Cannabis ... Drugs ... Cutting ... Prostitution

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:39 am

dunno if i should even post this thread here ... guess i should post it on one of

the counseling threads but ...

i've been here a while and tried real hard to behave ... never once asked for anything for myself ... but now i'm asking for something for someone else ...

i know i mess about on fg ... and as my lil' pussycat says "i'm a lyin git ... i'm a

tart ... i luv tarting ... pulling ... i say things i don't mean ... etc etc etc ... "

i'm ... well okay ... i'm a tart i admit it so there ... but only here in the cyber

underworld ...

in the real world i'm a well respected gentleman ... an author ... a poet ... slightly rich ... handsome ... successful ... the whole nine yards ... wow so

what??? i once tried to kill myself so what does that tell you about my life???

but enough about me ... you all know about me ...

but i want to be deadly serious for a moment and ask you all for your help ...

a very very good lady friend of mine ... yes a friend ... she lives in the uk

which is like 6000 miles away ... has a very serious problem with her 15 year old

daughter ... my friend ... lets call her joanne ... has been badly let down by the men in her life and is a single parent ...

here is a copy of a pm i sent to another friend about joanne's problem ... it's self explanatory ...

Cannibis Drugs and Cutting

Friend sent me this ... her daughter is fifteen ... please does anyone has any advice i can pass on to her?

"Found out a few days ago that my daughter has started smoking cannabis again.... the school foned me to tell me to collect her, as she seemed a bit 'out of it'... seems she smoked a joint before school.

Last week I was foned to inform me that she had cut her leg badly at school (self harm) and she was told to take the rest of the week off school... the first day back, I get the call to say she's stoned and I have to collect her.

Had a meeting with the school yesterday and with her Social Services worker and CAMHS worker... (childrens mental health services worker) and they all said that they don't know how to progress any further with her... she is manipulating them - telling them all different stories....

She's been wanting a puppy for ages.. so last week, quite by accident, we acquired a 5 month old Lakeland Terrier (Archie) - he is adoreable, but I made it clear that she will have to take him for walks, feed him, play with him, clean him etc..... all worked well for a few days, but now she's got a new friend and she is going out every night and completely disregarding her new dog, and basically leaving me to it. I suspect she's also taking drugs again.... although she's denying this... and I'm at a loss as to where to go from here! "

Thanx ...

now since these events my friends daughter ... and remember she is only 15 ...

has started sleeping with men to get money for her drug habit ... in other words

she is now a drug addicted prostitute ...

as you can imagine joanne is at her wits end ... she has been to see the

local "authorities" and know what they did? bloody gave her condoms and new needles to give to her child!!! this in England ... a first world democracy????

please can anyone help? i personally have absolutely no experience in this kind of thing but i so want to help joanne cos its gonna kill her in the end ... i know!

thanx everyone ... mwaaah!

Jj :-4

-

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:55 am

At that age the only thing I can imagine will improve her life is entirely peer related.

Self harm is related to a need to feel in control, so it can be assumed that she doesn't feel sufficiently in control of her life. Lying to adults is fairly normal for troubled kids, they are much more honest with their peers and trust them more. Trying to control who she spends time with will likely just cause further rebellion as she will again feel out of control of her own life.

The best that can be hoped if the parent isn't one of the girl's trusted friends is to find someone else that she will feel understands her and whom she values as a confident and adviser. Trying to set up sit down chats purely focused on what's "wrong" with her won't likely prove successful. Finding an artistic outlet would be nice and the ideal would be to hook her up with an older, wiser person than herself who promotes constructive artistic expression.

There is no quick fix.

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:12 am

koan;813858 wrote: At that age the only thing I can imagine will improve her life is entirely peer related.

Self harm is related to a need to feel in control, so it can be assumed that she doesn't feel sufficiently in control of her life. Lying to adults is fairly normal for troubled kids, they are much more honest with their peers and trust them more. Trying to control who she spends time with will likely just cause further rebellion as she will again feel out of control of her own life.

