The Ukraine conflict

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Sun May 04, 2014 5:46 pm

Ummmm? I'm finding this very confusing . Exactly who's side are we on?

You have the Russian radical left on one side and the neo nazi right wing on the other? what he heck?

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon May 05, 2014 2:19 pm

fuzzywuzzy;1453220 wrote: Ummmm? I'm finding this very confusing . Exactly who's side are we on?

You have the Russian radical left on one side and the neo nazi right wing on the other? what he heck?

The Russian side is not radical left. There are no leftists involved. Russians are the right wing here, not the left. They want the Soviet influence back.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon May 05, 2014 2:24 pm

AnneBoleyn;1453270 wrote: The Russian side is not radical left. There are no leftists involved. Russians are the right wing here, not the left. They want the Soviet influence back.

You mean Fuzzy Is wrong ?

As long as Britain Is not Involved and Putin doesn't cut our gas supply off.... I don't care

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon May 05, 2014 2:29 pm

Oscar Mate;1453271 wrote: You mean Fuzzy Is wrong ?

As long as Britain Is not Involved and Putin doesn't cut our gas supply off.... I don't care

Fine. If that attitude is prevalent in Europe there will be no stopping Putin if he decides to re-unite the Soviet Union. In fact, if he wants to add even more stuff......................wait a minute, you just reminded me of a man named Neville Chamberlain. Sound familiar? Of course his actions ended up forcing people to care. It was already too late.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon May 05, 2014 2:31 pm

BTW, I didn't say Fuzz was wrong, she asked a question as she felt confused. I find Fuzz's politics to be generally quite right-on & intelligent, with a compassion for other people.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon May 05, 2014 2:39 pm

Oscar Mate;1453271 wrote: As long as Britain Is not Involved and Putin doesn't cut our gas supply off.... I don't care

I am more concerned about Putin than Griffin

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon May 05, 2014 2:43 pm

When I lived in England a boyfriend told me the Union Jack stood for "I'M All Right, So F*** You, JACK". Of course, he was a hippie.

I love England, I'm an Anglophile.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon May 05, 2014 2:45 pm

AnneBoleyn;1453272 wrote: Fine. If that attitude is prevalent in Europe there will be no stopping Putin if he decides to re-unite the Soviet Union. In fact, if he wants to add even more stuff......................wait a minute, you just reminded me of a man named Neville Chamberlain. Sound familiar? Of course his actions ended up forcing people to care. It was already too late.

Did he drink In the Dog and Gherkin pub In The Old Kent Road.? I think he sold me a car battery once.

My apologies Anne... I was being facetious... a wild stab at Irony...What we Brits call Taking The P.iss...

Let's be serious then... If my memory serves me correctly, the exit poll In Crimea stood at 93 %. If that Is a genuine figure then really, who Is anyone to Intervene.? We haven't been able to stop hundreds and hundreds of children being slaughtered In Syria or the genocide of Christians. No Intervention there so why Russia.?

Providing the conflict Is resolved quickly and with little loss of life as possible, meddling may just make things worse. Why do we have to be on ' a side ' ?

Why take sides ? Who gives another country and people on another continent the right to ' take sides' ?

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon May 05, 2014 3:20 pm

It's not about taking sides for me. I think things are moving back to it's natural conclusion; I'm surprised it took this long, and the handwriting was on the wall with the Georgia incident. I would never want a war with Russia, but expressing disapproval isn't harmful. Britain has lost more than enough lives in Crimea, I wouldn't want you to lose another one. I am suspicious about 93% voting for the same thing, anything. Putin is a thug, in my book, but he's not my problem, & you are right in that there has been enough meddling.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon May 05, 2014 3:22 pm

PS--I don't know if he drank In the Dog and Gherkin pub In The Old Kent Road. I honestly can't even remember him anymore, but I loved what he said & only kept that part of him in my memory bank!!!

