xara;1389670 wrote: So to be English you must forego your culturalheritage and adopt the English one.
So.. if your have an Asian man who waves the English flag, eats Fish and Chips and watches the Football whilst supporting England.. he is English
BUT
if the same man were to wave the flag of the country of his origin, eat samosas, watches the IPL and supports his country of origin.. he is not English
In both cases the fact said person was born in England is irrelevant.
That would be a good starter for ten.
Are Black people English?
Are Black people English?
English people have blue eyes.
Om namo bagavate vasudevaya, " God is the Cause of All causes."
Are Black people English?
Why couldn't it be as simple as: If you speak the Queens english as your primary or first language then you are English.
Are Black people English?
rajakrsna;1389709 wrote: English people have blue eyes.
Black people have black eyes ( Africans ). My grandson Max have brown eyes ( Polish-Filipino ).
Black people have black eyes ( Africans ). My grandson Max have brown eyes ( Polish-Filipino ).
Om namo bagavate vasudevaya, " God is the Cause of All causes."
Are Black people English?
Betty Boop;1389675 wrote: It should be as simple as, if you were born in England then you are considered English, but it's never that simple is it.
For instance in a general conversation if the subject comes up how many people just claim to be English or British? They will always state where their parents were born and maybe also their Grandparents. It always seems important to state how deeply you could be English, which at the end of the day isn't really important.
Interestingly, I am fiercely Cornish, not British, not English, but Cornish. Both my parents were born in Cornwall, I used to think I wasn't quite fully Cornish as some grandparents were born in Newcastle, but it turns out their parentage was originally Cornish. Also turns out my Grandfather was born in South Africa to Cornish parents, does that make me African? I think not...
I can see the flaws, I don't think it's important to trace people back to see their true Englishness to prove something, yet I was pleased to find out I'm more Cornish that I had originally thought :-2
I note you refer to Cornwall rather than Kernow. Are you Cornish to the extent of flying the Baner Peran and agitating for national independence?
For instance in a general conversation if the subject comes up how many people just claim to be English or British? They will always state where their parents were born and maybe also their Grandparents. It always seems important to state how deeply you could be English, which at the end of the day isn't really important.
Interestingly, I am fiercely Cornish, not British, not English, but Cornish. Both my parents were born in Cornwall, I used to think I wasn't quite fully Cornish as some grandparents were born in Newcastle, but it turns out their parentage was originally Cornish. Also turns out my Grandfather was born in South Africa to Cornish parents, does that make me African? I think not...
I can see the flaws, I don't think it's important to trace people back to see their true Englishness to prove something, yet I was pleased to find out I'm more Cornish that I had originally thought :-2
I note you refer to Cornwall rather than Kernow. Are you Cornish to the extent of flying the Baner Peran and agitating for national independence?
Are Black people English?
rajakrsna;1389711 wrote: Black people have black eyes ( Africans ). My grandson Max have brown eyes ( Polish-Filipino ).
Correction please,
All English people do not have blue eyes. Many of them have brown and hazel/green eyes as well.
That a race can be determine by simply looking at their IRISES?
Correction please,
All English people do not have blue eyes. Many of them have brown and hazel/green eyes as well.
That a race can be determine by simply looking at their IRISES?
Om namo bagavate vasudevaya, " God is the Cause of All causes."
Are Black people English?
xara;1389676 wrote: What if the person was on benefits in England but waving a Welsh flag?
I hardly think it would be as insulting as someone waving a non-Western flag.
The benefits are not English benefits but UK wide so what would be the problem?
Your OP was very specifically about Englishness rather than Britishness which would have been a different conversation given the association of the former with the right wing mindset.
I hardly think it would be as insulting as someone waving a non-Western flag.
The benefits are not English benefits but UK wide so what would be the problem?
Your OP was very specifically about Englishness rather than Britishness which would have been a different conversation given the association of the former with the right wing mindset.
Are Black people English?
You can never tell if one is British, or English unless you look at the color and condition of their irises. This science is called Iridology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iridology
Iridologists use the charts to distinguish between healthy systems and organs in the body and those that are overactive, inflamed, or distressed. Iridologists believe this information demonstrates a patient's susceptibility towards certain illnesses, reflects past medical problems, or predicts later health problems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iridology
Iridologists use the charts to distinguish between healthy systems and organs in the body and those that are overactive, inflamed, or distressed. Iridologists believe this information demonstrates a patient's susceptibility towards certain illnesses, reflects past medical problems, or predicts later health problems.
Om namo bagavate vasudevaya, " God is the Cause of All causes."
Are Black people English?
rajakrsna;1389716 wrote: You can never tell if one is British, or English unless you look at the color and condition of their irises. This science is called Iridology.
Iridology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Iridologists use the charts to distinguish between healthy systems and organs in the body and those that are overactive, inflamed, or distressed. Iridologists believe this information demonstrates a patient's susceptibility towards certain illnesses, reflects past medical problems, or predicts later health problems.
