It's official, Russia suspends CFE treaty.
It's official, Russia suspends CFE treaty.
deja vu. the siting of US missiles in Turkey is what sparked the train of events that led to the cuban missile crisis in the 60's. I think it's deliberate provocation on the part of the US however they want to dress it up.
It's official, Russia suspends CFE treaty.
I think the EU and the U.S. do need to be more sensitive to Russian sensibilities, and its unfortunate that the Russia has decided to suspend the treaty. But at the same time, Putin is also engaging in a game of brinksmanship here, and thats unwise for everyone involved. Europeans are every bit as worried about their security as Russians, and the antics of the Russian government over the past 12 months haven't done much to lower the temperature.
I am sure that at some point rationality will break out on all sides as its not in the EU's the CIS's or the U.S.'s interest to increase tensions any more than they already have been. It will be interesting to see whether Putin will change the constitution to make sure that he gets in for another term of office, I wouldn't be surprised at all. He has been very astute at using the tensions with the West to increase his popularity. Western countries have been kinda foolish and played into this image of being anti-Russian, but I think if Putin gets what he wants his next move will be to decrease tension with the West and get back to hammering Chechnya, as well subverting the Ukraine, and Georgia and the West will play along.
I am sure that at some point rationality will break out on all sides as its not in the EU's the CIS's or the U.S.'s interest to increase tensions any more than they already have been. It will be interesting to see whether Putin will change the constitution to make sure that he gets in for another term of office, I wouldn't be surprised at all. He has been very astute at using the tensions with the West to increase his popularity. Western countries have been kinda foolish and played into this image of being anti-Russian, but I think if Putin gets what he wants his next move will be to decrease tension with the West and get back to hammering Chechnya, as well subverting the Ukraine, and Georgia and the West will play along.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
It's official, Russia suspends CFE treaty.
Galbally;729033 wrote: I think the EU and the U.S. do need to be more sensitive to Russian sensibilities, and its unfortunate that the Russia has decided to suspend the treaty. But at the same time, Putin is also engaging in a game of brinksmanship here, and thats unwise for everyone involved. Europeans are every bit as worried about their security as Russians, and the antics of the Russian government over the past 12 months haven't done much to lower the temperature.
I am sure that at some point rationality will break out on all sides as its not in the EU's the CIS's or the U.S.'s interest to increase tensions any more than they already have been. It will be interesting to see whether Putin will change the constitution to make sure that he gets in for another term of office, I wouldn't be surprised at all. He has been very astute at using the tensions with the West to increase his popularity. Western countries have been kinda foolish and played into this image of being anti-Russian, but I think if Putin gets what he wants his next move will be to decrease tension with the West and get back to hammering Chechnya, as well subverting the Ukraine, and Georgia and the West will play along.
It's weird, it's like the establishment in the west can't lose it's cold war mentality and sees a chance to get one over on the russians rather than a chance to dismantle all the old enmities.
I am sure that at some point rationality will break out on all sides as its not in the EU's the CIS's or the U.S.'s interest to increase tensions any more than they already have been. It will be interesting to see whether Putin will change the constitution to make sure that he gets in for another term of office, I wouldn't be surprised at all. He has been very astute at using the tensions with the West to increase his popularity. Western countries have been kinda foolish and played into this image of being anti-Russian, but I think if Putin gets what he wants his next move will be to decrease tension with the West and get back to hammering Chechnya, as well subverting the Ukraine, and Georgia and the West will play along.
It's weird, it's like the establishment in the west can't lose it's cold war mentality and sees a chance to get one over on the russians rather than a chance to dismantle all the old enmities.
It's official, Russia suspends CFE treaty.
Scrat;729026 wrote: Peace has a lower profit margin. You have to break things to make something happen in the minds of some of the powerful in the west.
Russia has followed every rule of the CFE to the letter since it was put in place, Europe/America has done nothing but expand NATO and meddle to no end in Russias and the CISs business.
