How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[xfrodobagginsx]

Fuzzy;1511748 wrote: I reckon Spong might be mistaken. Hell will be bursting with fundies. Most , if not all of them have been spreading lies for thousands of years. Only decent people go to heaven.


I will go a step further Fuzzy. Only perfect people go to heaven. The problem is that nobody is perfect. That's why God sent His Son to live a perfect life so that whomever places their faith in Him, will put on His righteousness and be admitted into heaven. Not because of anything that THEY have done, but because of what Jesus did for them.

[xfrodobagginsx]

Ted;1511770 wrote: Xfrod do you have a reading problem? I said the early Jewish people did not believe in an after life. To say that Jesus died for our sins is to demean a very profound human being and God. Jesus died because he was seen as a subversive and Rome considered him a threat to the empire. I do not accept the supernatural.. The fundies are simply wannabes


I just take Jesus at His word. Given the fact that He fulfilled hundreds of prophecies written hundreds of years before His birth, performed miracles, walked on water, turned water into wine, healed the sick, made the lame to walk, blind to see, raised the dead, predicted His own death and resurrection and then died and rose from the dead, Claimed to be God, I think He has the authority and I believe Him. Jesus told us why He came. Why not believe Him? It wasn't really Rome that wanted Him put to death, it was the Jewish religious leaders. If Rome really wanted Him put to death, He wouldn't have been shuffled around between Pilot and Herod. Pilot finally gave in to the Jewish people and killed Him. Nonetheless, it was God's plan all along for Jesus to die on that cross to save us from our sins if we will place our faith in Jesus, believing that He died and rose from the dead for our sins. It's much deeper than just Rome. You must not really understand that, even though it's very clear in scriptures. What do you do with the resurrection of Jesus? Why doesn't that convince you?

[Saint_]

LarsMac;1511860 wrote: You've been there?


I have...It was called "Phoenix, Arizona."

[Saint_]

xfrodobagginsx;1511875 wrote: Claimed to be God,


Actually, the Bible says in many places that Jesus was not God:



1. Matthew 24:36

No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.

Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.

2. Matthew 26:39

My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.

Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

3. John 5:26

For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.

4. John 5:30

By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.

Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing. This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.

5. John 5:19

The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.

Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

6. Mark 10:18

Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.

Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God. He also admits he's not perfect or even without sin.

7. John 14:28

The Father is greater than I.

This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.

8. Matthew 6:9

Our Father, which art in Heaven.

He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!

9. Matthew 27:46

My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

[Ted]

Xftrod. Only about 16% of the words attributed to Jesus actually go back to hime. The rest aree the words put into the mouth of Jesus by the evangelists who wrote the gospels. So I do not believe the Bible to be in and of its self the word off God. It becomes the Word of God for some Christians begums The word of God for some Christians because God seems to speak to them through the very human words of the Bible... It always amazes me how many "Christians" keep trying to tell God how he should behave. It is laughable. In the New Testament tells us that "He will be merciful to whom He will be Merciful". Then of Course in John 16 He is reported to have said that the Holy Spirit will come to lead us into all truth. Here again it is amazing how many folks try to tell God what he can and can't do.

[xfrodobagginsx]

Ted;1511801 wrote: Xfrod I was raised in a very fundamentalist church and found it to be evil. A literal reading of the Bible raises all kinds of absurdities. "and God saw all that he had make and it was good very good.


What about the Church did you find it to be "Evil". A literal reading of the Bible is the correct one unless it specifies otherwise. Yes God saw everything that He had made and saw that it was good. You have a problem believing that? Why?

[Fuzzy]

Dear God,

Having just finished reading your book, which wasn’t a bad attempt for a first try, I am a little concerned with your psychological well-being. Thus, I would like to administer a quick psychiatric evaluation to see whether or not you are psychotic.

Psychosis is a symptom of a mental illness, typically associated with a loss of touch with reality. (1) Given that you exist outside of reality, it is perfectly understandable why you might not be in touch with it.

In Nelson and Good M.D’s Psychiatry Made Ridiculously Simple, they relay a common mnemonic acronym for diagnosing someone in the throes of a psychotic episode. It is JOIMAT, which stands for Judgement, Orientation, Intellectual functioning, Memory/Mood, Appearance/Affect & Thought. (2) As I cannot ask you the necessary questions to establish whether you are psychotic, I am forced to draw from your written work. I will quote from Nelson and Good’s book and then do my best ascertain whether or not each letter of the acronym may or may not apply to you.

J - Judgement: It is important to find out whether the patient can understand acceptable patterns of behaviour and consequences of his actions. (3)

1. If you are unhappy with your children’s behaviour, do you:

a. Discipline them sternly, but gently and coach them to become better behaved?

b. Kick them in the teeth?

c. Drown them (Genesis 6-7)?

2. If a group of children are teasing a bald man, do you:

a. Gently reprimand the children and ask them to apologize?

b. Punch them in the face?

c. Set wild bears upon them (2 Kings 2:23-24)?

3. If your children are hungry for more than tiny biscuits and ask you for food, do you:

a. Feed them?

b. Laugh at them?

c. Feed them and then kill them by deliberately infecting them with a deadly disease (Numbers 11:31-35)?

I think it is fair to say that we have established this limb of Nelson and Good’s list.

O - Orientation: This refers to whether the patient knows who he is, where he is and what time it is.(4)

This one may be a little trickier to establish as a result of your reluctance to answer questions, but I will just highlight a few areas of your work that raise some cause for concern. In the book of Genesis, you don’t seem to know whether you are a single coherent god, or a multitude of incoherent ones. At times you refer to yourself in the plural and even more disturbing, you seem to be addressing your other selves, as in the following example:

Let us make man in our image, after our likeness¦(Genesis 1:26)

I understand that a number of your more enthusiastic children have sought to claim without any verification from yourself, that you were speaking in the pluralis majestatis and that you were actually talking to yourself, (5) an issue that does present some reason to worry about your mental state; however, a number of your more scholarly children have established that there were in fact many of you in the early stages of your chosen children’s religion. (6) Either way, this verse, coupled with a number of others, (7) does seem to indicate that you don’t really know how many personalities you actually have and if you have more than one, you are probably psychotic, if not suffering from a personality disorder, no offense!

Another red flag presents itself in the way you describe yourself in the New Testament portion of your book. You claim to be three in one, father, son and a ghost, if I am not mistaken (Matthew 28:19). The split personality issue raises yet another dilemma and this related issue regards your ability to tell time.