The second paragraph I can understand but, given the genetic variety within those considered to be native, how can the first be true?
Iridology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Iridologists use the charts to distinguish between healthy systems and organs in the body and those that are overactive, inflamed, or distressed. Iridologists believe this information demonstrates a patient's susceptibility towards certain illnesses, reflects past medical problems, or predicts later health problems.
The second paragraph I can understand but, given the genetic variety within those considered to be native, how can the first be true?
Are Black people English?
xara;1389680 wrote: After 8 pages. I have still not come across a definition.
I find it enlightening to mirror questions like this one. At what stage does a person emigrating from England cease to be English. If it's to Australia or New Zealand, for example, it might be a matter of years. If it's to Spain then I suggest that person will go to his or her grave self-identifying as English rather than Spanish.
I'll attempt a definition of who's English when my ideas make sense.
I find it enlightening to mirror questions like this one. At what stage does a person emigrating from England cease to be English. If it's to Australia or New Zealand, for example, it might be a matter of years. If it's to Spain then I suggest that person will go to his or her grave self-identifying as English rather than Spanish.
I'll attempt a definition of who's English when my ideas make sense.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Are Black people English?
Bryn Mawr;1389715 wrote: The benefits are not English benefits but UK wide so what would be the problem?
Your OP was very specifically about Englishness rather than Britishness which would have been a different conversation given the association of the former with the right wing mindset.
It wasn't about the benefits it's about loyalty to another country.
Yes the Welsh are British but they aren't English. If they are in England and waving their countrys flag they obviously feel a loyalty to Wales not England.
No one would bat an eyelid at them waving their flag but if a person waves a Saudi flag or a Pakistani flag they are seen as 'not English' 'Disloyal' and 'If they don't like it here why are they here'.
Your OP was very specifically about Englishness rather than Britishness which would have been a different conversation given the association of the former with the right wing mindset.
It wasn't about the benefits it's about loyalty to another country.
Yes the Welsh are British but they aren't English. If they are in England and waving their countrys flag they obviously feel a loyalty to Wales not England.
No one would bat an eyelid at them waving their flag but if a person waves a Saudi flag or a Pakistani flag they are seen as 'not English' 'Disloyal' and 'If they don't like it here why are they here'.
Are Black people English?
Bryn Mawr;1389702 wrote: I think it is much less specific than that, you're no less English for being agnostic for example, and it is an area where our values have changed over the centuries.
Since the troubles in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries I think we've been coming to a realisation that strict insistence on a single state religion is destructive. Moving from the absolute persecution of the Lollards as heretics and then the persecution of the Catholics as traitors to the acceptance of the non-conformists, Huguenots and subsequently the Jews and the re-integration of the Catholics (over most of the country) led fairly painlessly to an acceptance of Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims within the society - it is only the recent daemonisation of Islam that has caused any Muslim to be treated as pariah. Don't get me wrong, racism has existed for a long time but racism existed despite the religion, not because of it.
You didn't answer the question. What are the core English values?
Since the troubles in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries I think we've been coming to a realisation that strict insistence on a single state religion is destructive. Moving from the absolute persecution of the Lollards as heretics and then the persecution of the Catholics as traitors to the acceptance of the non-conformists, Huguenots and subsequently the Jews and the re-integration of the Catholics (over most of the country) led fairly painlessly to an acceptance of Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims within the society - it is only the recent daemonisation of Islam that has caused any Muslim to be treated as pariah. Don't get me wrong, racism has existed for a long time but racism existed despite the religion, not because of it.
You didn't answer the question. What are the core English values?
Are Black people English?
xara;1389719 wrote: It wasn't about the benefits it's about loyalty to another country.
Yes the Welsh are British but they aren't English. If they are in England and waving their countrys flag they obviously feel a loyalty to Wales not England.
No one would bat an eyelid at them waving their flag but if a person waves a Saudi flag or a Pakistani flag they are seen as 'not English' 'Disloyal' and 'If they don't like it here why are they here'.
Firstly they are two totally different questions, a Welshman in England is not showing disloyalty to his country, the UK - he's just a wind up merchant showing sibling rivalry.
Secondly, I've seen many hundred British nationals waving Indian flags to the disparagement of England and no one batting an eyelash, never mind telling them to go home - it's called a test match.
During the last football World Cup I saw dozens of England flags flying outside flats I know to be occupied by ethnic minorities who were firmly behind the England team but asking a person of Indian descent not to back their beloved team is not a matter of being English, it's a matter of conditioning since infancy. Would a Geordie living in London back Spurs?
To desensitise matters slightly, a short remove from where I grew up was a Polish enclave, mostly families who had moved here before or during WWII. When the opportunity arose some of the children from these families (many of whom I'd gone to school with) went "home" whilst others would not even have considered it because they were already home. None of them were being disloyal to this country.
