oscar;1424815 wrote: As In the same manner you dismissed my table showing three governments prior shut more mines than her?
I didn't dismiss it I just ignored it as you were just dodging answering the quetions put to you. It is something I was well aware of. What she did that those previous governments did was deliberately seek out confrontation and use the police to quell demonstrators. I'm also well aware of the flying pickets and some of their rather disreputable tactics just as I am aware of her bussing in workers under police protection to try and break strikes.
posted by halfway
I also liked her stance against socialism / communism. She helped destroy one of the biggest threats to personal freedom the world has ever seen (USSR).
I suspect you are american since you seem to conflate socialism and communism. Post ww2 a string of socialist governments brought in the welfare state and the national health service backed by the obverwhelming majority of the british people who wholesale refused to go back to the way things had been before the war with people starvng on te streets and people being denied proper medical care because of poverty and employers beng able to sack people on a whim. Thatcherism would destroy that legacy, that sense of community that were are all in it together. The majority of people in the UK accept socialist ideas at least in part. Unlike the states it is not some kind of bete noir - no offenc but amricans can' seem to get theior hads round the concept that socialism has a part to play in european politics. Hitler and mussolini were fascists and lost but fascism is still there like a cancer and the old rguments keo coming back in new guises. The british communist party has never been affiliated to the labour party and never really made much headway. Marx was wrong with his viklutionary theory, and you will find many socialist who will explain to you why though you should perhaps do your own study on the matter.
Even now there are those in the tory party who would privatise the NHS, sadly new labour did nothing to change thatchers reforms and indeed made things worse. She has had a baleful influence on british politics.
As to the bringing down of the iron curtain I think that is more due to east europeans and the restraint shown by gorbachev in not using fiorce than anything thatcher did. The notion that they were just waiting for thatcher to give thm the nod is ridiculous The irony of her lauding lech walesa while at the same time destroying the unions in the UK was not lost oon people in the UK at the time. The even sillier one is that she helped end apartheid. Like Reagan she supported the white south african regime and if anything prolonged it
Thatcher's apartheid legacy still stirs anger in South Africa - Africa - nation.co.ke
Thatcher's apartheid legacy still stirs anger in South Africa
But whether Thatcher helped prop-up apartheid or slow-peddled against it by advocating engagement with the regime, it is a distinction without a difference to most South Africans.
With the notable exception of South Africa's last apartheid-era president FW de Klerk, who will attend her funeral, and his white government colleagues, most in the country believe Thatcher found herself on the wrong side of history.
Margaret Thatcher Dead
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Patsy Warnick
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halfway
I understand you'd like flowers & rainbows and peace thru the valley - now reality.
You can't seriously think you can tell people in the UK how to feel.?
Unless you've had the rug pulled out from underneath you and dealt with the consequences then you can't.
With the death of Thatcher & a funeral tax payers paid for - it all came to a head.
There is no manual on how long one should feel bitter - mad etc.
There is no manual on how long one should mourn. You can't say - Buzz times up..
Thatcher's decisions did not directly affect you or me - you didn't live with the aftermath.
Take this thread as a learning tool - I'm assuming your in the US .?
The everyday blue collar worker here in the US did not know how the UK felt with Thatcher in office.
Will there be peace in the valley - eventually - life moves on - other headaches surface.
Just try to understand before criticism.
These are nice people with strong views - they survived it - we didn't.
Peace
Patsy
I understand you'd like flowers & rainbows and peace thru the valley - now reality.
You can't seriously think you can tell people in the UK how to feel.?
Unless you've had the rug pulled out from underneath you and dealt with the consequences then you can't.
With the death of Thatcher & a funeral tax payers paid for - it all came to a head.
There is no manual on how long one should feel bitter - mad etc.
There is no manual on how long one should mourn. You can't say - Buzz times up..
Thatcher's decisions did not directly affect you or me - you didn't live with the aftermath.