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon May 05, 2014 3:41 pm

AnneBoleyn;1453285 wrote: PS--I don't know if he drank In the Dog and Gherkin pub In The Old Kent Road. I honestly can't even remember him anymore, but I loved what he said & only kept that part of him in my memory bank!!!

Sorry Anne... what was I thinking ? Now I recall, It wasn't Neville Chamberlain who sold me that car battery In The Dog and Gherkin Pub up The Old Kent Road..... silly me.... no, It was Dagenham Dave who sold me that car battery In The Squirrel and Bucket Pub on Hammersmith Broadway.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon May 05, 2014 3:44 pm

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon May 05, 2014 3:45 pm

AnneBoleyn;1453284 wrote: It's not about taking sides for me. I think things are moving back to it's natural conclusion; I'm surprised it took this long, and the handwriting was on the wall with the Georgia incident. I would never want a war with Russia, but expressing disapproval isn't harmful. Britain has lost more than enough lives in Crimea, I wouldn't want you to lose another one. I am suspicious about 93% voting for the same thing, anything. Putin is a thug, in my book, but he's not my problem, & you are right in that there has been enough meddling.

Crippling Russia financially with sanctions and ultimately bankrupting them Is not the answer either for me. Russian people have suffered enough historically and are only just beginning to enjoy a decent standard of living In some parts. I do not get the desire by Obama to do that. I think we should all stay out of It until such time the people of the Ukraine ask us to Intervene.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon May 05, 2014 4:00 pm

New Ukraine Government Asks U.N. to Help Ease Crisis

The Cable

New Ukraine Government Asks U.N. to Help Ease Crisis

thecable.foreignpolicy.com/.../new_ukraine_government_

Ukraine Falters in Drive to Curb Unrest in East

"KIEV, Ukraine â€” Ukraineâ€™s failure to enforce its own ultimatums and its appeal on Monday to the United Nations to send peacekeepers laid bare a grim reality for the shaky government in Kiev, where political leaders and security forces have few reliable ways to confront Russian-backed separatists in the restive east.

A deadline set by Ukraineâ€™s acting president for the start of a â€œlarge-scale antiterrorist operationâ€ in the east passed without any clear police or military intervention. Meanwhile, pro-Russian militants seized yet another government building in the Donetsk region, bringing to at least nine the number of eastern towns now swept up in an insurgency."

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/15/world ... .html?_r=0

Russia is run by lawless, corrupt THUGS. Just ask those who protested & somehow died. Oh wait, you can't. Pravda of the Kremlin.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon May 05, 2014 4:07 pm

AnneBoleyn;1453302 wrote: New Ukraine Government Asks U.N. to Help Ease Crisis

The Cable

New Ukraine Government Asks U.N. to Help Ease Crisis

thecable.foreignpolicy.com/.../new_ukraine_government_

Ukraine Falters in Drive to Curb Unrest in East

"KIEV, Ukraine â€” Ukraineâ€™s failure to enforce its own ultimatums and its appeal on Monday to the United Nations to send peacekeepers laid bare a grim reality for the shaky government in Kiev, where political leaders and security forces have few reliable ways to confront Russian-backed separatists in the restive east.

A deadline set by Ukraineâ€™s acting president for the start of a â€œlarge-scale antiterrorist operationâ€ in the east passed without any clear police or military intervention. Meanwhile, pro-Russian militants seized yet another government building in the Donetsk region, bringing to at least nine the number of eastern towns now swept up in an insurgency."

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/15/world ... .html?_r=0

Russia is run by lawless, corrupt THUGS. Just ask those who protested & somehow died. Oh wait, you can't. Pravda of the Kremlin. I don't profess to know much on the subject as I've not done much reading thus far.

Thanks for the links... I will look at them and read.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Tue May 06, 2014 3:18 am

The situation similar to the Irish problem are happening before our eyes.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Wed May 07, 2014 5:12 am

HHHHMMMMMmmmmmmm.....just humming at the moment ....

katsung47 · Post by **katsung47** » Thu May 08, 2014 1:29 pm

Ukrainian children against the Ukrainian Army

"Dont Kill us"

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu May 08, 2014 6:40 pm

I'm not saying it's anywhere near our responsibility, but here's what I see:

* Putin sees a US president weak on our military (note I didn't say defense, though many Americans would) so he's taking the opportunity to move.