Yes the Welsh are British but they aren't English. If they are in England and waving their countrys flag they obviously feel a loyalty to Wales not England.
No one would bat an eyelid at them waving their flag but if a person waves a Saudi flag or a Pakistani flag they are seen as 'not English' 'Disloyal' and 'If they don't like it here why are they here'.
Firstly they are two totally different questions, a Welshman in England is not showing disloyalty to his country, the UK - he's just a wind up merchant showing sibling rivalry.
Secondly, I've seen many hundred British nationals waving Indian flags to the disparagement of England and no one batting an eyelash, never mind telling them to go home - it's called a test match.
During the last football World Cup I saw dozens of England flags flying outside flats I know to be occupied by ethnic minorities who were firmly behind the England team but asking a person of Indian descent not to back their beloved team is not a matter of being English, it's a matter of conditioning since infancy. Would a Geordie living in London back Spurs?
To desensitise matters slightly, a short remove from where I grew up was a Polish enclave, mostly families who had moved here before or during WWII. When the opportunity arose some of the children from these families (many of whom I'd gone to school with) went "home" whilst others would not even have considered it because they were already home. None of them were being disloyal to this country.
Are Black people English?
xara;1389728 wrote: You didn't answer the question. What are the core English values?
If I could formulate that into a meaningful statement I'd be the wonder of the age - I'm not convinced that it's definable any more than the question "what is life" can be answered.
If I could formulate that into a meaningful statement I'd be the wonder of the age - I'm not convinced that it's definable any more than the question "what is life" can be answered.
Are Black people English?
Bryn Mawr;1389702 wrote: I think it is much less specific than that, you're no less English for being agnostic for example, and it is an area where our values have changed over the centuries.
Since the troubles in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries I think we've been coming to a realisation that strict insistence on a single state religion is destructive. Moving from the absolute persecution of the Lollards as heretics and then the persecution of the Catholics as traitors to the acceptance of the non-conformists, Huguenots and subsequently the Jews and the re-integration of the Catholics (over most of the country) led fairly painlessly to an acceptance of Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims within the society - it is only the recent daemonisation of Islam that has caused any Muslim to be treated as pariah. Don't get me wrong, racism has existed for a long time but racism existed despite the religion, not because of it.
Bryn Mawr;1389730 wrote: Firstly they are two totally different questions, a Welshman in England is not showing disloyalty to his country, the UK - he's just a wind up merchant showing sibling rivalry.
Secondly, I've seen many hundred British nationals waving Indian flags to the disparagement of England and no one batting an eyelash, never mind telling them to go home - it's called a test match.
During the last football World Cup I saw dozens of England flags flying outside flats I know to be occupied by ethnic minorities who were firmly behind the England team but asking a person of Indian descent not to back their beloved team is not a matter of being English, it's a matter of conditioning since infancy. Would a Geordie living in London back Spurs?
To desensitise matters slightly, a short remove from where I grew up was a Polish enclave, mostly families who had moved here before or during WWII. When the opportunity arose some of the children from these families (many of whom I'd gone to school with) went "home" whilst others would not even have considered it because they were already home. None of them were being disloyal to this country.
My question was regarding England the country not UK the country.
If you called a Welshman, Scotsman and Irishman 'English' I don't think they would be too pleased.
That's your view but not one shared by others especially since immigration is such a hot topic nowadays - the fact is there are people who think to be English is to back England. Anything else flies in the face of it.
Since the troubles in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries I think we've been coming to a realisation that strict insistence on a single state religion is destructive. Moving from the absolute persecution of the Lollards as heretics and then the persecution of the Catholics as traitors to the acceptance of the non-conformists, Huguenots and subsequently the Jews and the re-integration of the Catholics (over most of the country) led fairly painlessly to an acceptance of Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims within the society - it is only the recent daemonisation of Islam that has caused any Muslim to be treated as pariah. Don't get me wrong, racism has existed for a long time but racism existed despite the religion, not because of it.
Bryn Mawr;1389730 wrote: Firstly they are two totally different questions, a Welshman in England is not showing disloyalty to his country, the UK - he's just a wind up merchant showing sibling rivalry.
Secondly, I've seen many hundred British nationals waving Indian flags to the disparagement of England and no one batting an eyelash, never mind telling them to go home - it's called a test match.
During the last football World Cup I saw dozens of England flags flying outside flats I know to be occupied by ethnic minorities who were firmly behind the England team but asking a person of Indian descent not to back their beloved team is not a matter of being English, it's a matter of conditioning since infancy. Would a Geordie living in London back Spurs?
To desensitise matters slightly, a short remove from where I grew up was a Polish enclave, mostly families who had moved here before or during WWII. When the opportunity arose some of the children from these families (many of whom I'd gone to school with) went "home" whilst others would not even have considered it because they were already home. None of them were being disloyal to this country.
My question was regarding England the country not UK the country.
If you called a Welshman, Scotsman and Irishman 'English' I don't think they would be too pleased.
