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QUINNSCOMMENTARY
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Post by QUINNSCOMMENTARY »

How easy it is to solve the problems of the world, just announce it.

Speaking in Michigan (coincidentally) today Sen. Obama outlined his energy plan.

No more oil imports from the Middle East or Venezuela within ten years.

$150,000,000,000 invested over ten years in alternate energy sources (other than nuclear or oil). Subsidies for the auto industry to build electric cars and a $7,000 tax credit if you buy one.

You know if those cars work and meet people’s needs and are more efficient why wouldn’t buy one, why does the government need to give away tax money to get you to buy one. After all Americans lapped up the SUVs counter to any logical decision making in many cases. But we are in Michigan, remember, and the good Senator says those cars will all be built in America. But does than mean Americans will buy American made electric cars if the Japanese ones are better? Glance at the cars in a parking lot and you will find the answer.

But there is a larger issue on all this oil stuff. If we get no more oil from the Middle East, what happens to the Middle East? Do we care; do we abandon the Middle East? Do we care anymore about Israel? After all, many people say it’s all about the oil. If we don’t care about the Middle East, who does, who fills the void, China perhaps? :-2

It all sounds good on the campaign trail, just like McCain’s push for nuclear energy (that will also take ten years to expand), but even in the unlikely event we achieve all of this, there are many unintended consequences. Who do you think has been shoring up the financial markets in the US and who do you think invests in America and buys American debt (with oil dollars)? The countries of the Middle East, that’s who. :-5

It’s all water under the bridge now, but shouldn’t Americans be mad as hell at this and many past Congress’s for not creating and supporting an energy policy twenty-years ago? :mad::mad:
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Post by spot »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;941134 wrote: But there is a larger issue on all this oil stuff. If we get no more oil from the Middle East, what happens to the Middle East? Do we care; do we abandon the Middle East? Do we care anymore about Israel? After all, many people say it’s all about the oil.This may be again a naive question but what does US support for Israel have to do with whether or not the US imports oil from the Middle East? Other than that the oil and Israel are both physically located there? Israel produces none, US payments for oil go to the Arab countries not Israel. The money going to Israel is gifted, not spent, half from taxation and half from private charities, all of it with no return as far as I can see. Or have I missed the humour again?
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Post by QUINNSCOMMENTARY »

spot;941162 wrote: This may be again a naive question but what does US support for Israel have to do with whether or not the US imports oil from the Middle East? Other than that the oil and Israel are both physically located there? Israel produces none, US payments for oil go to the Arab countries not Israel. The money going to Israel is gifted, not spent, half from taxation and half from private charities, all of it with no return as far as I can see. Or have I missed the humour again?


The last time I looked Isreal was in the Middle East and the US was keeping the balance of power, sort of, buying off some Arab states, providing a balance of weapons to various countries even giving substiantial aid to Egypt and others. So, if the US no longer cares about the oil, does it still care about those countries and why?
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw



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Post by spot »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;941166 wrote: The last time I looked Isreal was in the Middle East and the US was keeping the balance of power, sort of, buying off some Arab states, providing a balance of weapons to various countries even giving substiantial aid to Egypt and others. So, if the US no longer cares about the oil, does it still care about those countries and why?


Those countries being the oil suppliers? The Arab countries? No, probably not. Their citizens will heave a sigh of relief too, I can tell you.

What does that have to do with Israel?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Post by Odie »

I know this is off topic, but I have worked for automobile dealerships for years.

Your offered a free gift when you buy a car, now at some dealerships the gift is X amount of dollars for gas!

Just so you know, there is no such thing as that free gift, its all put into the contract and you won't see it listed.

It is the same everywhere, even the Brick offers a free t.v, well, its not free, you are paying for it.

I usually go elsewhere when they advertise free gifts/prizes, the product is cheaper.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Odie;941201 wrote: I know this is off topic, but I have worked for automobile dealerships for years.

Your offered a free gift when you buy a car, now at some dealerships the gift is X amount of dollars for gas!

Just so you know, there is no such thing as that free gift, its all put into the contract and you won't see it listed.

It is the same everywhere, even the Brick offers a free t.v, well, its not free, you are paying for it.

I usually go elsewhere when they advertise free gifts/prizes, the product is cheaper.


