Times they are a changing........

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:35 am

Two items of News...............are they related ?

Trade union membership has fallen below six million for the first time since the 1940s.

There are now 5.98 million members of TUC-affiliated unions, which is fewer than half the number just 30 years ago.

The gap between the health of the rich and the poor is greater now than at any time since records began

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:21 am

There's a huge push to disband all the unions here, the Republicans have convinced their constituency that the unions have helped sap the economy by allowing cops, firefighters and teachers to be so overpaid that it's taking food out of their childrens mouths. Strangely enough, the Koch brothers seem to be behind most of this... obscenely rich Republicans.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:49 am

Bruv;1403673 wrote: Two items of News...............are they related ?

Trade union membership has fallen below six million for the first time since the 1940s.

There are now 5.98 million members of TUC-affiliated unions, which is fewer than half the number just 30 years ago.

The gap between the health of the rich and the poor is greater now than at any time since records began

I don't think It's so much of the links being related. Thirty years ago unions were essential but laws have been passed and changed to cover everything from ageism to equal equality and minimum fair wage. Those factors which are now law were the very fuel to keep union fires burning. Change the law and eradicate unjustness In the workplace and the unions become redundant.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:37 am

So.....if unions are no longer needed due to the world being more just, why do the poor die younger ?

Snooz · Post by **Snooz** » Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:46 am

Because they're unemployed, silly.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:20 am

Bruv;1403712 wrote: So.....if unions are no longer needed due to the world being more just, why do the poor die younger ? Studies show that parts of the country where GDP Is greater, the difference between life expectancy Is approx ten years In say as example comparing The Borough of Westminster to Rochdale.

People living In area's of deprivation and lack of Investment typically take manual work where nearer South, there are more white collar workers. It's just the case that more Industry manual related work ie, builders, miners, steel works etc happen to be In poorer area's . It's more likely to be down to the fact that some workers In physical manual work live shorter lives than white collar workers because their jobs are simply more of a toll on the system.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:05 pm

Yes yes yes we all know the poor etc. etc. but.............you might have missed the bit....."The gap between the health of the rich and the poor is greater now than at any time since records began, research has shown."

Which considering they used to push children up chimneys, and they used asbestos to paint peoples houses.....and before the health and safety policies kicked in......is a pretty big indictment of the way we live today.......wouldn't you say ?

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:54 am

Which considering they used to push children up chimneys, and they used asbestos to paint peoples houses.....and before the health and safety policies kicked in......is a pretty big indictment of the way we live today.......wouldn't you say ?

Yes, in some ways. Something that has been achieved in the last 100 years is to reduce the sheer squalor that existed in so many places. Ricketts (sp?) has been eliminated, TB gone (occasionally threatens to come back...) and education, with all its faults, is universal. We don't push kids up chimneys and H&S does exist...

So it's not all doom.

But these are achievements without guarantees. If we don't guard them jealously we'll lose them to the Bottom Line. And I think these achievements (mostly those of our parents and grandparents) are at risk.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:35 am

Clodhopper;1403816 wrote:

So it's not all doom.

If we don't guard them jealously we'll lose them ...........

I keep repeating........."The gap between the health of the rich and the poor is greater now than at any time since records began."

Looks like what ever benefits were gained, have been lost already.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:54 am

Bruv;1403824 wrote: I keep repeating........."The gap between the health of the rich and the poor is greater now than at any time since records began."

Looks like what ever benefits were gained, have been lost already. It's a continual circle Isn't It ? If you are born In the suburbs to affluent parents, chances are you will go to school, college and University... from there, you'll most likely gain a white collar job.

Chances are, If you are born In an area and your parents are poor, you will leave school at 16 and Immediately follow your Father down the mines, Into the steel foundary or Into manual work such as a builder because there Is a lack of white collar jobs In area's with low GDP and Investment.

Those children are likely to follow the same path..and so the cycle continue's.

To break that cycle, governments need to Invest In deprived area's and give all children a greater chance of free education right through University for them to qualify for jobs In conditions that break that circle.

