A member's comment made me think of this tonight.
Should the "middle class" be restricted to only those persons with widely marketable skills? If you are a high school graduate but never attended college, do you deserve to be ranked lower? Do you deserve to be paid less? Regardless if your work ethic is sound? Is the Middle class reserved only for people who received further education and can do better than work in a Walmart?
Who Deserves to Be Middle Class?
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Who Deserves to Be Middle Class?
You can do anything if you are willing to work hard.
Have you seen this movie:
The Pursuit of Happyness
It is a true story.
Have you seen this movie:
The Pursuit of Happyness
It is a true story.
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Who Deserves to Be Middle Class?
No, I haven't heard of that movie that I can remember.
I'm still thinking about it and it seems to be that a steel mill worker or a mechanic or a truck driver or a waitress for instance all deserve the same things a white collar person has. It's really rankling me because by regarding those types of jobs as somehow "less than," it degrades the people who perform them and those jobs are all necessary and serve others in some fashion.
I should know better than to post when tired...this is probably a half-made point I'll see in the morning.... :rolleyes:
I'm still thinking about it and it seems to be that a steel mill worker or a mechanic or a truck driver or a waitress for instance all deserve the same things a white collar person has. It's really rankling me because by regarding those types of jobs as somehow "less than," it degrades the people who perform them and those jobs are all necessary and serve others in some fashion.
I should know better than to post when tired...this is probably a half-made point I'll see in the morning.... :rolleyes:
Who Deserves to Be Middle Class?
nothing peee's me off like a person who in every other aspect of their lives is totally inadequate yet give them a job title and suddenly they are Hitlers love child grrrr
jobsworths i hate them
jobsworths i hate them
Who Deserves to Be Middle Class?
RedGlitter;662433 wrote: A member's comment made me think of this tonight.
Should the "middle class" be restricted to only those persons with widely marketable skills? If you are a high school graduate but never attended college, do you deserve to be ranked lower? Do you deserve to be paid less? Regardless if your work ethic is sound? Is the Middle class reserved only for people who received further education and can do better than work in a Walmart?
It's a fluid concept that has changes with the times-the guy that fixes your computer is he blue collar like the guy that fixes your car or white collar because it's a more upmarket machine and he's not in overalls? Both work with their hands for a wage. But if the guy working on the car also programmes the computer management chip is he less working class than the one changing the oil? Class was a useful concept to help describe the structure of society and we use the terms still. You can get hung up on the definition arguing about what it is exactly rather than what it means.
Bit surprised actually, I always thought America was supposed to be a classless society where such petty distinctions based on what you do for a living have no place. We still have the odd socialist politician that spouts the rhetoric of class war but it really doesn't strike a chord with most people nowadays. Times have moved on society changes-I come from a working class background and have a "middle class" occupation so what should my values be?
If those who run society are the ones that own the means of production then in a skill based economy i.e. our jobs are defined by the computer skills, sales, technical skills etc. do we not all own the means of production and just allow the highest bidder to buy what we produce. Some people still work in a factory and are cogs in a machine that can be replaced-where does a skilled machinist come in or an IT technician whose skill is at a premium. without them the factory owner doesn't have a business any more but they can produce anywhere.
Rambling post-hope it makes sense.
Should the "middle class" be restricted to only those persons with widely marketable skills? If you are a high school graduate but never attended college, do you deserve to be ranked lower? Do you deserve to be paid less? Regardless if your work ethic is sound? Is the Middle class reserved only for people who received further education and can do better than work in a Walmart?
It's a fluid concept that has changes with the times-the guy that fixes your computer is he blue collar like the guy that fixes your car or white collar because it's a more upmarket machine and he's not in overalls? Both work with their hands for a wage. But if the guy working on the car also programmes the computer management chip is he less working class than the one changing the oil? Class was a useful concept to help describe the structure of society and we use the terms still. You can get hung up on the definition arguing about what it is exactly rather than what it means.
Bit surprised actually, I always thought America was supposed to be a classless society where such petty distinctions based on what you do for a living have no place. We still have the odd socialist politician that spouts the rhetoric of class war but it really doesn't strike a chord with most people nowadays. Times have moved on society changes-I come from a working class background and have a "middle class" occupation so what should my values be?
If those who run society are the ones that own the means of production then in a skill based economy i.e. our jobs are defined by the computer skills, sales, technical skills etc. do we not all own the means of production and just allow the highest bidder to buy what we produce. Some people still work in a factory and are cogs in a machine that can be replaced-where does a skilled machinist come in or an IT technician whose skill is at a premium. without them the factory owner doesn't have a business any more but they can produce anywhere.
Rambling post-hope it makes sense.
