Looking for a good debate...

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:04 am

Again Cassie, There is so much more to hunting than the kill. But you wouldn't know about it, and I don't expect you to understand. But please don't lump me in as some nutty, "trigger-happy" freaked out psycho out there shooting up the woods for the thrill. There have been many times I went out and came back empty handed, and was happy just to be out in the woods.

Grey: Again, you are making points for me, and I thank you. It is wrong to lump us all together like that, and the "tree-huggers" do it all the time. It is frustrating. But it's just like us bikers say: "If I have to explain it to you, you'd never get it." It's the same with hunting.

greydeadhead · Post by **greydeadhead** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:06 am

and.. as I stated earlier.. it appears that we will agree to disagree on this. What you view as excuses I see as challenges.. and the taking of the deer is the reward for the hard work involved. So.. as I sit down to my big old venison steak, which btw is much healthier for you than a steak from the meat case, I will do so knowing that the deer had a mucher greater chance of eluding me than the steak from the supermarket did...

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:10 am

Rachelg: Your point is valid. I would NEVER draw my weapon on a person trying to steal my car. Let them have it! Only if someone was trying to break into my house would I draw my weapon, and even then, I would not point it at anything I didn't intend to kill. The rule is announce that you have a gun. That would and has worked. But for a car? No way. It's self-protection, not car protection. He wasn't even in the home.

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:44 am

Bill Sikes wrote: Oh! Cats don't have any objectionable habits or drawbacks then?
I love cats.... And oh heres an interesting , heart ripping tidbit Ill share. My cat Allie

who I found under a dumpster when she was about 4 weeks old... was shot

by some nut in Virginia because he didnt like her visiting his garden. She was the most beautiful long haired cat with enormous green eyes. She used to talk to me.

Ill never forget the look in her eyes, laying on the vets table. She knew...Someone hurt me. It was like she couldnt believe it. I couldnt believe it either.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:50 am

Weeder: In this instance, you are totally correct. That guy is a nut. Odd thing is, my cat was shot once too. My roommate found him, bleeding and crying, and called me. I was working as a vet tech at the time. He brought him in and we operated right then and there, and he's alive and well and shredding my couch right now! His name is Monster. Did your cat make it?

greydeadhead · Post by **greydeadhead** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:55 am

Weeder.. sorry to hear that you had to experience and A**hole like that. It is that type person that gives 1,000 responsible gun owners and hunters a bad name. My apologies..

rachelg · Post by **rachelg** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:13 pm

BabyRider wrote: Rachelg: Your point is valid. I would NEVER draw my weapon on a person trying to steal my car. Let them have it! Only if someone was trying to break into my house would I draw my weapon, and even then, I would not point it at anything I didn't intend to kill. The rule is announce that you have a gun. That would and has worked. But for a car? No way. It's self-protection, not car protection. He wasn't even in the home.
That's cool

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:46 pm

BabyRider wrote: Am I doing this wrong? Responding to each individual thread? HELP!!! Any tips to make this simpler would be welcome! I'm just kind of fumbling around blindly, guessing at the best way to do things. If I annoy anyone, let me know how to do it better!

Rachel, I have a feeling you and I will agree on most things concerning pets!

Everyone has been really great, thanks so much for the welcomes, everyone!
Doing good! Just quote the person you are responding to so we can see what thread you are talking about. I'm enjoying reading this thread!

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:50 pm

Hello again Tombstone! (I just responded to your post in my "how not to get banned" thread.) Now, please pardon my ignorance, but is it possible to just quote a portion of the thread you are responding to? I see the quote button in each screen, but some are quite long, and I'd hate to re-post the whole thing and irritate everyone.

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:56 pm

BabyRider wrote: Hello again Tombstone! (I just responded to your post in my "how not to get banned" thread.) Now, please pardon my ignorance, but is it possible to just quote a portion of the thread you are responding to? I see the quote button in each screen, but some are quite long, and I'd hate to re-post the whole thing and irritate everyone.
yes, use the quote button - and then edit between the

"[ quote] and [/quote ]" to use what you need.

persephone · Post by **persephone** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:10 pm

Or select wanted quote text only, copy and paste putting it like so [ quote ]SELECTED QUOTE TEXT[ /quote ]

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:43 pm

BabyRider wrote: Weeder: In this instance, you are totally correct. That guy is a nut. Odd thing is, my cat was shot once too. My roommate found him, bleeding and crying, and called me. I was working as a vet tech at the time. He brought him in and we operated right then and there, and he's alive and well and shredding my couch right now! His name is Monster. Did your cat make it?
Baby Rider... Allie died. But heres another one. My business does a lot of funeral work. Can you guess what it is? Last month an uncle and his young nephew were wild boar hunting here in Georgia. Makes me think opf Lord of The Flies.

