answer.You're claiming there's this spectrum of behaviour, which is fair enough. If you also draw a line through the spectrum and absolve those to one side of the line from criminal responsibility then why can't I label that side of the line with an identifying tag like "demented" or "schizophrenic".You can tag it with dementia or schizophrenia if the diagnosis fits provided its not called an illness except for moral application, IMO, however, the other side needs to move as well from punishment to treatment. In that case, the spectrum does not need a line. We can have moral illness denoting the transgression with mental treatment if thats whats needed. People who commit crimes obviously do not understand the concept of boundaries for many reasons, and they lack discretion at different levels, and thats what needs to be addressed, whether that be with morality indocrination classes or medication where necessary, or even permanent incarceration.
Rather than see crime from a punishment view and mentality from a clinical view, simply combine the two.
I don't like the idea of a death penalty because as an evolutionist I believe in order for societies to evolve culturally they must struggle with their imperfections and difficulties. That said, the group is going to do whats necessary for group viability and survival, and that I completely understand.
Rather than see crime from a punishment view and mentality from a clinical view, simply combine the two.
I don't like the idea of a death penalty because as an evolutionist I believe in order for societies to evolve culturally they must struggle with their imperfections and difficulties. That said, the group is going to do whats necessary for group viability and survival, and that I completely understand.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
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Odie;1272976 wrote: Vince Li had seen doctors way before he did the bus beheading. He released himself.
What you're disguising there is that "Li had seen doctors way before he did the bus beheading" was actually three years before, in September 2005, and that "he was never formally diagnosed with a mental disorder". 'God choose my hand to kill, I truly believe that' is the most detailed account I can find. Your comment that "you finally agree that he was diagnosed before the bus beheading, good, your finally getting somewhere here" is the complete reversal of what I'm saying. I'm saying that no, as the Winnipeg Free Press makes abundantly clear, he was never diagnosed before the bus beheading.
Neither Vince Li nor Laura Lundquist were considered by anyone to be a danger to anyone before they killed. Laura Lundquist wasn't admitted to the nursing home because she was diagnosed with dementia, she went there for the same reason other old people go to nursing homes, because she was in her 90s and frail and needed a support system.
If you can't admit the difference between your posts on Laura Lundquist ("a dreadful accident") and Vince Li ("imagine that creature out again? lock the door in the institution. won't be doing that in Canada, judges are sucks here lock the door and throw away the key.") then that's a pity. From where I'm sat they look very different.
What you're disguising there is that "Li had seen doctors way before he did the bus beheading" was actually three years before, in September 2005, and that "he was never formally diagnosed with a mental disorder". 'God choose my hand to kill, I truly believe that' is the most detailed account I can find. Your comment that "you finally agree that he was diagnosed before the bus beheading, good, your finally getting somewhere here" is the complete reversal of what I'm saying. I'm saying that no, as the Winnipeg Free Press makes abundantly clear, he was never diagnosed before the bus beheading.
Neither Vince Li nor Laura Lundquist were considered by anyone to be a danger to anyone before they killed. Laura Lundquist wasn't admitted to the nursing home because she was diagnosed with dementia, she went there for the same reason other old people go to nursing homes, because she was in her 90s and frail and needed a support system.
If you can't admit the difference between your posts on Laura Lundquist ("a dreadful accident") and Vince Li ("imagine that creature out again? lock the door in the institution. won't be doing that in Canada, judges are sucks here lock the door and throw away the key.") then that's a pity. From where I'm sat they look very different.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Tutters, moaners and screamers required for thread participation
Ahso!;1272979 wrote: You can tag it with dementia or schizophrenia if the diagnosis fits provided its not called an illness except for moral application, IMO, however, the other side needs to move as well from punishment to treatment. In that case, the spectrum does not need a line. We can have moral illness denoting the transgression with mental treatment if thats whats needed. People who commit crimes obviously do not understand the concept of boundaries for many reasons, and they lack discretion at different levels, and thats what needs to be addressed, whether that be with morality indocrination classes or medication where necessary, or even permanent incarceration.
Rather than see crime from a punishment view and mentality from a clinical view, simply combine the two.
I don't like the idea of a death penalty because as an evolutionist I believe in order for societies to evolve culturally they must struggle with their imperfections and difficulties. That said, the group is going to do whats necessary for group viability and survival, and that I completely understand.
That all makes sense if we were to agree that all crime is a consequence of "moral illness", in your terms. I think it's abundantly clear that most crime is a consequence of societal influence and has nothing to do with individual morality at all, sick or otherwise.
The criminalized person has nothing at all wrong with him other than that he's been declared to be a criminal. The entire offense lies in his setting, not his mind. Either his perfectly moral behavior has been defined by the legislative system as criminal, or his immoral behavior has been forced on him by the conditions under which he lives and over which he has no control.