Who Deserves to Be Middle Class?
I'm just sitting here thinking - what exactly is middle class?
Whats the amount of money you have to earn to have this label?
When exactly do you stop being working class & become middle class, is it about how much you get paid or what your born into/how you act?
Whats the amount of money you have to earn to have this label?
When exactly do you stop being working class & become middle class, is it about how much you get paid or what your born into/how you act?
Who Deserves to Be Middle Class?
I don't mind who they make middle class as long as they give us nice badges when we do make it, oh and a nice red sash with "middle class" on it if you make upper middle class, and then a peaked cap with "made man/woman" if you get right to the top.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Who Deserves to Be Middle Class?
gmc;662471 wrote: It's a fluid concept that has changes with the times-the guy that fixes your computer is he blue collar like the guy that fixes your car or white collar because it's a more upmarket machine and he's not in overalls? Both work with their hands for a wage. But if the guy working on the car also programmes the computer management chip is he less working class than the one changing the oil? Class was a useful concept to help describe the structure of society and we use the terms still. You can get hung up on the definition arguing about what it is exactly rather than what it means.
Wow. I never even considered any of that. You're right.
Sometimes I think about this stuff and try to deduce it to its lowest denominator...like who's more important: a surgeon or the man who makes his machines and implements or the guy who forges the steel into a scalpel or the man who made the scalpel maker's car so he could get to work? And so on and so on. See what I mean? (I hope- it's late for me) But you opened my eyes a bit with what you've said.
Bit surprised actually, I always thought America was supposed to be a classless society where such petty distinctions based on what you do for a living have no place. We still have the odd socialist politician that spouts the rhetoric of class war but it really doesn't strike a chord with most people nowadays. Times have moved on society changes-I come from a working class background and have a "middle class" occupation so what should my values be?
Oh no, if you ask me, I would say we're very conscious of "class." When we meet someone new, one of the first things we ask is "So what do you do?" Meaning for a living. It's sad really because people "do" many things and are certainly more than what their jobs make them.
[snip]
Rambling post-hope it makes sense.
Yes, it did very much.
buttercup;662475 wrote: I'm just sitting here thinking - what exactly is middle class?
I'm not sure anymore, Buttercup. Growing up I always thought we were a basic middle class family. We were blue collar all the way, even the college graduates. I based that on our collective code and standards, the fact that we worked hard and were fair people, and that the money had to stretch but we still had money to enjoy some nice things. For me it wasn't just about how much money my parents and eventually I, made, it was the whole package.
Whats the amount of money you have to earn to have this label?
Someone else could answer this, I'm sure, as I really don't know.
When exactly do you stop being working class & become middle class, is it about how much you get paid or what your born into/how you act?
Good question. Maybe both or maybe it depends on who you ask. The skeezers who live behind me make arguably more money than I do, yet I and others consider them "white trash." When I think of middle class I do not think of them. They're very crude and uneducated people.
Galbally;662477 wrote: I don't mind who they make middle class as long as they give us nice badges when we do make it, oh and a nice red sash with "middle class" on it if you make upper middle class, and then a peaked cap with "made man/woman" if you get right to the top.
:wah: !!!
Some people I would consider to be middle class, I would also call them the working poor. So that tells me that I do see a person's attitude and personal code as part of the equation.
Wow. I never even considered any of that. You're right.
Sometimes I think about this stuff and try to deduce it to its lowest denominator...like who's more important: a surgeon or the man who makes his machines and implements or the guy who forges the steel into a scalpel or the man who made the scalpel maker's car so he could get to work? And so on and so on. See what I mean? (I hope- it's late for me) But you opened my eyes a bit with what you've said.
Bit surprised actually, I always thought America was supposed to be a classless society where such petty distinctions based on what you do for a living have no place. We still have the odd socialist politician that spouts the rhetoric of class war but it really doesn't strike a chord with most people nowadays. Times have moved on society changes-I come from a working class background and have a "middle class" occupation so what should my values be?
Oh no, if you ask me, I would say we're very conscious of "class." When we meet someone new, one of the first things we ask is "So what do you do?" Meaning for a living. It's sad really because people "do" many things and are certainly more than what their jobs make them.
[snip]
Rambling post-hope it makes sense.
Yes, it did very much.
buttercup;662475 wrote: I'm just sitting here thinking - what exactly is middle class?
I'm not sure anymore, Buttercup. Growing up I always thought we were a basic middle class family. We were blue collar all the way, even the college graduates. I based that on our collective code and standards, the fact that we worked hard and were fair people, and that the money had to stretch but we still had money to enjoy some nice things. For me it wasn't just about how much money my parents and eventually I, made, it was the whole package.
Whats the amount of money you have to earn to have this label?