This especially irks me because I see America wasting money in wars all over the world and when I was in Belarus last week I saw a special on Chan 1 about the city of Kazan. Everything there has been redone, bridges, roads, streets the port, everything. Here in America the bridges are falling down.
I'm sick of this crap.
I wish we'd quit meddling. Having both Russia and China unhappy with the U.S. and EU is a scary thought!
Russia has followed every rule of the CFE to the letter since it was put in place, Europe/America has done nothing but expand NATO and meddle to no end in Russias and the CISs business.
This especially irks me because I see America wasting money in wars all over the world and when I was in Belarus last week I saw a special on Chan 1 about the city of Kazan. Everything there has been redone, bridges, roads, streets the port, everything. Here in America the bridges are falling down.
I'm sick of this crap.
I wish we'd quit meddling. Having both Russia and China unhappy with the U.S. and EU is a scary thought!
"Girls are crazy! I'm not ever getting married, I can make my own sandwiches!"
my son
my son
It's official, Russia suspends CFE treaty.
gmc;729849 wrote: It's weird, it's like the establishment in the west can't lose it's cold war mentality and sees a chance to get one over on the russians rather than a chance to dismantle all the old enmities.
Well I think that works both ways to be perfectly honest, Putin is a bit of a cold warrior himself you know and it reverting to type I think. We shall see what he does about trying to get in for a third term. I think that what's happening is that the Russian government is reverting to its authoritarian norm, and I think we will have to just accept that and make the best of it, but at the same time we shouldn't let the Russians think that they can push ex-soviet countries like Lativa or Poland around and threaten the rest of the EU with its economic power, that would be very unwise. I think that the situation will settle down after a while, as the Russians have made their presence felt again, and I don't think they will be ignored from here on in.
Well I think that works both ways to be perfectly honest, Putin is a bit of a cold warrior himself you know and it reverting to type I think. We shall see what he does about trying to get in for a third term. I think that what's happening is that the Russian government is reverting to its authoritarian norm, and I think we will have to just accept that and make the best of it, but at the same time we shouldn't let the Russians think that they can push ex-soviet countries like Lativa or Poland around and threaten the rest of the EU with its economic power, that would be very unwise. I think that the situation will settle down after a while, as the Russians have made their presence felt again, and I don't think they will be ignored from here on in.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
It's official, Russia suspends CFE treaty.
i want my tax dollars back from russia..why does america go and send so much money over to other countries and then up our military power near them at the same time..
it almost looks like we are playing soldier..here..get your **** together so we can play..war...
it almost looks like we are playing soldier..here..get your **** together so we can play..war...
It's official, Russia suspends CFE treaty.
Scrat;730020 wrote: I think that in a lot of respects you are correct Galbally except that Putin is a patriot, not a warrior. What is wrong with that? He and his people are dedicated to bettering his peoples lot in life if possible (they have in many ways) and creating the means of a sustainable prosperity for Russia.
I'd really like to have a president like that.
It seems that almost in toto the intellectual (???) and industrial elite (we know why this is) of the West go to no end to find anything to throw at him and the Russians in the form of condescending stereotypes and up to outright lies. It's safe to do this in the western media, if you write about social problems in the west ect you will soon find yourself in trouble but the safest and therefore favorite whipping boy out there is of course, Russia. Big bad Russia.
Really, a long as they sell their resources to Europe and the west who's goddamn business is it what goes on there? The Ukrainians want unfettered capitalism in their country, unless they have to pay the market price for gas of course. It's just fine to shut down the canneries and a large part of the food producing industry so that the prices soar to a level that 50% of a persons income is required to put food on the table. That's fine, just don't expect the gas to be sold to the country at market prices. It's called capitalism. You really don't think the people of the Ukraine are going to get a discount are they?;)
I go to both Russia and Belarus regularly and I see no one in chains, I have no one following me in a dark greatcoat and a fedora. I roam as I wish and speak to whom I wish. If you want me to compare what I see between places like the Ukraine and Poland to places like Belarus (complete with evil bloodsucking dictator Lukashenko) and Russia I KNOW which people are better off.