I cant believe people chase wild boar through the woods. But anyway........

Uncle and nephew were struggling with this wounded pig , caught in the under brush. The nephews gun went off... killed the uncle. 42 years old.. left 2 children behind. I guess the problem is people taking up a dangerous sport,, Not being interested in becoming expert at it, doing it in a half assed way, and getting hurt.

My job with Suzuki was to help people get their motorcycle liscences, once they had purchased a bike. Many of them didnt want liscences, they didnt want to wear helmets, and they certainly didnt want to hear anything about safety from a female. So.. what are you going to do. Our differences make the world go round.

And our life experiences formulate our opinions about everything. If we all felt

exactly the same.. life would be pretty boring.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:50 pm

Der Wulf wrote: Before my uh --maturety caught up with me, i raced dirt bikes, hunting, fishing, and camping were passions. all kinds of discussions abound here, I'm currently trying to corral some Euro types to discuss Iraq.

I plan eventually get involved in some gun discussions.

Pretty sure you'll like it here, good folks. So from the desert side of the garden, welcome.:-6

Hello again Der Wulf,

I wish the US had never got involved in IRAQ.

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 3:33 pm

A good percentage of Americans feel that way also. Unfortunately, despite what we are led to believe........ We dont have anything to say about it.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 7:44 pm

Uncle and nephew were struggling with this wounded pig , caught in the under brush. The nephews gun went off... killed the uncle. 42 years old.. left 2 children behind. I guess the problem is people taking up a dangerous sport,, Not being interested in becoming expert at it, doing it in a half assed way, and getting hurt.

I'm sorry for your loss, that is sad.

Again, like airplanes crashing, you don't hear about all the flights that land safely, and you don't hear about the thousands of hunters coming home safe every year. All you hear about is the bad. What kind of news story or article would make it stating "7 million hunters went out this season and not one of them got hurt."?

And you're correct in saying that some take up a dangerous sport with no training. Your uncle and his (son? nephew?) should never have approached an animal they weren't sure was dead. Those suckers are mean enough when they aren't wounded! And the nephew should have never had his weapon loaded. There are many precautions to take when hunting, and it sounds like they didn't put any of them into practice. And of course, that means nothing when you have lost a family member in a hunting accident. I can fully understand your aversion to the sport, and I have no interest in trying to change anyone's views. Maybe give people something to think about, sure. I would just like for those who don't advocate hunting to have more to the story than most seem to have.

So again, weeder, I'm sorry for the loss you suffered.

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:12 pm

Fox hunting in Britain is finally to be banned, and about time too, the government has finally bowed to public opinion and agreed that it is indeed a barbaric "sport".

And before anyone bleats on about the fox killing chickens & livestock & so they deserve to be killed, i too have had a coop raided by a fox but that was my fault for not making it secure & yes its upsetting & yes it makes you angry, enough to get a hunt together with 40 dogs to chase the fox for miles across fields untill it drops from exaustion & then ripped apart by the hounds??.....ER NO

HAPPY HUNTING BABYRIDER....NOT.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:25 pm

Well, Abbey, I have no idea about any of the policies involving hunting in Britain. So I won't say whether or not hunting should or shouldn't be banned there. What I do know about is the havoc wreaked by whitetail deer here in the U.S. Did you read my stats on the problems caused by over-population? Because trust me, those are very real. Millions of dollars in crop damage, injuries from car/deer crashes, deer starving and being maimed by cars. Our way of trying to control that is by licensed hunting. So, thankfully, there are plenty of "happy hunting" days in my future.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:26 pm

BTW Abbey, I will add that I am not fond of hunting parties that use dogs to shred their prey. That practice is sometimes used here for bear and mountain lion, and I am not a fan.