Acting in the persona of your only begotten son, a complex conflation, if I am to be perfectly honest, you told your children that following your death, resurrection and ascension to space, you would be right back. Here I quote:

I assure you that you will not finish your work in all the towns of Israel before the son of Man comes - Matthew 10:23

And:

Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things(End of the World and your second coming) be fulfilled. - Matthew 24:34

I understand that being an eternal creature, our finite sense of time must be almost totally foreign to you, although you did create it, so you should have at least, a cursory understanding of it, but from these verses and the fact that well, it’s been around 2000 years since you passed, you do not seem to be too aware of time and for this reason, I think we can check this box as well.

I – Intellectual Functioning: This refers essentially to the patient’s cognitive status. How well can he carry out calculations and other thought processes that would be commensurate with his education? (8)

Considering you are all-knowing, I must imbue the highest level of education upon you, as to do otherwise would be logically absurd and open me up to charges of blasphemy. So, how well can you, an all-knowing deity, carry out calculations based on your supremely knowledgeable and intelligent capabilities?

Let me approach this with a number of easy questions to determine your cognitive status:

1. If you are the all-powerful, all-loving and all-knowing creator of everything and you desire a cosmos which is absent of evil, do you:

a. Create a cosmos without evil? Or;

b. Create a cosmos with evil?

Here you chose B.

2. If you create a male human being; which of the following species of female do you first think to create to be his reproductive partner?

a. A human female? Or;

b. Animals (Genesis 2:18)

Here you chose B.

1. If you have two new born children who do not know the difference between right and wrong, do you:

a. Leave them alone in a garden without constant supervision and also, plant a tree that they are not allowed to eat from, along with the “most cunning beast of the field, a walking and talking snake, who you know will persuade them to eat from that tree?

b. Look after them?

Here you chose A.

I think we have sufficient information to conclude that your intellectual functioning is sub-par, particularly for your omniscient mind.

M – Memory/Mood: This tests whether the patient can recall both distant and recent events. (9)

I am going to go ahead and check this box for a number of reasons. In your first book, you appear to have forgotten the mode and order in which you created everything. In the first chapter you recall creating everything from water (Genesis 1:2, 6-7), whilst in the second chapter, you change your mind and recall creating everything from some dry substance (Genesis 2:5-6). Further, in the first chapter you remember creating man and woman simultaneously (Genesis 1:27), before which you recollect creating the birds and beasts, whilst in the second chapter, you assert that you made man first, then the birds, beasts and then women (Genesis 2:1-23). Further, in that same book, you tell Noah to take two of every animal onto his boat (Genesis 6:19-22), then you seem to have forgotten that you made this request and after he had finished circumnavigating the entire globe, which was no small feat for a man of his age, you told him that you wanted seven of the clean animals and two of the others (Genesis 7:1-5), thereby inconveniencing poor old Noah.

Although there are many other instances I could draw from, I will bring just one more example to your attention. In the New Testament, you, acting in the persona of your son, are enjoying a meal with your disciples, two of whom, hound you about where you will be going after you die. Immediately following this, you get mad at them for not asking you where you will be going after you die (John 13:35, 14:6 & 16:5). This, in addition to the previous examples I drew your attention to, indicate that you have trouble remembering events that occurred in both the near and distant past and satisfies this limb of Nelson and Good’s test.

A – Appearance/Affect: The patient’s appearance (e.g., dishevelled, sad faces, motor activity) can be helpful in the evaluation. (10)

By all appearances you appear to be invisible, although I am aware that on one occasion you showed Moses your backside (Exodus 33:23), which does seem somewhat erratic, so we will just move onto the final criterion in Nelson and Good’s list.

T – Thought: The process of the patient’s thinking is important. Do his thoughts relate to each other logically, or do they seem random, having no bearing or relation to each other? (11)

Aside from the examples furnished to show that your memory may not be what it should be, I would like to present you with a short list of questions, the answers to which, demonstrate anomalous, conflicting and illogical thought patterns you present in your work.

1. Should your children eat pork?

Leviticus 11:7 – No

Mark 7:18-19 - Yes

2. Must your children rest on the Sabbath?

Exodus 16:23-30, 20:8-11, 31:14 Yes.

Matthew 12:1-12, Mark 2:27 – No.

3. Must your children be circumcised?

Genesis 17:10-14 – Yes.

Romans 4:10 – No.

4. Must your children obey your laws laid out in your Old Testament?

Matthew 5:17-19 – Yes.

Romans 3:20/28 – No.

5. Do you endorse wisdom?

Proverbs 4:7 – Yes.

l Corinthians l:l9 – No.

6. Will you protect the righteous?

Proverbs 12:21 – Yes.

Hebrews ll:36-39 – No.

7. Are you a god of peace?

John 14:27 – Yes.

Exodus 15:3 – No.

8. Are you one god, or many?

Genesis 1 - Many.

Genesis 2 – One.

9. Will you preserve the earth?

Ecclesiastes l:4 – Yes.

2 Peter 3:l0 – No.

10. Should your children kill each other?

Exodus 20:13 – No.

Exodus 32:27 – Yes.

You have satisfied Nelson and Good’s test for determining whether a patient is suffering psychosis and although psychosis is episodic in nature, you are an eternal creature and judging from the timespan over which your book was written, it appears that your psychotic episodes last a very long time.

Before administering this little psych evaluation, I must admit, I was flummoxed with regards to conduct, particularly given your all-loving and all-knowing status, but my eyes have seen the light and now I understand that you kill your children for irrational reasons, because you are psychotic and again, I really must stress, I mean no disrespect. It may be the result of an eternity spent in isolation, which would explain not only your psychotic break, but also the instances in which you address yourself in the third person and make commandments by and for, yourself. It also explains why, as the son of yourself, you cried out to yourself, begging not to be forsaken, by yourself (Matthew 27:46).

Sources

Daryl Fujii & Iqbal Ahmed. The Spectrum of Psychotic Disorders – Neurobiology, Etiology, and Pathogenesis. Cambridge University Press. (2003). p. 1.

William V. Good. M.D., Jefferson E. Nelson M.D & Don P. Bridge. D.D.S. Psychiatry Made Ridiculously Simple. MedMaster Inc. (1984) p. 9.

Ibid.

Ibid.

Norman Geisler & Thomas Howe. When Critics Ask: A Popular Handbook on Bible Difficulties. Baker Books. (1992). p. 3.