* China is licking their chops at Taiwan, and maybe Japan.

* North Korea's insane leader (his father cared so little for him that he named him after a verbal pause) is licking his chops at South Korea, and maybe Japan.

* The Arab World are licking their chops at Israel, though Lord knows why.

* If our next president starts increasing the deficit to build up our military in Europe, I predict China, North Korea, or both will become more aggressive in the Pacific. This will open the gates for further Arab aggression against Israel.

* The Progressive Repub US president (who I predict will succeed our current Progressive Dem) would then feel obligated to overstretch our already overtaxed military to cover all the bases, and figuratively pee on all proverbial bushes in question.

* Unless calmer heads prevail, we will find ourselves drowning in a three-front war, wondering what the hell happened.

I really hope I'm wrong.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Fri May 09, 2014 4:43 am

Accountable;1453562 wrote: I'm not saying it's anywhere near our responsibility, but here's what I see:

* Putin sees a US president weak on our military (note I didn't say defense, though many Americans would) so he's taking the opportunity to move.

* China is licking their chops at Taiwan, and maybe Japan.

* North Korea's insane leader (his father cared so little for him that he named him after a verbal pause) is licking his chops at South Korea, and maybe Japan.

* The Arab World are licking their chops at Israel, though Lord knows why.

* If our next president starts increasing the deficit to build up our military in Europe, I predict China, North Korea, or both will become more aggressive in the Pacific. This will open the gates for further Arab aggression against Israel.

* The Progressive Repub US president (who I predict will succeed our current Progressive Dem) would then feel obligated to overstretch our already overtaxed military to cover all the bases, and figuratively pee on all proverbial bushes in question.

* Unless calmer heads prevail, we will find ourselves drowning in a three-front war, wondering what the hell happened.

I really hope I'm wrong.

I have got to word this very carefully so as not to offend our American members, and particularly Accountable.

OK here goes......It's Not All About You.

There.....................I said it.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Fri May 09, 2014 5:30 am

Acc: "I really hope I'm wrong."

Don't worry, you are.

OK here goes......It's Not All About Us.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Fri May 09, 2014 9:01 pm

Bruv;1453576 wrote: I have got to word this very carefully so as not to offend our American members, and particularly Accountable.

OK here goes......It's Not All About You.

There.....................I said it.

YES IT IS!!!! Have you seen the TPPA consolidation? I believe there is definately something going on And Russia is getting ready and doing a landmass grab before it happens.

TPPA Views & Research - The Conversation

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri May 09, 2014 9:32 pm

Bruv;1453576 wrote: I have got to word this very carefully so as not to offend our American members, and particularly Accountable.

OK here goes......It's Not All About You.

There.....................I said it.
No offense taken. I know that it's not all about us. You know that, too. But the idiots we keep voting into power in Washington think differently. We've created a Pax Amerikana and made lots of enemies in the process. We're the biggest kid on the block, which means that people depend on us, even to the point of not keeping their own defenses up to speed, and our enemies will take advantage of a chink they find in our armor to regain what they perceive they've lost.

I'm not saying I support our intervention. I'm not even saying the scenario(s) I've painted are 100% fact. I am saying that I believe Washington will act as if it is reality, which is what really matters.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat May 10, 2014 3:57 am

Don't forget poland, slovakia, hungary etc etc will all be watching this very closely. I doubt very much if any of them are holding their breath waiting fo the americans or nato to do anything. If putin succeeds in the Ukraine no one knows what he might do next there are plenty of hard liners around. The ukrainians will probably fight if push comes to fight probably the best thing they can do is send in the troops to get the unsurgents out and mak clear to putin he will have a war on his hands . The crimea was arguably a special case. The only way the us and nato can get inolved is full scale all out war anyone who thinks any such conflict would be limitless is an idiot imo.