That's your view but not one shared by others especially since immigration is such a hot topic nowadays - the fact is there are people who think to be English is to back England. Anything else flies in the face of it.
Are Black people English?
Bryn Mawr;1389731 wrote: If I could formulate that into a meaningful statement I'd be the wonder of the age - I'm not convinced that it's definable any more than the question "what is life" can be answered.
If you cannot define it how can you say who is English and who is not.
You could say everyone is English because they live in England regardless of ethnicity/religion etc. or by the same token no one is because they are all mixed Anglo-Saxons/Vikings etc.
If you cannot define it how can you say who is English and who is not.
You could say everyone is English because they live in England regardless of ethnicity/religion etc. or by the same token no one is because they are all mixed Anglo-Saxons/Vikings etc.
Are Black people English?
xara;1389696 wrote: Not the pejorative it once was? I bet it wasn't an Asian person who told you that.
I am suitably admonished and cowed by your vehemence.
What you say is correct.
None the less I can assure you that no malice is intended when commonly used by many people these days in their ignorance.
I have a friend like you. Could not hurt a fly, she is the sweetest person you could meet.
I wouldn't hurt a fly either...........unless it sat on my poppadom.
I am suitably admonished and cowed by your vehemence.
What you say is correct.
None the less I can assure you that no malice is intended when commonly used by many people these days in their ignorance.
I have a friend like you. Could not hurt a fly, she is the sweetest person you could meet.
I wouldn't hurt a fly either...........unless it sat on my poppadom.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Are Black people English?
I need to know your point of view and why the definition of Englishness is so important to you.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Are Black people English?
xara;1389734 wrote: My question was regarding England the country not UK the country.
If you called a Welshman, Scotsman and Irishman 'English' I don't think they would be too pleased.
No, and if you called a Cornishwoman a Londoner then neither would she. Your question might have been phrased in terms of England but in the scenario you presented England was not relevant. The home countries are administrative districts as much as counties are - they have not been sovereign nations since the Act of Union in the eighteenth century, hence my likening it to sibling rivalry where brothers may squabble amongst themselves but turn and fight together against an outside enemy. That is vastly different to the core of this thread which related to outsiders being assimilated or otherwise into this country - a whole different discussion.
xara;1389734 wrote: That's your view but not one shared by others especially since immigration is such a hot topic nowadays - the fact is there are people who think to be English is to back England. Anything else flies in the face of it.
The fact is that there are people who think anyone who is not English are scum beneath their feet - I'm damn'd if I'll soil my mind giving any consideration to their peculiar notions.
If you called a Welshman, Scotsman and Irishman 'English' I don't think they would be too pleased.
No, and if you called a Cornishwoman a Londoner then neither would she. Your question might have been phrased in terms of England but in the scenario you presented England was not relevant. The home countries are administrative districts as much as counties are - they have not been sovereign nations since the Act of Union in the eighteenth century, hence my likening it to sibling rivalry where brothers may squabble amongst themselves but turn and fight together against an outside enemy. That is vastly different to the core of this thread which related to outsiders being assimilated or otherwise into this country - a whole different discussion.
xara;1389734 wrote: That's your view but not one shared by others especially since immigration is such a hot topic nowadays - the fact is there are people who think to be English is to back England. Anything else flies in the face of it.
The fact is that there are people who think anyone who is not English are scum beneath their feet - I'm damn'd if I'll soil my mind giving any consideration to their peculiar notions.
Are Black people English?
Bryn Mawr;1389743 wrote:
The fact is that there are people who think anyone who is not English are scum beneath their feet - I'm damn'd if I'll soil my mind giving any consideration to their peculiar notions.
It is unpleasant, but instead of dismissing their view I want to be able to counter their arguments, which is why I posed the question of 'Englishness or English'. In all the articles I read and all the documentaries I watch on Immigration, multi-culturism, diversity this comes up repeatedly without anyone giving a clear definition of what it is.
Is it not better to open the minds of the ignorant than letting them wallow in it?
The fact is that there are people who think anyone who is not English are scum beneath their feet - I'm damn'd if I'll soil my mind giving any consideration to their peculiar notions.
It is unpleasant, but instead of dismissing their view I want to be able to counter their arguments, which is why I posed the question of 'Englishness or English'. In all the articles I read and all the documentaries I watch on Immigration, multi-culturism, diversity this comes up repeatedly without anyone giving a clear definition of what it is.
Is it not better to open the minds of the ignorant than letting them wallow in it?
Are Black people English?
xara;1389747 wrote: It is unpleasant, but instead of dismissing their view I want to be able to counter their arguments, which is why I posed the question of 'Englishness or English'. In all the articles I read and all the documentaries I watch on Immigration, multi-culturism, diversity this comes up repeatedly without anyone giving a clear definition of what it is.
Is it not better to open the minds of the ignorant than letting them wallow in it?
Of course, though perhaps I wouldn't express it quite that way, it sounds rather arrogant.