But that's a statement about society, and the thread's about different categories of mental breakdown resulting in completely different empathic responses on the part of people discussing events.
Rather than see crime from a punishment view and mentality from a clinical view, simply combine the two.
I don't like the idea of a death penalty because as an evolutionist I believe in order for societies to evolve culturally they must struggle with their imperfections and difficulties. That said, the group is going to do whats necessary for group viability and survival, and that I completely understand.
That all makes sense if we were to agree that all crime is a consequence of "moral illness", in your terms. I think it's abundantly clear that most crime is a consequence of societal influence and has nothing to do with individual morality at all, sick or otherwise.
The criminalized person has nothing at all wrong with him other than that he's been declared to be a criminal. The entire offense lies in his setting, not his mind. Either his perfectly moral behavior has been defined by the legislative system as criminal, or his immoral behavior has been forced on him by the conditions under which he lives and over which he has no control.
But that's a statement about society, and the thread's about different categories of mental breakdown resulting in completely different empathic responses on the part of people discussing events.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Tutters, moaners and screamers required for thread participation
Odie, I have no idea why you keep putting the laughing dude in your posts the only thing in this thread worth laughing at that much are your own posts. You insist both murderers were pre-diagnosed, drawing a parallel, then insist that both should be treated differently, the whole while trying to make it appear that spot is the one with the contradictions by attributing your own words to him. He was bloody quoting YOU!. Kudos to spot et al for managing to continue the thread of the topic.
Nursing homes are not mental institutions. "Nursing" does not imply mental health. The normal use of the word implies physical health concerns ie) "assisted living" in regard to seniors.
Most schizophrenics don't kill people.
Suggesting that someone should have been presupposed as a murderer because s/he has schizophrenia, regardless of whether or not a diagnosis existed is... ludicrous.
I'm really interested in seeing this topic discussed reasonably. The danger of the law system is that it can be used for blanket processing of unique crimes. An assessment of criminally insane removes a criminal from that processing and treats the case uniquely. I believe anyone who commits a major crime against society is insane. That's practically the definition of insane.
Insanity may manifest as violations of societal norms, including becoming a danger to themselves and others, though not all such acts are considered insanity.wikipedia
What is insanity? It is most certainly not a scientific certainty. It is a cultural assessment.
Nursing homes are not mental institutions. "Nursing" does not imply mental health. The normal use of the word implies physical health concerns ie) "assisted living" in regard to seniors.
Most schizophrenics don't kill people.
Suggesting that someone should have been presupposed as a murderer because s/he has schizophrenia, regardless of whether or not a diagnosis existed is... ludicrous.
I'm really interested in seeing this topic discussed reasonably. The danger of the law system is that it can be used for blanket processing of unique crimes. An assessment of criminally insane removes a criminal from that processing and treats the case uniquely. I believe anyone who commits a major crime against society is insane. That's practically the definition of insane.
Insanity may manifest as violations of societal norms, including becoming a danger to themselves and others, though not all such acts are considered insanity.wikipedia
What is insanity? It is most certainly not a scientific certainty. It is a cultural assessment.
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Philosophically you sound like an individualist but in practice you seem to be a group-ist?:)
spot;1272991 wrote: That all makes sense if we were to agree that all crime is a consequence of "moral illness", in your terms. I think it's abundantly clear that most crime is a consequence of societal influence and has nothing to do with individual morality at all, sick or otherwise.Regardless of which order you put it in, lack of morality is what gets people locked up whether it be due to societal influence or not. Morality itself mutates at group will, so moral illness fits IMO.
spot;1272991 wrote: The criminalized person has nothing at all wrong with him other than that he's been declared to be a criminal. The entire offense lies in his setting, not his mind. Either his perfectly moral behavior has been defined by the legislative system as criminal, or his immoral behavior has been forced on him by the conditions under which he lives and over which he has no control.I agree entirely that there is actually nothing wrong with the criminalized person which is why the word "moral" is in moral illness.
I do think that at least here in the U.S. our morality is out-pacing our ability to obey it.
spot;1272991 wrote: That all makes sense if we were to agree that all crime is a consequence of "moral illness", in your terms. I think it's abundantly clear that most crime is a consequence of societal influence and has nothing to do with individual morality at all, sick or otherwise.Regardless of which order you put it in, lack of morality is what gets people locked up whether it be due to societal influence or not. Morality itself mutates at group will, so moral illness fits IMO.
spot;1272991 wrote: The criminalized person has nothing at all wrong with him other than that he's been declared to be a criminal. The entire offense lies in his setting, not his mind. Either his perfectly moral behavior has been defined by the legislative system as criminal, or his immoral behavior has been forced on him by the conditions under which he lives and over which he has no control.I agree entirely that there is actually nothing wrong with the criminalized person which is why the word "moral" is in moral illness.
