ForumGarden

To put it simply I believe in the experiantial reality of God as well as in the experiential reality of the Risen Christ.

This is my experience actually several experiences over a great many years. If anyone has the arrogance to try and tell me what I have experienced or they think I have experienced then they do in fact place themselves in the place of God.

Shalom

Ted :-6 :-6

Does one believe that the workings of the universe is extremely complicated ? Do you respect the complex nature of life? Do you really believe that all of our experience just came to be by random chance?

Let's do some practical science.

1. Get a regular mechanical clock.

2. Take it apart. Place the several hundred pieces in a cardboard box.

3. Pick up the box and shake it.

4. Observe the pieces. Have the pieces become organized, sorted, and

arranged by part? See if the tiny pieces re-position themselves in exact

sequence, position, and torque in order for the clock to work again. Observe

if the clock was assembled again. No? Turn box upside down. Go to step 5.

5. Shake box. Go to 4. Repeat 1 billion times if necessary.

What are the chances that this clock will magically be put back together again by chaotically shaking it over time? Is not life several billion times more complicated than a mere clock in a box? Is it absurd to acknowledge that a master clock maker is going to be needed to systematically put this clock back together?

Is it not absurd then, to believe that your life experience is made up of nothing more than nature's chaotic shaking over time?

Ted wrote: To put it simply I believe in the experiantial reality of God as well as in the experiential reality of the Risen Christ.

This is my experience actually several experiences over a great many years. If anyone has the arrogance to try and tell me what I have experienced or they think I have experienced then they do in fact place themselves in the place of God.

Shalom

Ted :-6 :-6


Will it also be considered arrogance by you if I request you to share your experiences with me?

illuminati wrote: Does one believe that the workings of the universe is extremely complicated ? Do you respect the complex nature of life? Do you really believe that all of our experience just came to be by random chance?

Let's do some practical science.

1. Get a regular mechanical clock.

2. Take it apart. Place the several hundred pieces in a cardboard box.

3. Pick up the box and shake it.

4. Observe the pieces. Have the pieces become organized, sorted, and

arranged by part? See if the tiny pieces re-position themselves in exact

sequence, position, and torque in order for the clock to work again. Observe

if the clock was assembled again. No? Turn box upside down. Go to step 5.

5. Shake box. Go to 4. Repeat 1 billion times if necessary.

What are the chances that this clock will magically be put back together again by chaotically shaking it over time? Is not life several billion times more complicated than a mere clock in a box? Is it absurd to acknowledge that a master clock maker is going to be needed to systematically put this clock back together?

Is it not absurd then, to believe that your life experience is made up of nothing more than nature's chaotic shaking over time?


Allow me to reply. I believe that the workings of the universe is extremely complicated as our knowledge of the universe is limite. I also believe and respect the complex nature of life. But I do not believe that all of our experiences just came to be by random chance.

Have you carried out this experiment, and if yes, then how many times you have shaken the box and what is the result? After that I will answer your remaining question.

I`ve been wondering whether all of the members here that believe in god, believe in the same god. Do different religions consider their god to be different from others`. Some religions consider it wrong to worship false idols so do they believe someone elses interpretation of god to be wrong.

What is it about NO, you don't understand? :-5

I understand that Paul does not believe in God. That is the path he has chosen. May he find happiness in it.

Shalom

Ted :-6

Gupta :-6

Of course it is not arrogant for you to ask about my experiences. It only becomes arrogant when some who has not had my experience tries to tell me what I have experienced. That would be like playing God.

I'll have more to say on that over the next little while.

Shalom

Ted :-6

The question concerning God (gods) etc.

It is my belief that there is only one God but He does have a thousand or more names: God, Allah, Great Spirit, Vishnu etc. Since any response that we as humans make to our experience of the Divine, whether in written or oral form is purely human you will find many variations.

What affects how we view God, if we indeed believe in the Divine?: our history, our language, our belief systems, our upbfnging, our culture, own own experiences, the experiences of others, our ability to conceptualize, our own mental abilities and probably a host of others.

Shalom

Ted :-6

Gupta :-6

In modern science today we find scientists believing in certain physical elements that cannot be seen directly. I will refer to subatomic particles. They cannot be seen directly but only indirectly by traces they leave or marks they make on the target. They see the end result and infer their physical nature etc.

So too does the believer in God. He, and I use "He" since it is the traditional anthropomorphization of God. I have witnessed and experienced changes in peoples lives and health that doctors with all their science have ultimately said it was a miracle that cannot be explained outside of a belief if God.