Take this thread as a learning tool - I'm assuming your in the US .?
The everyday blue collar worker here in the US did not know how the UK felt with Thatcher in office.
Will there be peace in the valley - eventually - life moves on - other headaches surface.
Just try to understand before criticism.
These are nice people with strong views - they survived it - we didn't.
Peace
Patsy
Margaret Thatcher Dead
Patsy Warnick;1424852 wrote: halfway
You can't seriously think you can tell people in the UK how to feel.?
I think you may have become confused.
I stated how "I" feel.
You can't seriously think you can tell people in the UK how to feel.?
I think you may have become confused.
I stated how "I" feel.
My Journal of a New Endeavor
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Patsy Warnick
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Halfway
1st it was the horse ordeal during the funeral - a protestor threw a water bottle
Anne state use marbles it's more effective. sarcastic
Do you really think either Anne or Oscar wanted the animals hurt.?
You have a halo over Thatcher - you didn't live with the aftermath from decisions.
You've jumped into this thread alittle late - not sure if you've taken the time to read this thread throughout.? But it's irrelevant what you think of Thatcher or what I think of Thatcher.
No, I'm not confused - I understand if your shocked at the hatred shown towards to Thatcher - this thread has been educational for all in the US.
Please take the time to read.
Patsy
1st it was the horse ordeal during the funeral - a protestor threw a water bottle
Anne state use marbles it's more effective. sarcastic
Do you really think either Anne or Oscar wanted the animals hurt.?
You have a halo over Thatcher - you didn't live with the aftermath from decisions.
You've jumped into this thread alittle late - not sure if you've taken the time to read this thread throughout.? But it's irrelevant what you think of Thatcher or what I think of Thatcher.
No, I'm not confused - I understand if your shocked at the hatred shown towards to Thatcher - this thread has been educational for all in the US.
Please take the time to read.
Patsy
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Oscar Namechange
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Patsy Warnick;1424852 wrote:
These are nice people with strong views - they survived it - we didn't.
Peace
PatsySurvived what Patsy?
These are nice people with strong views - they survived it - we didn't.
Peace
PatsySurvived what Patsy?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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halfway;1424855 wrote: I think you may have become confused.
I stated how "I" feel. This Is what we survived prior to Thatcher coming to power. We did not survive anything under Thatcher that wasn't needed although I concede the Poll Tax was ill advised.
Thatcher And The Winter Of Discontent - Business Insider
See the pictures of how It was before Thatcher? The country was bankrupt, on the brink of economic meltdown and your average man could not feed his children because militant strike action led to power cuts and black outs. Even the Crematoriums couldn't cremate the dead because we ran out of electricity. So, no, Patsy, we did not survive Thatcher, we survived what went before her under previous governments. People like gmc bang on because the North was the hardest hit when the mines were shut down. But ask yourself this.... Do you really believe If she was hated as much as some would lead you to believe, would she have been democratically voted In for 3 terms of office and make no mistake, If her own party had not turned against her, she would have been In a 4th time.
Yes, miners lost their jobs but they were unproductive. Three previous governments closed more mines than Thatcher did In her 12 years. The mines were running at a loss and due to previous socialist parties, we In the main paid for by the taxpayer to keep them open. Yet, the miners union held the country to ransom for more and more wage Increases up to 30% and continual Industrial action was damaging the economy. The miners closed their own mines when the country became sick to death of aggresive militant strike action that saw schools closed for weeks at a time...
The mere fact that Thatcher's policy's were Implemented by the Blair government following her and are Implemented today within the Coalition, hardly ' survived her' Is It ?
I stated how "I" feel. This Is what we survived prior to Thatcher coming to power. We did not survive anything under Thatcher that wasn't needed although I concede the Poll Tax was ill advised.
