Did god massacre those babies?

Infinite Stop · Post by **Infinite Stop** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:14 pm

One thing that has always bothered me about Christianity is the massacre of babies at Herod's behest in an attempt to kill the Christ child, as recorded in Mathew, 2:16-18. I realize that many would say that Herod & associates were responsible for the death of those babes, but I don't see it that way. In the Bible God is allegedly omniscient:

Job 37:16 Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who is perfect in knowledge?

Psalms 147:5 Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.

Proverbs 15:3 The eyes of the LORD are everywhere, keeping watch on the wicked and the good.

...to give just a few scriptural examples of that omniscience.

Now the way I see it, God is ultimately responsible for the death of those babies. God, knowing the inevitable outcome, nevertheless determined His birth at a time and place that resulted in a baby massacre. Amazing that God could not even be born without causing such a tragedy, especially when we recall that billions have been born with no more serious consequence than a spank and a cry.

How can I believe that God has the power and "intellect" to engineer a plan of salvation for all mankind when that God did not even have the power and intellect to engineer a simple birth? And how can I trust in God's moral supremacy to forgive sin, when His own reckless and cavalier behavior resulted in a massacre of babies?

Anyone in here that can shine some light on the subject?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:18 pm

No, god didn't massacre those babies. If the story is factual, which is doubtful, it was belief in god that killed them.

Post by **spot** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:19 pm

Come closer to the present day. Take the Boxing Day tsunami and its quarter of a million dead.

The dogma of the church is that the ways of God are not to be judged by man. I say that's a cheap get-out. I say it's legitimate to ask what sort of a beast this mythical God would be if He actually existed with the autonomy to influence such an event, despite which such an event occurred. A reasonable description of such a beast would be "morally bad". Which, given general agreement on the meaning of the words "God" and "bad", means there can be no such beast. Something's wrong with the definition of at least one of the words, and I don't think "bad" is the one to blame.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:29 pm

Ahso!;1388139 wrote: No, god didn't massacre those babies. If the story is factual, which is doubtful, it was belief in god that killed them. Good evening Ahso... How lovely to see you back.

Infinite Stop · Post by **Infinite Stop** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:29 pm

Ahso!;1388139 wrote: No, god didn't massacre those babies. If the story is factual, which is doubtful, it was belief in god that killed them.

But that's not what the Bible says. Herod didn't slaughter those babies because he had a "belief in God," as you say. According to Mathew, prophecy was fulfilled as a result of that slaughter. But if that's true, then the omniscient God would have known of that outcome, at least from the time He revealed it to the prophets, who in turn, conveyed that divine knowledge to humanity. If the prophets knew of the slaughter far in advance, then God most certainly did too.

What am I to think? Is God really that inept, or callous when it comes to babies? Or was it perhaps that a bunch of dead babies was worth the salvation of mankind?

Infinite Stop · Post by **Infinite Stop** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:33 pm

spot;1388140 wrote: Come closer to the present day. Take the Boxing Day tsunami and its quarter of a million dead.

The dogma of the church is that the ways of God are not to be judged by man. I say that's a cheap get-out. I say it's legitimate to ask what sort of a beast this mythical God would be if He actually existed with the autonomy to influence such an event, despite which such an event occurred. A reasonable description of such a beast would be "morally bad". Which, given general agreement on the meaning of the words "God" and "bad", means there can be no such beast. Something's wrong with the definition of the at least one of the words, and I don't think "bad" is the one to blame.

I guess you and I are pretty-much in agreement. This is just one of the many anomalies of Christianity that drives me nuts. Only to a Christian can nonsense like this make sense.

Infinite Stop · Post by **Infinite Stop** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:37 pm

oscar;1388145 wrote: Good evening Ahso... How lovely to see you back.

What? You applaud his "C-" response, but you disregard my post? You must be a true believer. LOL

I'm just kidding around. Don't take me too seriously.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:45 pm

Infinite Stop;1388146 wrote: But that's not what the Bible says. Herod didn't slaughter those babies because he had a "belief in God," as you say. According to Mathew, prophecy was fulfilled as a result of that slaughter. But if that's true, then the omniscient God would have known of that outcome, at least from the time He revealed it to the prophets, who in turn, conveyed that divine knowledge to humanity. If the prophets knew of the slaughter far in advance, then God most certainly did too.

What am I to think? Is God really that inept, or callous when it comes to babies? Or was it perhaps that a bunch of dead babies was worth the salvation of mankind?We know the Magi were believers and Herod was a believer of some mythical god or gods as well. God, as a living entity does not exist, never has, and therefore it is belief in god and gods that drives people to kill, in a religious context.

All that said, people kill because they see an advantage to it or else they wouldn't kill, so religion is not the sole reason for killing, all sorts of delusional excuses offer up the permission.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:02 pm

Infinite Stop;1388152 wrote: What? You applaud his "C-" response, but you disregard my post? You must be a true believer. LOL

I'm just kidding around. Don't take me too seriously. Don't be offended... I read your threads with Interest... that's more than I do with some here :wah:

Infinite Stop · Post by **Infinite Stop** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:07 pm

Ahso!;1388155 wrote: We know the Magi were believers and Herod was a believer of some mythical god or gods as well. God, as a living entity does not exist, never has, and therefore it is belief in god and gods that drives people to kill, in a religious context.