Seruiously folks is america up for world war three?

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon May 12, 2014 9:31 pm

AnneBoleyn;1453270 wrote: Russians are the right wing here, not the left.

True.

AnneBoleyn;1453270 wrote: They want the Soviet influence back.

I don't see it that way.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon May 12, 2014 9:35 pm

Bruv;1453576 wrote: I have got to word this very carefully so as not to offend our American members, and particularly Accountable.

OK here goes......It's Not All About You.

There.....................I said it.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon May 12, 2014 9:42 pm

gmc;1453705 wrote: Don't forget poland, slovakia, hungary etc etc will all be watching this very closely. I doubt very much if any of them are holding their breath waiting fo the americans or nato to do anything. If putin succeeds in the Ukraine no one knows what he might do next there are plenty of hard liners around. The ukrainians will probably fight if push comes to fight probably the best thing they can do is send in the troops to get the unsurgents out and mak clear to putin he will have a war on his hands . The crimea was arguably a special case. The only way the us and nato can get inolved is full scale all out war anyone who thinks any such conflict would be limitless is an idiot imo.

Seruiously folks is america up for world war three?

Putin is neither Stalin nor Hitler. Eastern Ukraine (and Transnistria, for that matter) is all about the large population of ethnic Russians, it's not about conquest. In other words, "poland, slovakia, hungary etc etc" don't figure into it.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Mon May 12, 2014 10:04 pm

Heard on the radio this morning of an Australian farmer near the port in Crimea. They are afraid the port will close to Ukraine. = collapse of the economy. You don't need a full scale war.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue May 13, 2014 1:36 pm

High Threshold;1453967 wrote: Putin is neither Stalin nor Hitler. Eastern Ukraine (and Transnistria, for that matter) is all about the large population of ethnic Russians, it's not about conquest. In other words, "poland, slovakia, hungary etc etc" don't figure into it.

The ukraine is the bread basket of europe food is a resource just like any other putin now controls the ports used to export grain, the east of ukraine has most of the industry Many ukrainians fought with hitler against russia, the ukraine was the victim of many of the purges carried out by the communists such things still matter a great deal IMO it's not just a simple matter of putin helping his fellow russians. I would not be surprised if the poles et al are not watching things very carefully.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Tue May 13, 2014 2:32 pm

Ukrainians. White Russians. Cossacks.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Wed May 14, 2014 2:45 am

gmc;1454021 wrote: The ukraine is the bread basket of europe

You're using WW II rhetoric and it's an over-statement by modern standards.

gmc;1454021 wrote: .... putin now controls the ports used to export grain ...

You may correct me if I am wrong in either part or in entirety, but the Crimea has been a "Russian controlled" port since "well!" the days of the USSR - comparable perhaps as American presence in Cuba at Guantanamo Bay. Right or wrong Russia has always controlled the ports of the Crimea. This is not a new development.

gmc;1454021 wrote: ... Many ukrainians fought with hitler against russia, the ukraine was the victim of many of the purges carried out by the communists ...

Completely irrelevant.

gmc;1454021 wrote: .... it's not just a simple matter of putin helping his fellow russians.

You are not qualified to decide that. Anyway, up to now you'd be wrong.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed May 14, 2014 1:51 pm

You're using WW II rhetoric and it's an over-statement by modern standards.

Whose modern standards would that be? it'sd tht sort of language that is being used by those who want closer links with russia and is the language used during the crimean referendum. Next you;ll be telling me terms like right and left have no place today because they have their origins in the frnch revolution.

You may correct me if I am wrong in either part or in entirety, but the Crimea has been a "Russian controlled" port since "well!" the days of the USSR - comparable perhaps as American presence in Cuba at Guantanamo Bay. Right or wrong Russia has always controlled the ports of the Crimea. This is not a new development.