Rev. A. H. Sayce. The “Higher Criticism and the Verdict of the Monuments. E. & J.E Young and Co. (1894). p. 84; Bart D. Ehrman. From Jesus to Constantine: A History of Early Christianity. The Teaching Company. (2004). Lecture 2: Religious World of Early Christianity; Anthony Bananno. Archaeology and Fertility Cult in the Ancient Mediterranean. The University of Malta Press (1986). p. 238; John R. Bartlet. Archaeology and Biblical Interpretation. Routledge (1997). p. 61.

NOTE: Possible multiple personality disorder (Genesis 1:1, 1:29, 1:31, 1:27, 1:26, 3:22, 20:13, 35:7, Deuteronomy 32:16-17, 7:23, 1 Samuel 28:13, 2 Samuel 7:23, Psalms 58:12, 82:1)

William V. Good. M.D., Jefferson E. Nelson M.D & Don P. Bridge. D.D.S. Psychiatry Made Ridiculously Simple. MedMaster Inc. (1984) p. 9.

Ibid. p. 10

Ibid.

Ibid.

[xfrodobagginsx]

Ted;1511830 wrote: I have said it before but will repeat myself. Fundamentalism is not the religion that the apostles set up. It is so far from the ancient church. Literalism really took off about 1809 and so did the Of heaven and hell theology. It is not the Church set up in the Name of one Jesus of Nazareth


Fundamentalism is not a religion. It's the act of actually believing God's word and the Teachings of Christ as they were meant to be believed instead of trying to make it what we wish it to be. It is the ancient Church. It's insanity not to take Jesus at His word and the Bible at it's word. The underground Church, aka the AnaBaptists goes all the way back to Christ and were indeed fundamentalists. They are now called "Baptists". Read "The Trail of Blood". The true Church is made up of born again believers only. Going to Church doesn't make you God's child.

[Ted]

I'm sorry but that is rubbish. I want to talk about prophesy fulfilled. That to is nonsense. After the experience of Jesus of Nazareth they found him so incredible, and very human, that they decided he was the Messiah. Thus they went to the Old Testament and found things that seemed to fit but they were not in the least accurate. It say in the OT that a virgin, in the original has conceived a child.. The problem the word they translated as virgin had no implication of sex. It meant and still does "a young maiden". Nothing to do with having a child. Many times it is read "to fulfill prophesy so the ancients said the messiah would be born in Bethlehem so when they wrote the story they ignored the fact that he was born in Nazareth and had him born in Bethlehem. The experience of this Jesus was so profound they searched the ancient scriptures and made Jesus fit the ancient story. No he was not the fulfillment of prophesy that is how the story was written up.

[Ted]

Some folks love to live in a "Magic and Make Believe" world.

[xfrodobagginsx]

LarsMac;1511838 wrote: I was reading a piece from the Church of the Nazarene. They were explaining why they are not Fundamentalists. Actually, a very interesting perspective. I never attended a Nazarene church, but they all seem like decent folk.


I have visited Nazarene a Church. I am not one, but my friend was when I was younger. His father was the Pastor. I would consider them Fundamentalists, although I disagree with them on at least one major issue. All Fundamentalist means is that you actually believe the Bible for what it actually says rather than trying to add to it what you wish it meant.

[Ted]

Let's not forget the problem of literalism. The Bible was never meant to be read literally. In fact there can be multiple interpretations of a passage and all are valid. To read the Bible literaly is to make it a dead book and Christianity as a dead religion. We have to learn to face reality as it is. Corpses do not come out of the grave and walk around. That is the reality. Being blind is not referring to actual sight but those who refuse to accept the reality.

[xfrodobagginsx]

Saint_;1511850 wrote: Actually, the Angel Virgil, when giving Dante Aligheri a tour of Hell, tells him that you can leave Hell, once you have learned to hate evil, through a hole at the center that leads to Heaven.


Unfortunately, that is not in the Bible. The only reliable source for spiritual knowledge is the Bible.

[xfrodobagginsx]

LarsMac;1511860 wrote: You've been there?


God created hell. It is described in His Word, the Bible.

[xfrodobagginsx]

Ted;1511864 wrote: And to think this is the 21st cent.!!!!!!!


The spiritual still exists no matter what age you are living in. Spiritual activity is observed all over the world on a constant basis. Most people you will talk to will even admit experiencing it themselves.

[LarsMac]

xfrodobagginsx;1511945 wrote: The spiritual still exists no matter what age you are living in. Spiritual activity is observed all over the world on a constant basis. Most people you will talk to will even admit experiencing it themselves.


I think he is referring to the apparent ignorance.

[xfrodobagginsx]

Saint_;1511877 wrote: I have...It was called "Phoenix, Arizona."


"I went from Phoenix, Arizona all the way to Tacoma

Philadelphia, Atlanta, L.A.

Northern California where the girls are warm

So I could be with my sweet baby, yeah"



I've been to Phoenix Arizona, but it was a LOOOONG time ago.

[xfrodobagginsx]

Saint_;1511878 wrote: Actually, the Bible says in many places that Jesus was not God:



1. Matthew 24:36

No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.

Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.



That rendering could just be the way that the phrase is translated. The Bible clearly states that Jesus knows all things:

Joh 21:17 He said to him the third time, Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me? Peter was grieved because He said to him a third time, Do you love Me? And he said to Him, Lord, You know all things, You know that I love You. Jesus said to him, Feed My sheep

2. Matthew 26:39

My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.

Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

Jesus submits to the Father. Jesus knew the will of the Father. Nothing to worry about here

3. John 5:26

For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.

The Father gave Jesus His physical life, true. Jesus also said He was one with the Father.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

4. John 5:30

By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.

Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing. This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.

Jesus was not using His own power and was relying on the Father, although Jesus does have the power in Himself. He was an example for us.

5. John 5:19

The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.

Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

True, Jesus was expressing obedience to the Father. Jesus submits to the Father, the Holy Spirit submits to the Son.

6. Mark 10:18

Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.

Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God. He also admits he's not perfect or even without sin.

Jesus is without sin. This is actually a declaration that Jesus IS God. Think about that.

7. John 14:28

The Father is greater than I.

This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.



He makes this statement in the context that He submits to the Father's authority.

8. Matthew 6:9

Our Father, which art in Heaven.

He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!

I never argued that the Father wasn't in heaven. I know He is in heaven.

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

9. Matthew 27:46

My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

That was Christ speaking from His humanity to the Father.






You have made your Biblical arguments for why you believe Jesus isn't God. I will now show you that He IS in fact God in the flesh.