The best that can be hoped if the parent isn't one of the girl's trusted friends is to find someone else that she will feel understands her and whom she values as a confident and adviser. Trying to set up sit down chats purely focused on what's "wrong" with her won't likely prove successful. Finding an artistic outlet would be nice and the ideal would be to hook her up with an older, wiser person than herself who promotes constructive artistic expression.

There is no quick fix.

thank you for your interest and comment ...

i shall pass all replies on to joanne ...

Jj

Carolly · Post by **Carolly** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:17 am

We have made our thoughts on this subject on our thread JJ and really hope you can get some sound advice on this matter.I feel through reasons only known to myself very sad for the mother.........my thoughts are with her as the daughter isn't the only one who needs help.

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:20 am

Carolly;813863 wrote: We have made our thoughts on this subject on our thread JJ and really hope you can get some sound advice on this matter.I feel through reasons only known to myself very sad for the mother.........my thoughts are with her as the daughter isn't the only one who needs help.

yeah ... your spot on carol ... joanne ... well ... i dunno ...

can't always be the parent/s fault when a child goes off the rails ... can it???

Jj

Carolly · Post by **Carolly** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:28 am

jones jones;813864 wrote: yeah ... your spot on carol ... joanne ... well ... i dunno ...

can't always be the parent/s fault when a child goes off the rails ... can it???

JjNo JJ it isnt as our friend Jim has shown....... God Bless him.

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:33 am

jimbo;813865 wrote: i never really understood why people self harmed at all . then a couple of years ago when i found my daughter after 12 years of looking her i discovered that she had been raped at 13 , she had tried to kill herself repeatedly , she was into drugs big time meths ,coke , heroin drink every thing she was in a mentle hospital for her own protection

it hurt me so bad i used to wake up crying in my sleep i must of cried for a month solid , i was in so much pain i did not know what to do with myself , i walked down an ally way and i never noticed a spike sticking out of the wall , it went into my side splitting my flesh open wide a very deep cut opened and the blood poured out i just waited for the waves and waves of pain to follow but ai very strange thing happened it felt really really good the pain made me feel better , it was almost as if it was letting the pain flow from my broken heart and tortured soul , i really wanted to do it again i never did but it felt so good almost like a drug and now i understand why people do it , one pain really can cure another

as for advice for your friend , nothing i did worked all she can do is hang on in there and do the best she can , cyber hug her from me please :-6:-6:-6

hey jimbo my buddy ... i cyber hugged YOU before man ...

so i'm gonna give joanne a beeeeg beeeg cyber hug from you ...

better leave ... think i'm gonna cry ... :-1 :-1

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:40 am

Boy as other have said there is no easy answer here at all. I was a single mother at the age of 24 raising my daughter alone. She did everything but sell her body for drugs. she grew up finally. If it were not for the support of my FAMILY and friends she would be dead I'm sure of it, and maybe me as well.

jj your a good friend just do what you can to help her and yes she needs help as well as the daughter. There may be another family member her daughter will trust. It is a gut wrenching time getting her off the streets is the first step.

My daughter will be 40 at the end of the month they do eventually growup. :-4

Fromj the sounds of it I would also say her drug use has gone past a little POT.

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:48 am

CARLA;813876 wrote: Boy as other have said there is no easy answer here at all. I was a single mother at the age of 24 raising my daughter alone. She did everything but sell her body for drugs. she grew up finally. If it were not for the support of my FAMILY and friends she would be dead I'm sure of it, and maybe me as well.

jj your a good friend just do what you can to help her and yes she needs help as well as the daughter. There may be another family member her daughter will trust. It is a gut wrenching time getting her off the streets is the first step.

My daughter will be 40 at the end of the month they do eventually growup. :-4

hi carla ... as i said in my thread .. personally i have absolutely no experience of this type of behaviour ... makes me feel pretty helpless ...

joanne is a very close friend who has stood by and helped me thru many a dark and dangerous time ... i so so wanna help her ... but i cannot ...

people such as yourself and the others who have posted here will make the contribution i feel I should be making ...

thank you so so much ..

Jj :-4

moonpie · Post by **moonpie** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:36 pm

I feel sorry for that parent. Has anybody ever thought of counselling, either individually or the two of them at the same time?