All that said, people kill because they see an advantage to it or else they wouldn't kill, so religion is not the sole reason for killing, all sorts of delusional excuses offer up the permission.

Here's what the bible says about Herod's motives for infanticide:

1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem 2 and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

3 When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 When he had called together all the people’s chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Messiah was to be born. 5 “In Bethlehem in Judea,” they replied, “for this is what the prophet has written:

6 “‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,

are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;

for out of you will come a ruler

who will shepherd my people Israel.’”

It's clear to me that Herod's motives were pragmatic and political, and not confined to any specific religious belief in any god or gods, as you suggest. To your credit, you do admit that "religion is not the sole reason for killing." However, none of what you have said here is even relevant to the question of god's culpabililty in regard to that baby massacre. It doesn't matter one iota why Herod killed those babes; more importantly God KNEW that Herod would kill those babies in an attempt to kill the Christ child. And to me, that renders God either very inept, or a murderer, and therefore inefficacious when it comes to my salvation. God is either too stupid and powerless, or morally bankrupt, and not fit to forgive anyone. If God had just picked any old time at random to be born, odds were billions to one in His favor of not causing a baby massacre. Yet the God of the elements and our salvation bumbles into life no better than a serial killer, leaving a senseless wake of destruction trailing His path of universal salvation. And to many Christians this seems plausible. Amazing.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:20 pm

The Magi believed the King of the Jews was born because they believed in the prophecy, that makes them religious. Whether or not you want to stipulate that Herod was religious isn't important. Belief caused the Magi to announce the birth of the Christ and therefore by extension, if you prefer, caused the baby murders. Herod must had seen some sort of credence in the prophecy in the birth of Jesus to be the future king of the Jews as well or he would not have panicked and gone on his rampage.

Again, it's merely a story.

Post by **spot** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:46 pm

The reason these conundrums exist is that people nowadays have been stuck for so long with a way of thinking about God they don't even recognize it as an inbuilt assumption any longer. I reckon the core, time and again, is that the bible embodies how a long-dead bunch of people wanted to portray their society and their history and their notions. One of their notions was this all-powerful God they thought existed. The historical overlay of belief ever since is that what they wrote was the truth. What they actually wrote was what they wanted people to adopt as truth. You can take every one of the monotheist religions and the same's true of all of them.

Walk away from this locked mindset that if it's in the bible it's true. What you end up with is a lot more interesting, it's a preserved history of what opinion-setters once upon a time wanted to establish as the truth. Uncovering why they wanted those ideas to be accepted as truth is there for the taking.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:54 pm

Uncovering why they wanted those ideas to be accepted as truth is there for the taking.
I think the word you're looking for is "control". Hebrews call it the "Law". A bonding of the Jewish people. It was written for them after all. I doubt they ever expected the whole world might be affected. It was written for them, exclusively.

Infinite Stop · Post by **Infinite Stop** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:59 pm

Ahso!;1388162 wrote: The Magi believed the King of the Jews was born because they believed in the prophecy, that makes them religious. Whether or not you want to stipulate that Herod was religious isn't important. Belief caused the Magi to announce the birth of the Christ and therefore by extension, if you prefer, caused the baby murders. Herod must had seen some sort of credence in the prophecy in the birth of Jesus to be the future king of the Jews as well or he would not have panicked and gone on his rampage.

Again, it's merely a story.

First, I'll comment on your last line, and say that there are millions of Christians that would disagree with you. It's not merely "a story," it's the "word of God," and part of God's plan of salvation in Christ.

You are missing the point. It doesn't matter what Herod or the Magi believed. It's what God knew that matters. And what did God know? He knew that as a result of His reckless birth dozens(?) of babies would be slaughtered. And WHY? I ask. Was the all-knowing/all-powerful God incapable of doing what billions of mothers have done throughout history by birthing without causing a massacre of innocents? God took the time to walk on water, pluck a coin from a fishes mouth, and change water into wine, but it was too much bother to be born without causing massive death, even though blindfolded and drunk the odds were billions to one in His favor of a non-lethal birth.

I think at this point I can safely agree with you. Yes, it is merely a story. But more than that, Christians, it is a blasphemous and insane thing to say about a supremely wise, all-knowing, all-powerful God that was--allegedly--capable of devising man's salvation from eternity, not to mention the universe itself.

Crazy. Just crazy.

Post by **spot** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:03 pm

AnneBoleyn;1388176 wrote: I think the word you're looking for is "control". Hebrews call it the "Law". A bonding of the Jewish people. It was written for them after all. I doubt they ever expected the whole world might be affected. It was written for them, exclusively.

But then there's the question of who they were - the bible was written within in a surprisingly narrow band of time, as were the gospels and the koran and the golden slate translations - and what they were trying to change by writing it. Throwing out the fundamentalist assumption that they wrote what God dictated - bible or koran or buried golden slates - unearths those gaping questions which theologians tend to avoid.