Jesus Christ IS God



There are some religions out there that believe and teach that Jesus Christ is not God. Some teach that He is a god, but not thee God. I am going to demonstrate through the word of God that He is God and created all things.

Jesus’s name “Immanuel LITERALLY means “God with us

Mt 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."

Isa 7:14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

He always existed (from everlasting):



Mic 5:2 (NKJV) "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, you are little among the thousands of Judah, [Yet] out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth [are] from of old, From everlasting."



This prophecy is of Christ's first comming. His Goings forth have been from everlasting because Christ Jesus is God.

Jesus Christ is one with the Father. He is God.



Joh 14:8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are one God:



1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Jesus declares Himself to be the great I AM of the Old Testiment. I AM is God's Name



Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."



I am IS God. There is only one God. That God has three parts.



Ex 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.



His Disciple/Apostle Peter Admits that Jesus knows “All things (Only God knows all things)



Joh 21:17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep.

Jesus Knows Our Thoughts

Mt 9:4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts?

Lu 11:17 But He, knowing their thoughts, said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and a house divided against a house falls.

In Him Dwells all of the fullness of the Godhead Bodily:

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. {rudiments: or, elements} {make a prey: or, seduce you, or, lead you astray} For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: {his...: Gr. the Son of his love}

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. {in...: or, among all} 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;



God's plurality is found in Genesis



Ge 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."



His Disciple/Apostle Thomas Confessed Him to be God and Jesus did NOT rebuke Him for it:



Joh 20:27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing."And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."



This verse demonstrates how God has multiple aspects. He said Let “US make man in “OUR image. He didn’t say, let me make man in My image, He said let US make man is OUR image.



His Apostle/Disciple John declares Christ Jesus to be God:



Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.



His Apostle/Disciple John declares that the world was made by Him (Jesus Christ)



Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.



All things were made by Him and He was in the beginning with God (Father)



Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.



There are MANY places where He is worshipped and Jesus NEVER tells them not to worship Him, NOT once. Only God is to be worshipped, because Jesus IS God, Jesus IS worshipped:



Mt 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. {presented: or, offered}

Mt 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Mt 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Mt 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Mt 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

Mt 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. {worshipped him: or, besought him}

Mt 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Mt 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Mr 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

Mr 15:19 And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him.

Lu 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

Joh 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

Ac 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.

Re 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Scripture refers to Him as the Lord, Jesus Christ. The phrase "The Lord" is unique only to God:

Here are a few mentioning "The Lord Your God"

De 5:6 I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. {bondage: Heb. servants}

De 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

De 5:11 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

De 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.



Here are many calling Him Jesus Christ, The Lord.

Ac 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Ac 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Ac 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Ac 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Ro 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ro 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Ro 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

1Co 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

2Co 1:2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. >

Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Php 1:2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: {conversation...: or, we live or conduct ourselves as citizens of heaven, or, for obtaining heaven}



Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Trinity (Three in one)

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Father, Son and Spirit Present at Christ’s Baptism:

Mt 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Conclusion: Jesus Christ is God. Not a God but the God of the bible. God has three parts. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. All are equal, yet the Son is submissive to the Father and the Holy Spirit is submissive to the Son. Jesus Christ was an EXAMPLE for us. He died on the cross for our sins so that we could go to heaven and be forgiven of our sins. He shed His blood for us.

[Fuzzy]

xfrodobagginsx;1511944 wrote: God created hell. It is described in His Word, the Bible.


God created hell, but he loves us.

[xfrodobagginsx]

Fuzzy;1511951 wrote: God created hell, but he loves us.


It wasn't created for us, but He has no where else to send those who refuse to accept the pardon He provides for us through Jesus Christ:

Mt 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ' Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

[LarsMac]

Fuzzy;1511951 wrote: God created hell, but he loves us.


xfrodobagginsx;1511952 wrote: It wasn't created for us, but He has no where else to send those who refuse to accept the pardon He provides for us through Jesus Christ:

Mt 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ' Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:


God did not create Hell. It is a totally man-made concept.

[Fuzzy]

xfrodobagginsx;1511952 wrote: It wasn't created for us, but He has no where else to send those who refuse to accept the pardon He provides for us through Jesus Christ:

Mt 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ' Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:


You religious people are so full of ****, just like the particular imaginary, invisible friend you carry on about.

[Ted]

LarsMac I am in agreement with that. Hell is indeed a man made concept.

[Ted]

Fuzzy there you go tarring every Christian with the same brush. Thus not true.

[xfrodobagginsx]

Ted;1511889 wrote: Xftrod. Only about 16% of the words attributed to Jesus actually go back to hime. The rest aree the words put into the mouth of Jesus by the evangelists who wrote the gospels. So I do not believe the Bible to be in and of its self the word off God. It becomes the Word of God for some Christians begums The word of God for some Christians because God seems to speak to them through the very human words of the Bible... It always amazes me how many "Christians" keep trying to tell God how he should behave. It is laughable. In the New Testament tells us that "He will be merciful to whom He will be Merciful". Then of Course in John 16 He is reported to have said that the Holy Spirit will come to lead us into all truth. Here again it is amazing how many folks try to tell God what he can and can't do.


False. 100% of the words in the Bible that are attributed to Him go back to Him via the actual eyewitnesses who were actually there. God is the one who says what He can do and can't do: Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Mt 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Lu 18:27 But He said, "The things which are impossible with men are possible with God."

[Ted]

The apostles were dead by the time of the writing of the gospels..

[Fuzzy]

Ted;1511969 wrote: Fuzzy there you go tarring every Christian with the same brush. Thus not true.


It is true. I've read it in a book that was inspired by logic.

[Ted]

Fuzzy then the writer doesn't know what he/she is talking about. Same with Dawkins. According to M. Borg there are about 30000 variations or denominations on the Christian faith' This is also supported by many scholars.

[Fuzzy]

Ted;1511984 wrote: Fuzzy then the writer doesn't know what he/she is talking about. Same with Dawkins. According to M. Borg there are about 30000 variations or denominations on the Christian faith' This is also supported by many scholars.


If the writers of the bible are deemed to be 100% correct, then why not every other book ever written? After all, the bible is full of fairy stories.

[Ted]

I have never claimed the Bible is inerrant because I do not believe it is. Nor do many scholars and many churches. That is an issue of the past for many. dUnfortunately It is not so for the fundamentalists and some others. That is changing.

[xfrodobagginsx]

I have been on here for the last 30 minutes answering some big posts only to have the computer crash twice. I will continue tomorrow. Frustrating!