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:48 pm

moonpie;813929 wrote: I feel sorry for that parent. Has anybody ever thought of counselling, either individually or the two of them at the same time?

think she's been there moonpie ...

the daughter promises the earth but ... :-1

moonpie · Post by **moonpie** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:53 pm

I was nowhere near being as screwed up as that poor kid, but my dad always threatened to put me into a home for juviniles, and he was serious.:wah:

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:59 pm

fuzzy butt;813935 wrote: JJ is this the same young girl who tried to commit suicide a while ago?

If so, see that other thread for the answer to this one.

Glad she's still with us.

the same ... thanx ...

[love]light · Post by **[love]light** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:45 pm

jones jones;813849 wrote: but now she's got a new friend and she is going out every night and completely disregarding her new dog

-

Of course, I don't know the whole situation, but this child need to be put under lock and key. Why is she going out every night if she is having such problems? What punishments has she recieved for not doing her chores for the dog? I'm not saying tough love is what she needs.

I went through a similar thing when I was her age. I had some major daddy issues. My mom cracked down on me with love and put my azz in therapy. We also sat down and had some major heart to hearts where she cried and told me how my actions hurt her. She got my teachers involved, as well.

The result? I felt cared about and protected. I respected my mother more, and didn't want to do anything to hurt her. It wasn't, afterall, her I was angry with.

Post by **jones jones** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:44 am

'[love wrote: light;814004']Of course, I don't know the whole situation, but this child need to be put under lock and key. Why is she going out every night if she is having such problems? What punishments has she recieved for not doing her chores for the dog? I'm not saying tough love is what she needs.

I went through a similar thing when I was her age. I had some major daddy issues. My mom cracked down on me with love and put my azz in therapy. We also sat down and had some major heart to hearts where she cried and told me how my actions hurt her. She got my teachers involved, as well.

The result? I felt cared about and protected. I respected my mother more, and didn't want to do anything to hurt her. It wasn't, afterall, her I was angry with.

hi [love]light ... thanx for your interest in this ...

so to answer your question ... Why is she going out every night if she is having such problems?

i asked her mother the same question and this is her reply:

You may be asking why I haven't 'grounded' her - I ask myself the same thing... but I know that if I do ground her, she will run away like she did before, so at least at the moment she is coming home every night and I know that she is careful as to how much drugs she uses, as I'm looking out for the signs when she comes home!

Jj

cherandbuster · Post by **cherandbuster** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:21 am

Hi JSquared :-6

I work for a group of therapists and psychiatrists -- it's one of the largest practices around. And who do you think are the busiest professionals in the offce?

The child/teen therapists and psychiatrists. :-1

It seems that, like Koan said, a trusted adult is paramount to her recovery. There's got to be a 'connection', a 'trust' -- and some children have to try a few different therapists until they find one that fits those requirements.

Anyone considering psychiatric medication for the teenager? Maybe these behaviors -- the acting out, cutting, illegal drugs -- are her way of 'self-medicating'.

Sending only my very best you your dear friend and family, JJ :-6

Post by **jones jones** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:33 am

cherandbuster;814128 wrote: Hi JSquared :-6

I work for a group of therapists and psychiatrists -- it's one of the largest practices around. And who do you think are the busiest professionals in the offce?

The child/teen therapists and psychiatrists. :-1

It seems that, like Koan said, a trusted adult is paramount to her recovery. There's got to be a 'connection', a 'trust' -- and some children have to try a few different therapists until they find one that fits those requirements.

Anyone considering psychiatric medication for the teenager? Maybe these behaviors -- the acting out, cutting, illegal drugs -- are her way of 'self-medicating'.

Sending only my very best you your dear friend and family, JJ :-6

thanx so so much cher honey ...

Jj :-4

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:49 am

Cannibis Drugs and Cutting

Friend sent me this ... her daughter is fifteen ... please does anyone has any advice i can pass on to her?

"Found out a few days ago that my daughter has started smoking cannabis again.... the school foned me to tell me to collect her, as she seemed a bit 'out of it'... seems she smoked a joint before school.