Russians are only part European, they do not think like Europeans or Americans, they want a king, not a president. They prefer to do things in an orderly stable manner, stable being the key word here. The west thinks that to make an omelete
you have to break eggs and in this case clearly intend too.
I think what you have to understand is that a lot of the nations in the EU were once part of the ex-Soviet Union, underwent defacto Russian occupation for 50 years, and basically don't like Russians very much and get frightened when Russia's government start rattling the Sabre, after all unlike the States we don't have an ocean between us and Russia. But of course the Russians run their own affairs thats as it should be, but from our perspective they can seem a bit menacing at times. I don't think that there are any problems that can't be sorted out, and also European countries tend to understand the Russians better than the Americans can, as obviously Russia in some respects (as you mention) is a European country and shares certain cultural and civilizational values with other European countries.
I'd really like to have a president like that.
It seems that almost in toto the intellectual (???) and industrial elite (we know why this is) of the West go to no end to find anything to throw at him and the Russians in the form of condescending stereotypes and up to outright lies. It's safe to do this in the western media, if you write about social problems in the west ect you will soon find yourself in trouble but the safest and therefore favorite whipping boy out there is of course, Russia. Big bad Russia.
Really, a long as they sell their resources to Europe and the west who's goddamn business is it what goes on there? The Ukrainians want unfettered capitalism in their country, unless they have to pay the market price for gas of course. It's just fine to shut down the canneries and a large part of the food producing industry so that the prices soar to a level that 50% of a persons income is required to put food on the table. That's fine, just don't expect the gas to be sold to the country at market prices. It's called capitalism. You really don't think the people of the Ukraine are going to get a discount are they?;)
I go to both Russia and Belarus regularly and I see no one in chains, I have no one following me in a dark greatcoat and a fedora. I roam as I wish and speak to whom I wish. If you want me to compare what I see between places like the Ukraine and Poland to places like Belarus (complete with evil bloodsucking dictator Lukashenko) and Russia I KNOW which people are better off.
Russians are only part European, they do not think like Europeans or Americans, they want a king, not a president. They prefer to do things in an orderly stable manner, stable being the key word here. The west thinks that to make an omelete
you have to break eggs and in this case clearly intend too.
I think what you have to understand is that a lot of the nations in the EU were once part of the ex-Soviet Union, underwent defacto Russian occupation for 50 years, and basically don't like Russians very much and get frightened when Russia's government start rattling the Sabre, after all unlike the States we don't have an ocean between us and Russia. But of course the Russians run their own affairs thats as it should be, but from our perspective they can seem a bit menacing at times. I don't think that there are any problems that can't be sorted out, and also European countries tend to understand the Russians better than the Americans can, as obviously Russia in some respects (as you mention) is a European country and shares certain cultural and civilizational values with other European countries.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
It's official, Russia suspends CFE treaty.
Scrat with all due respect stop trying to patronize me, Europeans were ruling the planet when Americans were still subjects of the British Crown living in log Cabins and hiding from Indians. We know how the game is played, you must think us rare fools if you think we don't understand who is who and what is what. The major Europeans Nations and Russia were having their own issues long before the U.S. came along? You may remember it was Napoleon that invaded as far as Moscow in 1815, the Russians got whooped by Germany in 1916 at Tannenberg, and then there was that nasty business with the Wermacht and the Red Army in 1941-1945 when the Reds whooped the Nazi's, so I don't really know what you are talking about. We are suspicious of the Russians and they of us for our own reasons of history, and America is the a latecomer to all of this. So please don't fall into the trap of thinking this is all about the US, it isn't at all. Yes America is the most powerful aspect of NATO and since WWII the US has basically been the big stick that guarantees European security, and to be honest that has worked out very well for us so why would we change it?
