The Virgin Mary Visions

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:06 am

Early in 1988, Cardinal Sin was blaming visions of the Virgin Mary on hunger, saying 'When you are hungry you see visions, so my advice is to eat. When you are not hungry you will not see visions'.

This assertion followed claims that the Blessed Virgin Mary had appeared to crowds in Manila, Philippines. If he had been referring to spiritual rather than physical hunger, the Cardinal's comment might have made more sense.

We must charitably conclude that he was not aware that thousands of people have claimed to have seen visions of the Virgin Mary, of whom only a small proportion are likely to have been hungry at the time. The majority of the witnesses to the visions were Catholics.However, it should not be thought that the Catholic authorities somehow engineer these apparitions, or at least encourage them, in order to increase the devotion of their flock, on the contrary, the Catholic Church is very loth to endorse apparitions, and miracles and cures that follow, and, like Cardinal Sin, attempts to dissuade believers from taking and interest in such events. So these happenings are outside the control of the official Church, and the believers who flock to these places where visions are seen are not doing so with the Church approval.

Whatever the Church thinks about apparitions, they have continued to appear regularly over the decades.The visionary figure is usually the Blessed Virgin Mary in one of her many guises, sometimes alone, sometimes with the infant Jesus, and/or angels and saints. She appears in a wide variety of costumes, details of which are usually minutely remembered by the witnesses.

Witnesses are often children or teenagers, though adults may also witness later visions. She often has messages, sometimes secret, which she tells to chosen recipients. She sometimes provides signs to prove her presence to the faithfull, especially in those cases where only a few chosen witnesses can actually see her.

There is a school of thought which believes all such events to be either hallucinatory or illusionary, and that is 'the loss of loved ones or repressed sexual feelings' which bring about visions of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Whether Catholics are indeed hungrier, more grief-stricken or more starved of sex than other mortals is doubtful.

There are many other well-attested inexplicable phenomena associated with religion and mysticism, such as stigmata, levitation, bodily elongation, the odour of sanctity, prolonged fasting and so on.

Most of these visions have been seen in Europe, the Uniited States and the Far East by Catholics, but also by Muslims too.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:05 pm

Capt :-6

Another example of the churches apparent need to exercise total and complete control.

I once challenged an RC Bishop on the issue of the Eucharist. Needless to say he responded with the most feeble answer I have ever been exposed to. Typical, I think. Once again the Church must remain in complete control. An RC theologian told me that the church must not be exposed to any controvery whatsoever. Thus Cardinal Law ships pedophiles all over North America including Canada.

They can't hide the truth forever. It will come out eventually.

As far as the Eucharist is concerned I have no desire to attend at the table of Rome. I will however, attend at the Lord's table since it is He that has invited me. I was once told in no uncertain terms that I was not welcome at the Roman table and that I should stay away. That is not what Galation's says but that is what the church says. I guess the Roman Church puts the magisterium above the Bible and God.

It's called control, control, control even if you have to mislead.

Shalom

Ted :-6

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:23 pm

Interesting!!! I would think that if there was really something to visions, stigmatta etc., that atheists would witness these occurances as well. I mean, isn't that the folks that really need the message? Why do only believers witness such events?

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:26 am

Lon wrote: Interesting!!! I would think that if there was really something to visions, stigmatta etc., that atheists would witness these occurances as well. I mean, isn't that the folks that really need the message? Why do only believers witness such events?

I know people who have become believers after having visions or witnessing apparent miracles. I think it is erroneous to say that only believers witness these events. OTOH I have watched people witness things then immediately deny what they have seen. It happens all the time, even when we are not talking miracles, it's called denial.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:40 am

The most important question, as yet unanswered, is whether any external, objective intelligence has a hand in this kind of experience, or whether the visions, encounters, or whatever are solely personal, self-induced events. There are certainly some puzzling factors to be considered. Our Lady's liking for trees and springs is noticeable.Would an uneducated peasant child consciously locate his or her vision in such a spot? The most famous series of visions of the Virgin Mary took place at Fatima, Portugal, beginning in the spring of 1916 when an angel appeared to three children tending sheep. There were two further appearances, and then on May 13th, 1917 they say the Blessed Virgin Mary herself, again while they were watching the sheep. Her arrival was heralded by a flash of lightning, and as they hastily drove the sheep down the hill, fearing a storm, they saw a beautiful and dazzling woman standing in the foliage of a small oak tree. Later apparitions again took place at the oak tree.

Springs are even more important. The famous events at Lourdes, France, which began on the 11th February 1858 at massabielle when Bernadette Soubirous saw a vision of a lady in white, resulted in the water of Lourdes being used for healing up to the present day. Our Lady directed Bernadette to a damp patch of earth in the grotto where she appeared, and at that point a spring arose which soon yielded more than eighteen gallons of water daily, beginning the focal point of the Lourdes shine.

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:13 am

capt_buzzard wrote: The most important question, as yet unanswered, is whether any external, objective intelligence has a hand in this kind of experience, or whether the visions, encounters, or whatever are solely personal, self-induced events. There are certainly some puzzling factors to be considered. Our Lady's liking for trees and springs is noticeable.Would an uneducated peasant child consciously locate his or her vision in such a spot? The most famous series of visions of the Virgin Mary took place at Fatima, Portugal, beginning in the spring of 1916 when an angel appeared to three children tending sheep. There were two further appearances, and then on May 13th, 1917 they say the Blessed Virgin Mary herself, again while they were watching the sheep. Her arrival was heralded by a flash of lightning, and as they hastily drove the sheep down the hill, fearing a storm, they saw a beautiful and dazzling woman standing in the foliage of a small oak tree. Later apparitions again took place at the oak tree.