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 12:51 am

BabyRider wrote: Uncle and nephew were struggling with this wounded pig , caught in the under brush. The nephews gun went off... killed the uncle. 42 years old.. left 2 children behind. I guess the problem is people taking up a dangerous sport,, Not being interested in becoming expert at it, doing it in a half assed way, and getting hurt.

I'm sorry for your loss, that is sad.

Again, like airplanes crashing, you don't hear about all the flights that land safely, and you don't hear about the thousands of hunters coming home safe every year. All you hear about is the bad. What kind of news story or article would make it stating "7 million hunters went out this season and not one of them got hurt."?

And you're correct in saying that some take up a dangerous sport with no training. Your uncle and his (son? nephew?) should never have approached an animal they weren't sure was dead. Those suckers are mean enough when they aren't wounded! And the nephew should have never had his weapon loaded. There are many precautions to take when hunting, and it sounds like they didn't put any of them into practice. And of course, that means nothing when you have lost a family member in a hunting accident. I can fully understand your aversion to the sport, and I have no interest in trying to change anyone's views. Maybe give people something to think about, sure. I would just like for those who don't advocate hunting to have more to the story than most seem to have.

So again, weeder, I'm sorry for the loss you suffered.Baby Rider It is 3am

Im laughing and laughing. Thank you for the condolences.. It wasnt MY UNCLE.

My family visits game farms to PET the animals.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 2:08 am

BabyRider wrote: I don't use a high-powered rifle, mostly I use my bow. Which means I have to get within 15 or 20 yards of the deer. Believe me Cassie, the deer has a real good chance of getting away.

How much chance has it of "geting away" with an arrow or quarrel sticking into it?

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 2:17 am

abbey wrote: Fox hunting in Britain is finally to be banned, and about time too, the government has finally bowed to public opinion and agreed that it is indeed a barbaric "sport".

(snip) to get a hunt together with 40 dogs to chase the fox for miles across fields untill it drops from exaustion & then ripped apart by the hounds??

Erm, hounds, dear, not "dogs". Although it is possibly a subject for another thread, were I a fox, and had the choice, I'd *far* rather be hunted by hounds than shot at, gassed, or poisoned....

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 2:33 am

Bill Sikes wrote: Erm, hounds, dear, not "dogs". Although it is possibly a subject for another thread, were I a fox, and had the choice, I'd *far* rather be hunted by hounds than shot at, gassed, or poisoned....
Well its all really a matter of opinion is'nt it "dear" given the choices available i'm sure the foxes would much rather plump for a clear shot to the head than being "hounded" until its hearts fit to bursting before giving up the chase to a pack of baying animals (the huntsmen) whilst their "hounds" rip into it before cutting its tail off for a trophy...Sport eh??

Its about the only good thing Blair & his cronies have done for the country.

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 2:40 am

They do GET AWAY ......WOUNDED....... Then they stumble onto a highway...

disorientated and confused........ and a car or truck finishes them off for the

HUNTERS.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 2:54 am

abbey wrote: Well its all really a matter of opinion is'nt it "dear" given the choices available i'm sure the foxes would much rather plump for a clear shot to the head than being "hounded" until its hearts fit to bursting before giving up the chase to a pack of baying animals (the huntsmen) whilst their "hounds" rip into it before cutting its tail off for a trophy...Sport eh??

Its about the only good thing Blair & his cronies have done for the country.

Sorry, "dear" was supposed to be rather tongue in cheek.... my point about "rather being hunted" was simply that there is a far better chance of getting away, and if not, being killed is certain. When being shot at, even someone who is a poor shot can *hit* a fox-sized target... a "clear shot to the head" sounds fine, but does the poor beast get killed outright, have part of its muzzle shot off, get a bullet through the jaw, or throat, or what? Another thread, if you want (P.S. the closest I've got to hunting with hounds is following on foot/in car, once).

Oh, and Blair. How unspeakable. I agree.

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:18 am

Thats it. I will NEVER even put my toe in any topic involving politics or politicians again. I feel so stupid. I thought that Tony Blair was a good guy. I have a lot of learning to do.

polycarp · Post by **polycarp** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:42 am

Hello everyone, I'm polycarp from Nigeria. Its cool to be among you and i must say that forumGarden is a place to be. I am particulrly impressed by the way issues are discussed here and i hope to contribute in my own little way.