They were given to the ukrainians with the proviso the black sea fleet remained nor russia controls access to them exports are shipped out through them. Comparison with cuba is not really viable, for all their faults the americans did not ethnically cleanse cuba - the russian did the crimea in 1944, those tatars that returned are ow cocerned it's al going to start all over again.

Completely irrelevant.

No it's not people have long memories, just look at some of tne rhetoric being used by both sides. Come to that look what happened in yugoslavia that was a conflict out of the middle ages. You could put a good case I think that the ussr preventd these old hatreds being fuhght to a concluscion.

You are not qualified to decide that. Anyway, up to now you'd be wrong.

I'm as well qualified as anyone to have an opinion on the matter and it's a moot point whether I'm wrong or not. If you can't come up with a bettr argument than a pathetic comment like that I'm disppointed. I find it hard to credit you need someone qualified to tell you what to think, I don't I can make up my own mind.

Race, religion and old politics putin's stirring the pot and althe knuckle draggers are getting excited at the prospect of conflict.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed May 14, 2014 7:01 pm

gmc;1453705 wrote: Seruiously folks is america up for world war three?I don't belive so, no. Nothing short of a direct devastating attack such as the World Trade Center bombing will stir our collective spirit. And even then .....

High Threshold;1453967 wrote: Putin is neither Stalin nor Hitler. Eastern Ukraine (and Transnistria, for that matter) is all about the large population of ethnic Russians, it's not about conquest. In other words, "poland, slovakia, hungary etc etc" don't figure into it.It'd be great if you're right. I'm more skeptical.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Wed May 14, 2014 8:35 pm

gmc;1454106 wrote: Whose modern standards would that be? ...

"The bread basket" theme was relevant during WW II - not today. You're droning on about history.

gmc;1454106 wrote: Next you;ll be telling me terms like right and left have no place today because they have their origins in the frnch revolution.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how absurd would you rate that comment? Do you think I ought to detest Germans today because of Hitler?

gmc;1454106 wrote: They were given to the ukrainians with the proviso the black sea fleet remained nor russia controls access to them exports are shipped out through them.

There you are.

gmc;1454106 wrote: Comparison with cuba is not really viable ...

Fair enough.

gmc;1454106 wrote: .... people have long memories .....

An equally irrelevant point. You're still droning on about history.

gmc;1454106 wrote: I'm as well qualified as anyone to have an opinion on the matter ...

And you think I'm saying that you are not? You stated it in a "factual" tone, not as an "opinion".

gmc;1454106 wrote: If you can't come up with a bettr argument than a pathetic comment like that I'm disppointed. I find it hard to credit you need someone qualified to tell you what to think, I don't I can make up my own mind.

I think that you're taking my comment too personally. Stating opinion as though it is fact is what I am contesting.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Wed May 14, 2014 8:44 pm

Accountable;1454116 wrote:

It'd be great if you're right. I'm more skeptical.

I can understand your scepitism. I think that we have a right to be optimistic too ... as long as we don't send in Chamberlain to do the negotiating. :wah:

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri May 16, 2014 1:38 am

"The bread basket" theme was relevant during WW II - not today. You're droning on about history.

The history is relevant whether you agree with me.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how absurd would you rate that comment? Do you think I ought to detest Germans today because of Hitler?

No, I'm assuming english is not your first language. Bu we do we need to remember how the naziscam to power in a democratic, well educated country We talk about left and right wing politcs and the terminology is still relevant. To suggest the rhetoric of ww2 does not have echoes in the prese nt day is absurd. I could put a good case that the biggest achievement of the right wing is to persuade people that anyone of a left wing disposition is slightly insane, somehow not quite right and living in cloud cuckoo land.

There you are.

So you agree with me, good.

An equally irrelevant point. You're still droning on about history.

OK you don't agree with me fair enough but IMO anyone who thnks history is irrelevant or people don't take past grievances seriously has their eyes shut. Have a look at the language being used and what is actually happening, history has a habit of repeating itself old conclicts rise to the surface. .

And you think I'm saying that you are not? You stated it in a "factual" tone, not as an "opinion".