I do think that at least here in the U.S. our morality is out-pacing our ability to obey it.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
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koan;1272992 wrote: Odie, I have no idea why you keep putting the laughing dude in your posts the only thing in this thread worth laughing at that much are your own posts. You insist both murderers were pre-diagnosed, drawing a parallel, then insist that both should be treated differently, the whole while trying to make it appear that spot is the one with the contradictions by attributing your own words to him. He was bloody quoting YOU!. Kudos to spot et al for managing to continue the thread of the topic.
Nursing homes are not mental institutions. "Nursing" does not imply mental health. The normal use of the word implies physical health concerns ie) "assisted living" in regard to seniors.
Most schizophrenics don't kill people.
Suggesting that someone should have been presupposed as a murderer because s/he has schizophrenia, regardless of whether or not a diagnosis existed is... ludicrous.
I'm really interested in seeing this topic discussed reasonably. The danger of the law system is that it can be used for blanket processing of unique crimes. An assessment of criminally insane removes a criminal from that processing and treats the case uniquely. I believe anyone who commits a major crime against society is insane. That's practically the definition of insane.
Insanity may manifest as violations of societal norms, including becoming a danger to themselves and others, though not all such acts are considered insanity.wikipedia
What is insanity? It is most certainly not a scientific certainty. It is a cultural assessment.
'Most schizophrenics don't kill people.
Suggesting that someone should have been presupposed as a murderer because s/he has schizophrenia, regardless of whether or not a diagnosis existed is... ludicrous.'
- where did I say all schizophrenics kill? I didn't.......regardless.
yes, he committed a horrific crime, I never said I doubted that as I brought the attention up on this hideous crime on my own thread.
'Nursing homes are not mental institutions.'
When did I ever say a nursing home was a mental institution?
-Koan, now that I did laugh at. My mom is in a nursing home with Alzheimer's.
And where did I say they should or shouldn't be treated differently?
I said, its up to the courts.
you can discuss about either of them as to what should/shouldn't be done to each.
- I am not getting involved with that discussion, as I was condemned before from Spot, so frankly I refuse to tackle that all over again.
Nursing homes are not mental institutions. "Nursing" does not imply mental health. The normal use of the word implies physical health concerns ie) "assisted living" in regard to seniors.
Most schizophrenics don't kill people.
Suggesting that someone should have been presupposed as a murderer because s/he has schizophrenia, regardless of whether or not a diagnosis existed is... ludicrous.
I'm really interested in seeing this topic discussed reasonably. The danger of the law system is that it can be used for blanket processing of unique crimes. An assessment of criminally insane removes a criminal from that processing and treats the case uniquely. I believe anyone who commits a major crime against society is insane. That's practically the definition of insane.
Insanity may manifest as violations of societal norms, including becoming a danger to themselves and others, though not all such acts are considered insanity.wikipedia
What is insanity? It is most certainly not a scientific certainty. It is a cultural assessment.
'Most schizophrenics don't kill people.
Suggesting that someone should have been presupposed as a murderer because s/he has schizophrenia, regardless of whether or not a diagnosis existed is... ludicrous.'
- where did I say all schizophrenics kill? I didn't.......regardless.
yes, he committed a horrific crime, I never said I doubted that as I brought the attention up on this hideous crime on my own thread.
'Nursing homes are not mental institutions.'
When did I ever say a nursing home was a mental institution?
-Koan, now that I did laugh at. My mom is in a nursing home with Alzheimer's.
And where did I say they should or shouldn't be treated differently?
I said, its up to the courts.
you can discuss about either of them as to what should/shouldn't be done to each.
- I am not getting involved with that discussion, as I was condemned before from Spot, so frankly I refuse to tackle that all over again.
Life is just to short for drama.
-
fuzzywuzzy
- Posts: 6596
- Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:35 pm
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I'm not a tutterer but I am a tsk-er'
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fuzzywuzzy;1273032 wrote: I'm not a tutterer but I am a tsk-er'
Seriously? I'm going to have to completely remodel my mental image of you. Tsk-ing when you ought to be moaning or screaming is a huge shift.
Tut.
Seriously? I'm going to have to completely remodel my mental image of you. Tsk-ing when you ought to be moaning or screaming is a huge shift.
Tut.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Tutters, moaners and screamers required for thread participation
Odie;1272716 wrote: She didn't slip through the net, she was in a nursing home becasue she had dementia.
it was as said, a dreadful accident.
The others discussed in previous threads were on the streets and people knew about their mental sicknesses.
big big difference.
Odie;1273023 wrote: 'Most schizophrenics don't kill people.
Suggesting that someone should have been presupposed as a murderer because s/he has schizophrenia, regardless of whether or not a diagnosis existed is... ludicrous.'
- where did I say all schizophrenics kill? I didn't.......regardless.
[requote]The others discussed in previous threads were on the streets and people knew about their mental sicknesses.[/requote]
yes, he committed a horrific crime, I never said I doubted that as I brought the attention up on this hideous crime on my own thread.