Assign it a value and include it in the cost to upgrade - when so many do it you might be missing the best deal by automatically ignoring them.
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Post by Odie »

but why pay for something I don't need?
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Odie;941318 wrote: but why pay for something I don't need?


The less you need it the less value you assign to it - even if it is of zero value to you it is still worth considering the resultant cost to upgrade.
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Post by Odie »

sorry, I hate come-ons with stores.

If you cannot sell something without adding in a free prize, then you cannot sell.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Odie;941431 wrote: sorry, I hate come-ons with stores.

If you cannot sell something without adding in a free prize, then you cannot sell.


Fair enough.
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Post by Snidely Whiplash »

We need to go after every energy source avaliable, every alternative energy and incorporate them into our lives where ever they work best... We also need to keep drilling, to maintain things until the alternatives actually can replace them, which definately they can't do right now on a large scale....

As for electric cars...... Most people think they will run on "clean energy"...? But the heart of any electric car is a large bank of big batteries, which will only last a few years then will have to be replaced with new ones.... These batteries are filled with very toxic chemicals, most probably with sulfuric acid and lots of lead....

Just like those so-called environmentally friendly compact fluorecsent light bulbs were filled with toxic amounts of mercury, which are polluting our waters now, what do the greenies want us to do with all those old car batteries from the electric cars that will start piling up in mountains when cars go electric...???

Or will they protest those too, and try to get them banned....???

:)
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Snidely Whiplash;955503 wrote: We need to go after every energy source avaliable, every alternative energy and incorporate them into our lives where ever they work best... We also need to keep drilling, to maintain things until the alternatives actually can replace them, which definately they can't do right now on a large scale....

As for electric cars...... Most people think they will run on "clean energy"...? But the heart of any electric car is a large bank of big batteries, which will only last a few years then will have to be replaced with new ones.... These batteries are filled with very toxic chemicals, most probably with sulfuric acid and lots of lead....

Just like those so-called environmentally friendly compact fluorecsent light bulbs were filled with toxic amounts of mercury, which are polluting our waters now, what do the greenies want us to do with all those old car batteries from the electric cars that will start piling up in mountains when cars go electric...???

Or will they protest those too, and try to get them banned....???

:)


Electric cars working from lead acid batteries are not a practical proposition - it they were they'd be on the road by now. The delay is due to the need to develop new power sources.

For as long as the power source in the car is a storage battery all you are doing is centralising the source of pollution. Once you move to generating the power in-car then the level of pollution is totally dependent on the method of generation.
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Post by Snidely Whiplash »

Bryn Mawr;955516 wrote: Electric cars working from lead acid batteries are not a practical proposition - it they were they'd be on the road by now. The delay is due to the need to develop new power sources.

For as long as the power source in the car is a storage battery all you are doing is centralising the source of pollution. Once you move to generating the power in-car then the level of pollution is totally dependent on the method of generation.


You are probably 100% right...

But there are NO alternative forms of energy that we can use right now instead of oil, gasoline and natural gas, nothing is ready for a transition....

And for the record, there is no environmentally friendly energy source, none.... Solar, wind, hydrogen, biofuel, etc, they all require almost as large of an energy source to produce, as they replace........ Nuclear energy is the exception, it's CO2 free, and produces the smallest amount of waste, that can be stored in a safe and long term way, much of the modern world is already doing it.. But the greenies say no and block every attempt with law suits and protests, and have the politicians in they're pckets from big money contributions... It's a sad prospect to get ourselves out of this mess...

For the next 20-50 years, theres nothing but oil in our energy future, and we all better stop fanticising about the romantic idea of alternatives, because they aren't there, theres no infastructure to support them in our daily lives, and our government from being in the pocket of the radical environmental movement is against any type of energy at all, so no progress will be made in any area, except as always from the private sector which is working on these energy problems all the time, but are demonized for making money doing they're jobs and creating the next generation of our way of life........

Bryan is right...
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Snidely Whiplash;961262 wrote: You are probably 100% right...

But there are NO alternative forms of energy that we can use right now instead of oil, gasoline and natural gas, nothing is ready for a transition....