More to come. Just remember these are my experiences and not yours or of anyone else beyond the vicinity of the experience. Just as a parent when a child is not home on time says after while I know something is wrong and it turns out to be so. I too know what I know.

Shalom

Ted :-6

Suresh Gupta wrote: Allow me to reply. I believe that the workings of the universe is extremely complicated as our knowledge of the universe is limite. I also believe and respect the complex nature of life. But I do not believe that all of our experiences just came to be by random chance.

Have you carried out this experiment, and if yes, then how many times you have shaken the box and what is the result? After that I will answer your remaining question.


The experiment is rhetorical. I certainly cannot shake a box full of parts one billion times. You can extrapolate, however, that after shaking a billion times, you will still have an unorganized box of clock pieces.

Paula wrote: What is it about NO, you don't understand? :-5


I think this is directed at me? Well, I honestly feel sorry for you. Since you responded, forum rules allow me to respond.

There are two types of people who roam this earth: Those who have faith and those who don't.

The ones without faith are generally unhappy and bitter. They live vacuous marginal lives and usually question in despair about their accomplishments in life thus far.

I have a box of clock parts. If I give it to you, are you going to shake it or are you going to re-assemble it with intelligence?

I wonder how many people are going to be shaking a box for the next few months. If anyone does, I suggest you throw a screwdriver in there too.

vampress.rozz wrote: I`ve been wondering whether all of the members here that believe in god, believe in the same god. Do different religions consider their god to be different from others`. Some religions consider it wrong to worship false idols so do they believe someone elses interpretation of god to be wrong.


Hinduism tells us that God is One, different people worship Him in different ways but reach Him. Hindus have no problem with other religions and the God their followers worship.

There are no doubt people who interpret teachings of their religion that their religion and their God are only true and all other religions and Gods are wrong.

koan wrote: I wonder how many people are going to be shaking a box for the next few months. If anyone does, I suggest you throw a screwdriver in there too.


This is a good one. I enjoyed it.

illuminati wrote: The experiment is rhetorical. I certainly cannot shake a box full of parts one billion times. You can extrapolate, however, that after shaking a billion times, you will still have an unorganized box of clock pieces.


Yes, you are right. You will have to get some tools and knowledge about the clock to assemble it back if you want it to work again.

Although it was just an analogy, and a rather clever one, I wonder:

A clock, representing time which is man made and of the Earth, is best left unassembled in the search for the divine. I think taking it apart is the best act in this analogy. Time results in sequential thinking and, I have found, the best spiritual advances have happened when I removed all time pieces from my person and moved beyond the limits of earthly rules. I would leave the clock parts in the box and be quite thankful it has no more power over me.

Gupta :-6

Thinking back to my comment about "arrogance" it may have been a little strong in this case. I have experienced so often the "know it alls" trying to tell me what I experienced.

I like my analogy of depression used elsewhere here. I think it is a much better one. No offense was intended and I do hope that none was received.

In fact there is one argument I refuse to get involved in and that is "The existence of God. It is generally a fruitless and very circular run.

Shalom

Ted :-6

Ted wrote: Gupta :-6

Thinking back to my comment about "arrogance" it may have been a little strong in this case. I have experienced so often the "know it alls" trying to tell me what I experienced.

I like my analogy of depression used elsewhere here. I think it is a much better one. No offense was intended and I do hope that none was received.

In fact there is one argument I refuse to get involved in and that is "The existence of God. It is generally a fruitless and very circular run.

Shalom

Ted :-6


Let me assure you that I did not take it as an offense. The purpose of my joining this and various other forums is to expand my own concepts through exchange of information and views.

My participation in the discussion on 'Existence of God' is also governed by my desire of expanding my concepts which have been built in to my thought process and belief throughout my life. This makes these discussions fruitful.

koan wrote: Although it was just an analogy, and a rather clever one, I wonder:

A clock, representing time which is man made and of the Earth, is best left unassembled in the search for the divine. I think taking it apart is the best act in this analogy. Time results in sequential thinking and, I have found, the best spiritual advances have happened when I removed all time pieces from my person and moved beyond the limits of earthly rules. I would leave the clock parts in the box and be quite thankful it has no more power over me.


I find your analysis very interesting. No common human being can claim to be free of the power of time. Time is all powerful. Putting all clock parts in to a box and forgetting about it will have no effect on time. But an elevated person (who has moved beyond the limits of earthly rules) can claim to be unaffected by time. This is the highest level of God realization.