If you think I am going to start each sntence with the phrase in my humble opinion don't hold your breath. There are no experts in plitics, someone might offer a different perpective and have greater insight but that's it.

I think that you're taking my comment too personally. Stating opinion as though it is fact is what I am contesting.

If you the facts on hih I am basing my opinion ae wrong then say so an offer a counter, its' a discussion forum after all. Telling me I'm not qualified is no relevant - I nevermade any clim to hav any special qualificatio to speak on the subject and you offer nothing to suggest you are better qualified. You're not qualfied and you are wrong is not much of an argument. i didn't take it personally - hard to do so when I have never met you - it annoyed as a semingly pathetic attempt to end a discussion because you are incapable of offering a convincing counter which I would been interested in hearing, or reading rather.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Fri May 16, 2014 10:57 am

gmc;1454215 wrote: If you think I am going to start each sntence with the phrase in my humble opinion don't hold your breath.

If being unqualified (on the subject) upsets you so, then perhaps you ought to become qualified - or just not take it so personally. It's no big deal. Everyone is ignorant about something.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Fri May 16, 2014 11:24 am

gmc;1454215 wrote: .... I'm assuming english is not your first language.

I thought it was common knowledge.

gmc;1454215 wrote: ... anyone who thnks history is irrelevant ...

Absurd and out of context.

gmc;1454215 wrote: ..... you are incapable of offering a convincing counter which I would been interested in hearing, or reading rather.

The U.S. failed to get the EU on board with its illegal invasion of Irak. We didn't join, we didn't even sanction it. Having wasting his time in Europe, Donald Rumsfeldt went back home and told his countrymen, "If it wasn't for us they'd all be speaking German right now!" Any personal thoughts or comments on that you'd like to share?

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Fri May 16, 2014 1:18 pm

High Threshold;1454288 wrote:

The U.S. failed to get the EU on board with its illegal invasion of Irak. We didn't join, we didn't even sanction it. Having wasting his time in Europe, Donald Rumsfeldt went back home and told his countrymen, "If it wasn't for us they'd all be speaking German right now!" Any personal thoughts or comments on that you'd like to share?

Yes. He meant to say "If it wasn't for us they'd all be eating Weiner's Schnitzel right now!"

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri May 16, 2014 2:04 pm

High Threshold;1454275 wrote: If being unqualified (on the subject) upsets you so, then perhaps you ought to become qualified - or just not take it so personally. It's no big deal. Everyone is ignorant about something.

It doesn't upset me you are the one that made the comment which implies you think you are somehow better qualified to offer an opinion. I don't care whether you are or not when it comes to politics there is only opinion.

Perhaps you felt incapable of countering the points I made with countrpoints based on your own vast knowledge. Ad hominem arguments really don't impress anyone.

Absurd and out of context.

This situation has historical roots. You may think it irrelevant clearly those involved do not. It's not the end of the world if you disgree with someone. Sadly in the it looks like they are getting ready to go to war over their disgreements caused by historical events.

The U.S. failed to get the EU on board with its illegal invasion of Irak. We didn't join, we didn't even sanction it. Having wasting his time in Europe, Donald Rumsfeldt went back home and told his countrymen, "If it wasn't for us they'd all be speaking German right now!" Any personal thoughts or comments on that you'd like to share?

Nope - not really germane to the thread is it.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Fri May 16, 2014 7:43 pm

AnneBoleyn;1454336 wrote: Yes. He meant to say "If it wasn't for us they'd all be eating Weiner's Schnitzel right now!"

Ha-ha! I guess we'll never know for sure but my standard comeback is , "The Nazis told us if they lose the war we'll all be speaking English, drinking Coca Cola, and wearing baseball caps!"

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Fri May 16, 2014 7:50 pm

gmc;1454354 wrote: Nope - not really germane to the thread is it.

Sorry you don't understand the utter and ridiculous relevance of Rumsfeldt's statement and how it might apply to your "One size fits all" historical bearing on all else that follows.

