Disturbing. To say the least.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:24 am

I've read a couple of accounts of this including one that states the adult man was holding the child down as the acts were being performed by the teenagers. I don't understand how this stuff happens. It makes it sound like the child was willing and that may be so but I have a hard time seeing that myself. I don't know and have never known any 11 year olds who would choose to do these things. I think coercion might have done it and the adult man was most likely a huge factor- that's a parent figure there, maybe the girl was too intimidated to refuse. Whatever the whole mess is beyond ill and I'll probably get flamed for this but I doubt the mental capacity of that girl, age 11 or not.

woppy71 · Post by **woppy71** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:58 am

Speechless. Angry and speechless.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:02 am

RedGlitter wrote: I've read a couple of accounts of this including one that states the adult man was holding the child down as the acts were being performed by the teenagers. I don't understand how this stuff happens. It makes it sound like the child was willing and that may be so but I have a hard time seeing that myself. I don't know and have never known any 11 year olds who would choose to do these things. I think coercion might have done it and the adult man was most likely a huge factor- that's a parent figure there, maybe the girl was too intimidated to refuse. Whatever the whole mess is beyond ill and I'll probably get flamed for this but I doubt the mental capacity of that girl, age 11 or not.Her mental capacity is irrelevant, as is the question of her level of willingness. She's a child. The teens who orchestrated it should pay, as should their parents, and the old guy should fry.

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:40 am

She'll be a wonderful mom, won't she? (I say this to those of you who object to terminating pregnancy in a minor.)

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:53 am

Yes she's a kid and what happened was unacceptable and the creeps should be punished severely. Understand I am not placing blame on the girl. I'm saying that I question her mental state. Gullibility, impressionability, eagerness to please aside, most 11 year old girls I am aware of would have put up some kind of fight. But we don't know if she did or didn't. It's hard enough for me to imagine a young girl in a sex abuse situation with one abuser. I find it very hard to swallow an incident where a kid "wants" to perform these acts on multiple people. If she did want to, I think there was something very wrong with her mind and I'm not talking basic gullibility. But regardless, those abusers need to be imprisoned and is it wrong of me to especially want the 40 year old to be tied to a tree and set on fire? I mean the teenagers were just as wrong and I could not excuse or forgive them but that grown man needs to be shot. Pardon my bluntness.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:03 pm

Lulu2 wrote: She'll be a wonderful mom, won't she? (I say this to those of you who object to terminating pregnancy in a minor.)Oooooo! Here's a great example! If the parents want to abort, but she wants to have the baby, who should get their way? (sorry for the hijack. We can take this to a new thread if we need to.)

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:04 pm

RedGlitter wrote: Yes she's a kid and what happened was unacceptable and the creeps should be punished severely. Understand I am not placing blame on the girl. I'm saying that I question her mental state. Gullibility, impressionability, eagerness to please aside, most 11 year old girls I am aware of would have put up some kind of fight. But we don't know if she did or didn't. It's hard enough for me to imagine a young girl in a sex abuse situation with one abuser. I find it very hard to swallow an incident where a kid "wants" to perform these acts on multiple people. If she did want to, I think there was something very wrong with her mind and I'm not talking basic gullibility. But regardless, those abusers need to be imprisoned and is it wrong of me to especially want the 40 year old to be tied to a tree and set on fire? I mean the teenagers were just as wrong and I could not excuse or forgive them but that grown man needs to be shot. Pardon my bluntness. :mad:Shoot 'im after the tree finishes burning.

Then take his bones and beat the 11-year-old's parents with one.

Adam Zapple · Post by **Adam Zapple** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:40 am

Scrat wrote: I wonder just how this came to pass. What kind of society allows things like this to happen? I suspect that this was some kind of a gang related event that involved not only the girl and the man but all present.

Considering the extent of gangs in the cities of this country you have to ask just what kind of children is this society producing.

I had the same thought, Scrat. Sounds like an initiation of some kind, probably gang related.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:59 am

Whenever I read this sort of thing, I feel sick to the pit of my stomach.

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:19 am

Took the words right out of my mouth..

She is an 11 year old girl, no match physically for an adult male holding her down, or for that matter anyone holding her down. I'm sure she kicked and screamed till her voice was gone. This story makes me ill, what a barbaric act, what a tragic story. This 11 year old will never be the same again.:-1 :-1

[QUOTE]Shoot 'im after the tree finishes burning.

Then take his bones and beat the 11-year-old's parents with one[/QUOTE]

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:44 am

Children who've been sexually molested will often learn to participate, to some level, for several possible reasons. ONE of them is that it gains favor with the adults. ANOTHER might be that it allows her to escape mistreatment. A THIRD, sadly, is that part of it feels good and she's had no idea that it's not supposed to be the way it is.

