Me thinks he doth protest too much

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:21 pm

Have you all experienced this phenomena to be true?

When a person exclaims "I never lie!" THEY LIE........ OFTEN.

When they say "I have everything" They have nothing.

As they exclaim.. "I didnt mean to offend you".. Thats exactly what they intended to do. Reading between the lines is an acquired art. A skill worth cultivating .. to insure success in this world. What experiences have you had with verbal manipulators.. How has the experience affected your behavior regarding interaction with others.

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:31 pm

"Honestly hon i never have and never will sleep with her" she was expecting his baby 2 months later!!

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:32 pm

"All generalizations are faulty....including this one!"

sometimes the traits you mention are true. but not always. and not always consistently - i'm a master at verbal manipulation under some circumstances - and under other circumstances i'm about as silver-tongued as a six year old at the ice cream store.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:36 pm

i'm curious why this is in the 'request a new forum here' area. when you post here, the forumgarden admins get notified, which isn't really helpful, since it's not a new forum request....

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:52 pm

Firstly, my comment is not a generalization.. its an inquiry. Have you found this to be true?

Secondly, I apologize I dont know my way well enough around the set up , to start a topic. Tell me.. where do I do it properly?

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:15 pm

weeder wrote: Firstly, my comment is not a generalization.. its an inquiry. Have you found this to be true?

Secondly, I apologize I dont know my way well enough around the set up , to start a topic. Tell me.. where do I do it properly?
my mention of the generalization was only as a meta comment of sorts.

no offense intended. :yh_bigsmi

to start a new topic, just go up to the 'top' of forumgarden (click the forumgarden logo) and then find a place you think your topic might fit.

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:24 pm

anastrophe wrote: i'm curious why this is in the 'request a new forum here' area. when you post here, the forumgarden admins get notified, which isn't really helpful, since it's not a new forum request....
(moved to Chit-Chat)

Paula · Post by **Paula** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:55 pm

weeder wrote: Have you all experienced this phenomena to be true?

When a person exclaims "I never lie!" THEY LIE........ OFTEN.

When they say "I have everything" They have nothing.

As they exclaim.. "I didnt mean to offend you".. Thats exactly what they intended to do. Reading between the lines is an acquired art. A skill worth cultivating .. to insure success in this world. What experiences have you had with verbal manipulators.. How has the experience affected your behavior regarding interaction with others.

There is alot going on in this paragraph. Verbal Manipulation happens daily in life from telemarketers, junk mail, phone companys. There is nothing to read, you hang up or throw it away. I pay no attention to liars, who cares about them? I can tell early on if the person is worth talking to, when i feel threaten, i tape the conversation to avoid the tongue of a liar coming back.

A Karenina · Post by **A Karenina** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:41 pm

weeder wrote: Have you all experienced this phenomena to be true?

When a person exclaims "I never lie!" THEY LIE........ OFTEN.

When they say "I have everything" They have nothing.

As they exclaim.. "I didnt mean to offend you".. Thats exactly what they intended to do. Reading between the lines is an acquired art. A skill worth cultivating .. to insure success in this world. What experiences have you had with verbal manipulators.. How has the experience affected your behavior regarding interaction with others.
Interesting question.

When someone says "I never lie," then clearly they are trying to cover something up. Everyone lies to some degree at some point.

However, I would believe someone who says they never steal, or kill, or do drugs, or jump out of airplanes...I can't quite find the logic in this, but there ya go. LOL

When they say they have everything, I feel that they are convincing themselves. It doesn't bother me, because I have to convince myself of things, too. I have to teach myself to be grateful for what I have. Some days I am a slow learner!

When people say they didn't mean to offend me, I believe them...probably because I often say this and I really don't mean to offend when I say it.

If I want to insult someone, then I don't apologize for it. Well, at least not in that moment...sometimes I come back later and apologize for losing my temper.