European countries are still in a military alliance with the U.S. precisely because the US shares the same political and economic outlook (broadly) as most European countries, and it suits their interests to keep that alliance going. If that changes, then the alliance may end as of course we do have a different perspective about the world, and you may have noticed that the EU and the U.S. often disagree vigorously about a lot of things (including Russian relations) but that doesn't make us enemies. I don't think that the EU is anti-Russian at all, but we are quite sanguine about that country's commitment to internal democracy and a truly free society. If thats how it turns out then so be it, I am sure we can work with Putin, but don't expect us to just smile and nod as he re-establishhes a one-party state in a country with a history of extremely authoritarian repression and don't expect the EU to just roll over when the Russians try to bully the Poles or the Latvians etc.
European countries are still in a military alliance with the U.S. precisely because the US shares the same political and economic outlook (broadly) as most European countries, and it suits their interests to keep that alliance going. If that changes, then the alliance may end as of course we do have a different perspective about the world, and you may have noticed that the EU and the U.S. often disagree vigorously about a lot of things (including Russian relations) but that doesn't make us enemies. I don't think that the EU is anti-Russian at all, but we are quite sanguine about that country's commitment to internal democracy and a truly free society. If thats how it turns out then so be it, I am sure we can work with Putin, but don't expect us to just smile and nod as he re-establishhes a one-party state in a country with a history of extremely authoritarian repression and don't expect the EU to just roll over when the Russians try to bully the Poles or the Latvians etc.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
It's official, Russia suspends CFE treaty.
What Galbally said.
posted by scrat
The one thing I don't understand is Europes inability to deal with the fact that they have been pawns of the US for the better part of the last century. When in the hell are you people going to get it together and REALIZE that Russia is not your problem by YOUR choice.
Who in the hell is putting anti missile "defences" on European soil? Peter Rabbit? How's about Jugged Hare? Walmart? Ikea?
It was and probably still is our problem. One of the reasons both the British and the French went for an independent nuclear deterrent was because there was always the uncertainty about what america would do if Russia decided to invade. The french and De Gaulle in particular trusted the americans about as far as they could throw them which is why they threw them out. The nato alliance would only last so long as it suited the US and already there are moves afoot in case an alternative is needed. Some in europe see the US actions as being deliberately provocative, some of the pronouncements from the current us administration are not exactly helping either. It would be big mistake to assume that europe is merely a satellite of the US. Alliances work both ways- so do trade agreements and alliances -or they don't work at all.
posted by scrat
The one thing I don't understand is Europes inability to deal with the fact that they have been pawns of the US for the better part of the last century. When in the hell are you people going to get it together and REALIZE that Russia is not your problem by YOUR choice.
Who in the hell is putting anti missile "defences" on European soil? Peter Rabbit? How's about Jugged Hare? Walmart? Ikea?
It was and probably still is our problem. One of the reasons both the British and the French went for an independent nuclear deterrent was because there was always the uncertainty about what america would do if Russia decided to invade. The french and De Gaulle in particular trusted the americans about as far as they could throw them which is why they threw them out. The nato alliance would only last so long as it suited the US and already there are moves afoot in case an alternative is needed. Some in europe see the US actions as being deliberately provocative, some of the pronouncements from the current us administration are not exactly helping either. It would be big mistake to assume that europe is merely a satellite of the US. Alliances work both ways- so do trade agreements and alliances -or they don't work at all.
It's official, Russia suspends CFE treaty.
Scrat;732648 wrote: I agree that you both are correct here. I do think that Europe has been setting a more independant course but I do not think it will do much good.
Belarus and Russia signed an agreement yesterday to allow Russa to keep Iskander missiles on Belarussian territory, how many I don't know but they will not be nuclear. Or so they say.
Somebody had better get to work on some kind of agreement.
I suspect because you cannot see beyond the US/USSR as the two major protagonists. Times change, The only thing you can be certain of is things won't be the same as they were before. Russia won't be able to establish the kind of hegemony that they had before. A lot of the nationalist sentiment that was squashed under the ussr is going to come in to play more and more. Russia took over nations totally exhausted by years of war that couldn't defend themselves. Meanwhile the USA is bankrupting itself in Iraq and pursuing a foreign policy completely oblivious to what the rest of the world thinks about it and makes no bones about going it's own way. South america is getting increasingly assertive and less willing to tolerate US trade practices and bullying of governments it doesn't like. Meanwhile china sits and watches while developing it's satellite weapon systems getting ready to take out those of the west.
