The lines of patriotism - input needed

[A Karenina]

I don't usually ask for advice...I just give it. I'm half kidding on that one.



I have a knotty problem, and I wonder if anyone else has any experience with it.

I'd really appreciate some input.



I have a friend who enjoys talking politics. Over the past year or more, his conversations have become very anti-American. Not the usual "how could we elect Bush" type stuff...but more along the lines of gleeful anticipation of our eventual downfall. I'll offer more detail about that if you need it to make a careful judgment of this situation.



At first, I ignored it but then it became overwhelming. I guess my question is how seriously do we take these things? What is our responsibility?



Thank you.

[Bothwell]

You verbally defend your country. Bush is not the country it's people, YOU are, I hope this person is not actually living in this country that he/she hopes will fail.

The USA is like any other country and so is it's leadership they get it right some time they get it wrong sometime that's the way it is. The downfall of America could surely not be seen as a good thing for the world in it's current state.

It amuses me a great deal over here when our chattering classes go on about bush and his neocon buddies wanting to take over the world, it is only 150 years ago that we Brits did the same thing, we invaded scores of countries, took their natural resources, subjugated and in some cases enslaved the people, plus sa change.

[Bill Sikes]

A Karenina wrote: I have a friend who enjoys talking politics. Over the past year or more, his conversations have become very anti-American. Not the usual "how could we elect Bush" type stuff...but more along the lines of gleeful anticipation of our eventual downfall. I'll offer more detail about that if you need it to make a careful judgment of this situation.



At first, I ignored it but then it became overwhelming. I guess my question is how seriously do we take these things? What is our responsibility?


Seems to me that it would be best to ignore it, or steer the conversation away from politics, or cease regarding him as a friend, if it matters that much to you....

Just looking at your psot, it seems that you're thinking vaguely of reporting him to someone-or-other - am I barking up the wrong tree? Has he intimated that he will somehow hasten this putative downfall in some way?

[gmc]

You don't mention what nationality he/she is. If British just point out we were stupid enough to elect Blair-talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

[BabyRider]

Personally, I'd like to hear a bit more about what sort of things he's saying. There is a lot of heated debate and opinion, given the current state of affairs. One of those opinions is that America will ultimately fall. Talking about it is one thing, plotting ways to make it happen is another. Is this person a good friend? Do you trust him? I guess I need more info. to really tell you what I think.

[capt_buzzard]

gmc wrote: You don't mention what nationality he/she is. If British just point out we were stupid enough to elect Blair-talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Hmmm who would you put in Tony B's place?

[Der Wulf]

A Karenina wrote: . Not the usual "how could we elect Bush" type stuff...but more along the lines of gleeful anticipation of our eventual downfall.



At first, I ignored it but then it became overwhelming.
Not nearly enough info for a good analysis. Need to know more about him, personality, age, capabilities, couple of quotes.



On the surface it sounds immature, and probably serious denial of reality. By overwelming, do you mean incessantly, or it's changed his persona?

[Lon]

Ignore it or get upset listening to such drivel. In my lifetime, I have never, ever seen or heard such venomous, hateful comments directed towards Bush, the Administration and the U.S. in general. By many Americans (my countrymen), and some folks here in New Zealand and Australia. It's not just disagreement, but abject hatred.

[Der Wulf]

Lon wrote: Ignore it or get upset listening to such drivel. In my lifetime, I have never, ever seen or heard such venomous, hateful comments directed towards Bush, the Administration and the U.S. in general. By many Americans (my countrymen), and some folks here in New Zealand and Australia. It's not just disagreement, but abject hatred.
Agreed, I honestly wish I could find a rational explanation, the fact that it's irrational is not a satisfactory answer. :-5

[A Karenina]

You guys rock! Lots of great responses so far. I'll try to answer all of the questions asked.

He does live in the US now, and has been here for over 25 years. He is currently trying to get citizenship - which I think is a lousy idea, all things considered.

I've known him for over 6 years. Oh geeezzz, why am I being so mysterious? I've dated him for the past 6 years. I broke up with him last Sunday after a very ugly fight about how rotten we are for stealing Indian lands, and the religious aspects of gay marriage. I did not throw him out because of his views. He was very loud, very mean, and I just won't be treated that way.

I did tell him to move elsewhere if he was so unhappy, and he informed me that I was speaking like a true f***ed up redneck. My "type" deserves everything it's gonna get...and so on.

