There Is No God.

Post by **jones jones** » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:10 am

"To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin."

Cardinal Bellarmine, 1615, during the trial of Galileo

Post by **jones jones** » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:47 am

In the last two thousand years there have been many cults operating under many different names and guises. In the sixties there was the Manson Family whose horrific deeds are well documented and known to all of us who lived during this period. Then there was Jim Jones and the People’s Temple, David Koresh and the Branch Dravidians, The Solar Temple, The Unification Church of Mr Moon and a gazillion others followed, many of which are still active today. And

all these cults have one thing in common … the ability to attract and recruit members from among the young and old.

Because of their upbringing and brainwashing by parents and educators, a large percentage of earthlings believe that when they die/pass away/pass on/expire, they will hopefully proceed to a place in the sky where they will meet and live with Jesus and maybe God. This place is called heaven or paradise and they will meet up with all their long departed relatives and friends who have since their death been cradled in the arms of Jesus, or words to that effect. Doesn’t it sound so dumb when you actually see it in print? Mostly what they are promised is “eternal life” which is simply a euphemism for reincarnation, but be that as it may.

Anyway, in order to insure a direct route to this awesome place after death, these earthlings gather every Sunday morning and/or evening in buildings called churches and cathedrals. Here they grovel before this invisible man in the sky so as to convince him that they are worthy of being admitted to this place called heaven/paradise. They actually also pay money to their church like sort of buying a ticket to a movie, only they don’t get to see a movie.

A cult is usually defined as: “A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.” or “A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.”

So how difficult would it be to form such a cult? I can’t speak for other religions, but Christians, born again or otherwise, want to go to heaven/paradise when they die. Why not? I mean according to the Bible it’s either that or hell.

So a cult that can guarantee its members that they will definitely and without doubt go to heaven when they die, should prove to be as popular if not more than any of the cults I have mentioned before, shouldn’t it?

So I have this idea. I want to establish a cult that will do exactly this. I will call my cult “The Guarantee You Paradise Church” or the GYP Church for short. For a small fee of $100 a month for five years or a once off payment of $5000, I will give you a written iron clad guarantee that when you die you will go directly to heaven. If you do not go directly to heaven after you die and it can be proved, I will refund all the money you paid to my church with 25% interest. Now how’s that for a good deal!

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:09 am

It's been done . The catholic church and the church of England used to get people to sign over their lands to the church for a garranteed place in heaven. that's how they got so rich .

Post by **jones jones** » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:17 am

fuzzywuzzy;1437841 wrote: It's been done . The catholic church and the church of England used to get people to sign over their lands to the church for a garranteed place in heaven. that's how they got so rich .

Really? I didn't know that.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:19 am

pretty much from the 14th century onwards. It's still done today.

Post by **jones jones** » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:29 am

fuzzywuzzy;1437846 wrote: pretty much from the 14th century onwards. It's still done today.

There goes my GYP Church then. Curses ... foiled again!

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:34 am

Awwwhhhh give it a go ...there's always some gullibles out there . But you don't need to start a church the probate courts are full of individuals who have swindled other individuals out of their money on death beds..

Post by **jones jones** » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:10 am

“If there is a God, He will have to beg my forgiveness.”– A phrase that was carved on the walls of a concentration camp cell during WWII by a Jewish prisoner.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:50 am

LarsMac;1437736 wrote: This guy gets it, I believe.

Best Explanation Of Religion I Have Ever Heard, And I'm Practically An AtheistI don't have the sound on my box working. Would you mind explaining in your own words what it is he's saying?

Post by **LarsMac** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:15 am

Basically, it was not God that came up with Heaven and Hell.

"The Church doesn't like people to grow up,..." The Church would like for us all to remain children. We need to grow up and accept responsibility for our own lives."

"our problem is not that we were born in sin, our problem is that we do not yet know how to achieve being fully human."

"The function of the Christ is not to rescue the sinners, but to empower you and to call you to be more deeply and fully human than you ever realized there was the potential within you to be."

"Maybe salvation needs to be conveyed in terms of enhancing your humanity than rescuing you from it."

I believe those were the high points.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:20 am

The word "humanity" appears to mean being nice in that context rather than becoming a more knowledgeable human. That's typical of the use of "human" or "humanity" coming from a religious perspective.

What if becoming more fully human meant the need to abandon religious perspective in order to develop more humanity?

Post by **LarsMac** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:46 am

Ahso!;1438117 wrote: The word "humanity" appears to mean being nice in that context rather than becoming a more knowledgeable human. That's typical of the use of "human" or "humanity" coming from a religious perspective.