What is your defintion?
Is it not better to open the minds of the ignorant than letting them wallow in it?
Of course, though perhaps I wouldn't express it quite that way, it sounds rather arrogant.
What is your defintion?
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
Are Black people English?
xara;1389735 wrote: If you cannot define it how can you say who is English and who is not.
You could say everyone is English because they live in England regardless of ethnicity/religion etc. or by the same token no one is because they are all mixed Anglo-Saxons/Vikings etc.
As I said, I cannot define what life is but I know it when I see it.
I would reject both of the extreme views you suggest, the English are those who've accepted England as their home and have adopted "Englishness" as their way of life.
You could say everyone is English because they live in England regardless of ethnicity/religion etc. or by the same token no one is because they are all mixed Anglo-Saxons/Vikings etc.
As I said, I cannot define what life is but I know it when I see it.
I would reject both of the extreme views you suggest, the English are those who've accepted England as their home and have adopted "Englishness" as their way of life.
Are Black people English?
xara;1389747 wrote:
Is it not better to open the minds of the ignorant than letting them wallow in it?
I am wallowing in ignorance about you.
Why don't you answer my questions about your origin and the need to know about Englishness ?
Unless you stand on my poppadom you will be safe.
Is it not better to open the minds of the ignorant than letting them wallow in it?
I am wallowing in ignorance about you.
Why don't you answer my questions about your origin and the need to know about Englishness ?
Unless you stand on my poppadom you will be safe.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Are Black people English?
theia;1389752 wrote:
Of course, though perhaps I wouldn't express it quite that way, it sounds rather arrogant.
My bad.
I live in a very diverse city and area and have friends from all races/religions/cultures. And when people are rude to them I can't just stand back.
What they do say is out of ignorance most of the time because they don't know any better or they don't know any people like that or they believe what they see or hear in the media. And it's just not fair to see people suffer especially when they are nice, friendly, good, law abiding citizens.
Of course, though perhaps I wouldn't express it quite that way, it sounds rather arrogant.
My bad.
I live in a very diverse city and area and have friends from all races/religions/cultures. And when people are rude to them I can't just stand back.
What they do say is out of ignorance most of the time because they don't know any better or they don't know any people like that or they believe what they see or hear in the media. And it's just not fair to see people suffer especially when they are nice, friendly, good, law abiding citizens.
Are Black people English?
Bruv;1389755 wrote: I am wallowing in ignorance about you.
Why don't you answer my questions about your origin and the need to know about Englishness ?
I don't want to sway any of the opinions.
And I've already said in a previous post about the 'need to know'
Why don't you answer my questions about your origin and the need to know about Englishness ?
I don't want to sway any of the opinions.
And I've already said in a previous post about the 'need to know'
Are Black people English?
Bryn Mawr;1389754 wrote:
the English are those who've accepted England as their home and have adopted "Englishness" as their way of life.
Even though you can't say what 'Englishness' actually is
the English are those who've accepted England as their home and have adopted "Englishness" as their way of life.
Even though you can't say what 'Englishness' actually is
Are Black people English?
xara;1389757 wrote: I don't want to sway any of the opinions.
And I've already said in a previous post about the 'need to know'
You don't want to sway any of the opinions ?
Well...............how are you going to change things then ?
We have all got wildly different views of who we are talking to, lay your cards on the table.
And I've already said in a previous post about the 'need to know'
You don't want to sway any of the opinions ?
Well...............how are you going to change things then ?
We have all got wildly different views of who we are talking to, lay your cards on the table.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Are Black people English?
xara;1389747 wrote: It is unpleasant, but instead of dismissing their view I want to be able to counter their arguments, which is why I posed the question of 'Englishness or English'. In all the articles I read and all the documentaries I watch on Immigration, multi-culturism, diversity this comes up repeatedly without anyone giving a clear definition of what it is.
Is it not better to open the minds of the ignorant than letting them wallow in it?
It would certainly be better to open their minds but, as a sweeping generalisation, they are the group I've found to have the greatest resistance to reason I've ever come across.
No one gives a definition of it because definitions are difficult thing to give - just when you think you've tied the concept down, dissected it and extracted the essence in a single pithy little statement, someone come up with an exception that blows your definition out of the water (as you can tell, I like my mixed metaphors). As a concept it is easy enough, like life, but as a definition it's a slippery little bu**er.
Is it not better to open the minds of the ignorant than letting them wallow in it?
It would certainly be better to open their minds but, as a sweeping generalisation, they are the group I've found to have the greatest resistance to reason I've ever come across.
No one gives a definition of it because definitions are difficult thing to give - just when you think you've tied the concept down, dissected it and extracted the essence in a single pithy little statement, someone come up with an exception that blows your definition out of the water (as you can tell, I like my mixed metaphors). As a concept it is easy enough, like life, but as a definition it's a slippery little bu**er.
Are Black people English?
it's a slippery little bu**er.
Last Tango in Paris ?