Over the past year, his anger level has risen to that brutal level of hatred mentioned here, and in other threads. He's never threatened violence himself, but has expressed a hope that we get bombed so we can figure out what it feels like, that someone has to stop us, etc.

In this situation, I will most likely do nothing. Any complaints I have could easily be denounced as vengeance or alienation of affection or whatever. But mostly, I find it hard to believe he really feels this way since he has two American children that he adores. Bombing us means bombing them, as I've pointed out on several occasions.

But the whole thing bothers me a lot. How common is this kind of talk? Should it be taken seriously? If it should, what would we do about it? I hesitate to report anyone to the authorities; spying on my neighbors is so - so - ugh!



I'm going to do some research to find out if applying for citizenship is a private matter, or if I can find out if/when he's applied. I have no problem writing a letter to immigration (?) and letting them know of my concerns before he becomes an American. Let them investigate it, and make the appropriate decision.

[Der Wulf]

A Karenina wrote:

I've known him for over 6 years. Oh geeezzz, why am I being so mysterious? I've dated him for the past 6 years. I broke up with him last Sunday after a very ugly fight about how rotten we are for stealing Indian lands, and the religious aspects of gay marriage. I did not throw him out because of his views. He was very loud, very mean, and I just won't be treated that way.



I did tell him to move elsewhere if he was so unhappy, and he informed me that I was speaking like a true f***ed up redneck. My "type" deserves everything it's gonna get...and so on.



Over the past year, his anger level has risen to that brutal level of hatred mentioned here, and in other threads. CHANGE YOUR LOCKS, he does'nt respect you, does'nt love you. Don't worry about the country, get yourself some means of security, like a friend visiting you etc. I'm dead serious here, no jokes.



His problem is not patriotism, or lack there of, this is a bitter, disallusioned, immature, and unstable person. The keys are his increasing anger, and irrational outbursts. His disrespect for you and authority, If you think back carefully, and you must, you will find that every time that his behavior was inappropriate, and you let him get by with it, he just came back worse the next time.



If you were my daughter or sister, you'd be out of there already. Read back through the threads about abuse, listen carefully to those who have been there. Hell, PM lady cop and listen to her.



His psychosis may be driven by medical, mental, or financial problems, missed promotion or drugs, does'nt matter. If you want to help him, do it later from a position of safety. Same with reporting to I.N.S.

You've seen enough of my post's to realize that I'm not an alarmist, but this guys symptoms are classic.



We care about you hon, this is urgent.

[BabyRider]

I think you're right on the money, DerWulf. And AK, you of all people should be able to spot a potentially dangerous man. How many times did physical violence begin with verbal abuse? Get as far away from this man as possible, and get you some pepper spray, something. He does sound unbalanced. Worry about YOU, not helping this guy. I know it's easy to say, but do not take this attitude lightly. Be very careful and let us know how things are going, ok? :yh_hugs

[A Karenina]

Der Wulf...I am really bad at expressing my deeper emotions. I'd like to tell you how much your concern means to me, and that you respect me enough to give me your honest thoughts.



In truth, at one point I thought he would hit me. I was looking at the floor, glanced up, and saw his fists were clenched. A lifetime of thought went through me. I came from a violent marriage, I lost everything that mattered to me getting out of it. I did not survive that just to repeat it.



And so, I slowly looked at him, letting the thoughts form in my head ~ If you hit me, I will bring you down. I will have you deported. I will have you hunted down and beaten. I will bring more misery on you than you understand.



I said nothing...yet my expression must've revealed all. He stared at me, his mouth open, and then he turned and left.



I am not underestimating the truth of your post. I feel bad for having scared you. I'm sorry.



I live in a house converted into apartments. We can all hear each other, and we all watch out for one another. My neighbors know he is not allowed in our home.

He does not have the keys to this place. When I moved here last summer, I didn't want to give him a key, uncomfortable even then, I guess.

I work in a secured building with guards.

My friends all know what happened, and they check on me as well.



I think I've covered all of my bases, but any additional suggestions would be welcomed.



Strange, isn't it? We've dated for so long, yet we never spent a lot of time together. Work and school keeps me hopping. He played a nice act for a long time, but it's over now. And I can't tell you how good that feels.



