Opinion without Judgement

rainbowsmiles · Post by **rainbowsmiles** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:37 pm

I had no idea where to post this. I was going to post it under general chit chat but then thought people wouldn't appreciate that. I hope it is ok to stick it here or maybe it can be moved :-3

Here is my question:

How can we have an opinion without judgement? I use to think it was possible but it seems it is not. Unless I'm just not clear on the definition of judgement and opinion. But one can't exist without the other, right?

In the dictionary it lists this description of opinion:

1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

For judgement:

1. an act or instance of judging.

2. the ability to judge, make a decision, or form an opinion objectively, authoritatively, and wisely, esp. in matters affecting action; good sense; discretion.

So when religious leaders say "do not judge" how do we NOT do this?

We all have opinions on how best to live our own lives. We all have an opinion on what we BELIEVE are the RIGHTS and WRONGS in society. I understand that. But I was told recently by a religious leader that I need to stop judging others when I was expressing to him some of my personal beliefs.

What am I missing here?

I also see it on the internet. When I express a belief to someone on a forum sometimes they immediately jump to conclusions and think I'm judging them, but that isn't what I'm doing. At least not intentionally. For example: I don't believe in promiscuity. I believe in strong monogamous relationships. I would never behave in a promiscuous fashion myself and when I have children I will raise them to the best of my ability not to be promiscuous BUT I don't think that means I'm judging the promiscuous neighbor across the street (btw, she isn't really promiscuous, I'm just using it as an example). If the neighbor sleeps around, that is her business and it doesn't mean I don't like her. I just don't agree with the behavior. Why can't some people see the difference?

rainbowsmiles · Post by **rainbowsmiles** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:42 pm

Clipper;510372 wrote: Human nature and the ability of folks to "assume"......

My grandfather use to say: never ASSUME anything, it just makes an ASS out of U M E. :wah:

^ I just had to say that... the word ASSUME always reminds me of that.

911 · Post by **911** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:44 pm

Most of the time it is how the statement is put to paper. If, for instance, you say, Mongomy is the only clear path in human relationships, you're asking for it.

You have to be clear and state that regardless of what everyone else wants to do, this or that is best for me and my life. Simple.

Don't be surprised if there is a discussion. You can't make a statement and not expect others to give you their opinions also. It's not judgement, it's their opinions.

rainbowsmiles · Post by **rainbowsmiles** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:53 pm

911;510379 wrote: Most of the time it is how the statement is put to paper. If, for instance, you say, Mongomy is the only clear path in human relationships, you're asking for it.

You have to be clear and state that regardless of what everyone else wants to do, this or that is best for me and my life. Simple.

Don't be surprised if there is a discussion. You can't make a statement and not expect others to give you their opinions also. It's not judgement, it's their opinions.

Ok, I see your point. But isn't the first line of what you said just an opinion? A belief for the individual speaking those words? Why is it that a statement like that would bring about a defense by others who are assuming its a judgement, when in fact it is just an opinion help by one person that leads them to live their life in a specific way. It doesn't mean that the person holding the opinion thinks the person who doesn't believe in monogamy is evil or is to be avoided.

Couldn't someone who disagrees with that statement just respond with "I don't agree. I think having multiple relationships is a great experience in life and I enjoy having multiple partners"

END OF DISCUSSION.

But usually it doesn't go that way. The person responding immediately assumes its a judgement and acts defensively. Why is that?

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:15 pm

Hamster;510416 wrote: It is in our genetic make up to judge people and form an impression and opinion of them. Way back in our history we HAD to decide "friend or foe" in about 3 seconds...should we run or fight or s**g this person?? (excuse the crudity)

So we are left with this habit even now..to evaluate immediately and form an opinion as soon as possible to aid our survival. Shame most of us don't even know we are doing it!
You forgot.

Or Pm them endlessly.

WonderWendy3 · Post by **WonderWendy3** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:34 pm

Or, judge not lest he be judged by the same measurement that he first judged.

rainbowsmiles · Post by **rainbowsmiles** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:38 pm

Pinky;510422 wrote: I think we can form an opinion, often based on our own upbringing and experiences, but realistically how many of us put ourselves in the shoes of the person or thing we're judging?

Maybe I have a somewhat unusual viewpoint on this, but I don't think anyone should judge anyone else, or at least try not to. No-one ever knows what circustances we'll end up in. We can think something is wrong for us, but in my opinion, we shouldn't assume that what is wrong for us may not be right for someone else. We all walk different paths and have choices to make. That leads to varied experiences and ultimately choices and also opinions.

It's wonderful to hear these, but when it gets to the point where one person insists that theirs is the only correct one and judges others by it, problems inevitably occur.