It's really funny how intellectuals bandy about the word "democracy". It really has no meaning anymore, the concept has been applied in so many different ways and used in so many places as a label (some "democratic" governments don't hesitate to murder their own people) in so many places that frankly I am confused.
It means what it always has
democracy
/dimokrsi/
• noun (pl. democracies) 1 a form of government in which the people have a voice in the exercise of power, typically through elected representatives.
Who gets to vote is a whole separate question. The early greeks didn't let slaves or women vote-neither did the romans. Pagan political philosophy at it's best. Who needs a priest or a leader to tell you what to think?
Belarus and Russia signed an agreement yesterday to allow Russa to keep Iskander missiles on Belarussian territory, how many I don't know but they will not be nuclear. Or so they say.
Somebody had better get to work on some kind of agreement.
I suspect because you cannot see beyond the US/USSR as the two major protagonists. Times change, The only thing you can be certain of is things won't be the same as they were before. Russia won't be able to establish the kind of hegemony that they had before. A lot of the nationalist sentiment that was squashed under the ussr is going to come in to play more and more. Russia took over nations totally exhausted by years of war that couldn't defend themselves. Meanwhile the USA is bankrupting itself in Iraq and pursuing a foreign policy completely oblivious to what the rest of the world thinks about it and makes no bones about going it's own way. South america is getting increasingly assertive and less willing to tolerate US trade practices and bullying of governments it doesn't like. Meanwhile china sits and watches while developing it's satellite weapon systems getting ready to take out those of the west.
It's really funny how intellectuals bandy about the word "democracy". It really has no meaning anymore, the concept has been applied in so many different ways and used in so many places as a label (some "democratic" governments don't hesitate to murder their own people) in so many places that frankly I am confused.
It means what it always has
democracy
/dimokrsi/
• noun (pl. democracies) 1 a form of government in which the people have a voice in the exercise of power, typically through elected representatives.
Who gets to vote is a whole separate question. The early greeks didn't let slaves or women vote-neither did the romans. Pagan political philosophy at it's best. Who needs a priest or a leader to tell you what to think?
It's official, Russia suspends CFE treaty.
Scrat;732647 wrote: It's really funny how intellectuals bandy about the word "democracy". It really has no meaning anymore, the concept has been applied in so many different ways and used in so many places as a label (some "democratic" governments don't hesitate to murder their own people) in so many places that frankly I am confused.
Don't patronize you? I'll say what the Russians have said, don't **** down my back and tell me it's raining. They got a taste of "democracy" in the 90s and it left them wondering where their next meal is coming from. Don't forget who is hiding whom and who openly endorsed that drunken fool Yeltsin, perhaps it's about time Europeans showed a little respect. Mainly England in this case, if I was Putin they wouldn't even have an embassy in Moscow.
Don't apply your standards to other people. Don't pressure them to be like you.
As for the Baltic states you had best keep your little Nazis in line or there may be trouble from the people that are being discriminated against by the governments there. You don't even want to think about Russia backing them militarily. Don't go whining about the trauma of the "occupation" either, we all know why that happened.
I think thats a very interesting post. Firstly the idea that democracy has no meaning anymore? Well it does in my country scrat whatever about yours, and we quite like having the ability to get rid of governments that become unpopular, having the seperation of powers, and a rule of law that applies to everyone, including our government, and I am quite sure the British also appreicate this as do all EU member states.