First and foremost, although am a Nigerian, I like Tony Blair a great deal and remain an advocate to quite a number of his policies. The issue of using hounds or not to hunt was an issue ratified by the parliament, who are representatives of the people, so I dare say that it is what most Britons want. I hold the same opinion for the U.S. where my other hero Bush is doing a good job, as far as i am concerned. Cheers

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:17 am

Bonjour..... So now I feel better. If bush and Blair are both your heroes.. I didnt have the wrong impression. Blair risked himself by aligning himself with Bush. So

he was highly thought of by Bush supporters. But not necessarily by the English.

I would have to have an understanding of Issues pending in England to understand why the citizens are pleased with him or not. Makes sensce. This forum is broadening my interest in what is going on in the world, beyond my own front door. That is a good and wonderful thing.

polycarp · Post by **polycarp** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:24 am

Weeder wrote "If bush and Blair are both your heroes.. I didnt have the wrong impression. Blair risked himself by aligning himself with Bush".

That's quite true Weeder, you may ask what are friend's for? In addition to that, the US and Britain are traditional allies, so I don't see how Blair(Britain) could say no to Bush (U.S.), in spite of the U.K.'s romance with the European Union and its members like Germany and France that are somewhat against a number of American policies like the invasion os Iraq.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 9:30 am

Weeder, I guess I'm really confused then...This is a story you read about in the paper or something? Well don't I feel silly. (haha) When you said "uncle and nephew" in your post I assumed you meant YOUR uncle and his nephew. *Sheesh* Sorry about the confusion weeder, but I am sorry Allie died.

(I'm kind of laughing at myself, too)

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 9:39 am

Well this is cool, after addressing Bill Sikes, I can leave this thread alone for you all to discuss Tony Blair. Bill, "dear", If a deer has one of MY arrows in it, it dosen't stand a chance. I am a very good shot and I won't take the chance of a poor shot. And "dogs" "hounds", whatever, I was a vet tech and an animal behaviorist, they are one in the same to me. I'll leave you to your Tony Blair discussion now.

rachelg · Post by **rachelg** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:00 am

Out of curiousity, Bill, in your country, what is supposed to be the difference between "dogs" and "hounds". In the USA, a hound is a type of dog. :p

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:04 am

BabyRider wrote: Well this is cool, after addressing Bill Sikes, I can leave this thread alone for you all to discuss Tony Blair. Bill, "dear", If a deer has one of MY arrows in it, it dosen't stand a chance. I am a very good shot and I won't take the chance of a poor shot.

Oh, don't be so thin-skinned, baby-rider. I only asked. It's surprising that hunting deer with bows is still permitted in the U.S.A.

BabyRider wrote: And "dogs" "hounds", whatever, I was a vet tech and an animal behaviorist, they are one in the same to me.

So you wer a "vet tech" (WTF is that?) but know nothing of classifications?

BabyRider wrote: I'll leave you to your Tony Blair discussion now.

Not much to discuss, really. It seems all posters agree to a great extent - he's a "rissole".

polycarp · Post by **polycarp** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:08 am

Hello BabyRider, that is the beauty of discourse, the fact that it can move from one subject to another and probably back again to the main issue of hunting. Whoever wants to comment on hunting is still welcome as that is the main topic you started this thread with, meanwhile being a political issue, talking about the gentlemen Bush and Blair cannot be digression. So let the discourse continue.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:10 am

I am far from thin-skinned! Sheesh, I'm a bartender now, you gotta be thick-skinned to do that! The problem with communicating over the net is that nuances in voices can't be heard. If you read my posts, you'll find I try to keep a pretty level head. Why are you surprised that bowhunting is still allowed here?

And classifications? Are you speaking of "groups"? "Working group", "sporting group" "terrier group", etc? Is that what you're refferring to? Because the AKC separates our breeds into "groups", and hounds is one of them, yes, but we have many many breeds used for hunting. Please clarify.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:12 am

Hey, Polycarp...I was actually relieved when the conversation took a turn! I was getting a bit of "typers cramp" defending my hunting! :wah:

Please continue!! This is a subject I am not read up on, maybe I can learn something!