I find your analysis very interesting. No common human being can claim to be free of the power of time. Time is all powerful. Putting all clock parts in to a box and forgetting about it will have no effect on time. But an elevated person (who has moved beyond the limits of earthly rules) can claim to be unaffected by time. This is the highest level of God realization.


I may not be common, I don't know, but I am certainly not at the highest level of God realization. I don't live in this state, I visit it. These are the kind of experiences that people have that can not be explained to others and others can not take from the one who experienced it. Time is not all powerful. It may continue to age my body, although some claim this can be stopped, I have no interest in preserving it in eternal youth. But I am not my body. Many earthly rules can be broken once you understand them. (Like Telaquapacky falling sideways) The earth, to me, is an illusion. A very wonderful and complex one, but an illusion nonetheless.

I have touched only a piece of God realisation. And I couldn't bring it back with me though I tried very hard. But still, I brought a piece of it inside me and it grows. If I never reach "God realisation" to its fullest, I still carry a larger piece of it with me every time I get closer. Do not give your power to time or any other human restraint.

koan wrote: I may not be common, I don't know, but I am certainly not at the highest level of God realization. I don't live in this state, I visit it. These are the kind of experiences that people have that can not be explained to others and others can not take from the one who experienced it. Time is not all powerful. It may continue to age my body, although some claim this can be stopped, I have no interest in preserving it in eternal youth. But I am not my body. Many earthly rules can be broken once you understand them. (Like Telaquapacky falling sideways) The earth, to me, is an illusion. A very wonderful and complex one, but an illusion nonetheless.

I have touched only a piece of God realisation. And I couldn't bring it back with me though I tried very hard. But still, I brought a piece of it inside me and it grows. If I never reach "God realisation" to its fullest, I still carry a larger piece of it with me every time I get closer. Do not give your power to time or any other human restraint.


I wish you success on your path of God realization.

It would be nice not to be rulled by time.

My employer would fire me if I get to that point of enlightenment that I don't clock in on time.

If you don't work you don't eat is what my dad use to tell me. Now going beyond food that would be a trick.

"Time time time is on myside. . ." Rolling Stones

"Time may change be but you can't change time" David Bowie

__________________

Lotto

http://www.flalottomagic.net/cgi-local/ ... elcome-344

MagicZ4941

Suresh Gupta wrote: I wish you success on your path of God realization.


And I to you on yours. :-6

That is the important thing here. That we wish each other success and support whatever process is taking place. You spread much love and I appreciate you for it.

koan wrote: And I to you on yours. :-6

That is the important thing here. That we wish each other success and support whatever process is taking place. You spread much love and I appreciate you for it.


Thanks for your encouraging words.

Your signature, "Forever already happened...I was there" takes me to the battlefield of Kurushetra where Lord Krishna taught Arjuna using words having similar meaning.

Suresh Gupta wrote:

Your signature, "Forever already happened...I was there" takes me to the battlefield of Kurushetra where Lord Krishna taught Arjuna using words having similar meaning.


It just occured to me "on the spot" when I decided to have a signature. I am interested to know what Lord Krishna's words were.

LottomagicZ4941 wrote: It would be nice not to be rulled by time.

My employer would fire me if I get to that point of enlightenment that I don't clock in on time.

If you don't work you don't eat is what my dad use to tell me. Now going beyond food that would be a trick.

"Time time time is on myside. . ." Rolling Stones

"Time may change be but you can't change time" David Bowie

__________________

Lotto

http://www.flalottomagic.net/cgi-local/ ... elcome-344

MagicZ4941


It is true that we must function within time as part of the earthly experience. Before clocks this was based on daylight and was much less oppressive. For more detailed description of how time doesn't REALLY exist see "What?" thread. Though one may have to function within time for their chosen job, one does not have to live in it at all times. Some people have claimed to not have to eat food anymore. I'm not that "free" yet. Considered trying it a long while ago but I'm a little too skinny to have room for error! :wah:

This thread seems to tangented from the orginal. "Do you believe in GOD?" Somehow I started reading it in mid post or something.

Anyway, I think what we believe to be less important then what is fact. I believe we were created in God's image. Better to say God's image then His or Her. Since Adam was created first one could argue that Adam is more God like. And if we accept that God is perfect as some people claim the notion that God improved on women can't be valid. Or does perfection permit improvement?

I've already posted here on how my knee was healed once. I can tell you there is a God and S/he is far more powerful then we are. http://www.flalottomagic.net/cgi-lo...cgi?welcome-344

MagicZ4941

koan wrote: It just occured to me "on the spot" when I decided to have a signature. I am interested to know what Lord Krishna's words were.