As for Yeltsin, it was the Russian people who voted him in, not the UK government, and if the Russian economy was badly managed in the 90s then the responsibility for that lies with the Russian government not the EU. The British have ample respect for Russia, but they also have every right to state their displeasure when the Russian secret service uses radioactive materials to murder dissidents in the middle of the UK's Capital City. Also, there are many Russians themselves who are deeply alarmed at what is happening in Russia at present, so should we ignore this and tell them to shut up because its inconvenient? In Europe I think in general we regard the Russians as fellow Europeans, though we understand that Russia is a unique place also. I also hardly feel that the Russians closing down the British embassy would achieve much other than the closing down of the Russian embassy in London, and where would that get anyone? We need to re-engage with the Russian government on a whole range of things and get these problems sorted out, not increase tensions further. Also in regards to the Soviet Occupation of Eastern Europe from 1945, why don't you ask Poles, Czechs or Hungarians what they experienced during those times, none of those countries were exactly bossom buddies of Hitler and the Nazi's so why are you implying that they got what they deserved after the war? Thats a very unfair viewpoint. But that period is over now, and we all have to get on with each other, Russians have their own well-deserved sense of grievances about history, but they don't have a monoply on suffering.
Also who are you classifying as "Nazis" in the Baltic states? Thats a big accusation to level at anyone? I hardly think Russia could feel in any way threatened by Latvia, Estonia, or Lithuania, though perhaps there are hard feelings that these countries were so eager to leave the Soviet Union and the CIS, but that was their choice, as was their decision to join the EU? Your whole tone is very reactionary and threatening, I don't really understand why you feel personally so agrieved at all of this, surely European citizens have a right to express their opinions on Russia, or the EUs relationship with Russia. Again, I have alrady said that I don't believe anyone in this part of the world considers Russia an enemy, but we do find some of the things that Putin is up to alarming, just as we also find some of the shenanigans of George Bush alarming, whats wrong with that?
Don't patronize you? I'll say what the Russians have said, don't **** down my back and tell me it's raining. They got a taste of "democracy" in the 90s and it left them wondering where their next meal is coming from. Don't forget who is hiding whom and who openly endorsed that drunken fool Yeltsin, perhaps it's about time Europeans showed a little respect. Mainly England in this case, if I was Putin they wouldn't even have an embassy in Moscow.
Don't apply your standards to other people. Don't pressure them to be like you.
As for the Baltic states you had best keep your little Nazis in line or there may be trouble from the people that are being discriminated against by the governments there. You don't even want to think about Russia backing them militarily. Don't go whining about the trauma of the "occupation" either, we all know why that happened.
I think thats a very interesting post. Firstly the idea that democracy has no meaning anymore? Well it does in my country scrat whatever about yours, and we quite like having the ability to get rid of governments that become unpopular, having the seperation of powers, and a rule of law that applies to everyone, including our government, and I am quite sure the British also appreicate this as do all EU member states.
As for Yeltsin, it was the Russian people who voted him in, not the UK government, and if the Russian economy was badly managed in the 90s then the responsibility for that lies with the Russian government not the EU. The British have ample respect for Russia, but they also have every right to state their displeasure when the Russian secret service uses radioactive materials to murder dissidents in the middle of the UK's Capital City. Also, there are many Russians themselves who are deeply alarmed at what is happening in Russia at present, so should we ignore this and tell them to shut up because its inconvenient? In Europe I think in general we regard the Russians as fellow Europeans, though we understand that Russia is a unique place also. I also hardly feel that the Russians closing down the British embassy would achieve much other than the closing down of the Russian embassy in London, and where would that get anyone? We need to re-engage with the Russian government on a whole range of things and get these problems sorted out, not increase tensions further. Also in regards to the Soviet Occupation of Eastern Europe from 1945, why don't you ask Poles, Czechs or Hungarians what they experienced during those times, none of those countries were exactly bossom buddies of Hitler and the Nazi's so why are you implying that they got what they deserved after the war? Thats a very unfair viewpoint. But that period is over now, and we all have to get on with each other, Russians have their own well-deserved sense of grievances about history, but they don't have a monoply on suffering.