Last week I was foned to inform me that she had cut her leg badly at school (self harm) and she was told to take the rest of the week off school... the first day back, I get the call to say she's stoned and I have to collect her.

Had a meeting with the school yesterday and with her Social Services worker and CAMHS worker... (childrens mental health services worker) and they all said that they don't know how to progress any further with her... she is manipulating them - telling them all different stories....

She's been wanting a puppy for ages.. so last week, quite by accident, we acquired a 5 month old Lakeland Terrier (Archie) - he is adoreable, but I made it clear that she will have to take him for walks, feed him, play with him, clean him etc..... all worked well for a few days, but now she's got a new friend and she is going out every night and completely disregarding her new dog, and basically leaving me to it. I suspect she's also taking drugs again.... although she's denying this... and I'm at a loss as to where to go from here! "

Thanx ...

now since these events my friends daughter ... and remember she is only 15 ...

has started sleeping with men to get money for her drug habit ... in other words

she is now a drug addicted prostitute ...

as you can imagine joanne is at her wits end ... she has been to see the

local "authorities" and know what they did? bloody gave her condoms and new needles to give to her child!!! this in England ... a first world democracy????

please can anyone help? i personally have absolutely no experience in this kind of thing but i so want to help joanne cos its gonna kill her in the end ... i know!

thanx everyone ... mwaaah!

Jj

i forwarded all the advice offered here to my friend who has now responded to each of you indiviually ...

i shall post her replies here during the course of the day ...

Jj

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:53 am

koan;813858 wrote: At that age the only thing I can imagine will improve her life is entirely peer related.

Self harm is related to a need to feel in control, so it can be assumed that she doesn't feel sufficiently in control of her life. Lying to adults is fairly normal for troubled kids, they are much more honest with their peers and trust them more. Trying to control who she spends time with will likely just cause further rebellion as she will again feel out of control of her own life.

The best that can be hoped if the parent isn't one of the girl's trusted friends is to find someone else that she will feel understands her and whom she values as a confident and adviser. Trying to set up sit down chats purely focused on what's "wrong" with her won't likely prove successful. Finding an artistic outlet would be nice and the ideal would be to hook her up with an older, wiser person than herself who promotes constructive artistic expression.

There is no quick fix.

I agree that my daughter doesn't feel that she has much control over her life at the moment... she gets bullied at school a lot, has done for many years, and she doesn't feel confident, unless she takes drugs, alcohol etc.. She was abandoned by her father when she was born and has never know him... ( he flitted to Thailand, left me thousands of pounds in debt and has never contributed to her upbringing or been in touch) she can't understand why any father could abandon their child. She had some contact with her paternal grandmother, until a couple of years ago when she moved to Spain and she hasn't been in touch since, apart from to send a card at Christmas and birthday - no gifts, money or 'phone calls though... and she sees this again as more abandonment.

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:57 am

koan;813858 wrote: At that age the only thing I can imagine will improve her life is entirely peer related.

Self harm is related to a need to feel in control, so it can be assumed that she doesn't feel sufficiently in control of her life. Lying to adults is fairly normal for troubled kids, they are much more honest with their peers and trust them more. Trying to control who she spends time with will likely just cause further rebellion as she will again feel out of control of her own life.

The best that can be hoped if the parent isn't one of the girl's trusted friends is to find someone else that she will feel understands her and whom she values as a confident and adviser. Trying to set up sit down chats purely focused on what's "wrong" with her won't likely prove successful. Finding an artistic outlet would be nice and the ideal would be to hook her up with an older, wiser person than herself who promotes constructive artistic expression.

There is no quick fix.

She has been seeing a young woman from an agency recently that deals with young drug users and she feels at ease with her... looks forward to seeing her and they chat, go for coffee etc.. I'm hoping that she will be able to relate to her and aspire to be like this young woman. Her peers - as far as I'm concerned, are all a bad influence on her.... of course I can't BLAME her peers - Amelia chose her path and she seems to feel comfortable with the wrong type, for some reason.