Being nosy, was this caused by a specific event? If so, do you want to talk about it?

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:53 pm

Perception is reality....yes? Whatever a certain person PERCEIVES to be true, is the truth to them. When people say "I NEVER lie", yes, you tend to wonder, because ALL people are capable of lying and in fact, do just that almost every day of their lives. And the average intelligent person KNOWS this.

However, if a person claims "I never steal, kill, or do drugs", then it is more believable, because the average intelligent person does not do these things.

A lot of people, given this kind of anonymous, "I-can-be-anything-I-want" atmosphere, (like here in the Garden) will tend to talk themselves up. Those of us with more self-confidence and honesty with ourselves, are willing to let our true selves be seen. And can see the B.S.er's for what they are. Therefore we are able to relate more honestly with others and can communicate on an honest and intelligible plane. There are some here who are not capable of this kind of intelligence. Pity.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:57 pm

A Karenina wrote: Interesting question.

Everyone lies to some degree at some point.

that's a lie and you know it!!

:yh_bigsmi

libertine · Post by **libertine** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 11:22 pm

The statement that alwys throws a flag up for me is someone saying "I'm outspoken, I tell it like it is" Which on the face of it may be true, but it has been my experience that those people are the ones who don't want to HEAR it like it is.

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 4:04 am

The ability to speak is one of the most valuable gifts we have. Each word we send out has power. Speaking carelessly is similar to reckless driving. Sincerity warms the heart of listeners as it travels through the ears. and to the heart.The ability to lie comfortably is acquired by those who have walked through a secret door..discovered it is possible,and are comfortable with the ruse. Advanced liars are actually fabricators. They have lied so well for so long, that they actually believe the things that they say. You all must think Im nuts. And yes, I have experienced the damage wrought by an entire family of pathological liars.

As we walk through life,interacting verbally with other human beings.... it is imperative that we learn to recognize the tell tale signs of verbal manipulators.

The skill will save a wise person...money,time,energy, and grief.

On the other hand...Learning to be an expert listener teaches us to recognize crys for help.

Language Arts.. One of my favorite subjects. Not only taught to our children to teach them to be creative... Also taught to give them the skills necessary to keep

them out of harms way.

A Karenina · Post by **A Karenina** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 10:05 am

a karenina wrote: Everyone lies to some degree at some point. anastrophe wrote: that's a lie and you know it!!:yh_bigsmi
Can't be! I NEVER lie!!

A Karenina · Post by **A Karenina** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 10:15 am

weeder wrote: The ability to lie comfortably is acquired by those who have walked through a secret door..discovered it is possible,and are comfortable with the ruse. Advanced liars are actually fabricators. They have lied so well for so long, that they actually believe the things that they say. You all must think Im nuts.You'll have to work harder at it than this if you wanna be nuts. LOL.

I agree that some people do lie to build themselves up, to create an illusion of who they are. Oddly enough, they are not usually skilled at keeping that illusion in place...

I'm going to take this momen to confess something that has been bothering me.

There is a man at work who does exactly what you're saying here. He tries to build a persona for himself verbally rather than putting the effort into being what he says he is. He has a good heart, I think, but he doesn't walk the walk - ya know?

He spent many hours bragging about himself and insulting his team. I've pointed out to him several times that I know his team, my best friend is on his team, but he kept on...like he was incapable of stopping the lies once they had started.

I ended up venting to my best friend, who went to their boss, and now he is in trouble. This wasn't my intent, so I feel terrible about it....my confession.

At any rate, I feel bad for this man who lies to build himself up. I wish he would recognize the good things in himself and show that face to the world. But it's not my choice...and I have to add that I have the luxury of feeling bad for him because he is not involved with me personally.

Der Wulf · Post by **Der Wulf** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:21 pm

Didya ever notice that most folks tend to suspect others of the things they are likely to do themselves?:)

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:41 pm

Absolutely correct.. Or accuse others of behavior they exhibit themselves.