Also who are you classifying as "Nazis" in the Baltic states? Thats a big accusation to level at anyone? I hardly think Russia could feel in any way threatened by Latvia, Estonia, or Lithuania, though perhaps there are hard feelings that these countries were so eager to leave the Soviet Union and the CIS, but that was their choice, as was their decision to join the EU? Your whole tone is very reactionary and threatening, I don't really understand why you feel personally so agrieved at all of this, surely European citizens have a right to express their opinions on Russia, or the EUs relationship with Russia. Again, I have alrady said that I don't believe anyone in this part of the world considers Russia an enemy, but we do find some of the things that Putin is up to alarming, just as we also find some of the shenanigans of George Bush alarming, whats wrong with that?
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
It's official, Russia suspends CFE treaty.
gmc;732640 wrote: What Galbally said.
posted by scrat
It was and probably still is our problem. One of the reasons both the British and the French went for an independent nuclear deterrent was because there was always the uncertainty about what america would do if Russia decided to invade. The french and De Gaulle in particular trusted the americans about as far as they could throw them which is why they threw them out. The nato alliance would only last so long as it suited the US and already there are moves afoot in case an alternative is needed. Some in europe see the US actions as being deliberately provocative, some of the pronouncements from the current us administration are not exactly helping either. It would be big mistake to assume that europe is merely a satellite of the US. Alliances work both ways- so do trade agreements and alliances -or they don't work at all.
I agree that EU countries have been put in a very difficult position because of the belicosity of the current U.S. administration, I don't think anyone involved wants the NATO alliance to end, but the last thing that the EU wants is a Russia that is being antogonized unnecessarily by what the Kremlin percieves to be anti-Russian moves by the U.S., however we are also allies of the U.S. (which has been a good ally to Europe lets be fair) and maintaining good relations with the Americans is also very important, so we have to play a cautious game (as usual). Which all points to the fact that on foreign policy matters the EU countries need to get their act together and come up with coherent policies together that serve our collective interests as well as promoting stability and peace as far as is possible.
I think as you mentioned already, this is the 21st century and the realities of the post war 20th century no longer apply, the world is not a bipolar world anymore shared between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R, but a multipolar one with a lot of powerful actors involved including the U.S. the EU, Russia, Japan, and China, as well as several others that are up and coming like India, but perhaps the politics hasn't quite caught up to the reality yet.
posted by scrat
It was and probably still is our problem. One of the reasons both the British and the French went for an independent nuclear deterrent was because there was always the uncertainty about what america would do if Russia decided to invade. The french and De Gaulle in particular trusted the americans about as far as they could throw them which is why they threw them out. The nato alliance would only last so long as it suited the US and already there are moves afoot in case an alternative is needed. Some in europe see the US actions as being deliberately provocative, some of the pronouncements from the current us administration are not exactly helping either. It would be big mistake to assume that europe is merely a satellite of the US. Alliances work both ways- so do trade agreements and alliances -or they don't work at all.
I agree that EU countries have been put in a very difficult position because of the belicosity of the current U.S. administration, I don't think anyone involved wants the NATO alliance to end, but the last thing that the EU wants is a Russia that is being antogonized unnecessarily by what the Kremlin percieves to be anti-Russian moves by the U.S., however we are also allies of the U.S. (which has been a good ally to Europe lets be fair) and maintaining good relations with the Americans is also very important, so we have to play a cautious game (as usual). Which all points to the fact that on foreign policy matters the EU countries need to get their act together and come up with coherent policies together that serve our collective interests as well as promoting stability and peace as far as is possible.
I think as you mentioned already, this is the 21st century and the realities of the post war 20th century no longer apply, the world is not a bipolar world anymore shared between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R, but a multipolar one with a lot of powerful actors involved including the U.S. the EU, Russia, Japan, and China, as well as several others that are up and coming like India, but perhaps the politics hasn't quite caught up to the reality yet.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
It's official, Russia suspends CFE treaty.
Scrat;733277 wrote: You can get rid of the governments (although not in a timely manner) but can you change the policies of the country? Everyone here knows GWB and the repugnicans are in dire straights here and they may not be in power for long but the key is CAN WE CHANGE US POLICY, that is very doubtful as the next group of thugs will simply carry on. There is no profit in peace Galbally, keep that in mind.