Last Tango in Paris ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Are Black people English?
xara;1389756 wrote: My bad.
I live in a very diverse city and area and have friends from all races/religions/cultures. And when people are rude to them I can't just stand back.
What they do say is out of ignorance most of the time because they don't know any better or they don't know any people like that or they believe what they see or hear in the media. And it's just not fair to see people suffer especially when they are nice, friendly, good, law abiding citizens.
That's a good thing to do but I think we have to be careful we don't overdo it and appear as their champions, and, in the process disempower them and/or patronise them.
I live in a very diverse city and area and have friends from all races/religions/cultures. And when people are rude to them I can't just stand back.
What they do say is out of ignorance most of the time because they don't know any better or they don't know any people like that or they believe what they see or hear in the media. And it's just not fair to see people suffer especially when they are nice, friendly, good, law abiding citizens.
That's a good thing to do but I think we have to be careful we don't overdo it and appear as their champions, and, in the process disempower them and/or patronise them.
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
Are Black people English?
xara;1389756 wrote: My bad.
I live in a very diverse city and area and have friends from all races/religions/cultures. And when people are rude to them I can't just stand back.
What they do say is out of ignorance most of the time because they don't know any better or they don't know any people like that or they believe what they see or hear in the media. And it's just not fair to see people suffer especially when they are nice, friendly, good, law abiding citizens.
And I come from an even more multi-cultural city than yours.
Much of the problem is, as you say, the ingrained attitude in the media. This has been very much in evidence over the past ten years and I have wept over the pain it has caused to those who are, in the main, nice, friendly, good, law abiding citizens and the problems that it will continue to cause for all of us in the future.
You cannot daemonise a subsection of society without a backlash and when 99.9% of them do not deserve to be tarred with the brush of fanaticism the reportage is unjustified.
I live in a very diverse city and area and have friends from all races/religions/cultures. And when people are rude to them I can't just stand back.
What they do say is out of ignorance most of the time because they don't know any better or they don't know any people like that or they believe what they see or hear in the media. And it's just not fair to see people suffer especially when they are nice, friendly, good, law abiding citizens.
And I come from an even more multi-cultural city than yours.
Much of the problem is, as you say, the ingrained attitude in the media. This has been very much in evidence over the past ten years and I have wept over the pain it has caused to those who are, in the main, nice, friendly, good, law abiding citizens and the problems that it will continue to cause for all of us in the future.
You cannot daemonise a subsection of society without a backlash and when 99.9% of them do not deserve to be tarred with the brush of fanaticism the reportage is unjustified.
Are Black people English?
xara;1389758 wrote: Even though you can't say what 'Englishness' actually is
No, I cannot give a strict definition that will stand up to scrutiny - that does not mean that I do not know what it is.
No, I cannot give a strict definition that will stand up to scrutiny - that does not mean that I do not know what it is.
Are Black people English?
Bryn Mawr;1389761 wrote:
No one gives a definition of it because definitions are difficult thing to give - just when you think you've tied the concept down, dissected it and extracted the essence in a single pithy little statement, someone come up with an exception that blows your definition out of the water (as you can tell, I like my mixed metaphors). As a concept it is easy enough, like life, but as a definition it's a slippery little bu**er.
So the answer is, there is no answer?
How anticlimactic.
No one gives a definition of it because definitions are difficult thing to give - just when you think you've tied the concept down, dissected it and extracted the essence in a single pithy little statement, someone come up with an exception that blows your definition out of the water (as you can tell, I like my mixed metaphors). As a concept it is easy enough, like life, but as a definition it's a slippery little bu**er.
So the answer is, there is no answer?
How anticlimactic.
Are Black people English?
xara;1389772 wrote: So the answer is, there is no answer?
How anticlimactic.
Life's like that
How anticlimactic.
Life's like that
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Are Black people English?
Bryn Mawr;1389768 wrote: And I come from an even more multi-cultural city than yours.
You know where I live :yh_worry
You know where I live :yh_worry
Are Black people English?
xara;1389772 wrote: So the answer is, there is no answer?
How anticlimactic.
You care to have a try?
How anticlimactic.
You care to have a try?
Are Black people English?
Bruv;1389775 wrote: Life's like that
Maybe your life is
:wah:
Maybe your life is
:wah:
Are Black people English?
Bryn Mawr;1389777 wrote: You care to have a try?
Think I asked that one
xara;1389776 wrote: You know where I live :yh_worry
Know I asked that one......think xara wants to be enigmatic.....she could be Chinese
Think I asked that one
xara;1389776 wrote: You know where I live :yh_worry
Know I asked that one......think xara wants to be enigmatic.....she could be Chinese
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Are Black people English?
xara;1389776 wrote: You know where I live :yh_worry
In the UK - given that I come from the most multi-cultural city in the UK and it doesn't square with what you've posted of your background it must be more multi-cultural than yours
In the UK - given that I come from the most multi-cultural city in the UK and it doesn't square with what you've posted of your background it must be more multi-cultural than yours
Are Black people English?
xara;1389778 wrote: Maybe your life is
I am not asking unanswerable questions
I am not asking unanswerable questions
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Are Black people English?