Springs are even more important. The famous events at Lourdes, France, which began on the 11th February 1858 at massabielle when Bernadette Soubirous saw a vision of a lady in white, resulted in the water of Lourdes being used for healing up to the present day. Our Lady directed Bernadette to a damp patch of earth in the grotto where she appeared, and at that point a spring arose which soon yielded more than eighteen gallons of water daily, beginning the focal point of the Lourdes shine.

This is very interesting. What is the source?

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:57 pm

koan wrote: I know people who have become believers after having visions or witnessing apparent miracles. I think it is erroneous to say that only believers witness these events. OTOH I have watched people witness things then immediately deny what they have seen. It happens all the time, even when we are not talking miracles, it's called denial.
"I think it is erroneous to say that only believers witness these events."

I didn't say that.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:39 pm

koan wrote: This is very interesting. What is the source?Modern Mysteries magazine in Ireland

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:45 pm

Lon wrote: "I think it is erroneous to say that only believers witness these events."

I didn't say that.

Um, actually:

Lon wrote: Why do only believers witness such events?

You did.

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:46 pm

capt_buzzard wrote: Modern Mysteries magazine in Ireland

Thanks. Sounds like a good mag.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:55 pm

koan wrote: Um, actually:

You did.

Aw shucks!! Ya caught me.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:50 am

capt_buzzard wrote: The most important question, as yet unanswered, is whether any external, objective intelligence has a hand in this kind of experience, or whether the visions, encounters, or whatever are solely personal, self-induced events. There are certainly some puzzling factors to be considered. Our Lady's liking for trees and springs is noticeable.Would an uneducated peasant child consciously locate his or her vision in such a spot? The most famous series of visions of the Virgin Mary took place at Fatima, Portugal, beginning in the spring of 1916 when an angel appeared to three children tending sheep. There were two further appearances, and then on May 13th, 1917 they say the Blessed Virgin Mary herself, again while they were watching the sheep. Her arrival was heralded by a flash of lightning, and as they hastily drove the sheep down the hill, fearing a storm, they saw a beautiful and dazzling woman standing in the foliage of a small oak tree. Later apparitions again took place at the oak tree.

Springs are even more important. The famous events at Lourdes, France, which began on the 11th February 1858 at massabielle when Bernadette Soubirous saw a vision of a lady in white, resulted in the water of Lourdes being used for healing up to the present day. Our Lady directed Bernadette to a damp patch of earth in the grotto where she appeared, and at that point a spring arose which soon yielded more than eighteen gallons of water daily, beginning the focal point of the Lourdes shine.

Men have been worshipping the 'queen of heaven' since tamuz! Cybele, isis, etc...visions of this kind arent new. The reason we bake birthday cakes, can be traced back to the cult of Tamuz. (ancient babylonian) Look at the 'green man'. And you of all people wonder at the sacred oak? Your celt ancestors are rolling in their graves! :wah:

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:33 pm

I have to question the use of "external, objective intelligence". If God is a spirit and the "one in whom we live and move and have our being .", it would suggest that God is both with us and transcendent. Can we call God who is beyond time and space, who is "more than" and external, objective intelligence.

I think that perhaps this is the great error of the renaissance; the only acceptance of reality is that it be objective nad external.

I accept the reality of God but I don't believe that s/he is necessarily objectively verifiable.

Shalom

Ted :-3

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:32 am

I have no problem whatsoever. In the form of Jesus Christ. And I personally assume the 'Our Father' to be male.

As for just being spirit. Nope. He's more than that. As for intelligence, He's the ultimate. However, He created others. It's arrogant for man to believe we're alone. We've been told about the powers and beings and intelligence of all those others. Who is to say they cant give us visions as well. I'm talking about the angelic realm which we are unable to view at this time. They have knowledge which far exceeds our own. Lucifer is a great mimic. He has a nasty habit of appearing as an angel of light. Who is to say it's not him, posing as mary?

This thread has alot of possibilities methinks! :yh_bigsmi

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:44 pm

Raven wrote: I have no problem whatsoever. In the form of Jesus Christ. And I personally assume the 'Our Father' to be male.

As for just being spirit. Nope. He's more than that. As for intelligence, He's the ultimate. However, He created others. It's arrogant for man to believe we're alone. We've been told about the powers and beings and intelligence of all those others. Who is to say they cant give us visions as well. I'm talking about the angelic realm which we are unable to view at this time. They have knowledge which far exceeds our own. Lucifer is a great mimic. He has a nasty habit of appearing as an angel of light. Who is to say it's not him, posing as mary?

This thread has alot of possibilities methinks! :yh_bigsmiGood one Raven

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:46 pm

In defining or describing the Divine we as all in the past lack the language to do so. We lack the conceptualization ability as well. Thus we must resort to metaphor. God is simply beyond us and our abilities.

The reference to God as "Father" is a tradition developed in a patriarchal society. There is no reason we cannot refer to God as; mother, sister, brother, confident, companion, friend or whatever other designation one would like to use. God is genderless.

Shalom

Ted :-6

jahamaa · Post by **jahamaa** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:16 pm

Koan, Capt, Rave, Ted you guys are deep, and your making me dizzy.

If you don't mind a simpilistic mind's thoughts, I think some visions are from God, some from hunger, some from over zealous belivers and some from God knows where. Seems to me the trick is to figure out which is which...is which, I guess :-5

jahamaa · Post by **jahamaa** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:22 pm

Ted wrote:

The reference to God as "Father" is a tradition developed in a patriarchal society. There is no reason we cannot refer to God as; mother, sister, brother, confident, companion, friend or whatever other designation one would like to use. God is genderless.

Shalom

Ted :-6

Or it could be that the role of a father as described in the Bible is describtive of God's relationship to us and is indeed the best description.

A possiblity.