Edited to add: BabyR, you're right. I should've seen it a long time ago. I didn't want to, of course. Part-time suited me fine. He'd get very angry about politics, he didn't direct that anger towards me until this past Sunday. When he did, that was it. No worries there.



Thanks to all. I'm embarrassed but deeply touched.

[BabyRider]

A Karenina wrote: I think I've covered all of my bases, but any additional suggestions would be welcomed.

PEPPER SPRAY!!!!

And never forget: BabyRider is a hunter. Has guns. Bows. Nunchucks. Various terrifying instruments of death....And a very short temper with stupid violent men.



:yh_bigsmi

[A Karenina]

BR, you are so funny!

I'm feeling incredibly stupid about now. So, you'll all have to put up with my babbling excuses.

I believe he spent time with me to escape his own realities. That was fine by me because I did the same thing, to a degree. I could pretend I had a relationship while not really having one. All the benefits, none of the work.

Things were fine, not glorious or awful. Just easy (boring, meaningless). But over the past year, he started behaving very differently. I don't know why, I don't care why. While I was a positive escape for the first years, I was becoming an emotional punching bag over the last year...but I didn't recognize it until this past week.

I guess I'm trying to assure myself I'm not a complete fool. ha! Good luck with that one, AK. (ironic grin).

I'd like to assure all of you as well.

[BabyRider]

Stupid??? Why stupid? You sound like you're being real honest with yourself about what this relationship meant, and that it's unhealthy for you, and you're putting a stop to all the nonsense. Boring and meaningless may have been what you were comfortable with. Til it became something else. Being an emotional punching bag is not boring. Depressing, destuctive, etc., but definitely not boring. Now that you've recognized it and changed it, well, I'd say that's pretty darn intelligent. Since you got rid of the source of the emotional abuse, do you intend to beat yourself up all by yourself? (That was a joke...) :yh_neutra

[Der Wulf]

A Karenina wrote: BR, you are so funny!



I'm feeling incredibly stupid about now. So, you'll all have to put up with my babbling excuses.


Stupid acts do not necessarily equate to stupid people, survivers get to laugh about their stupidity in their old age, I'm set to about age 102.



Kit's right, he'll be back, and probably contrite, DON'T EVEN LISTEN :yh_silent :yh_flower

[Der Wulf]

Kat wrote: Der Wulf,

Please accept my apologies for the "Thump' post I made to you yesterday evening. While it was made in jest, you would not know that. Again, I am sorry if I have hurt your feelings or left you with a bad feeling.

Kat
I thought it was funny, I have a weird, warped, and often gallows sense of humor, if I'm ever truely offended, I don't suffer in silence, but put on my sharpened spring steel dentures. I consider a good "bash" a complement.

[gmc]

Get away from him. You will have seen some fairly heated debates here about politics but none of that translates in to hatred of america or violence in any form.

If he stalks you I suggest you get the police involved

posted by der wulf

His problem is not patriotism, or lack there of, this is a bitter, disallusioned, immature, and unstable person. The keys are his increasing anger, and irrational outbursts. His disrespect for you and authority, If you think back carefully, and you must, you will find that every time that his behavior was inappropriate, and you let him get by with it, he just came back worse the next time.


Good grief I agree with him :wah:

posted by capn buzzard

Hmmm who would you put in Tony B's place?

Cardboard cutout springs to mind

[A Karenina]

When you're right, you're right. I won't beat up on myself, and I won't think a stupid decision is a reflection on my own intelligence. I think I beat ya, though, Der Wulf...surely I am set until age 120? LOL

I'll call the property management company today about having my locks changed, as many of you have wisely suggested. Also, I agree he will be back eventually. I don't feel remotely tempted to listen to anything he might say.

What I do feel - finally! - is excited about life. Lots of things are going well, and makes me feel vey blessed.

:-6

[Der Wulf]

Kat wrote: Ahh, Wonderful! I to have a VERY dry humor, can find the most inappropriate things to poke fun at, some have even said desert dry. :p
It might be a good idea to hang on to that er I'm working on an analysis of female bath habits. :sneaky:

[Der Wulf]

gmc wrote:



posted by der wulf



Good grief I agree with him :wah:




DIAL 911, SEND AN AMBULANCE, ALERT INTENSIVE CARE



obviously, gmc is critically ill, or maybe he just forgot his fiber



..............................:-2