The Supreme Lord Krishna said: One who wants to know Me, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, should only understand that I existed before creation, I exist in the creation, as well as after complete dissolution. Any other existence is nothing but My illusory energy (Maya). I exist within the creation and at the same time outside the creation. I am the all-pervading Supreme Lord who exists everywhere, in everything, and at all times.

Suresh Gupta wrote: The Supreme Lord Krishna said: One who wants to know Me, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, should only understand that I existed before creation, I exist in the creation, as well as after complete dissolution. Any other existence is nothing but My illusory energy (Maya). I exist within the creation and at the same time outside the creation. I am the all-pervading Supreme Lord who exists everywhere, in everything, and at all times.


Yes, there is definately a similarity in thought, not just in my signature but in many of my beliefs and experiences. I find the description of "Supreme Personality" to be interesting as I believe Personality implies the limit of what we in human form would be capable of knowing within out limited state. This implies to me that as a personality myself I may know "God" but to experience unification with God I must give up my personality. Does this also require giving up one's body to experience unification? I don't think so. I think the buddhic sages unified and I think a key to it is to destroy the personality or Ego.

This thread seems to tangented from the orginal. "Do you believe in GOD?" Somehow I started reading it in mid post or something.

Anyway, I think what we believe to be less important then what is fact. I believe we were created in God's image. Better to say God's image then His or Her. Since Adam was created first one could argue that Adam is more God like. And if we accept that God is perfect as some people claim the notion that God improved on women can't be valid. Or does perfection permit improvement?

I've already posted here on how my knee was healed once. I can tell you there is a God and S/he is far more powerful then we are.


Tangents occur in most threads but people keep posting and the topic usually gets back on track again. This thread will likely continue for a very long time.

I question your use of "fact". The words of the bible are highly questionable as fact considering it was written by men a long time ago...see Ted's descriptions of midrash...and translated from the original language. Many people believe we created God in OUR image. I believe, in the beginning of the old testament, God was refered to as the divine "we" representing both female and male and the references were altered throughout time. I think it is fairly well established that masculine and feminine exists in all people and is not just a separation factor between men and women. But see how you have created a tangent as well now?

Once one believes, as is the basic question...where do we go from there? It would be quite boring if everyone just posted "yes" or "no" with no ensuing discussion.

If we agree with Marcus Borg and others then being a Christian is not a matter of believing in or following a set of doctrines or dogma but is a matter of developing a loving transforming relationship with the Risen Lord.

This can be done and is done by millions around the world without their even knowing it. The central metaphor of Jesus message was the "Kindgom of God". It was to be established here or earth and would continue at a much later date at the great feast of all the saints, remembering that even this is metaphor since we lack the language to discuss the Divine or the infinite.

How is this done? All faiths seem to have a version of the Golden Rule: Do unto others etc. They also seem to have a similar commandment to love God and your neighbour as yourself. Jesus in Matt 25 spoke of those being invited into the kingdom because they had fed the hungry, clothed the naked, cared for the sick etc. Some questioned him about this wondering how this did anything to Jesus and his response was since you did it to the least of these you have done it to me. That it what is meant by "I am the way . . ." In Acts 10 we read that all who love God and do what is right are acceptable to him. None of this sounds like exclusivity to me. In fact it means that Christianity is in fact an inclusive faith.

The above gives us a small glimpse of what this Kingdom of God will look like.

Shalom

Ted :-6

Thank you, Ted. :-6

I was hoping we could start hearing portions of the Bible that relate to loving each other regardless of faith and quotations that promote peace.

koan :-6

There are lots of them. I'm sure they will come up during the discussion.

Shalom

Ted :-6

koan wrote: Yes, there is definately a similarity in thought, not just in my signature but in many of my beliefs and experiences. I find the description of "Supreme Personality" to be interesting as I believe Personality implies the limit of what we in human form would be capable of knowing within out limited state. This implies to me that as a personality myself I may know "God" but to experience unification with God I must give up my personality. Does this also require giving up one's body to experience unification? I don't think so. I think the buddhic sages unified and I think a key to it is to destroy the personality or Ego.........


Yes there are many instances mentioned in various books about saints who were unified with God in their physical body itself. But this unification is limited to knowing Him as we know all others around us. But to become one with Him one has to give up this physical body. Gita says that this body is like a cloth which Atman wears when it separates fron Parmatman. After every death in the life cycle Atman discards one body and goes into another body. In the end Atman leaves the physical bodyand unites with Parmatman.

illuminati wrote: There are two types of people who roam this earth: Those who have faith and those who don't.