What if becoming more fully human meant the need to abandon religious perspective in order to develop more humanity?

Like it or not, I don't think you and he are that far apart.

But you are trying to put words in his mouth. I don't think his words are "typical of the use of "human" or "humanity" from a religious perspective.

I see him with a far higher expectation of humanity than usual from "Men of the Cloth"

Pity you cannot actually listen to him, for yourself.

But you must be comfortable in your own preconceptions.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:49 am

Okay. Explain to me what his expectation for humanity is.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:15 pm

Ahso!;1438128 wrote: Okay. Explain to me what his expectation for humanity is.

I would only be offering my own preconceptions.

But this particular sentence from that interview caught my attention.

"Maybe salvation needs to be conveyed in terms of enhancing your humanity than rescuing you from it."

Through the history of Christianity - particularly the evangelical movements - Christians have felt that it is our very nature from which we need to be 'saved'. That the monster within is the tool of the Evil One to tempt us into going against the Will of God. It was that humanity, they think, that caused us to commit the first sin, and began our eternal war with God. This is the basis of the doctrines of most religions.

Instead, it seems that the Bishop thinks it is that humanity and its potential that we must strive to develop so that we can rise above the beast from which we began, and the superstitions of the Church inhibit us from doing so.

He is definitely a heretic. My kind of Christian.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:20 pm

Define humanity, it appears that it's being used rather loosely.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:34 pm

Ahso!;1438151 wrote: Define humanity, it appears that it's being used rather loosely.

Well, of course it is.

My own definition: That which makes us human, both individually, and collectively. Our sense of ourselves and how we fit into the world as a species.

Your turn.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:39 pm

You need to decide if we're discussing what you think , what the person in the video thinks or what you believe the person in the video thinks.

As for my definition of "humanity"? I'll go with this one:

huÂ·manÂ·iÂ·ty

(h)yoÍžoËˆmanitÄ“/

noun

noun: humanity;â€ƒplural noun: humanities

1.

the human race; human beings collectively.

"appalling crimes against humanity"

synonyms: humankind, mankind, man, people, human beings, humans, the human race, mortals;

https://www.google.com/search?client=ub ... 8&oe=utf-8

Post by **LarsMac** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:38 pm

Ahso!;1438156 wrote: You need to decide if we're discussing what you think , what the person in the video thinks or what you believe the person in the video thinks.

I don't know that I must be the one to make that decision. Our whole conversation is around what he said, so I would have to say we seem to be discussing what we believe his point of view to be.

It is rather obvious that we each see his opinion differently. Our differing perceptions and differing contexts tend to cloud his message.

This is probably to the detriment of both of us.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:52 pm

It's not that we see this person's message differently, the problem is that you've said you agree with what was said in the video and I'm trying to understand what was said. I asked you to explain it to me because you said you understood it and agreed with it.

This is the difficulty that spirituality poses with humans, it assumes a lot. Words are used loosely with the assumption that others who are similarly conditioned get the meaning when definitions haven't been properly sorted out.

You assumed that the word 'humanity' was a term with a floating meaning while I chose a concrete and generally accepted one.

I'm happy to attempt to have this conversation, but we must agree on definitions.

Post by **LarsMac** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 3:10 pm

Ahso!;1438166 wrote: It's not that we see this person's message differently, the problem is that you've said you agree with what was said in the video and I'm trying to understand what was said. I asked you to explain it to me because you said you understood it and agreed with it.

This is the difficulty that spirituality poses with humans, it assumes a lot. Words are used loosely with the assumption that others who are similarly conditioned get the meaning when definitions haven't been properly sorted out.

You assumed that the word 'humanity' was a term with a floating meaning while I chose a concrete and generally accepted one.

I'm happy to attempt to have this conversation, but we must agree on definitions.

There are several definitions to the term, all quite generally accepted. Context makes the difference.

I assume nothing.

The difficulty lies on which definition we choose to hold to.

This isn't math or science we are talking, but philosophy.

Therefore I suggest a more philosophical definition.

humanity -

definition. American English definition of humanity by Macmillan Dictionary

humanity - definition

NOUN [UNCOUNTABLE] American English pronunciation: humanity /hjuËˆmÃ¦nÉ™ti/

1. all the people who are living in the world

ex. Weapons of this type are a threat to the survival of humanity.

crimes against humanity (=crimes against a very large number of people): He was charged on six counts of crimes against humanity.

2. a kind and sympathetic attitude toward other people, especially when they are suffering in some way

ex. He was lacking in basic humanity.