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:42 pm

HA HA HA Thats exactly what you said! I am losing my mind.

Paula · Post by **Paula** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 4:46 pm

I don't have time for Horse Manure nor to have time to care who says what about me. Who has the time to take apart every word and ask why did you say that. I was taught young - no fork tongue. At my age these things don't matter, i don't invite people to dump on me. There is no room in my life for idiots, because this is what identfies you are talking about, losers? I have attained people skills through the years of self-employment, i have seen alot (i do not want to say all) pot heads & sniffers are the most dishonest. I don't want to continue my entire experience as it could be taken personally, all i can say is you cannot believe everything you hear? Manipulators don't even try it. Seen enough of them..you have to have an electrical fence around you at all times...ZAP...did you feel that?

persephone · Post by **persephone** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:09 pm

Der Wulf wrote: Didya ever notice that most folks tend to suspect others of the things they are likely to do themselves?:)I do this, but I'm not always likely to do the things I suspect others of doing, just that the more life experience you have, the more you know what people are capable of doing.

Der Wulf · Post by **Der Wulf** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:18 pm

letha wrote: I do this, but I'm not always likely to do the things I suspect others of doing, just that the more life experience you have, the more you know what people are capable of doing.
In my callow youth, i worked as an insurance investigator for a couple of years. One of my favorite technique's was to convince the suspect that his neighbor was under investigation, and there was a reward for information. I would then ask him what about his neighbor i should watch for, more times than not, he would tell me what he was doing. Usually the more conspiratorial the tone, the more likely the involvment. :sneaky:

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:57 pm

It's called projection. Quite the fabulous phenomenon to watch.

Re: Lying

One of my favourite quotations:

"Me? Lie? No, no, no...The truth is FAR too much fun!" (Captian Hook from Hook)

I do lie on occasion but very rarely for two reasons. 1)I'm not good at it. 2) I hate trying to keep track of things I made up. It is much easier to remember the truth.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 10:56 pm

koan wrote: It's called projection. Quite the fabulous phenomenon to watch.

Re: Lying

One of my favourite quotations:

"Me? Lie? No, no, no...The truth is FAR too much fun!" (Captian Hook from Hook)

I do lie on occasion but very rarely for two reasons. 1)I'm not good at it. 2) I hate trying to keep track of things I made up. It is much easier to remember the truth.
This is true with most people, I think. To lie effectively, (to an intelligent person), takes skill. And I also wonder how pathological liars keep all the lies they tell straight. But...like Weeder said, fabricators BELIEVE the lies they tell. And it really is sad, pathetic, even. I have dealt with many people like this in my line of work. (And other places...) They have the potential to be a great person, but the inferiority that they feel, for whatever reason, causes them to make things up. To create a whole separate, and false, personality or identity, to be what they think is accepted. These people lack confidence, self-esteem, and usually respect for other people. Me? I'm just me. This is how I am, good, bad or indifferent. I don't feel the need to try mold myself into some image of what everyone else MIGHT think is better. How totally exhausting that must be!!! And frustrating! Not to mention the fact that it never gives anyone else the chance to really know them.

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:10 am

Bragging is another whopping indicator of the insensitive pesonality. I have found it usually goes hand in hand with lying, as they are both tools used to create an desired image. When the two are joined together,such confusion is presented, the llistener becomes enthralled confused, and so amazed. that often we continue to listen. My friend was such a braggart that it got to the point where his lies were humiliating. The worst was that he used to refer to himself as A vietnam vet, and he hadnt been to Vietnam. He had an obsession with the military. He considered it to be a very masculine life experience. Not patriotic mind you.. masculine. So he turned 4 years of pushing papers off the coast of New Jersey into time served over seas. He called all people who rented homes NESTERS. You had to be a home OWNER in order to be considered a viable human being. Absolutely no compassion, or acknowledgement for the accomplishment s of others.Physical indications of the untruthful are.. Eyes glazed over , like they are visiting an exotic island. No eye contact at all, or moving around the room rapidly.. words shooting out of their mouths like machine gun fire. Costumes are also popular with fabricators.. Dressing in a way that gives the impression of interests pursued.