The ones without faith are generally unhappy and bitter. They live vacuous marginal lives and usually question in despair about their accomplishments in life thus far.
illuminati, that is what you see because that is what you choose to see. I see the exact opposite, again because I choose it.



I'm not remotely concerned with whether there is an actual god or not. However, my life can hardly be defined as vacuous or marginal. Nor can I be defined as unhappy or bitter.



Most of the people I know who aren't interested in formal religion are very involved in community work, in helping other people, in expanding their own minds and experiences. They find their purpose not in a bible but in action - in doing what they can with their talents and energies to make life better for themselves and those around them.



While I truly believe there are many Christians who are trying to follow their own faith in thought and action, there are many who seem to find the time to impose themselves on everyone else. It is this type of religious person that I recoil from, and others like me. The ones who are truly happy and are actively working on their faith are too busy to interfere with everyone else's view on faith.



So, my experience tells me to beware the religious. Your experience tells you to beware the non-religious...and somewhere in between lies the truth.



It is not a faith and non-faith world. I'd say it is divided between those with purpose and those without.

A Karenina wrote:



It is not a faith and non-faith world. I'd say it is divided between those with purpose and those without.


Yes, it is a rather black and white statement. I wonder if illumunati said it for brevity or if he truly believes in a dividing line as such.

A Karenina wrote: It is not a faith and non-faith world. I'd say it is divided between those with purpose and those without.
not my quote, but no idea who said it first:



There are two kinds of people in this world: those who believe there are two kinds of people in this world, and those who know better.



:yh_bigsmi

koan wrote: Yes, it is a rather black and white statement. I wonder if illumunati said it for brevity or if he truly believes in a dividing line as such.
I'm not sure, either. But the comments on marginal lives make me lean in the direction of a dividing line. Hopefully illuminati will be by later to let us know.

A Karenina wrote: ......what you see because that is what you choose to see.....

I'm not remotely concerned with whether there is an actual god or not. ........

Most of the people I know who aren't interested in formal religion are very involved in community work, in helping other people, in expanding their own minds and experiences. They find their purpose not in a bible but in action - in doing what they can with their talents and energies to make life better for themselves and those around them......



So, my experience tells me to beware the religious. Your experience tells you to beware the non-religious...and somewhere in between lies the truth.



It is not a faith and non-faith world. I'd say it is divided between those with purpose and those without.


I will agree with you that 'what we see depends mainly on what we look for'.

I don't find any problem in your not being concerned whether there is God or not. I would vote for the 'people who are involved in community work and help other people but do not believe in God' against those 'who believe in God but remain unconcerned over the misery of others'.

'Beware of religious people' or 'beware of non-religious people' is mainly based on ons's personal experience. It can not be generalized. Also one can call it 'faith & non-faith' or 'with-purpose & without-purpose'.

anastrophe wrote:

There are two kinds of people in this world: those who believe there are two kinds of people in this world, and those who know better!:yh_bigsmi
:wah: I missed this one yesterday. Too funny!

"There are two kinds of people in this world: those who believe there are two kinds of people in this world, and those who know better."

LOL I thought the two types were male and female:)

Does God Believe In Me, and what if I am a Trans-Sexual? What should i do now?

Paula wrote: Does God Believe In Me, and what if I am a Trans-Sexual? What should i do now?
Mmmm...... must admit i did have my doubts Paula, or should i say Paul??.. LOL

I would suggest carry on being the best person you can be as you follow your path. I don't believe that God really cares what your sexual orientation is.

Shalom

Ted :-6

I believe in God. But I dont believe in any manmade doctrine directing me in how I believe. I believe in him differently every day. I believe in him privately as I fight my pesonal battles. How I feel .. How I act How I respond.. How I treat others.. How I hurt. How I give.. How grateful I am.. How hateful I am.. How generous I am........ How moved I ame... How positive I am... How wary I am.... How grateful I am.. How frightened I am.......... Do You understand?

zovall wrote: And what is your concept of it/he/her?


No Concept of God, as I whole heartedly do not believe in GOD!

abbey wrote: Mmmm...... must admit i did have my doubts Paula, or should i say Paul??.. LOL


Don't Laugh, I am either Paula or Paul at times? Most of the time I am PAULA, i can be PAUL too...I'll slap you girl..i am a namow...reverse that...

I believe in the cosmic comedian. Life is a joke we just don't know the punchline.