'Nursing homes are not mental institutions.'
When did I ever say a nursing home was a mental institution?
[requote]She didn't slip through the net, she was in a nursing home becasue she had dementia.[/requote]
-Koan, now that I did laugh at. My mom is in a nursing home with Alzheimer's.
[advice]stop laughing at your own lack of recall[/advice]
And where did I say they should or shouldn't be treated differently?
I said, its up to the courts.
you can discuss about either of them as to what should/shouldn't be done to each.
- I am not getting involved with that discussion, as I was condemned before from Spot, so frankly I refuse to tackle that all over again.
Can we be done with the denial now?
it was as said, a dreadful accident.
The others discussed in previous threads were on the streets and people knew about their mental sicknesses.
big big difference.
Odie;1273023 wrote: 'Most schizophrenics don't kill people.
Suggesting that someone should have been presupposed as a murderer because s/he has schizophrenia, regardless of whether or not a diagnosis existed is... ludicrous.'
- where did I say all schizophrenics kill? I didn't.......regardless.
[requote]The others discussed in previous threads were on the streets and people knew about their mental sicknesses.[/requote]
yes, he committed a horrific crime, I never said I doubted that as I brought the attention up on this hideous crime on my own thread.
'Nursing homes are not mental institutions.'
When did I ever say a nursing home was a mental institution?
[requote]She didn't slip through the net, she was in a nursing home becasue she had dementia.[/requote]
-Koan, now that I did laugh at. My mom is in a nursing home with Alzheimer's.
[advice]stop laughing at your own lack of recall[/advice]
And where did I say they should or shouldn't be treated differently?
I said, its up to the courts.
you can discuss about either of them as to what should/shouldn't be done to each.
- I am not getting involved with that discussion, as I was condemned before from Spot, so frankly I refuse to tackle that all over again.
Can we be done with the denial now?
Tutters, moaners and screamers required for thread participation
koan;1273045 wrote: Can we be done with the denial now?
- where did I say all schizophrenics kill? I didn't.......regardless.
[requote]The others discussed in previous threads were on the streets and people knew about their mental sicknesses.[/requote]
- just where did I say others committed murder in that sentence?
I'm in denial?
I'm done with this.
- where did I say all schizophrenics kill? I didn't.......regardless.
[requote]The others discussed in previous threads were on the streets and people knew about their mental sicknesses.[/requote]
- just where did I say others committed murder in that sentence?
I'm in denial?
I'm done with this.
Life is just to short for drama.
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Ahso!;1273004 wrote: Philosophically you sound like an individualist but in practice you seem to be a group-ist?:)
I hope, by my saying that, you or anyone else doesn't think I was calling you a hypocrite, I wasn't. I think its a remarkable quality to be able to crossover between the two with the ease you seem to be able to do it and have as much clarity about both that you seem to possess. I doubt many others can achieve that. I don't think I can!:)
I hope, by my saying that, you or anyone else doesn't think I was calling you a hypocrite, I wasn't. I think its a remarkable quality to be able to crossover between the two with the ease you seem to be able to do it and have as much clarity about both that you seem to possess. I doubt many others can achieve that. I don't think I can!:)
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Tutters, moaners and screamers required for thread participation
Odie;1273046 wrote: - where did I say all schizophrenics kill? I didn't.......regardless.No, you didn't. Nobody accused you of saying it either. You were reacting to "most schizophrenics don't kill". We're pointing out your insistence that someone has been at fault when a schizophrenic kills, contrasted to your insistence that nobody's at fault (it was "a dreadful accident") when someone with dementia kills. If a schizophrenic was "on the streets and people knew about their mental sicknesses" you want the key throwing away and no release in the event of their being cured, it's not "a dreadful accident", it's blameworthy. Vince Li is, in your opinion, a criminal. Laura Lundquist, on the other hand, has had "a dreadful accident".
I think we're asking you why you see a killing by someone with dementia as "a dreadful accident" but a killing by someone with schizophrenia as a crime. What you said of Vince Li was that you were "shocked and outraged with this decision, sick or not, he should have been found guilty. it seems now a days if someone is mentally ill, they get a free lifetime pass to do as they choose. He should be committed to a mental institution for the rest of his life". The contrast between that and "a dreadful accident" is what I asked you about. Why are these two illnesses so completely different, in your opinion, that you can react so differently to these cases?
I think we're asking you why you see a killing by someone with dementia as "a dreadful accident" but a killing by someone with schizophrenia as a crime. What you said of Vince Li was that you were "shocked and outraged with this decision, sick or not, he should have been found guilty. it seems now a days if someone is mentally ill, they get a free lifetime pass to do as they choose. He should be committed to a mental institution for the rest of his life". The contrast between that and "a dreadful accident" is what I asked you about. Why are these two illnesses so completely different, in your opinion, that you can react so differently to these cases?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Tutters, moaners and screamers required for thread participation
as said, I'm done here, I refuse to take bashing from anyone.