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:23 am

jimbo;813865 wrote: i never really understood why people self harmed at all . then a couple of years ago when i found my daughter after 12 years of looking her i discovered that she had been raped at 13 , she had tried to kill herself repeatedly , she was into drugs big time meths ,coke , heroin drink every thing she was in a mentle hospital for her own protection

it hurt me so bad i used to wake up crying in my sleep i must of cried for a month solid , i was in so much pain i did not know what to do with myself , i walked down an ally way and i never noticed a spike sticking out of the wall , it went into my side splitting my flesh open wide a very deep cut opened and the blood poured out i just waited for the waves and waves of pain to follow but ai very strange thing happened it felt really really good the pain made me feel better , it was almost as if it was letting the pain flow from my broken heart and tortured soul , i really wanted to do it again i never did but it felt so good almost like a drug and now i understand why people do it , one pain really can cure another

as for advice for your friend , nothing i did worked all she can do is hang on in there and do the best she can , cyber hug her from me please :-6:-6:-6

You describe so well what my daughter tried to explain to me about her reasons and feelings for harming herself! My daughter wasn't raped.. but she was sexually abused by two older boys when she was 12/13 in a nightclub which was specifically a night for young teens. These 'boys' were around 17 years of age and they pinned her against a wall and both 'fingered' her... she never told me about this until five months later... by then it was too late to do anything about it as the video tapes of that night had been wiped and the only way of identifying these boys would have been by her standing at the door and pointing them out. I didn't wish to put her through that as she was already disturbed by having to talk about it with me - all I could do was be there for her, but looking back.. that incident was a turning point in her life. Thanks for the hug... and hanging in there is what I'm doing - it's all I can do at the moment! x x x

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:36 am

CARLA;813876 wrote: Boy as other have said there is no easy answer here at all. I was a single mother at the age of 24 raising my daughter alone. She did everything but sell her body for drugs. she grew up finally. If it were not for the support of my FAMILY and friends she would be dead I'm sure of it, and maybe me as well.

jj your a good friend just do what you can to help her and yes she needs help as well as the daughter. There may be another family member her daughter will trust. It is a gut wrenching time getting her off the streets is the first step.

My daughter will be 40 at the end of the month they do eventually growup. :-4

Fromj the sounds of it I would also say her drug use has gone past a little POT.

Your words struck a chord with me ... unfortunately, I don't have any family that I can talk to....I have a sister in Spain who I e mail a lot and she phones me from time to time if I really need to talk... my dad is useless - doesn't understand at all and berates my daughter all the time, my brother - again - useless! I also have three other sisters - one in Australia, one in Scotland and another I haven't spoken to in over a year... so I can't really relate to any of them. My mother died four years ago - she wasn't particularly pleasant to my daughter and I blame my mother for a lot of her problems! Friends..?? hhmmm... yes I have my dear friend Jj ... he's been a rock, but apart from that - none I can really talk to about such things.

From the sounds of it I would also say her drug use has gone past a little POT.

Oohh yes.. she's on anything she can get her hands on!!

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:14 am

'[love wrote: light;814004']Of course, I don't know the whole situation, but this child need to be put under lock and key. Why is she going out every night if she is having such problems? What punishments has she recieved for not doing her chores for the dog? I'm not saying tough love is what she needs.

I went through a similar thing when I was her age. I had some major daddy issues. My mom cracked down on me with love and put my azz in therapy. We also sat down and had some major heart to hearts where she cried and told me how my actions hurt her. She got my teachers involved, as well.

The result? I felt cared about and protected. I respected my mother more, and didn't want to do anything to hurt her. It wasn't, afterall, her I was angry with.

If that was the answer, then I'd certainly do it! I grounded her 6 months ago and she ran away from home, stayed with a family that had no idea that their house was a 'drug den' and my daughter was stoned out of her mind for over a week, until I got social services on the case and they brought her home!

She will do that same again... at least at the moment, I know that she is coming home, ( I never give her permission to sleep out and she has to be home by 10pm) and is careful about what she's taking as she knows that I'm looking out for any signs of drug use when she gets home! But yes... I know what you're saying -

I wish I could lock her away and everything would turn out hunky dory... not as easy as that, I'm afraid! I threatened to get rid of her dog.. told her that someone was going to take him... and she promised that she'd do more in future if I'd reconsider and give her another chance! so far - so good... but she needs a reminder now and again.