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:16 am

Sorry for the multiple posts, guys...I missed one of Bill's questions:

A vet tech is like a nurse, but in animal medicine. Dr.'s diagnose, operate and prescribe medication. Techs do EVERYTHING else. Initial exams, lab work, assisting in surgery, prepping for surgery, and a whole list way too long to put here. :wah:

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:17 am

rachelg wrote: Out of curiousity, Bill, in your country, what is supposed to be the difference between "dogs" and "hounds". In the USA, a hound is a type of dog. :p

A hound is a type of dog used for hunting. It's a bit infra dig to refer to them merely as "dogs". Basset, blood, grey, oter, wolf, deer, beagle - especially well-known is the fox-hound.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:19 am

polycarp wrote: Hello BabyRider, that is the beauty of discourse, the fact that it can move from one subject to another and probably back again to the main issue of hunting.

"Thread drift". I just wish "viewing threaded" wasn't so clunky. Oh for Usenet.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:20 am

Uh, Bill?... "infra dig"?????????????? WTF is that? *confused*

rachelg · Post by **rachelg** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:26 am

In the USA, we have many groups of dogs that hunt. The Hound Group, divided into scent & sighthounds (I've owned Afghan Hounds) :guitarist is one group, but the Sporting Group has hunting dogs too. They are often retrievers, like my Cocker Spaniels. Many members of the Terrier group hunt as well, usually they hunt vermin. So when we say dogs, we can mean any of them.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:26 am

BabyRider wrote: Why are you surprised that bowhunting is still allowed here?

'Cos it's illegal here - as is taking deer with shot-guns (in most circumstances) and the most common small-bore rifles. This, AFAIR is on welfare grounds.

rachelg · Post by **rachelg** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:28 am

Bill Sikes wrote: This, AFAIR is on welfare grounds.
What does that mean, exactly :-3

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:29 am

BabyRider wrote: Uh, Bill?... "infra dig"?????????????? WTF is that?

Um, sort of undignified.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:33 am

There is an "undignified" way to refer to groups of dogs?? That's just odd. And let me ask again...Hunting is banned where you live, so why should it surprise you that it is banned here, too? Do you know anything of the problems caused by the over-population of whitetail deer here? You want to criticize me for hunting, but know nothing of the circumstances here? (Again, not thin-skinned, just pursuing my point.)

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:35 am

BabyRider wrote: A vet tech is like a nurse, but in animal medicine. Dr.'s diagnose, operate and prescribe medication. Techs do EVERYTHING else. Initial exams, lab work, assisting in surgery, prepping for surgery, and a whole list way too long to put here.

Like http://www.connexions.gov.uk/jobs4u/summary.cfm?id=280 - maybe more?

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:38 am

rachelg wrote: What does that mean, exactly

That someone has determined that deer taken using a bow or crossbow are more likely to suffer pain and distress than deer shot using the appropriate rifle. Note "more likely".

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:44 am

For the job summary link, yes. But there are several other lists on that page, to the right. Check out Kennel worker and Animal technician as well as Nurse, add the lists together, include about 15 more responsibilities, and you're getting close!

OK, as for your 2nd post...Who has determined that a deer taken with a bow or crossbow suffers more?

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:46 am

BabyRider wrote: let me ask again...Hunting is banned where you live, so why should it surprise you that it is banned here, too?

I don't understand that. I think you've miss-triped something.

BabyRider wrote: Do you know anything of the problems caused by the over-population of whitetail deer here?

Yes.

BabyRider wrote: You want to criticize me for hunting, but know nothing of the circumstances here? (Again, not thin-skinned, just pursuing my point.)

I wasn't aware that I had criticised you for hunting.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:47 am

Bill Sikes wrote: Um, sort of undignified. The proposed ban in Britain has pitted the government against rural dwellers and the Royal Family, but the hunt supporters aren't giving up just yet. They are even saying that they would be welcome in Ireland.

LOL. For now.

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:48 am

BabyRider wrote: Weeder, I guess I'm really confused then...This is a story you read about in the paper or something? Well don't I feel silly. (haha) When you said "uncle and nephew" in your post I assumed you meant YOUR uncle and his nephew. *Sheesh* Sorry about the confusion weeder, but I am sorry Allie died.

(I'm kind of laughing at myself, too)
Im a FLORIST baby Rider............. FUNERAL WORK........... GET IT?

Its amazing I can express myself at all at 3am. Good for some laughs anyway.