And for the record, there is no environmentally friendly energy source, none.... Solar, wind, hydrogen, biofuel, etc, they all require almost as large of an energy source to produce, as they replace........ Nuclear energy is the exception, it's CO2 free, and produces the smallest amount of waste, that can be stored in a safe and long term way, much of the modern world is already doing it.. But the greenies say no and block every attempt with law suits and protests, and have the politicians in they're pckets from big money contributions... It's a sad prospect to get ourselves out of this mess...

For the next 20-50 years, theres nothing but oil in our energy future, and we all better stop fanticising about the romantic idea of alternatives, because they aren't there, theres no infastructure to support them in our daily lives, and our government from being in the pocket of the radical environmental movement is against any type of energy at all, so no progress will be made in any area, except as always from the private sector which is working on these energy problems all the time, but are demonized for making money doing they're jobs and creating the next generation of our way of life........

Bryan is right...


Short to medium term the only possible move is to fission with the hope of developing fusion as a viable replacement.

It would be good to get geothermal generation going in an efficient and cost effective way but it's not there yet.

Yes, we can up the use of renewables to about a third of total requirement but much beyond that is impractical.
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Post by southern yankee »

Odie;941431 wrote: sorry, I hate come-ons with stores.

If you cannot sell something without adding in a free prize, then you cannot sell. ODIE you are right there is nothing free anymore. EVERYTHING has a catch or a gimmic.
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Post by Odie »

southern yankee;963557 wrote: ODIE you are right there is nothing free anymore. EVERYTHING has a catch or a gimmic.


trust me, those free prizes are included in what you pay for the item............its all fit into the computer by the manufacturer, and cannot be taken out, but you don`t see it on your bill.



been there..............this is how I know.:-5

thing is for most, the gimmics work!:rolleyes:
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Post by southern yankee »

Odie;963579 wrote: trust me, those free prizes are included in what you pay for the item............its all fit into the computer by the manufacturer, and cannot be taken out, but you don`t see it on your bill.



been there..............this is how I know.:-5

thing is for most, the gimmics work!:rolleyes:
human nature to want something for nothing. I have heard they are useing this method. to find Bail jumpers. telling them they have won this SUPER PRIZE. the PRIZE a trip to jail. not first class either:wah:
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Post by Odie »

southern yankee;963581 wrote: human nature to want something for nothing. I have heard they are useing this method. to find Bail jumpers. telling them they have won this SUPER PRIZE. the PRIZE a trip to jail. not first class either:wah:


tis human nature, we all would like something free.

years ago, I had entered a contest for a trip to Florida, a guy called, they were dolphins in the background...............I should have know then!

He went on to say I had won, but then had to pay for various other things.:wah:
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Post by Odie »

but I had also won a contest from HGTV, now that was free and awesome!
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Post by southern yankee »

Odie;963584 wrote: but I had also won a contest from HGTV, now that was free and awesome! what was it???
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Post by gmc »

Snidely Whiplash;961262 wrote: You are probably 100% right...

But there are NO alternative forms of energy that we can use right now instead of oil, gasoline and natural gas, nothing is ready for a transition....

And for the record, there is no environmentally friendly energy source, none.... Solar, wind, hydrogen, biofuel, etc, they all require almost as large of an energy source to produce, as they replace........ Nuclear energy is the exception, it's CO2 free, and produces the smallest amount of waste, that can be stored in a safe and long term way, much of the modern world is already doing it.. But the greenies say no and block every attempt with law suits and protests, and have the politicians in they're pckets from big money contributions... It's a sad prospect to get ourselves out of this mess...

For the next 20-50 years, theres nothing but oil in our energy future, and we all better stop fanticising about the romantic idea of alternatives, because they aren't there, theres no infastructure to support them in our daily lives, and our government from being in the pocket of the radical environmental movement is against any type of energy at all, so no progress will be made in any area, except as always from the private sector which is working on these energy problems all the time, but are demonized for making money doing they're jobs and creating the next generation of our way of life........

Bryan is right...


What about hydro electric power? Once the capital cost is paid it's relatively environmentally friendly. Course the coming drought in the US will probably make that impractical.

Don't worry about it so much. The rest of the world will probably come up with the solution while the US is still navel gazing feeling sorry for itself wondering what happened. Even as we speak there is probably someone in his garden shed somewhere working on the answer.
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Post by K.Snyder »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;941134 wrote:

It’s all water under the bridge now, but shouldn’t Americans be mad as hell at this and many past Congress’s for not creating and supporting an energy policy twenty-years ago? :mad::mad:


20 years ago?...Enough's not being done now.
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Post by Snidely Whiplash »

Bryn Mawr;963434 wrote: Short to medium term the only possible move is to fission with the hope of developing fusion as a viable replacement.