Life is just to short for drama.
Tutters, moaners and screamers required for thread participation
Odie;1273120 wrote: as said, I'm done here, I don't need bashing from anyone nor do I need to take it.;)Odie, honestly, I've been watching this thread pretty carefully, and no one is bashing you or anyone else. Some of the comments have been fairly straight forward, but Spot has given you a rather good and respectful accounting in his latest post.
Sometimes, after I post I don't realize that there isn't as much clarity in my thoughts as I thought there was. Perhaps its simply because the transference from my head, through my hand and onto the monitor changes how I express myself and sometimes I'm just not as clear about something as I thought I was.
Spot has been, with care, attempting to help you find clarity in your thoughts. If anything, hes being a friend. Perhaps you just need to step back and take a fresh look. Nobody is out to get you. If I thought they were I'd be on your side in a heartbeat. Anyone here who knows me, knows that.
Sometimes, after I post I don't realize that there isn't as much clarity in my thoughts as I thought there was. Perhaps its simply because the transference from my head, through my hand and onto the monitor changes how I express myself and sometimes I'm just not as clear about something as I thought I was.
Spot has been, with care, attempting to help you find clarity in your thoughts. If anything, hes being a friend. Perhaps you just need to step back and take a fresh look. Nobody is out to get you. If I thought they were I'd be on your side in a heartbeat. Anyone here who knows me, knows that.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Tutters, moaners and screamers required for thread participation
Odie;1273120 wrote: as said, I'm done here, I refuse to take bashing from anyone.
There are two kinds of discussion of forums, odie. One goes "I'm right" "no you're not" "yes I am" "no you're not" "yes I am" "no you're not" "yes I am" "no you're not" "yes I am" and the other goes "I'm right" "why?" "because". Followed, if you're very lucky, by several "yes but"s which tease apart the finer detail of the issue.
I keep offering you the "why?" but you keep refusing to provide a "because". Which is sad, because I really am interested to know what your "because" is.
The "why?" in this thread, in case you've missed it so far, is "Why are these two illnesses so completely different, in your opinion, that you can react so differently to these cases?"
There are two kinds of discussion of forums, odie. One goes "I'm right" "no you're not" "yes I am" "no you're not" "yes I am" "no you're not" "yes I am" "no you're not" "yes I am" and the other goes "I'm right" "why?" "because". Followed, if you're very lucky, by several "yes but"s which tease apart the finer detail of the issue.
I keep offering you the "why?" but you keep refusing to provide a "because". Which is sad, because I really am interested to know what your "because" is.
The "why?" in this thread, in case you've missed it so far, is "Why are these two illnesses so completely different, in your opinion, that you can react so differently to these cases?"
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Tutters, moaners and screamers required for thread participation
I find this a facinating thread but somewhere along the line I feel like its' been derailed. What exactly are we discussing now? :-3
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Jazzy;1273175 wrote: I find this a facinating thread but somewhere along the line I feel like its' been derailed. What exactly are we discussing now? :-3What do you find fascinating about it, Jazzy?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Tutters, moaners and screamers required for thread participation
Jazzy;1273175 wrote: I find this a facinating thread but somewhere along the line I feel like its' been derailed. What exactly are we discussing now? :-3
What we're discussing now is "What would we like to see done to a woman who kills her room mate by tying a plastic bag round the room mate's head to suffocate her?", which is reasonable enough since that was the question in the opening post.
Having had a few responses, we've compared them to the ones we had in the Vince Li thread and asked why there's such a vivid difference of opinion. We've not quite got to the bottom of that part.
We also have the extraordinary description of nursing home rooms for those diagnosed with dementia which you've posted, I'm still re-reading that. I've never in my life heard of that sort of provision in a nursing home, it sounds much more like a prison environment. I've been looking for online adverts for nursing homes for such residents and I still can't find any advertised which have that level of security on offer.
What we're discussing now is "What would we like to see done to a woman who kills her room mate by tying a plastic bag round the room mate's head to suffocate her?", which is reasonable enough since that was the question in the opening post.
Having had a few responses, we've compared them to the ones we had in the Vince Li thread and asked why there's such a vivid difference of opinion. We've not quite got to the bottom of that part.
We also have the extraordinary description of nursing home rooms for those diagnosed with dementia which you've posted, I'm still re-reading that. I've never in my life heard of that sort of provision in a nursing home, it sounds much more like a prison environment. I've been looking for online adverts for nursing homes for such residents and I still can't find any advertised which have that level of security on offer.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Tutters, moaners and screamers required for thread participation
spot;1273184 wrote: What we're discussing now is "What would we like to see done to a woman who kills her room mate by tying a plastic bag round the room mate's head to suffocate her?", which is reasonable enough since that was the question in the opening post.