Bryn Mawr;1389777 wrote: You care to have a try?
I don't have the answer, which is why I asked the question.
I was hoping someone more knowledgeable would tell me. But alas it was not meant to be.
I don't have the answer, which is why I asked the question.
I was hoping someone more knowledgeable would tell me. But alas it was not meant to be.
Are Black people English?
xara;1389772 wrote: So the answer is, there is no answer?
How anticlimactic.
The people in the British isles are a nation of mongrels trying to define exactly what is and is not english or scots or irish is a bit pointless and those who try and do it usually know a great deal less of their own history than they think they do. In scotland we have these idiots that go on about the "mither tongue" and think broad scots should be taught in the schools and seem incapable of understanding people spoke different dialects in different areas and there is no "right" one. Same with gaelic - in regions where it was actually spoken keeping it alive has some sense to it but large sections of the Scottish population did not actually speak it.
What's an english accent? is someone from Bradford speaking properly or is it only the home counties that proper english is spoken. Is england the south east around london and how does the "north" fit in Some english commentators talk about up north as if it is a different planet. I knew one londoner who seriously thought cities like leeds and Sheffield had cobbled streets.
How anticlimactic.
The people in the British isles are a nation of mongrels trying to define exactly what is and is not english or scots or irish is a bit pointless and those who try and do it usually know a great deal less of their own history than they think they do. In scotland we have these idiots that go on about the "mither tongue" and think broad scots should be taught in the schools and seem incapable of understanding people spoke different dialects in different areas and there is no "right" one. Same with gaelic - in regions where it was actually spoken keeping it alive has some sense to it but large sections of the Scottish population did not actually speak it.
What's an english accent? is someone from Bradford speaking properly or is it only the home counties that proper english is spoken. Is england the south east around london and how does the "north" fit in Some english commentators talk about up north as if it is a different planet. I knew one londoner who seriously thought cities like leeds and Sheffield had cobbled streets.
-
Betty Boop
- Posts: 16987
- Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:17 pm
- Location: The end of the World
Are Black people English?
Bryn Mawr;1389713 wrote: I note you refer to Cornwall rather than Kernow. Are you Cornish to the extent of flying the Baner Peran and agitating for national independence?
I have not one, but two St Piran's flag stickers on the back of my car :wah:
I'd like to think Cornwall could be independent but sadly those shouting for independence appear to be a minority. We seem to be very conservative around here, it's the farmers, they all seem to be cons :wah: Every time there's a run up to an election it's always a farmer I knew from working in the trade.
I vote Spokespeople | Our Team | Mebyon Kernow - The Party for Cornwall whenever I can, (read that as, if they show up on the ballot paper then I vote for them:wah:)
I have not one, but two St Piran's flag stickers on the back of my car :wah:
I'd like to think Cornwall could be independent but sadly those shouting for independence appear to be a minority. We seem to be very conservative around here, it's the farmers, they all seem to be cons :wah: Every time there's a run up to an election it's always a farmer I knew from working in the trade.
I vote Spokespeople | Our Team | Mebyon Kernow - The Party for Cornwall whenever I can, (read that as, if they show up on the ballot paper then I vote for them:wah:)
Are Black people English?
Betty Boop;1389838 wrote: I have not one, but two St Piran's flag stickers on the back of my car :wah:
I'd like to think Cornwall could be independent but sadly those shouting for independence appear to be a minority. We seem to be very conservative around here, it's the farmers, they all seem to be cons :wah: Every time there's a run up to an election it's always a farmer I knew from working in the trade.
I vote Spokespeople | Our Team | Mebyon Kernow - The Party for Cornwall whenever I can, (read that as, if they show up on the ballot paper then I vote for them:wah:)
I'm with the farmers. The days of tin and gold are long gone and tourism just isn't enough.
I'd like to think Cornwall could be independent but sadly those shouting for independence appear to be a minority. We seem to be very conservative around here, it's the farmers, they all seem to be cons :wah: Every time there's a run up to an election it's always a farmer I knew from working in the trade.
I vote Spokespeople | Our Team | Mebyon Kernow - The Party for Cornwall whenever I can, (read that as, if they show up on the ballot paper then I vote for them:wah:)
I'm with the farmers. The days of tin and gold are long gone and tourism just isn't enough.
Are Black people English?
I have been trawling the internet to find some answers.......
Here follows some links for xara to ponder.........
‘What is Englishness?' is a question I have always studiously avoided answering.
Dr. Sentamu spoke of the need for an English identity which gave full recognition to its Christian nature
Due to these chronic social inhibitions, the English have developed a series of reflexes in order to cope with their lack of straightforwardness.
Why are the English so polite and why do they always talk about the weather?