Very well put Pinky.

I was just thinking about this as I ran to the store. Its true, what might be wrong for one person might be just fine for another. Part of what I view as the problem is our need as people to convince everyone to see the world the way we do. I just don't know why people feel that need. I like sharing my opinion and I don't care if others view the world the way I do but I see that SO MANY people have the need to sway others to view things the way do and get extremely frustrated with the other person if they can't accomplish that task.

Hampster,

Your right, I agree that I think its a shame that we don't even realize what we are doing. I guess its also like clipper said... "assuming" - I know I've done it. And I have made an ass out of myself in the process.

I've tried to choose my words carefully in many conversations (internet and off internet) just to avoid making people feel like I'm judging them but for some reason it seems to be impossible. People tend to get extremely defensive when there is an unshared opinion.

jennyswan · Post by **jennyswan** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:32 pm

I would think that it is probably impossible to have an opinion without judgement but what I think important to remember is 'that a thought is only a thought until you act on it, then it becomes an action' so what I'm trying to say is that it's OK to have an opinion. Maybe it's the acting on it that sometimes makes it dangerous.

JacksDad · Post by **JacksDad** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:40 pm

But I was told recently by a religious leader that I need to stop judging others when I was expressing to him some of my personal beliefs.

To go without judgement is a difficult thing to learn but it still can be done. With practice. Seems to me that person was judging you!

Try this instead. It's much more down to earth with the same outcome.

"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion" - H.H. XIV Dalai Lama

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:36 pm

WonderWendy3;510440 wrote: Or, judge not lest he be judged by the same measurement that he first judged.
I judge and make no apologies. I think I am fair in my judgments (of course I would, wouldn't I?). I ask to be judged by my measurement. I would demand it, if I could, for if I can't live up to the standard I expect in others, I need to make some adjustments.

JacksDad · Post by **JacksDad** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:07 pm

Accountable;510652 wrote: I judge and make no apologies. I think I am fair in my judgments (of course I would, wouldn't I?). I ask to be judged by my measurement. I would demand it, if I could, for if I can't live up to the standard I expect in others, I need to make some adjustments.

Expectations are the issue there.

I have no intent on living up to others expectations.

Expectations, judgements, opinions..............

Here comes a thread of semantics. :driving:

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:10 pm

JacksDad;510703 wrote: Expectations are the issue there.

I have no intent on living up to others expectations.

Expectations, judgements, opinions..............

Here comes a thread of semantics. :driving:
Yup. I've been chastised more than once for being judgmental. Imagine that - being judged as too judgmental. :rolleyes:

rainbowsmiles · Post by **rainbowsmiles** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:27 pm

JacksDad;510703 wrote: Expectations are the issue there.

I have no intent on living up to others expectations.

Expectations, judgements, opinions..............

Here comes a thread of semantics. :driving:

I agree, I don't feel the need to live up to any one elses expectations. For me, the part about judgement is that I would be saying I'm right and everyone else who isn't like me is wrong and I just can't be that way. Everyone is right but FOR THEMSELVES. Its like Pinky said, what is right for one may not be right for another - it all depends on life experience and current situation I believe.

for if I can't live up to the standard I expect in others, I need to make some adjustments.

^ But I also understand accountables point here. At least I think I do. I've always had high expectations of myself, therefore, expect a lot from others. I don't express it openly but I do expect a lot. But again, those expectations are all based on my own beliefs and I keep them in check because I know what is right for me is not right for everyone.

Ok, now I'm babbling

Opinion and judgement are separate. That is my conclusion thus far. To have an opinion is just deciding what is best for oneself. To judge is to point figuratively or literally at someone else and say they are WRONG because they don't think like me. The oxford dictionary needs to redefine those terms :wah:

There is certainly a fine line between judgement and opinion though. I definitely think an individual has to remain very mindful in their speaking to avoid judgement because it can happen without intention. Of course, its all dependent on interpretation.

^ More babbling :-2

JacksDad · Post by **JacksDad** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:33 pm

No babbling at all. You made perfect sense to me.

Personally, I judge you sane.

rainbowsmiles · Post by **rainbowsmiles** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:34 pm

Accountable;510706 wrote: Yup. I've been chastised more than once for being judgmental. Imagine that - being judged as too judgmental. :rolleyes:

Isn't that so typical though.

I think a deeper question is why judgement exists at all.

I know people will yell at me probably for voicing my opinion on this but I believe 2 things are possible - we judge others when we aren't secure in our own beliefs/opinions. Why else would we care what others are doing or saying if we were secure in our own ways?