[xfrodobagginsx]

Ted;1511907 wrote: I'm sorry but that is rubbish. I want to talk about prophesy fulfilled. That to is nonsense. After the experience of Jesus of Nazareth they found him so incredible, and very human, that they decided he was the Messiah. Thus they went to the Old Testament and found things that seemed to fit but they were not in the least accurate. It say in the OT that a virgin, in the original has conceived a child.. The problem the word they translated as virgin had no implication of sex. It meant and still does "a young maiden". Nothing to do with having a child. Many times it is read "to fulfill prophesy so the ancients said the messiah would be born in Bethlehem so when they wrote the story they ignored the fact that he was born in Nazareth and had him born in Bethlehem. The experience of this Jesus was so profound they searched the ancient scriptures and made Jesus fit the ancient story. No he was not the fulfillment of prophesy that is how the story was written up.


You really think that all of the eyewitnesses got together and made the prophecies of Jesus fit in the NT? If that were true, then why hasn't anyone from Christ's day denied any of the eyewitness testimony? Why aren't there any writings from His day saying "That's not true..."? The fact of the matter is that the historical writings from His day affirm scripture.

Did Isaiah Prophesy the Virgin Birth of Christ?

https://www.christiancourier.com/articl ... -of-christ

[Fuzzy]

Bible Lessons They Don't Teach You In Sunday School

In the books of Matthew and Mark in the Bible, there is a rather strange story about Jesus having a bit of a conflict with....a fig tree. Figs are yummy and all, but this is pretty extreme. This fig tree didn't have any fruit on it - because it wasn't actually fig season yet - and Jesus was hungry. So what's a hungry god-man to do? Curse the tree so it will never bear fruit again of course! Damn tree.

Matthew 21:18-20 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered. When the disciples saw this, they were amazed.

Mark 11:12-14 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it.

Jesus was apparently a pretty cryptic guy - or the people writing down his words were - either way, there are quite a few stories like this in the Bible (and that's excluding the book of Revelation which is its own brand of crazy). But God was downright sadistic. Let's take a look at some lessons found in the Bible that most people probably didn't learn in Sunday School.



1. God has a thing with sex and genitals

> Maybe it's because he doesn't get to have it, but according to the Bible, God uses sex (and genitals) to control or punish people more than once. Using rape, incest and circumcision to teach lessons would not be allowed with humans, but apparently it's totally cool for God to do it.

God established the practice of male circumcision as proof of the people's willingness to obey him pretty early on.

Genesis 17:10-12 This is my agreement with you and all your descendants, which you must obey: Every male among you must be circumcised. Cut away your foreskin to show that you are prepared to follow the agreement between me and you. From now on when a baby boy is eight days old, you will circumcise him. This includes any boy born among your people or any who is your slave, who is not one of your descendants.

> David, the future king and the man chosen by God to defeat the Philistines (of David and Goliath fame), went out with his men and killed 200 Philistines and "collected" their foreskins, then used them as the payment for marrying King Saul's daughter, Michal. Now that's what I call an engagement present.

1 Samuel 18:24-26 When Saul's servants told him what David had said, Saul said, "Tell David, 'The king doesn't want money for the bride. All he wants is a hundred Philistine foreskins to get even with his enemies.'" Saul planned to let the Philistines kill David. When Saul's servants told this to David, he was pleased to become the king's son-in-law. So he and his men went out and killed two hundred Philistines. David brought all their foreskins to Saul so he could be the king's son-in-law. Then Saul gave him his daughter Michal for his wife.

> God commanded rape in so many places in the Bible it's hard to pick just one, but a passage in 2 Samuel is pretty bad and is a great example of God using rape and child murder as a punishment.

2 Samuel 12:11-14 "This is what the Lord says: 'I am bringing trouble to you from your own family. While you watch, I will take your wives from you and give them to someone who is very close to you. He will have sexual relations with your wives, and everyone will know it. You had sexual relations with Bathsheba in secret, but I will do this so all the people of Israel can see it.'" Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered, "The Lord has taken away your sin. You will not die. But what you did caused the Lord's enemies to lose all respect for him. For this reason the son who was born to you will die."

> God even commanded a raped woman to marry her attacker.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged to be married and forces her to have sexual relations with him and people find out about it, the man must pay the girl's father about one and one-fourth pounds of silver. He must also marry the girl, because he has dishonored her, and he may never divorce her for as long as he lives.

2. ...and on that note, it's pretty clear that God really hates women... A LOT

> Aside from all the raping, even a quick reading of the Bible reveals that God hates women. This can be easily explained using cultural context and by looking at who actually wrote the Bible and when - but it seems if God is perfect, he would teach people not to be sexist a-holes. But in both the New and Old Testaments, the Bible teaches us otherwise. In 1 Corinthians 14 and 1 Timothy 2, women are told not to talk and Titus is practically a how-to manual on being a good, quiet and submissive Christian woman. In fact, most of the epistles are totally sexist.

1 Corinthians 14:34-36 women should keep quiet in the church meetings. They are not allowed to speak, but they must yield to this rule as the law says. If they want to learn something, they should ask their own husbands at home. It is shameful for a woman to speak in the church meeting. Did God's teaching come from you? Or are you the only ones to whom it has come?

1 Timothy 2:9-12 Also, women should wear proper clothes that show respect and self-control, not using braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes. Instead, they should do good deeds, which is right for women who say they worship God. Let a woman learn by listening quietly and being ready to cooperate in everything. But I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to listen quietly,

3. He also doesn't seem too fond of the unborn, infants and children

> Not only does the Bible tell of infanticide, abortion and child murder, it actually tells us God, or his representatives at his behest, commanded it. Not cool God, not cool at all.

The prophet Hosea spoke of pregnant women being ripped open and children being torn to pieces because the nation of Israel had "fought against God."

Hosea 13:16 The nation of Israel will be ruined, because it fought against God. The people of Israel will die in war; their children will be torn to pieces, and their pregnant women will be ripped open."

> And Jeremiah told of a time when God would destroy the city and make people so hungry that they would eat their kids.

Jeremiah 19:9 An enemy army will surround the city and will not let anyone go out to get food. I will make the people so hungry that they will eat the bodies of their own sons and daughters, and then they will begin to eat each other.'

As an interesting side note, the historian Flavius Josephus told of Jews starving in Jerusalem during the Roman siege of 70 CE who actually did eat their own children.



...and perhaps one of the most disturbing is Psalm (a song of celebration) 137 in which the psalmist is proclaiming retribution by smashing babies against rocks. Very uplifting.