Let's not be too quick to judge this child because it all comes back to the adults in her life.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:55 am

Lulu2 wrote: Children who've been sexually molested will often learn to participate, to some level, for several possible reasons. ONE of them is that it gains favor with the adults. ANOTHER might be that it allows her to escape mistreatment. A THIRD, sadly, is that part of it feels good and she's had no idea that it's not supposed to be the way it is.

Let's not be too quick to judge this child because it all comes back to the adults in her life.AMEN!! which is why I said that her parents deserve a beating.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:36 pm

Scrat wrote: How are we going to punish the adults in these kids lives?

Why not punish adults for their childrens transgressions? It sounds like a good idea to me. They are responsible for them you would think.

Taking the idea out of the context of this specific case, I don't know Scrat. There are a lot of good parents who have crappy kids. Should we punish them automatically? I think we need to punish the kids as well. They have free will. I don't know about the parents of these creeps in the story. I wonder what kind of people they are. What you said about gangs is true. Many gangs have as part of their "initiation rites" sexual activity that must be performed on demand. But we don't know any more about this girl or the event so It's hard to say. The abuse possibility is certainly true, the girl acting out from a history of abuse. I suppose she could also be one of those rare new breed 11 year olds that are sexually active and liking it too although I shudder at the thought of her being a mini-porn star at that age. I keep thinking about that 40 year old man and getting mad all over again.

It's just "icky!!" I look forward to some new reports.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:42 pm

RedGlitter wrote: [...] I suppose she could also be one of those rare new breed 11 year olds that are sexually active and liking it too although I shudder at the thought of her being a mini-porn star at that age. [...]Your post reads as if that would make it okay, so long as she was a willing participant.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:06 pm

Accountable wrote: Your post reads as if that would make it okay, so long as she was a willing participant.

Oh no, not even close. Okay let me say that again. I would prefer she were a willing particpant rather than that she have been forced. That much is true. That someone may have forced themselves on a child sickens me. (Or on an adult for that matter, force is sickening either way) What I meant was that there *are* some very worldly 11 year olds who engage in some very adult behavior, wrong as it may be. I am thinking of the gang issue where young girls have to have sex with multiple guys in order to be accepted. And I'm also thinking of young girls who are dysfunctional for whatever reason and are having sex with just anyone because they think they have nothing better to do or that it's expected of them. Those girls exist, sadly. No,I don't think this is okay if she were a willing particpant, but I would rather hope she *was* willing and wanted to actually do these things. Gross as that may be, I would prefer that over her having been a rape victim. And I know it's always considered rape when a child is involved, but I mean I hope she wasn't actually held down and forced.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:18 pm

RedGlitter wrote: Oh no, not even close. Okay let me say that again. I would prefer she were a willing particpant rather than that she have been forced. That much is true. That someone may have forced themseoves on a child sickens me. (Or on an adult for that matter, force is sickening either way) What I meant was that there *are* some very worldly 11 year olds who engage in some very adult behavior, wrong as it may be. I am thinking of the gang issue where young girls have to have sex with multiple guys in order to be accepted. And I'm also thinking of young girls who are dysfunctional for whatever reason and are having sex with just anyone because they think they have nothing better to do or that it's expected of them. Those girls exist, sadly. No,I don't think it this is okay if she were a willing particpant, but I would rather hope she *was* willing and wanted to actually do these things. Gross as that may be, I would prefer that over her having been a rape victim. And I know it's always considered rape when a child is involved, but I mean I hope she wasn't actually held down and forced. :(That's understandable. Thanks for the clarification.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:36 pm

You're welcome.

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:19 pm

In some ways, this case makes me think of the Austrian girl who was held for 8 years in a basement dungeon. She's said she doesn't want to discuss whether or not the kidnapper had sex with her....and I understand that. She's undoubtedly ashamed, sickened and feels guilty for possibly having enjoyed at least some part of it.

My local paper had an article which said one of the ways he kept her in thrall was by telling her he'd kill himself if she ever escapeed. Think of the burden THAT puts on a child!

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:13 pm

At first I was thinking "why would the girl care if her captor/rapist kills himself?" But then I thought about that phenomenon where captives often become, well, not "fond" of their captors but somehow grateful to them. "Thank you for beating me with the rubber hose, I am garbage and I deserve it" type of mentality. Plus I assume he was her sole source of food and water and her mind may have been so gone that she feared losing these things.

Do you recall back in the 70s or early 80s the woman who was kidnapped and kept in a box under her captor's bed and used for sex for years?

What goes wrong with human beings that they can do these horrible things to another??