Or is it that we hear an opinion that we believe is absolutely absurd and we just have to express our feelings about it? I know I've done that. I just can't get my mind around someone's opinion on something and if I feel I'm not getting an educated reply when I ask questions I get snarky. Not something I'm proud of, but yes it happens. Then I'm judging, right? :-5

rainbowsmiles · Post by **rainbowsmiles** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:38 pm

JacksDad;510742 wrote: No babbling at all. You made perfect sense to me.

Personally, I judge you sane.

Thank you

I'm happy that someone understands my babble. I guess I'm just trying to figure out this whole opinion/judgement thing and I thought this forum was the best place to do it because of the various opinions and because everyone here has such great insight

JacksDad · Post by **JacksDad** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:06 pm

rainbowsmiles;510744 wrote: Isn't that so typical though.

I think a deeper question is why judgement exists at all.

I know people will yell at me probably for voicing my opinion on this but I believe 2 things are possible - we judge others when we aren't secure in our own beliefs/opinions. Why else would we care what others are doing or saying if we were secure in our own ways?

Or is it that we hear an opinion that we believe is absolutely absurd and we just have to express our feelings about it? I know I've done that. I just can't get my mind around someone's opinion on something and if I feel I'm not getting an educated reply when I ask questions I get snarky. Not something I'm proud of, but yes it happens. Then I'm judging, right? :-5

Start from the top and read the whole thread. You are answering your own questions. I've learned that's the best way to find answers to your self's concerns. Although Hamster did address judgements existence in Humans.

As far as when we hear an absurd opinion, yea, you are judging.

Why the snarky response? (Unless you do it for your own entertainment.

)

Think about compassion. It's not the others fault they won't accept what you do. (education?)

:D

rainbowsmiles · Post by **rainbowsmiles** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:14 pm

Start from the top and read the whole thread. You are answering your own questions. I've learned that's the best way to find answers to your self's concerns.

^Thanks Jacksdad, I'm seeing it now. I think I've been talking about this all day on here and to others around me and its all starting to make sense.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:19 pm

Rainbow, I think it's PC vs. Common Sense. Make a statement of what you think about what someone is doing and twenty people will kneejerk and tell you not to be judgemental.

Here's my take: EVERYONE judges. EVERYONE. I know people judge me and I judge them. If someone's a duck, you have a right to think they're a duck even if they want you to see them as a flamingo. Err..does that make sense?

I think all this business about "don't judge people!" is stupid. I do understand that religion often tells us not to judge but I don't cotton to that anyway.

I like people with opinions. And I think there is a difference between judging and criticizing.

:)

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:31 pm

WonderWendy3;510440 wrote: Or, judge not lest he be judged by the same measurement that he first judged.
Or, judge not lest he be judged by the same measurement that he first judged for even the least judgement made by the first judge is measured.

rainbowsmiles · Post by **rainbowsmiles** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:35 pm

RedGlitter;510794 wrote: Rainbow, I think it's PC vs. Common Sense. Make a statement of what you think about what someone is doing and twenty people will kneejerk and tell you not to be judgemental.

Here's my take: EVERYONE judges. EVERYONE. I know people judge me and I judge them. If someone's a duck, you have a right to think they're a duck even if they want you to see them as a flamingo. Err..does that make sense?

I think all this business about "don't judge people!" is stupid. I do understand that religion often tells us not to judge but I don't cotton to that anyway.

I like people with opinions. And I think there is a difference between judging and criticizing.

^ The dictionary agrees with you. They define opinion the same as judgement but exclude criticizing.

I like people with opinions too. I always felt the world would be very boring if we all had the same mind-set. I guess I just wish we could all talk to one another, share our opinions, and walk away happy with possibly a little more wisdom instead of getting upset with one another. :-3 And your DUCK/FLAMINGO analogy makes absolute sense to me. Thank you for sharing your opinion with me on this topic

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:30 am

Accountable;510652 wrote: I judge and make no apologies. I think I am fair in my judgments (of course I would, wouldn't I?). I ask to be judged by my measurement. I would demand it, if I could, for if I can't live up to the standard I expect in others, I need to make some adjustments.

The main question is, how do you act on your judgement?

If you decide that someone is wrong (they smoke for example and you judge that smoking is wrong) how does that affect your dealings with that person?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:46 pm

Bryn Mawr;511382 wrote: The main question is, how do you act on your judgement?

If you decide that someone is wrong (they smoke for example and you judge that smoking is wrong) how does that affect your dealings with that person?
I've had disagreements here with folks I judged (man, that reads harsh). Naturally, I'm the wrong person to estimate if I crossed any lines unnecessarily, except for the really obvious ones I apologized for. The people who were on the receiving end might not be unbiased either. The answer to your question will best come from the judgment of a disinterested person.