It would be good to get geothermal generation going in an efficient and cost effective way but it's not there yet.

Yes, we can up the use of renewables to about a third of total requirement but much beyond that is impractical.


I 100% agree..!!

I don't really understand the fission / fussion thing though..? That seems even further off in the future than solar, wind, etc......?

I think natural gas is probably the next logical step to replacing gasoline... Only because most all of the existing cars, trucks(lori's), farm machinery, trains, ships, etc can be converted to that easily.... Electric really isn't an option, nor anything else right now...?
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Post by gmc »

Snidely Whiplash;964698 wrote: I 100% agree..!!

I don't really understand the fission / fussion thing though..? That seems even further off in the future than solar, wind, etc......?

I think natural gas is probably the next logical step to replacing gasoline... Only because most all of the existing cars, trucks(lori's), farm machinery, trains, ships, etc can be converted to that easily.... Electric really isn't an option, nor anything else right now...?


Too bad natural gas is a finite resource-bit like oil. Besides we need it for heating and cooking. What do you use in america instead of gas? We've shut all the coal mines so making gas from coal is a bit of a non starter at the moment.
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Post by Snidely Whiplash »

gmc;964722 wrote: Too bad natural gas is a finite resource-bit like oil. Besides we need it for heating and cooking. What do you use in america instead of gas? We've shut all the coal mines so making gas from coal is a bit of a non starter at the moment.


Some bus systems in some cities are using natural gas, and I think a select few are even running on those hydrogen fuel cells, but that seems more of a novelty than practical since the only vehicles I've noticed running on hydrogen are covered with big graphics and advertisments telling everyone what they run on, so they look more like prototypes than anything else...

Most cars and trucks can have a conversion kit installed that will switch them from gasoline to propane or LP gas, and I think it's just a matter of using different sized jets in the intake to allow them to use natural gas...

I drove a forklift with a standard 4 cyl engine running on propane 6 hours a day for years inside a closed warehouse building with no ventilation, and exaust fumes and pollution were never an issue... Natural gas and propane burn so clean that you litterally can stick your face into the exaust coming from the engine and theres little smell at all, and virtually no smoke or visible polutants...

The only other alternative vehicles here right now are some hybrids, but my gasoline powered little Honda Fit gets about as good of milage as some of those larger hybrids do...
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Post by Odie »

southern yankee;963619 wrote: what was it???


I won second place from HGTV, I had a professional designer here for 2 hours, the suggestions she gave me were awesome.

- I had also won 500.00 of C.I.L paint, so she had designed my kitchen, hallway, living and dining room with paint suggestions and swatches.

-Then I had also won 2 painters to come in and paint every room with the colours she had chosen!

She also did a design on our dining room wall, using all three colours of paint chosen for the rooms and she clothed out a design first using plaster to make the design, covered it in the three colours plus a glaze.........it looks unbeilable!



Never imagined even winning!
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Post by gmc »

Snidely Whiplash;964914 wrote: Some bus systems in some cities are using natural gas, and I think a select few are even running on those hydrogen fuel cells, but that seems more of a novelty than practical since the only vehicles I've noticed running on hydrogen are covered with big graphics and advertisments telling everyone what they run on, so they look more like prototypes than anything else...

Most cars and trucks can have a conversion kit installed that will switch them from gasoline to propane or LP gas, and I think it's just a matter of using different sized jets in the intake to allow them to use natural gas...

I drove a forklift with a standard 4 cyl engine running on propane 6 hours a day for years inside a closed warehouse building with no ventilation, and exaust fumes and pollution were never an issue... Natural gas and propane burn so clean that you litterally can stick your face into the exaust coming from the engine and theres little smell at all, and virtually no smoke or visible polutants...

The only other alternative vehicles here right now are some hybrids, but my gasoline powered little Honda Fit gets about as good of milage as some of those larger hybrids do...


What do you think propane is made from? It's a by product of oil and natural gas refining both of which are running out. There are more important things ti use oil for than fuel our cars-just have look round your house and imagine a world without plastics.
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