I don't give her money to take out with her as I know she'll spend it on drugs.... although I was advised by the drug agency that I should give her money so that she wouldn't have to 'provide sexual favours' in return for drugs!! I was appalled at their suggestion - surely that would mean that I'm encouraging her.. and encouraging her to take MORE drugs!!!

I went through a similar thing when I was her age. I had some major daddy issues. My mom cracked down on me with love and put my azz in therapy. We also sat down and had some major heart to hearts where she cried and told me how my actions hurt her. She got my teachers involved, as well. The result? I felt cared about and protected. I respected my mother more, and didn't want to do anything to hurt her. It wasn't, afterall, her I was angry with.

Amelia has seen me cry so much in the last couple of months... I know it gets to her and she hates hurting me... and that's why I KNOW that she will continue to control her drug intake - she is careful, as she knows that I'm always looking out for signs and she tries to hide it. She adores me... and she knows I adore her.. but when she was at her worst with drugs - when she was away from home for a week... the drugs made her HATE me, she even said that she wanted to 'stab me up' - I was horrified! That wasn't my daughter... and months later, when she was free of drugs, she told me that she couldn't believe that she'd said that to me - that she actually WANTED to do that to me.. she admitted that it was the drugs......

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:18 am

cherandbuster;814128 wrote: Hi JSquared :-6

I work for a group of therapists and psychiatrists -- it's one of the largest practices around. And who do you think are the busiest professionals in the offce?

The child/teen therapists and psychiatrists. :-1

It seems that, like Koan said, a trusted adult is paramount to her recovery. There's got to be a 'connection', a 'trust' -- and some children have to try a few different therapists until they find one that fits those requirements.

Anyone considering psychiatric medication for the teenager? Maybe these behaviors -- the acting out, cutting, illegal drugs -- are her way of 'self-medicating'.

Sending only my very best you your dear friend and family, JJ :-6

Amelia has quite a large network of support at the moment - counselling, drugs workers, social Services, anti depressants (which I'm concerned about the effects of now that she's back on drugs). She's had constant support from a trusted mentor at school for the last year and a half... but I'm concerned that Amelia actually THRIVES on the attention she's getting and sometimes exagerates (sp?) her behaviour and her feelings!! I personally think that Amelia has some kind of 'attention seeking disorder' - she's very loud (always has been) and I recall so many incidences in the past when she's purposefully said things in front of strangers to grab attention and to shock.

For as long as I can remember she has been disruptive in school and even her peers are sick of her constant attention seeking behaviour - hence, she gets bullied a lot and is very unpopular at school. She's very quick witted and funny.... but she takes it too far and eventually, people quickly get sick of her - she doesn't know when to stop! At one stage I thought she was suffering from Aspergers syndrome...ooh ... I dunno - it's late and I'm at a loss!

Post by **jones jones** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:20 am

this from my friend to those she wasn't able to respond to induvidually ...

thank you so much to everyone for their kinds words and support ...

Imladris · Post by **Imladris** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:24 pm

Just seen this thread JJ.

I find the most recent comments from your friend about her daughter being attention seeking very interesting, had a similar thing from my oldest step-daughter, she was going off the rails and we were referred for family counselling, we went once, she got a huge buzz from the hell she was putting us through - it was written all over her face during the session! I refused to go again, to me it was validating her behaviour - giving her a reason to keep being a cow and eventually that aspect of her problems settled down.

I think we have big problems with our social services in this country - too worried about being seen to be pc than actually tackling problems, especially when it comes to young people. You have to hit rock bottom before anyone actually listens.

It's so tough for your friend - she can't ignore her daughter's behaviour, but at the same time too much attention is reinforcing her actions.

She needs to get support for herself too, she'll be no good if she crumbles. It seems to me that the only way to get help is to make a nuisance of yourself, keep badgering the people that can help, seek publicity if all else fails, shame them into providing the services that should be offered in the first place.

I wish them both well.