3. the state of being human, and of behaving and thinking in the same way as other people

ex. By respecting other cultures, we affirm our common humanity.

For the purpose of this discussion, I believe I will hold to the one I first offered, and it seems closest to how I perceive his intent.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 3:20 pm

Okay, I can agree to discuss this on those terms.

FWIW, as I said earlier, it boils down to being nice.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 3:26 pm

So, I'll ask my question again:

"What if becoming more fully human meant the need to abandon religious perspective in order to develop more humanity"

Post by **LarsMac** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:46 pm

Ahso!;1438170 wrote: So, I'll ask my question again:

"What if becoming more fully human meant the need to abandon religious perspective in order to develop more humanity"

Well, then I would have to ask you for your meaning of "religious perspective"

And then why would I want to, if "to develop more humanity" means simply to be more nice?

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:12 pm

Humans will often see a persons' worth, but not the worth of a person. That's what religion has done to mankind.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:38 pm

LarsMac;1438174 wrote: Well, then I would have to ask you for your meaning of "religious perspective"

And then why would I want to, if "to develop more humanity" means simply to be more nice?You said you thought Spong had a higher expectation for humanity. What higher expectation would he have outside the definition you offered of kindness and sympathy for others?

Post by **LarsMac** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:35 pm

Ahso!;1438178 wrote: You said you thought Spong had a higher expectation for humanity. What higher expectation would he have outside the definition you offered of kindness and sympathy for others?

I don't recall offering that as my definition. I believe I held to my original response.

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:09 am

Here are six important statements about wealth from the Bible:

Matthew 6:19

Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Luke 14:33

Any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.

Matthew 6:24

No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and Money.

Matthew 19:21

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Hebrews 13:5

Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you."

Phil 2:3

Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.

Acts 2:44-45

All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.

So the next time you go to church, look at the building. At any "normal" church, the building is an immense structure worth a significant amounts of money.

The Vatican's treasure of solid gold has been estimated by the United Nations World Magazine to amount to several billion dollars. Much of this is stored in gold bars with the U.S Federal Reserve as well as in banks in England and of course Switzerland.

But this is just peanuts, The wealth of the Vatican in the U.S. alone is much more than the five richest corporations in the country, not to mention the land as well as stocks and shares held abroad. Actually the wealth of the Catholic Church is so great that it is obscene.

So what does this prove?

That church congregations simply ignore the teachings of Jesus because they know that he is imaginary.

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:44 am

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:44 am

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:45 am

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:46 am

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:46 am

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:47 am

Post by **jones jones** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:40 am

Saw bits & pieces of an different version of the Ten Commandments on cable TV the other night. Charlton Heston wasn't in this one.

Anyway it got me thinking ...

There's a scene, when in order to prove how powerful his god is, Moses throws his staff to the ground in front of Pharaoh and it turns into a snake.

Now wouldn't it have scared the crap out the Egyptians if his god had turned the staff into an automatic rifle or an bazooka even?

In another scene when his god unleashes an assortment of ten plagues on the Egyptians the Hebrews have to make a bloody cross above their doors.

Come on now ... Any entity capable of doing the stuff this one is credited with would surely not have to be shown where the good guys live.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:10 pm

JJ, when I tried to see the 3 pics above I got this message:

Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator

Post by **jones jones** » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:11 am

AnneBoleyn;1440120 wrote: JJ, when I tried to see the 3 pics above I got this message:

Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator

Well that's entirely my fault Annie and here's why ... I upload images to my albums all the time but I am restricted as to the number of MB I am allowed ... (also I get very bored very quickly and very easily so I chop and change my albums a lot)

So in my search for more and even more images, in order to upload them to my albums I need to delete others so as to keep my MB in order so to speak. And once they are like deleted from my albums they vanish from my threads in a puff of smoke!

I'm certain that there must be another easier way to do this like via Photo Bucket or some such entity, but I am not very computer literate so I will have to speak to my computer fundi and ask her advice ... unless of course you are in a position to lift the veil from my eyes and thereby enlighten me.

Thank you very much.

Regards,

Jj.

:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

Post by **LarsMac** » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:52 am

jones jones;1440170 wrote: Well that's entirely my fault Annie and here's why ... I upload images to my albums all the time but I am restricted as to the number of MB I am allowed ... (also I get very bored very quickly and very easily so I chop and change my albums a lot)

So in my search for more and even more images, in order to upload them to my albums I need to delete others so as to keep my MB in order so to speak. And once they are like deleted from my albums they vanish from my threads in a puff of smoke!