How do you judge my behavior?

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:29 pm

To me it's about conviction. If someone seriously and/or passionately believes they are right then I take little offense. If they are confounding the facts and refusing to look at the topic/situation reasonably then I argue back with just as much passion.

Judgment for the sole purpose of feeding ego is, despite some people thinking that is what I do, just plain wrong.

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:10 pm

WonderWendy3 wrote: Or, judge not lest he be judged by the same measurement that he first judged.
Glaswegian;510806 wrote: Or, judge not lest he be judged by the same measurement that he first judged for even the least judgement made by the first judge is measured.
Or, measure not the first judgement made by the least judge for he that hath measured least shall be judged first.

guppy · Post by **guppy** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:22 pm

i always try to keep my judgement for what i think is right or wrong just for me.....for example. i am of the opinion that drinking alchohol is not something i should take a chance on...too many alchoholics in my family on both sides....

the only time i really become judgemental is if what you do or dont do invades my boundries and then...... "houston, we have a problem...."

otherwise i love a good intellectual debate or disucussion on what peoplle think.....or how they feel about a subject....i like to hear other opinions and insights.....for me, it is sharing knowlege, not about who is right and who is wrong......that hardly ever crosses my mind.....

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:34 am

Accountable;511967 wrote: I've had disagreements here with folks I judged (man, that reads harsh). Naturally, I'm the wrong person to estimate if I crossed any lines unnecessarily, except for the really obvious ones I apologized for. The people who were on the receiving end might not be unbiased either. The answer to your question will best come from the judgment of a disinterested person. How do you judge my behavior?

Usually perfectly acceptable with the occasional lapse - same as most of us.

but then, who's unbiassed?

As to my opinion of you ......

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:34 am

Bryn Mawr;512180 wrote: As to my opinion of you ......

:eek: ..... :-3

Glaswegian · Post by **Glaswegian** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:10 pm

WonderWendy3 wrote: Or, judge not lest he be judged by the same measurement that he first judged.
Glaswegian wrote: Or, judge not lest he be judged by the same measurement that he first judged for even the least judgement made by the first judge is measured.
Glaswegian;512169 wrote: Or, measure not the first judgement made by the least judge for he that hath measured least shall be judged first.
Or, measure not the least judgement made by the first judge for he that hath judged first among the judges shall be measured least.

Aaaargh! (I must apologise to you, WonderWendy, for all of this. It's just that I watched Monty Python's masterpiece The Life Of Brian recently - and I'm still feeling the effects.)

ShawnG · Post by **ShawnG** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:14 pm

Aaaargh! (I must apologise to you, WonderWendy, for all of this. It's just that I watched Monty Python's masterpiece The Life Of Brian recently - and I'm still feeling the effects.)

I just wish the Judean People's Front and the People's Front of Judea had gotten their act sorted (and incorporated the Popular Front of Judea as well... splinter!)

Post by **spot** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:50 pm

In my opinion, while "opinion" certainly can extend toward the sense of "judgement" the dictionary goes on to say:More generally: what or how one thinks about something. Esp. in in my opinion: according to my thinking; as it seems to me. a matter of opinion: a matter about which each may have his or her own opinion; a disputable point.That's the sense you get from Jane Austen, for example, in Mansfield Park: "To see such an undersized, little, mean-looking man, set up for a fine actor, is very ridiculous in my opinion", or in Uncle Tom's Cabin: "Well, the position may be a matter of opinion".

Judgement, on the other hand, isn't a matter between equals:to pass judgement upon, to judge, criticize (with an assumption of superiority). The pronouncing of a deliberate opinion upon a person or thing, or the opinion pronounced; criticism; censure.Each word blurs into the other at their extremes but they have their own ground that the other can't trespass into.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:03 pm

spot:-6

I am in complete agreement with that.

Shalom

Ted:-6

clearmind69 · Post by **clearmind69** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:32 am

I guess judgement or opinion is all based on ones belief to life. What we regard right or wrong. Everyone is different and so too the opinions.

Some judgements are harsh and unfounded and often based on a type of illusion someone comes to. Like saying, all asians are muslim. Ive come across this mindset.

People will hold dear to their conclusions and often form opinions which inturn become a concrete judgement.

Often harsh and off target.

:-6 :-6 :-6 :-6

Marie5656 · Post by **Marie5656** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:38 am

I think this is a tough one. I think human nature dictates that it is "OK" to judge. Maybe not right..but OK. Especially if the person or group we are judging are not those who share our belief systems or values.

We judge people of a different religion.....who are a different color or have a different sexual orientation. Whatever.

"WE" see ourselves as the one who is right. Not all of us..but many do.