We're not really making any progress here, are we.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Sat May 17, 2014 6:55 am

High Threshold;1454385 wrote: Ha-ha! I guess we'll never know for sure but my standard comeback is , "The Nazis told us if they lose the war we'll all be speaking English, drinking Coca Cola, and wearing baseball caps!"

And my mother would say "Comes the Revolution & we'll all eat Borscht". This was during the cold war. I hate borscht. I think she was threatening me.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sat May 17, 2014 9:13 am

AnneBoleyn;1454411 wrote: And my mother would say "Comes the Revolution & we'll all eat Borscht". This was during the cold war. I hate borscht. I think she was threatening me.

My wife is from Slovakia and she makes it often for herself. Me, I don't like it and I wouldn't have wanted to have been a Kulak, eating it day in and day out. :yh_sad

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat May 17, 2014 10:05 am

High Threshold;1454387 wrote: Sorry you don't understand the utter and ridiculous relevance of Rumsfeldt's statement and how it might apply to your "One size fits all" historical bearing on all else that follows.

We're not really making any progress here, are we.

No we're not. The historical points I made were relevant and not one size fits all.

Putin is neither Stalin nor Hitler. Eastern Ukraine (and Transnistria, for that matter) is all about the large population of ethnic Russians, it's not about conquest. In other words, "poland, slovakia, hungary etc etc" don't figure into it.

I never claimed he was nor did I suggest it was about conquest , why the ethnic russians are there is relevant they're not ethnic to the crimea or to the ukraine. The people there don't think it irrelevent either any more than those in yugoslavia kosovo thought the history was irrelvant when they started killing each other.

I don't know what putin is up to or what happens next and neither I supect do you but realistically he's going to get away with a lot if he wants to. maybe the baltic ports are next who knows

If you think that's irrelevant that's fine by me but just saying it's irrelevant is not much of an argument. I don't agree with you and I'm not wasting any more time on this unless youca come up with something interesting.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sat May 17, 2014 10:12 am

Very well.

katsung47 · Post by **katsung47** » Mon May 19, 2014 4:00 pm

400 US mercenaries 'deployed on ground' in Ukraine military op

400 US mercenaries 'deployed on ground' in Ukraine military op - YouTube

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/article7 ... 28x119.jpg

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon May 19, 2014 10:47 pm

katsung47;1454742 wrote: 400 US mercenaries 'deployed on ground' in Ukraine military op

400 US mercenaries 'deployed on ground' in Ukraine military op - YouTube

]

"It's damaging our reputation." F-me! What reputation might that be?!

katsung47 · Post by **katsung47** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:44 pm

High Threshold;1454773 wrote: "It's damaging our reputation." F-me! What reputation might that be?!

That's why they denied it for.

US Refuses To Take Back 13 Dead CIA Spies Killed In Ukraine

By: Sorcha Faal, and as reported to her Western Subscribers

A stunning Ministry of Defense (MoD) report circulating in the Kremlin today states that the United States has refused to repatriate the bodies of 13 Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) military operatives killed when their helicopters were shot down by pro-federalist forces on the outskirts of Slavyansk, eastern Ukraine this past Friday.

According to this report, on 2 May the Anti-Aircraft Artillery Battalion of the 25th Separate Dnipropetrovsk Airborne Brigade of the Ukrainian Army, which had defected to the side of the pro-federalists in April, fired upon and downed two Russian made Mil Mi-17 transport helicopters belonging to the Ukrainian Air Force that had been attempting to land CIA military “command and control” operatives into the battle zone of Slavyansk.

Of the 14 CIA military operatives aboard the two Mil Mi-17’s, this report continues, only one survived, who was initially identified as Captain Savuilov [photo 2nd left], but whose subsequent questioning revealed him to be an employee of the American mercenary company named Greystone Ltd.

US Refuses To Take Back 13 Dead CIA Spies Killed In Ukraine

Silvio Dante · Post by **Silvio Dante** » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:52 am

May the spirit of the Maidan love long in the hearts of the Ukrainian nation...