Psalm 137:8-9 People of Babylon, you will be destroyed. The people who pay you back for what you did to us will be happy. They will grab your babies and throw them against the rocks.

4. When God likes you, you can get away with ANYTHING

> King David, Cain, all the prophets, all the apostles, Noah, Adam, King Saul...they all committed atrocious acts of violence, greed, sexism, racism, etc. You name it, at least one of them did it, often multiple times. And yet the Bible tells us God blessed them with money and/or power and the apostles were the ones who essentially established the Christian religion...hmmm...



5. When God doesn't like you, you're probably dead, and your death will probably be creative

> Lot's wife turned into a salty version of her former self just because she looked back on her hometown from which she was fleeing because...well...because God was pissed off and was destroying it with burning sulfur.

Genesis 19:26 At that point Lot's wife looked back. When she did, she became a pillar of salt.

> People got swallowed up by giant cracks in the earth.

Numbers 16:32 The earth opened and swallowed them and all their families. All Korah's men and everything they owned went down.

> 42 Kids got mauled by two mother bears because they mocked the baldness of one of the prophets (no joke).

2 Kings 2:23-24 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. On the way some boys came out of the city and made fun of him. They said to him, "Go up too, you baldhead! Go up too, you baldhead!" Elisha turned around, looked at them, and put a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two mother bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys to pieces.

...and a bonus: Mark 14 tells of a disciple at the time of Jesus' arrest who was only wearing a towel which was grabbed off him and he ran away naked. Yep. Naked. Who was he? No one knows...in the Bible is a naked mystery man.

Mark 14:51-52 A young man, wearing only a linen cloth, was following Jesus, and the people also grabbed him. But the cloth he was wearing came off, and he ran away naked.

Where do Christians get the image of a loving, just God who wants to bless and heal people and give them peace on earth and good will toward men? It definitely isn't from a simple reading of the Bible. Even though the Bible continues to be a very highly sold book, it's probably safe to say that most people, even Christians, haven't read everything that's in it. This alone makes it easy for Christian leaders now and throughout history, to tell people pretty much anything about God and get them to believe it. And of course a benevolent god is a being more appealing on which to establish a religion.

The Bible contains many inconvenient stories, passages and lessons. This inconvenience is even a reason apologists will give for its validity. The argument goes something like this, "If people wanted to invent a god and a holy book, wouldn't it make sense to make it beautiful and perfect? Its imperfection and difficult passages are evidence that it's real." Apologetics aside, today in the developed world, most of the more disturbing or unbelievable scriptures in the Bible are explained away as "metaphor" or "culturally unique". But the truth is that there are some really messed up lessons in the Bible that aren't limited to a handful of goofy verses and the most sadistic behavior is modeled by God himself.

[Ted]

Fuzzy an excellent post. I was just reading the works of theologian Marcus Borg who in fact points to many of these. He was pointing out that the Bible is wrong in many places. Without getting into an argument Marcus Borg still finds most of the Bible valuable. It is a very human construction. According to Spong it is=was never intended to be read literally. And yes the word metaphor is used. The ancients did not complain about the Bible because they new it was Midrash. Let us not forget the many contradictions which become meaningless when seen as midrash. Look at Numbers 31 where God promotes war crimes.

[Ted]

Xfrod. The names appended to the gospels were added later the Gospels are not eyewitness accounts. That is ludicrous Life expectancy in those days was on average 35 years. The gospels were written long after that so the writers had to be dead. This in no way destroys the gospels. It simply history. The names appended to the gospels were a few hundred years after..

[xfrodobagginsx]

LarsMac;1511954 wrote: God did not create Hell. It is a totally man-made concept.


God created hell for the devil and his angels. You obviously don't believe the scripture.

[Ted]

Something does not have to be factually accurate to be true. The parables of Jesus were made up stories to make a point. That point was true. The Bible is like that. The book is metaphorical.

[xfrodobagginsx]

Ted;1511968 wrote: LarsMac I am in agreement with that. Hell is indeed a man made concept.


If you don't believe what the Bible says, than I guess you can make up whatever you want to believe. If you actually believe the Bible, then you must believe in hell.

[LarsMac]

xfrodobagginsx;1512053 wrote: If you don't believe what the Bible says, than I guess you can make up whatever you want to believe. If you actually believe the Bible, then you must believe in hell.


Show me where the Bible actually says Hell is real.

[Ted]

The Bible is foundational for Christianity but there are many places where it is wrong. At least I do not have to hang up my brain on the coat rack before I enter church. Metaphor gives us a greater than meaning. God had to walk through the garden and then had to ask where Adam and Eve were!! He/She/ It is supposed to know everything. A literal reading of the Bible is pure nonsense. A literal meaning makes the Bible "Magic and Make Believe".

[Ted]

Heaven is right here on earth. It is an hoped for ideal world where God reigns instead of the present authorities. Is there life after death? No one has come back to tell us. So we wait in hope in the true sense of the word "hope". I guess when it comes to the afterlife I'm an agnostic.

[xfrodobagginsx]

Ted;1511984 wrote: Fuzzy then the writer doesn't know what he/she is talking about. Same with Dawkins. According to M. Borg there are about 30000 variations or denominations on the Christian faith' This is also supported by many scholars.


There are many variations of Christianity because many times they split on the smallest if doctrinal differences. Other times it's due to major issues with the fundamental doctrines. Catholics don't follow the Bible completely. They also rely on Church history and tradition. Fundamentalists such as myself, trust the inspired scriptures as the ultimate authority and God's word.

[Ted]

Xfrod many of those varieties believe they have the only handle on the truth. Of course I do not accept the Bible as the inerrant word of God. In my view that refers to one, the risen one. And thus tJesus as the word trumps the Bible.

[xfrodobagginsx]

Fuzzy;1511992 wrote: If the writers of the bible are deemed to be 100% correct, then why not every other book ever written? After all, the bible is full of fairy stories.


Because there is no other book written over a 1600 year period, in different parts of the world, within different walks of life (Rich and Poor), Educated and non educated, many of whom didn't have access to the other's writings where it all fits together as one book and claims to be the word of God and then backs it up with hundreds of fulfilled prophecies.