Someone else could answer this, I'm sure, as I really don't know.
When exactly do you stop being working class & become middle class, is it about how much you get paid or what your born into/how you act?
Good question. Maybe both or maybe it depends on who you ask. The skeezers who live behind me make arguably more money than I do, yet I and others consider them "white trash." When I think of middle class I do not think of them. They're very crude and uneducated people.
Galbally;662477 wrote: I don't mind who they make middle class as long as they give us nice badges when we do make it, oh and a nice red sash with "middle class" on it if you make upper middle class, and then a peaked cap with "made man/woman" if you get right to the top.
:wah: !!!
Some people I would consider to be middle class, I would also call them the working poor. So that tells me that I do see a person's attitude and personal code as part of the equation.
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Who Deserves to Be Middle Class?
Wikipedia defines middle class:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class
Somebody's personal commentary:
http://www.rense.com/general59/usmid.htm
Better article by Harvard Magazine:
http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/010682.html
I would like to know if the notion of "middle class" is just an American thing or if other countries have such a thing as well?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class
Somebody's personal commentary:
http://www.rense.com/general59/usmid.htm
Better article by Harvard Magazine:
http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/010682.html
I would like to know if the notion of "middle class" is just an American thing or if other countries have such a thing as well?
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Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Who Deserves to Be Middle Class?
It started as a real thing with kings and serfs and such. I've never met anybody that placed any importance on the label.
Who Deserves to Be Middle Class?
RedGlitter;662488 wrote: Wikipedia defines middle class:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class
Somebody's personal commentary:
http://www.rense.com/general59/usmid.htm
Better article by Harvard Magazine:
http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/010682.html
I would like to know if the notion of "middle class" is just an American thing or if other countries have such a thing as well?
Like your political institutions the idea of class owes much to it's European roots. The US has put it's own stamp and interpretation on the issue. It's as much a a debate as to how to you deal with and describe distinctions and unfairness and injustice in a society. You need labels, class is one such.
If someone working picking lettuce says I am as good as the man that owns the field is he an egalitarian or a revolutionary? The distinction may be financial but it can also be a class thing. Landowner and serf. landowner and peasant, landowner and employee. One has convinced the other of his right to own the land.-in the old days it was a warlord, then an aristocrat, now a company or agribusiness. Many European peasants went to America because they wanted their own land or because they were kicked off what they had it in Europe. Is someone who owns land in America an aristocrat (upper class) or a peasant farmer. The original middle class were the ones in the towns-merchants, lawyers etc who served the landowners. Literally the ones in the middle-not serf and not landowner As towns grew so did the middle class in power and influence.
As I said earlier time moves on and US experience is very different from Europe but both have affected the other. The concept of middle class is not a peculiarly american one nor is it originally american either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_of_Man
Men are born, and always continue, free and equal in respect of their rights. Civil distinctions, therefore, can be founded only on public utility.
Civil distinction, class distinction-same thing different words.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class
Somebody's personal commentary:
http://www.rense.com/general59/usmid.htm
Better article by Harvard Magazine:
http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/010682.html
I would like to know if the notion of "middle class" is just an American thing or if other countries have such a thing as well?
Like your political institutions the idea of class owes much to it's European roots. The US has put it's own stamp and interpretation on the issue. It's as much a a debate as to how to you deal with and describe distinctions and unfairness and injustice in a society. You need labels, class is one such.
If someone working picking lettuce says I am as good as the man that owns the field is he an egalitarian or a revolutionary? The distinction may be financial but it can also be a class thing. Landowner and serf. landowner and peasant, landowner and employee. One has convinced the other of his right to own the land.-in the old days it was a warlord, then an aristocrat, now a company or agribusiness. Many European peasants went to America because they wanted their own land or because they were kicked off what they had it in Europe. Is someone who owns land in America an aristocrat (upper class) or a peasant farmer. The original middle class were the ones in the towns-merchants, lawyers etc who served the landowners. Literally the ones in the middle-not serf and not landowner As towns grew so did the middle class in power and influence.
As I said earlier time moves on and US experience is very different from Europe but both have affected the other. The concept of middle class is not a peculiarly american one nor is it originally american either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_of_Man
Men are born, and always continue, free and equal in respect of their rights. Civil distinctions, therefore, can be founded only on public utility.
Civil distinction, class distinction-same thing different words.
Who Deserves to Be Middle Class?
Accountable;662495 wrote: It started as a real thing with kings and serfs and such. I've never met anybody that placed any importance on the label.
Come to Europe, we have lots of people like that, I believe the technical term for them is "nobs".
Come to Europe, we have lots of people like that, I believe the technical term for them is "nobs".
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.