I'm certain that there must be another easier way to do this like via Photo Bucket or some such entity, but I am not very computer literate so I will have to speak to my computer fundi and ask her advice ... unless of course you are in a position to lift the veil from my eyes and thereby enlighten me.

Thank you very much.

Regards,

Jj.

:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

Some reviews of various services you might find useful

The best photo apps for keeping your memories in the cloud | The Verge

Photo Sharing Services Review 2014 | Best Online Photo Album | Photo Storage - TopTenREVIEWS

Post by **jones jones** » Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:01 am

LarsMac;1440179 wrote: Some reviews of various services you might find useful

The best photo apps for keeping your memories in the cloud | The Verge

Photo Sharing Services Review 2014 | Best Online Photo Album | Photo Storage - TopTenREVIEWS

Thank you very much LarsMac. I shall look at these.

sheep · Post by **sheep** » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:19 pm

Hey Jones, mind if i start a discussion with you about the title alone, which states: "there is no God". Let's not clutter the discussion by discussing the Character of God, but rather, if you don't mind, let's just keep it to proving whether or not God actually exists.

Post by **jones jones** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:07 am

sheep;1451113 wrote: Hey Jones, mind if i start a discussion with you about the title alone, which states: "there is no God". Let's not clutter the discussion by discussing the Character of God, but rather, if you don't mind, let's just keep it to proving whether or not God actually exists.

There is no "god" Shep so it can't have a character ... and proving it exists will be a gazillion times harder than the opposite which of course is true!

halfway · Post by **halfway** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:34 am

Faith.....

...it is what keeps us committed to saving the planet.

You cannot change opinions with facts.

sheep · Post by **sheep** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:06 am

jones jones;1451117 wrote: There is no "god" Shep so it can't have a character ... and proving it exists will be a gazillion times harder than the opposite which of course is true!

I think that depends on what facts you are using and it will be my attempt to show that the so called facts being used are actually bad assumptions and not facts at all.

Anyways, I'm sorry everyone but I have started this conversation in private with jones jones and unless he agrees to take the discussions public, we will have this discussion privately.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:00 pm

Anyways, I'm sorry everyone but I have started this conversation in private with jones jones and unless he agrees to take the discussions public, we will have this discussion privately.

Who died & made you king? If you want to talk to my JJ in private there is a Private Message Function. You just joined & you are making rules? This is a PUBLIC Forum.

JJ, doesn't he remind you, just a wee bit, of someone else & that the someone else is a Prince in comparison?

Some nerve. Chutzpah.

Post by **jones jones** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:21 pm

AnneBoleyn;1451148 wrote: Anyways, I'm sorry everyone but I have started this conversation in private with jones jones and unless he agrees to take the discussions public, we will have this discussion privately.

Who died & made you king? If you want to talk to my JJ in private there is a Private Message Function. You just joined & you are making rules? This is a PUBLIC Forum.

JJ, doesn't he remind you, just a wee bit, of someone else & that the someone else is a Prince in comparison?

Some nerve. Chutzpah.

Actually Annie, Shep did ask me first. However I have since suggested to him we should continue on the forum ... After all, it does so need threads/posts.

Mwaaaah for you for being so nice to me though! :-4

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:25 pm

Asked you first? What's this, a playground? Neither of you has the right to hold a private discussion on a public forum no matter who asked you nicely to play first.

Post by **jones jones** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:29 pm

AnneBoleyn;1451153 wrote: Asked you first? What's this, a playground? Neither of you has the right to hold a private discussion on a public forum no matter who asked you nicely to play first.

Excuse me? I have the right to say anything I want in a private discussion with anyone I please on this or any other Forum.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:32 pm

jones jones;1451155 wrote: Excuse me? I have the right to say anything I want in a private discussion with anyone I please on this or any other Forum.

Of course! But you can't close off comments or opinions of others while the Thread is Open & Public. Or can you? Need an administrative referee here, please!

PS--you can, of course, ignore the comments of others, but that would be rude, & you are definitely not that.

Post by **jones jones** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:36 pm

AnneBoleyn;1451157 wrote: Of course! But you can't close off comments or opinions of others while the Thread is Open & Public. Or can you? Need an administrative referee here, please!

PS--you can, of course, ignore the comments of others, but that would be rude, & you are definitely not that.

The rationale behind it dear is simply to avoid having a thread taken off topic and/or commandeered by earthlings who have no real interest in it.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:39 pm

I don't understand, earthling. Please explain further. Over.

Post by **jones jones** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:41 pm

AnneBoleyn;1451161 wrote: I don't understand, earthling. Please explain further. Over.

You don't understand my reply or you don't understand earthling? Or are you taking the mickey?