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:13 am

yoshman wrote: Quite right koan !

When I was a teen I lied so much that one day I realized that my lies had become transparent. Worse, it had been so for some time, unbeknowst to me. It dawned on me then that everybody I knew was aware that i was a liar. How embarassed I was! Since that day I tell the truth, for good or for bad. At least the truth as I know it. After a while your lies catch up to you. You tell lies to cover lies, and soon its become such a morass that you can't remember what lies you told to who....OK Im alright now.

Peace
Thats great! It also is a huge human being who can admit to recognizing a character flaw and changing it. Im proud of you! See these topics can have value. I have character flaws also... I am still working on them everyday.

Der Wulf · Post by **Der Wulf** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:02 am

Olly wrote: Personally, I think that people who feel a need to fabricate lives for themselves are deeply unhappy people who feel profoundly inadequate in their own lives and therefore feel the need to fabricate alter egoes for themselves, rather sad really...
Does that mean that the human who fabricated Der Wulf as an alter ego, has a problem with "profound inadequacy"? Does he fantasize having a hairy body, bushy tail, sharp teeth, and howling at the moon? :-3

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:08 am

Anything is possibe..or he could have a fantastically imaginative mind... I have always wanted to be Peter Pan... Still would be if I could. That is why although I am quite lovely... (Im having a good self esteem day ha ha ha ) I have a very pronounced masculine side. Drawn to hobbies that utilize physical strength, agressive like a male.. emmotionally fragile like a female. My characteristics were never created to deceive anyone. I wear myself on my sleeve.

cars · Post by **cars** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 12:44 pm

weeder wrote: The ability to speak is one of the most valuable gifts we have. Each word we send out has power. Speaking carelessly is similar to reckless driving. Sincerity warms the heart of listeners as it travels through the ears. and to the heart.The ability to lie comfortably is acquired by those who have walked through a secret door..discovered it is possible,and are comfortable with the ruse. Advanced liars are actually fabricators. They have lied so well for so long, that they actually believe the things that they say. You all must think Im nuts. And yes, I have experienced the damage wrought by an entire family of pathological liars.

As we walk through life,interacting verbally with other human beings.... it is imperative that we learn to recognize the tell tale signs of verbal manipulators.

The skill will save a wise person...money,time,energy, and grief.

On the other hand...Learning to be an expert listener teaches us to recognize crys for help.

Language Arts.. One of my favorite subjects. Not only taught to our children to teach them to be creative... Also taught to give them the skills necessary to keep

them out of harms way.

Extremely well said! Totally agree! And NO, you're not nuts!

Cars :driving:

LottomagicZ4941 · Post by **LottomagicZ4941** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:05 am

Have you ever noticed the comment "no comment" is infact a comment?

Lotto

http://www.flalottomagic.net/cgi-local/ ... elcome-344

MagicZ4941A

Paula · Post by **Paula** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:50 am

LottomagicZ4941 wrote: Have you ever noticed the comment "no comment" is infact a comment?

Lotto

http://www.flalottomagic.net/cgi-local/ ... elcome-344

MagicZ4941A

hahahahahahaha, thats right! :wah: i'm not sure, but you know.

LottomagicZ4941 · Post by **LottomagicZ4941** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:06 pm

"Suffering from truth decay? Brush up on your bible!" That is a fairly new signature or have I been a real big nightshift vegtable?

I was just reading Genisis per the wife. Tried to get her into the new testoment but she wanted to start from the beginning.

Anyway I thought the fist bait and switch was Leah for Rebecca. But actually Jacob did one earlier pretending to be his brother. So I don't feel as bad for him now that I have reread the story.