Having had a few responses, we've compared them to the ones we had in the Vince Li thread and asked why there's such a vivid difference of opinion. We've not quite got to the bottom of that part.
We also have the extraordinary description of nursing home rooms for those diagnosed with dementia which you've posted, I'm still re-reading that. I've never in my life heard of that sort of provision in a nursing home, it sounds much more like a prison environment. I've been looking for online adverts for nursing homes for such residents and I still can't find any advertised which have that level of security on offer.
random quick google, lots of junk - try nursing homes locked facilities.
Guidelines for Locked Nursing Home Units
Having had a few responses, we've compared them to the ones we had in the Vince Li thread and asked why there's such a vivid difference of opinion. We've not quite got to the bottom of that part.
We also have the extraordinary description of nursing home rooms for those diagnosed with dementia which you've posted, I'm still re-reading that. I've never in my life heard of that sort of provision in a nursing home, it sounds much more like a prison environment. I've been looking for online adverts for nursing homes for such residents and I still can't find any advertised which have that level of security on offer.
random quick google, lots of junk - try nursing homes locked facilities.
Guidelines for Locked Nursing Home Units
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
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That's a neat link flopster, it shows how hard it would be to get permission to run a unit with that sort of lock-down provision.
I still can't find any nursing homes offering special wings like it. Anybody found one yet?
I still can't find any nursing homes offering special wings like it. Anybody found one yet?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Tutters, moaners and screamers required for thread participation
Assisted living facilities in general are not locked as the residents are still able to get around on their own, same applies for retirement homes. Yes they may have a few beds that are in a locked area but that is rare as you have to be licenced as a SNF (Skilled Nursing Facility) to be a locked unit or have a wing for treating Alzheimer's patients, or be part of a Hospital. Most facilities will not list that they are locked you have to make a site visit and ask the question.
This is a unit in San Diego that offers a locked unit:
Alzheimer's/Memory Care - Encinitas, CA - Somerford Place Encinitas
[QUOTE]
Types of Facilities:
SNF: Freestanding Skilled Nursing Facility D/P SNF: Distinct Part Skilled Nursing Facility (Part of a Hospital) ICF: Intermediate Care Facility
SNF (CC): Continuing Care Contract Facility (Life Care) Subacute: A Subacute section of a hospital or SNF RCF: Residential Care Facility
SNF (IMD): Institutions for Mental Disease
Medi-Cal and Medicare Certification Status:
Medi-Cal is important any time finances are limited. A facility that is part of this program at the time of admission is not permitted to discharge a resident for running out of money and switching from private-pay to Medi-Cal. The DHS data is sometimes not updated immediately — it is important to double-check this information with the facilities you are considering.
Services:
This information comes from facility responses to questionnaires sent out by CANHR. While it is often useful to begin by calling facilities listing the services you are seeking, please call the facility to verify that services are still being offered. Some facilities may offer services they have not listed.
It is important to ask questions about any units, services, or programs that facilities say are "special," especially if the rates for these are higher. "Special services, goals, or programs"may be identical to those required in all units by state and federal law.
Note the data of the survey data — Services data is likely to be most accurate for the facilities whose responses are most recent. Please encourage facilities to send any corrections or additions to CANHR.
Rehab Unit or services indicates that a facility has specialized programs for rehabilitation, possibly including strokes, head injuries, hip replacement and other conditions.
A Wanderer Alert system is an alarm system to alert facility staff when a resident tries to exit. These systems can be effective at curtailing dangerous wandering behavior in residents with dementia. However, facilities that say they have such a security system may not have it on all the time or in all units. Be sure to ask about when and where the system is in effect.
Locked Wards are completely secured and may require a conservatorship before admission.
Alzheimer's Unit is not specifically defined by the State Dept. of Health Services as having to provide any special or different programs. While some Alzheimer's units may have staff and activities more attuned to Alzheimer's residents, facilities do not have to do anything special to call a unit an "Alzheimer's Unit."