Snowfire · Post by **Snowfire** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:37 am

It makes good economic sense for mega rich people to keep the divide as big as they can. When work is scarce, we have to do more of it for less money, thus making the super rich richer.

We are provided with an economic recession occasionally if the gap narrows somewhat. It makes them uncomfortable. They can smell us getting closer.

I ran across a rolled up bunch of payslips from 2004. I now earn about £12,000 a year less now than I did then and I have to work a damned sight harder. My pensions aren't worth the paper they are written on. My endowment mortgage proved to be worthless

I don't see good times coming back during my life time at work and see my self working way beyond when I would like and beyond the point when my body will be saying "Hey, it's time you packed this up and retired "

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:39 am

Bruv: I hear you, and agree. I was just saying we haven't lost everything yet.

Bet we've all got stories about ourselves or people near us:

Friend of mine got hit by a car and whiplashed a few days ago. It was low speed and she's bruised so off work and sore but no worse thank heavens and her employer wants to dock her a day's pay! Self certification up to a week (ie 5 working days) and BHS apparently wants to dock her pay after four days as "standard procedure". It's a minimum wage job mostly done by immigrants generally unused to standing up for their employment rights if they know about them at all. A nasty sneaky accountant-style dodge to squeeze more.

BHS won't be untypical either. We need the unions mostly so ordinary employees can fight this sort of thing in the courts. I fear the decline in membership reflects the decline of British manufacuring and don't think the Unions have done much to modernise themselves or make themselves attractive. They ought to be occupying the space now being taken by legal firms like that underdog thingy...

We've never been too proud to copy a good idea, and I think we should copy from the German view of banking, companies and unions all being integral and mutually supportive elments of business as a whole.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:42 am

In these climes, all business's and even the larger conglomerates look to cut back... they start with wages... It's the way of the world and always has been. It has nothing to do with the size of the company or organisation. Where there's recession, the workers are the first to get bitten.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:06 pm

I find it astounding that despite Elf an Safety at work, and breakdown of barriers (allegedly) with social mobility and University becoming available to all, that this was still going on to the extent it is.

"The last time in the long economic record that inequalities were almost as high was in the lead up to the economic crash of 1929 and the economic depression of the 1930s," researchers said.

I have spent most of my life drifting to the right, I shall have to readjust to the left again.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:12 pm

Bruv;1403880 wrote: I find it astounding that despite Elf an Safety at work, and breakdown of barriers (allegedly) with social mobility and University becoming available to all, that this was still going on to the extent it is.

"The last time in the long economic record that inequalities were almost as high was in the lead up to the economic crash of 1929 and the economic depression of the 1930s," researchers said.

I have spent most of my life drifting to the right, I shall have to readjust to the left again. Going back to what I said about cycle's. I think If we looked at the stats where there has been recession, maybe there's a trend.... don't know... haven't looked Into that deeply. But maybe It's when there Is recession and shortage of money per say that people turn to any work they can get and thus, shorten their life span. Or am I thinking bollocks here?

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:39 pm

We have had the National Health Service since 1948, so presumably it's benefits kicked in almost immediately, with the benefits growing with each cared for generation since. Working conditions have never been more protected, minimum wage and health and safety wise.

Yet " the last time inequalities were almost as high was 1929/1930"

That is much much more of a blip on a cycle as far as I am concerned............lets all camp outside St Pauls

Snowfire · Post by **Snowfire** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:57 pm

Bruv;1403889 wrote: .........lets all camp outside St Pauls

Not with my back

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:00 pm

Snowfire;1403902 wrote: Not with my back I'm feeling sick and I'm tired... maybe tomorrow.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:52 am

There will always be a divide what ever stats you look at.

On a larger scale, It's the difference between children starving In Africa and us throwing food away.

I'm of the mind that we will never see such a thing as redistribution of wealth In our life-times and I think It's the only step that would end poverty full stop.

theia · Post by **theia** » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:43 am

Snowfire;1403902 wrote: Not with my back

:yh_rotfl