Some serious and not so serious explanations for the way we are.
Here follows some links for xara to ponder.........
‘What is Englishness?' is a question I have always studiously avoided answering.
Dr. Sentamu spoke of the need for an English identity which gave full recognition to its Christian nature
Due to these chronic social inhibitions, the English have developed a series of reflexes in order to cope with their lack of straightforwardness.
Why are the English so polite and why do they always talk about the weather?
Some serious and not so serious explanations for the way we are.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
-
Betty Boop
- Posts: 16987
- Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:17 pm
- Location: The end of the World
Are Black people English?
Nice weather today Bruv 
Off to read the rest of the articles now.
Off to read the rest of the articles now.Are Black people English?
Betty Boop;1389856 wrote: Nice weather today Bruv Off to read the rest of the articles now.
Not sure how to answer that........could cause an embarrasment
Off to read the rest of the articles now.Not sure how to answer that........could cause an embarrasment
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Are Black people English?
Bruv: Thank you for your extensive research
The last two links are obviously the 'not so serious explanations' as they don't really talk about who and who is not English but rather Englishness as in the love of queues, talking about weather and politeness.
In the second link the The Archbishop of York also talks about Englishness - The English are tolerant etc. etc. rather than who is English.
The first link is the most interesting.
"If this is your home and you consider yourself to be English then you are, as far as I'm concerned, English. Full stop. This who would seek to divide us along racial or ethnic lines need to be firmly and loudly resisted".
To an extent this sentiment has already been stated on this thread, but if it is only felt by the minority, is it still valid?
The majority view rules and if the majority view is that 'English' is an ethnicity then the sentiment wont hold true will it?
And is it fair to the Nationalists who are proud of their culture and history to say 'well Englands changed now we're letting anyone who wants to be English to be English and if you don't like it - tough'?
The last two links are obviously the 'not so serious explanations' as they don't really talk about who and who is not English but rather Englishness as in the love of queues, talking about weather and politeness.
In the second link the The Archbishop of York also talks about Englishness - The English are tolerant etc. etc. rather than who is English.
The first link is the most interesting.
"If this is your home and you consider yourself to be English then you are, as far as I'm concerned, English. Full stop. This who would seek to divide us along racial or ethnic lines need to be firmly and loudly resisted".
To an extent this sentiment has already been stated on this thread, but if it is only felt by the minority, is it still valid?
The majority view rules and if the majority view is that 'English' is an ethnicity then the sentiment wont hold true will it?
And is it fair to the Nationalists who are proud of their culture and history to say 'well Englands changed now we're letting anyone who wants to be English to be English and if you don't like it - tough'?
Are Black people English?
xara;1389861 wrote: Bruv: Thank you for your extensive research
The last two links are obviously the 'not so serious explanations' as they don't really talk about who and who is not English but rather Englishness as in the love of queues, talking about weather and politeness.
In the second link the The Archbishop of York also talks about Englishness - The English are tolerant etc. etc. rather than who is English.
The first link is the most interesting.
"If this is your home and you consider yourself to be English then you are, as far as I'm concerned, English. Full stop. This who would seek to divide us along racial or ethnic lines need to be firmly and loudly resisted".
To an extent this sentiment has already been stated on this thread, but if it is only felt by the minority, is it still valid?
The majority view rules and if the majority view is that 'English' is an ethnicity then the sentiment wont hold true will it?
And is it fair to the Nationalists who are proud of their culture and history to say 'well Englands changed now we're letting anyone who wants to be English to be English and if you don't like it - tough'?
Firstly you would have to find evidence of what constitutes the majority view. You obviously feel that it is the nationalist view "English is an ethnicity" but I would dispute that - it is an outdated concept that still has adherents but they are in the minority.
As to being fair to the Nationalists, why? They are not fair to anyone else!
The last two links are obviously the 'not so serious explanations' as they don't really talk about who and who is not English but rather Englishness as in the love of queues, talking about weather and politeness.
In the second link the The Archbishop of York also talks about Englishness - The English are tolerant etc. etc. rather than who is English.
The first link is the most interesting.
"If this is your home and you consider yourself to be English then you are, as far as I'm concerned, English. Full stop. This who would seek to divide us along racial or ethnic lines need to be firmly and loudly resisted".
To an extent this sentiment has already been stated on this thread, but if it is only felt by the minority, is it still valid?
The majority view rules and if the majority view is that 'English' is an ethnicity then the sentiment wont hold true will it?
And is it fair to the Nationalists who are proud of their culture and history to say 'well Englands changed now we're letting anyone who wants to be English to be English and if you don't like it - tough'?
Firstly you would have to find evidence of what constitutes the majority view. You obviously feel that it is the nationalist view "English is an ethnicity" but I would dispute that - it is an outdated concept that still has adherents but they are in the minority.
As to being fair to the Nationalists, why? They are not fair to anyone else!
Are Black people English?
Can you be English without being able to speak it?