Types of Residents Accepted or Not Accepted: Facilities should only accept residents for whom they can provide proper care. Some resident conditions require special accommodations. This data shows whether the facility can accommodate several types of special resident conditions. The key for this data is as follows:
AIDS|ARC (A)
Alzheimer (B)
Developmentally Disabled (C)
Feeding Tube (D)
Hospice (E)
I.V. Patients (F)
Non-Elderly (G) No longer used (H)
Oxygen Dependent (I)
Psychiatric [primary] (J)
Psychiatric [secondary] (K)
Respite (L)
Tracheotomy (M)
Ventilator (N) Wanderers (O)
Age 18-30 (P)
ALS / Lou Gehrig's Disease (Q)
Huntington's (R)
Multiple Sclerosis (S)
Spinal Cord Injury (T)
Wound Care (U)
Medically Complex (V)
[/QUOTE]
This is a unit in San Diego that offers a locked unit:
Alzheimer's/Memory Care - Encinitas, CA - Somerford Place Encinitas
[QUOTE]
Types of Facilities:
SNF: Freestanding Skilled Nursing Facility D/P SNF: Distinct Part Skilled Nursing Facility (Part of a Hospital) ICF: Intermediate Care Facility
SNF (CC): Continuing Care Contract Facility (Life Care) Subacute: A Subacute section of a hospital or SNF RCF: Residential Care Facility
SNF (IMD): Institutions for Mental Disease
Medi-Cal and Medicare Certification Status:
Medi-Cal is important any time finances are limited. A facility that is part of this program at the time of admission is not permitted to discharge a resident for running out of money and switching from private-pay to Medi-Cal. The DHS data is sometimes not updated immediately — it is important to double-check this information with the facilities you are considering.
Services:
This information comes from facility responses to questionnaires sent out by CANHR. While it is often useful to begin by calling facilities listing the services you are seeking, please call the facility to verify that services are still being offered. Some facilities may offer services they have not listed.
It is important to ask questions about any units, services, or programs that facilities say are "special," especially if the rates for these are higher. "Special services, goals, or programs"may be identical to those required in all units by state and federal law.
Note the data of the survey data — Services data is likely to be most accurate for the facilities whose responses are most recent. Please encourage facilities to send any corrections or additions to CANHR.
Rehab Unit or services indicates that a facility has specialized programs for rehabilitation, possibly including strokes, head injuries, hip replacement and other conditions.
A Wanderer Alert system is an alarm system to alert facility staff when a resident tries to exit. These systems can be effective at curtailing dangerous wandering behavior in residents with dementia. However, facilities that say they have such a security system may not have it on all the time or in all units. Be sure to ask about when and where the system is in effect.
Locked Wards are completely secured and may require a conservatorship before admission.
Alzheimer's Unit is not specifically defined by the State Dept. of Health Services as having to provide any special or different programs. While some Alzheimer's units may have staff and activities more attuned to Alzheimer's residents, facilities do not have to do anything special to call a unit an "Alzheimer's Unit."
Types of Residents Accepted or Not Accepted: Facilities should only accept residents for whom they can provide proper care. Some resident conditions require special accommodations. This data shows whether the facility can accommodate several types of special resident conditions. The key for this data is as follows:
AIDS|ARC (A)
Alzheimer (B)
Developmentally Disabled (C)
Feeding Tube (D)
Hospice (E)
I.V. Patients (F)
Non-Elderly (G) No longer used (H)
Oxygen Dependent (I)
Psychiatric [primary] (J)
Psychiatric [secondary] (K)
Respite (L)
Tracheotomy (M)
Ventilator (N) Wanderers (O)
Age 18-30 (P)
ALS / Lou Gehrig's Disease (Q)
Huntington's (R)
Multiple Sclerosis (S)
Spinal Cord Injury (T)
Wound Care (U)
Medically Complex (V)
[/QUOTE]
ALOHA!!
MOTTO TO LIVE BY:
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, champagne in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming.
WOO HOO!!, what a ride!!!"
MOTTO TO LIVE BY:
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, champagne in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming.
WOO HOO!!, what a ride!!!"
Tutters, moaners and screamers required for thread participation
I think the difference of treatment between the two criminals might have to do with whether the fence is to keep people out or keep people in, so to speak.
I see jails as a tool for keeping people who are a threat to society out of society until, ideally, they are resocialized. If the jail is seen as a punishment for crimes committed then it becomes more questionable when one criminal appeals more to the public for sympathy.
If every crime is unique then every criminal should be treated uniquely. A prison as a tool of punishment does not do that. A prison as a segregation tool allows for that but the prison itself should not be a form of punishment the unique treatment has to come from the type of treatment that people get in mental institutes. To segregate without treatment is rather useless and a waste of money. To not segregate someone who is a threat to society wastes no money but denies the need for a justice system at all.
I see jails as a tool for keeping people who are a threat to society out of society until, ideally, they are resocialized. If the jail is seen as a punishment for crimes committed then it becomes more questionable when one criminal appeals more to the public for sympathy.
If every crime is unique then every criminal should be treated uniquely. A prison as a tool of punishment does not do that. A prison as a segregation tool allows for that but the prison itself should not be a form of punishment the unique treatment has to come from the type of treatment that people get in mental institutes. To segregate without treatment is rather useless and a waste of money. To not segregate someone who is a threat to society wastes no money but denies the need for a justice system at all.
Tutters, moaners and screamers required for thread participation
CARLA;1273283 wrote: Assisted living facilities in general are not locked as the residents are still able to get around on their own, same applies for retirement homes. Yes they may have a few beds that are in a locked are but that is rare as you have to be licenced as a SNF (Skilled Nursing Facility) to be a locked unit or have a wing for treating Alzheimer's patients, or be part of a Hospital. Thank you Carla. There really is a lot of difference between the US and UK.