[Fuzzy]

Noah’s Ark

By - Robert Poe

I was told this story as a child as if it was some fun children’s story. Essentially, God made flawed creations and then commands them to be perfect. Then, because they aren’t being perfect, he decides to ruthlessly murder every creature except the ones on the ark. What a petty and malicious God to go along with an already horrible story. It sounds like a capricious child playing with ants on a sidewalk. And, why do all of the other creatures on earth have to die for this God to murder the humans? Couldn’t the omnipotent one come up with a better plan for their extermination? If this were true then the God of the bible would be worse than Hitler, in that he committed mass genocides so that he could breed his ultimate race. His prejudice, jealousy, and mistake in creation shows that this God would certainly not be omniscient or omnipotent. The God of the Bible also had no quarrel with slavery. As a matter of fact, he supported it and instructed one on how to attain, hold, and treat their slaves.

[Ted]

Fuzzy I love it. Great post.

[Ted]

Xfrod if youi knew anything about history you would know that the writers of the Bible were all from the middle east. This is the 21st Cent??????????? This kind of thinking is way back before the medieval period.

[Fuzzy]

Why do I get the feeling that Frodo has a vested interest in spreading an ancient outdated belief system?

[xfrodobagginsx]

Ted;1512000 wrote: I have never claimed the Bible is inerrant because I do not believe it is. Nor do many scholars and many churches. That is an issue of the past for many. dUnfortunately It is not so for the fundamentalists and some others. That is changing.


Most Churches and Scholars do believe it to be inerrant, but you have to define what you mean. Are there punctuation differences, mild errors in some of the transcripts, yes, but when you take thousands of manuscripts and compare them, it's easy to see which ones are correct. Most of the differences are merely spelling differences of the same word, ect. None of the differences change any doctrines of the Bible. Not big issues at all.

[xfrodobagginsx]

Fuzzy;1512034 wrote: Bible Lessons They Don't Teach You In Sunday School

In the books of Matthew and Mark in the Bible, there is a rather strange story about Jesus having a bit of a conflict with....a fig tree. Figs are yummy and all, but this is pretty extreme. This fig tree didn't have any fruit on it - because it wasn't actually fig season yet - and Jesus was hungry. So what's a hungry god-man to do? Curse the tree so it will never bear fruit again of course! Damn tree.



This goes to show that you are spiritually ignorant. The "Fig Tree" doesn't bare fruit represents the person claiming to be a believer who doesn't bare fruit. A true believer will bare fruit. Those who don't bare fruit are cursed into the lake of fire because they are not truly children of God.

Matthew 21:18-20 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered. When the disciples saw this, they were amazed.

Mark 11:12-14 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it.

Jesus was apparently a pretty cryptic guy - or the people writing down his words were - either way, there are quite a few stories like this in the Bible (and that's excluding the book of Revelation which is its own brand of crazy). But God was downright sadistic. Let's take a look at some lessons found in the Bible that most people probably didn't learn in Sunday School.

The reason that you see God as somehow sadistic to this souless, mindless plant is because you have a carnal mind. The carnal mind is at war with God. You need to be born again and have your dead spirit resurrected.

Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 ¶ And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.



1. God has a thing with sex and genitals

> Maybe it's because he doesn't get to have it, but according to the Bible, God uses sex (and genitals) to control or punish people more than once. Using rape, incest and circumcision to teach lessons would not be allowed with humans, but apparently it's totally cool for God to do it.



Blashemy and a lie also. God never advocates rape. Incest was allowed up until the law was given because the DNA wasn't corrupted to the point that it is today until then. Remember that Adam and Eve's kids had no one else to marry than their siblings. Circumcision was advocated by God to set apart His people.

God established the practice of male circumcision as proof of the people's willingness to obey him pretty early on.

Genesis 17:10-12 This is my agreement with you and all your descendants, which you must obey: Every male among you must be circumcised. Cut away your foreskin to show that you are prepared to follow the agreement between me and you. From now on when a baby boy is eight days old, you will circumcise him. This includes any boy born among your people or any who is your slave, who is not one of your descendants.



Interestingly, 8 days old is, according to modern science and Doctors, the perfect time for a circumcision because the blood clots the most in your entire life on that very day.

> David, the future king and the man chosen by God to defeat the Philistines (of David and Goliath fame), went out with his men and killed 200 Philistines and "collected" their foreskins, then used them as the payment for marrying King Saul's daughter, Michal. Now that's what I call an engagement present.

That had nothing to do with God. That was David.

1 Samuel 18:24-26 When Saul's servants told him what David had said, Saul said, "Tell David, 'The king doesn't want money for the bride. All he wants is a hundred Philistine foreskins to get even with his enemies.'" Saul planned to let the Philistines kill David. When Saul's servants told this to David, he was pleased to become the king's son-in-law. So he and his men went out and killed two hundred Philistines. David brought all their foreskins to Saul so he could be the king's son-in-law. Then Saul gave him his daughter Michal for his wife.

True. Where is God mentioned in this paragraph?

> God commanded rape in so many places in the Bible it's hard to pick just one, but a passage in 2 Samuel is pretty bad and is a great example of God using rape and child murder as a punishment.

2 Samuel 12:11-14 "This is what the Lord says: 'I am bringing trouble to you from your own family. While you watch, I will take your wives from you and give them to someone who is very close to you. He will have sexual relations with your wives, and everyone will know it. You had sexual relations with Bathsheba in secret, but I will do this so all the people of Israel can see it.'" Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered, "The Lord has taken away your sin. You will not die. But what you did caused the Lord's enemies to lose all respect for him. For this reason the son who was born to you will die."

This was a punishment to David for what He did. God allowed this to happen. Since He is God, He is wiser and smarter than you. It wasn't in God's original plan for this to happen.

> God even commanded a raped woman to marry her attacker.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged to be married and forces her to have sexual relations with him and people find out about it, the man must pay the girl's father about one and one-fourth pounds of silver. He must also marry the girl, because he has dishonored her, and he may never divorce her for as long as he lives.

Again you show your ignorance of the culture in those days. Women had no rights in those days culturally. If a man wanted a women, he went to the Father and made a deal with him for her hand in marriage.

2. ...and on that note, it's pretty clear that God really hates women... A LOT

Not true. It was man's culture that dishonored women.

> Aside from all the raping, even a quick reading of the Bible reveals that God hates women. This can be easily explained using cultural context and by looking at who actually wrote the Bible and when - but it seems if God is perfect, he would teach people not to be sexist a-holes. But in both the New and Old Testaments, the Bible teaches us otherwise. In 1 Corinthians 14 and 1 Timothy 2, women are told not to talk and Titus is practically a how-to manual on being a good, quiet and submissive Christian woman. In fact, most of the epistles are totally sexist.