I think your comments of European and Russian relations are as close to correct as anyone can get, GMC mentioned Poland and it's new prime minister. This man wants to have better relations with Russia and has a completely different attitude towards the whole thing than his predecessor who still had commies under his bed at night. Hopefully Europe will follow suite begin the healing process. You need Russias energy and resources, she needs your technology. It's a win win situation.
As for the Baltic states I'll accept the reactionary label, I cannot stand hypocrisy. people there are having to change their names in order to be more ethnically correct. The Russians of Estonia have all but taken themselves out of Estonian society, they are discriminated against in many ways. The same goes for Latvia and there was some nutjob in the Ukraine running around calling for the deaths of all Jews and Russians in the Ukraine. He went around chopping down birch trees because they are "Russian" trees. He's actually tolerated there.
Do a little research on that, you'll find that some of the things are downright lunatic and racist. I have read about what the Estonian SS Legion did in Belarus. I have no respect for any government who celebrates men who murdered in cold blood women, children and old folks for whatever reason. To glorify that part of their history is to me grounds for the same medicine they dished out all those years ago. That is sickening. I sure as hell don't see Russians glorifying the SU although they look on it as a part of their history and in some ways good they don't glorify or dwell on the bad things.
I think that there is quite a sharp difference between Irish politics and US politics Scrat, and I would say that we have a reasonably healthy democracy, though yeah we have our own problems as well with our system. In terms of war and peace, as a small nation we have a policy of neutrality and we are not in NATO(though I wouldn't say we were non aligned we are a western country), so we try to avoid getting mixed up in wars (some would say thats hyprocritical of us, and maybe it is, or maybe no one notices). We do send troops on UN peacekeeping missions though, most notably in Southern Lebanon and now we are helping to lead the EU Peacekeeping force that is heading to Chad.
I think your comments of European and Russian relations are as close to correct as anyone can get, GMC mentioned Poland and it's new prime minister. This man wants to have better relations with Russia and has a completely different attitude towards the whole thing than his predecessor who still had commies under his bed at night. Hopefully Europe will follow suite begin the healing process. You need Russias energy and resources, she needs your technology. It's a win win situation.
As for the Baltic states I'll accept the reactionary label, I cannot stand hypocrisy. people there are having to change their names in order to be more ethnically correct. The Russians of Estonia have all but taken themselves out of Estonian society, they are discriminated against in many ways. The same goes for Latvia and there was some nutjob in the Ukraine running around calling for the deaths of all Jews and Russians in the Ukraine. He went around chopping down birch trees because they are "Russian" trees. He's actually tolerated there.
Do a little research on that, you'll find that some of the things are downright lunatic and racist. I have read about what the Estonian SS Legion did in Belarus. I have no respect for any government who celebrates men who murdered in cold blood women, children and old folks for whatever reason. To glorify that part of their history is to me grounds for the same medicine they dished out all those years ago. That is sickening. I sure as hell don't see Russians glorifying the SU although they look on it as a part of their history and in some ways good they don't glorify or dwell on the bad things.
I think that there is quite a sharp difference between Irish politics and US politics Scrat, and I would say that we have a reasonably healthy democracy, though yeah we have our own problems as well with our system. In terms of war and peace, as a small nation we have a policy of neutrality and we are not in NATO(though I wouldn't say we were non aligned we are a western country), so we try to avoid getting mixed up in wars (some would say thats hyprocritical of us, and maybe it is, or maybe no one notices). We do send troops on UN peacekeeping missions though, most notably in Southern Lebanon and now we are helping to lead the EU Peacekeeping force that is heading to Chad.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
It's official, Russia suspends CFE treaty.
It's always been my view that modern-day representative democracy (as opposed to any classical form) is a system designed to restrict the power of an executive government on social issues. In the UK and in the EU countries generally we seem to be quite good at that. Neither the US nor the Russians have even started down that road.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.