Here's a few words I pulled off the British Medical Journal:Older people requiring residential care are being classified according to a taxonomy that has existed, in custom and practice, since the National Assistance Act 1948. A minority of care homes and nursing homes is designated for elderly mentally infirm people; most are for people who are not elderly mentally infirm, or, in the case of nursing homes, for frail elderly people. The term "elderly mentally infirm" is undefined and extraordinarily plastic. It is sometimes limited to people with dementia, sometimes extended to other mental illnesses.
Homes for such patients are more highly staffed and can demand higher fees than other homes, but they are rare, and often full. Elderly mentally infirm patients wait in hospital beds longer. Social workers tend to imply that elderly mentally infirm means, additionally, having behavioural problems. Patients with quiet dementia are thus excluded from specialist care.That suggests, to me, that most UK nursing homes are just that. These lock-down spaces, it strikes me, are both rare and specialized in this country.
The other bit that strikes me is that the UK have care homes, which have no resident medical cover, and nursing homes which do. I'm quite sure I over-simplify, but "residential care homes" and "residential nursing homes" are quite distinct places here.
Here's a few words I pulled off the British Medical Journal:Older people requiring residential care are being classified according to a taxonomy that has existed, in custom and practice, since the National Assistance Act 1948. A minority of care homes and nursing homes is designated for elderly mentally infirm people; most are for people who are not elderly mentally infirm, or, in the case of nursing homes, for frail elderly people. The term "elderly mentally infirm" is undefined and extraordinarily plastic. It is sometimes limited to people with dementia, sometimes extended to other mental illnesses.
Homes for such patients are more highly staffed and can demand higher fees than other homes, but they are rare, and often full. Elderly mentally infirm patients wait in hospital beds longer. Social workers tend to imply that elderly mentally infirm means, additionally, having behavioural problems. Patients with quiet dementia are thus excluded from specialist care.That suggests, to me, that most UK nursing homes are just that. These lock-down spaces, it strikes me, are both rare and specialized in this country.
The other bit that strikes me is that the UK have care homes, which have no resident medical cover, and nursing homes which do. I'm quite sure I over-simplify, but "residential care homes" and "residential nursing homes" are quite distinct places here.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Tutters, moaners and screamers required for thread participation
Ooooh look, we got one just down the road too.The 84-year-old was held at Melksham police station, but was released on police bail. A police spokesman said: "Due to the age and vulnerability of the arrested person, special attention within our custody unit was paid to her welfare and to accommodate her needs. Following examination by medical professionals, she was not interviewed but has been granted police bail to reappear in January 2010."
The home in the village of Longbridge Deverill specialises in caring for the elderly and people with mental health needs.
BBC News - Wiltshire care home death suspect, 84, arrested
So. Definitely old and maybe not the sharpest bulb in the deck either.
The home in the village of Longbridge Deverill specialises in caring for the elderly and people with mental health needs.
BBC News - Wiltshire care home death suspect, 84, arrested
So. Definitely old and maybe not the sharpest bulb in the deck either.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Tutters, moaners and screamers required for thread participation
When I get put in a facility I will demand a private room, or have my side of the room at night rigged with trip wire. :wah:
ALOHA!!
MOTTO TO LIVE BY:
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, champagne in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming.
WOO HOO!!, what a ride!!!"
MOTTO TO LIVE BY:
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, champagne in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming.
WOO HOO!!, what a ride!!!"
Tutters, moaners and screamers required for thread participation
I note that Laura Lundquist still hasn't appeared before a jury, unless I missed the news. Maybe the court's hoping she'll run out of road before they'll be forced to pass judgement. "Lundquist is still undergoing a mental-health evaluation at Taunton State Hospital" as of this May.
Her room-mate's son, meanwhile, is suing her for... I'm not quite sure what he's suing her for, actually. His lawyer (who'd also like money from the nursing home) was nowhere near wanting retribution by the sound of it, saying "My focus is on those people who were supposed to keep both women protected. Believe it or not, this 98-year-old woman is a victim, as well. All (Brandon Woods) had to do was provide for safety, we're not talking about open-heart surgery or end-of-life decisions. It's about day to day living in a residential facility".
Her room-mate's son, meanwhile, is suing her for... I'm not quite sure what he's suing her for, actually. His lawyer (who'd also like money from the nursing home) was nowhere near wanting retribution by the sound of it, saying "My focus is on those people who were supposed to keep both women protected. Believe it or not, this 98-year-old woman is a victim, as well. All (Brandon Woods) had to do was provide for safety, we're not talking about open-heart surgery or end-of-life decisions. It's about day to day living in a residential facility".
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.