Women have a role in society and so do men. It's not out of hatred for women that they aren't permitted to talk, it's because a women is not to be in authority over a man. Eve is the one who was decieved of satan in the garden of Eden. A woman's role is to submit to her husband and not to try and take charge over men. There must be an order to things or society will become chaotic as it is today thanks to the women's movement which I believe was prophecied by Paul: 2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

1 Corinthians 14:34-36 women should keep quiet in the church meetings. They are not allowed to speak, but they must yield to this rule as the law says. If they want to learn something, they should ask their own husbands at home. It is shameful for a woman to speak in the church meeting. Did God's teaching come from you? Or are you the only ones to whom it has come?

1 Timothy 2:9-12 Also, women should wear proper clothes that show respect and self-control, not using braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes. Instead, they should do good deeds, which is right for women who say they worship God. Let a woman learn by listening quietly and being ready to cooperate in everything. But I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to listen quietly,

True because God has created an order to things. It's not because women aren't to be respected or it's not that they aren't intelligent or important. It's their role in society.

3. He also doesn't seem too fond of the unborn, infants and children

This is a joke right? It's the liberal murdering abortionists who aren't fond of the unborn, infants and children.

> Not only does the Bible tell of infanticide, abortion and child murder, it actually tells us God, or his representatives at his behest, commanded it. Not cool God, not cool at all.

The prophet Hosea spoke of pregnant women being ripped open and children being torn to pieces because the nation of Israel had "fought against God."

Hosea 13:16 The nation of Israel will be ruined, because it fought against God. The people of Israel will die in war; their children will be torn to pieces, and their pregnant women will be ripped open."

That doesn't mean that God advocates it. It means that God will allow them to be over taken because they turned away from Him, so He isn't going to help them in this instance. They acted toward God like you are acting right now.

> And Jeremiah told of a time when God would destroy the city and make people so hungry that they would eat their kids.

Jeremiah 19:9 An enemy army will surround the city and will not let anyone go out to get food. I will make the people so hungry that they will eat the bodies of their own sons and daughters, and then they will begin to eat each other.'

Again, God was allowing it because Israel turned away from Him. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you don't want the Lord to be your God, don't expect Him to help you when bad things come.

As an interesting side note, the historian Flavius Josephus told of Jews starving in Jerusalem during the Roman siege of 70 CE who actually did eat their own children.

Again, that was a punishment that was allowed to happen to the Jews. God's protection was lifted because they turned on Him and crucified His Son Jesus. He gave them years and years to repent and they would not so He allowed their enemies to rule over them. God didn't want that.

...and perhaps one of the most disturbing is Psalm (a song of celebration) 137 in which the psalmist is proclaiming retribution by smashing babies against rocks. Very uplifting.

Psalm 137:8-9 People of Babylon, you will be destroyed. The people who pay you back for what you did to us will be happy. They will grab your babies and throw them against the rocks.

4. When God likes you, you can get away with ANYTHING

> King David, Cain, all the prophets, all the apostles, Noah, Adam, King Saul...they all committed atrocious acts of violence, greed, sexism, racism, etc. You name it, at least one of them did it, often multiple times. And yet the Bible tells us God blessed them with money and/or power and the apostles were the ones who essentially established the Christian religion...hmmm...

You are showing your ignorance again.

First of all Cain was not blessed of God he was cursed. King Saul was blessed until he turned away from God and was then cursed. Noah didn't do anything really bad except get drunk. Adam ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. King David slept with another man's wife and had her husband killed. The ones blessed, which many that you ignorantly listed were not blessed and were cursed by God for their sins. The others were men of F A I T H who actually believed God and followed His ways to the best of their ability. Yes, they still sinned and sometimes they sinned big, but they trusted in the Lord and He forgave them of their sins.



5. When God doesn't like you, you're probably dead, and your death will probably be creative

> Lot's wife turned into a salty version of her former self just because she looked back on her hometown from which she was fleeing because...well...because God was pissed off and was destroying it with burning sulfur.

She was judged by God for looking back at that city and disobeying Him. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Genesis 19:26 At that point Lot's wife looked back. When she did, she became a pillar of salt.

Yep

> People got swallowed up by giant cracks in the earth.

Numbers 16:32 The earth opened and swallowed them and all their families. All Korah's men and everything they owned went down.

Those people that were swallowed into the earth were openly in rebellion against God and leading others to do so. They refused to repent for what they did after all that God had done for them.

> 42 Kids got mauled by two mother bears because they mocked the baldness of one of the prophets (no joke).

2 Kings 2:23-24 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. On the way some boys came out of the city and made fun of him. They said to him, "Go up too, you baldhead! Go up too, you baldhead!" Elisha turned around, looked at them, and put a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two mother bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys to pieces.

Lesson to learn: Don't disrespect a prophet of God. Maybe you should think about respecting God and His word too.

...and a bonus: Mark 14 tells of a disciple at the time of Jesus' arrest who was only wearing a towel which was grabbed off him and he ran away naked. Yep. Naked. Who was he? No one knows...in the Bible is a naked mystery man.

Mark 14:51-52 A young man, wearing only a linen cloth, was following Jesus, and the people also grabbed him. But the cloth he was wearing came off, and he ran away naked.

Where does it say that God advocated this? This is a statement of fact, not an endorsement from God.

Where do Christians get the image of a loving, just God who wants to bless and heal people and give them peace on earth and good will toward men? It definitely isn't from a simple reading of the Bible. Even though the Bible continues to be a very highly sold book, it's probably safe to say that most people, even Christians, haven't read everything that's in it. This alone makes it easy for Christian leaders now and throughout history, to tell people pretty much anything about God and get them to believe it. And of course a benevolent god is a being more appealing on which to establish a religion.

The Bible contains many inconvenient stories, passages and lessons. This inconvenience is even a reason apologists will give for its validity. The argument goes something like this, "If people wanted to invent a god and a holy book, wouldn't it make sense to make it beautiful and perfect? Its imperfection and difficult passages are evidence that it's real." Apologetics aside, today in the developed world, most of the more disturbing or unbelievable scriptures in the Bible are explained away as "metaphor" or "culturally unique". But the truth is that there are some really messed up lessons in the Bible that aren't limited to a handful of goofy verses and the most sadistic behavior is modeled by God himself.

Interestingly, had the Bible actually been written by the will of man, any inconvenience would have been left out. Secondly, the bible records events that happened, that doesn't necesarily mean that God approves of what happened. Factual telling of events isn't approval. Sometimes God did allow things as judgement. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. You should learn that.




My responses are in bold above