Thatcher And The Winter Of Discontent - Business Insider
See the pictures of how It was before Thatcher? The country was bankrupt, on the brink of economic meltdown and your average man could not feed his children because militant strike action led to power cuts and black outs. Even the Crematoriums couldn't cremate the dead because we ran out of electricity. So, no, Patsy, we did not survive Thatcher, we survived what went before her under previous governments. People like gmc bang on because the North was the hardest hit when the mines were shut down. But ask yourself this.... Do you really believe If she was hated as much as some would lead you to believe, would she have been democratically voted In for 3 terms of office and make no mistake, If her own party had not turned against her, she would have been In a 4th time.
Yes, miners lost their jobs but they were unproductive. Three previous governments closed more mines than Thatcher did In her 12 years. The mines were running at a loss and due to previous socialist parties, we In the main paid for by the taxpayer to keep them open. Yet, the miners union held the country to ransom for more and more wage Increases up to 30% and continual Industrial action was damaging the economy. The miners closed their own mines when the country became sick to death of aggresive militant strike action that saw schools closed for weeks at a time...
The mere fact that Thatcher's policy's were Implemented by the Blair government following her and are Implemented today within the Coalition, hardly ' survived her' Is It ?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Margaret Thatcher Dead
oscar;1424859 wrote: This Is what we survived prior to Thatcher coming to power. We did not survive anything under Thatcher that wasn't needed although I concede the Poll Tax was ill advised.
Thatcher And The Winter Of Discontent - Business Insider
See the pictures of how It was before Thatcher? The country was bankrupt, on the brink of economic meltdown and your average man could not feed his children because militant strike action led to power cuts and black outs. Even the Crematoriums couldn't cremate the dead because we ran out of electricity. So, no, Patsy, we did not survive Thatcher, we survived what went before her under previous governments. People like gmc bang on because the North was the hardest hit when the mines were shut down. But ask yourself this.... Do you really believe If she was hated as much as some would lead you to believe, would she have been democratically voted In for 3 terms of office and make no mistake, If her own party had not turned against her, she would have been In a 4th time.
Yes, miners lost their jobs but they were unproductive. Three previous governments closed more mines than Thatcher did In her 12 years. The mines were running at a loss and due to previous socialist parties, we In the main paid for by the taxpayer to keep them open. Yet, the miners union held the country to ransom for more and more wage Increases up to 30% and continual Industrial action was damaging the economy. The miners closed their own mines when the country became sick to death of aggresive militant strike action that saw schools closed for weeks at a time...
The mere fact that Thatcher's policy's were Implemented by the Blair government following her and are Implemented today within the Coalition, hardly ' survived her' Is It ?
Wonder how big a UK sovereign wealth fund would be today if Thatcher had saved any of the country’s oil wealth. The 70s was Britain's most equal decade. The jobs that went during the 80s tended to be good, skilled jobs, delivering decent incomes and some security. She failed to replace those jobs with well-paid equivalents. She could have done that instead of destroy our industrial base.
You create wealth by growing things to sell or making things to sell - adding value. The notion that you can replace an industrialised economy with a service based one dependent on financial services is stupidity in the extreme. It's the same mentality that has destroyed the American economy and given us a banking sector that is too powerful and has our politicians scared of regulating the bastards and/or putting them in jail. The thing about Thatcherite is you cannot reason with them all you can do is oppose them. Do you prefer to live in a liberal democracy or a Thatcherite one. I don't like the Thatcherite one very much.
Thatcher And The Winter Of Discontent - Business Insider
See the pictures of how It was before Thatcher? The country was bankrupt, on the brink of economic meltdown and your average man could not feed his children because militant strike action led to power cuts and black outs. Even the Crematoriums couldn't cremate the dead because we ran out of electricity. So, no, Patsy, we did not survive Thatcher, we survived what went before her under previous governments. People like gmc bang on because the North was the hardest hit when the mines were shut down. But ask yourself this.... Do you really believe If she was hated as much as some would lead you to believe, would she have been democratically voted In for 3 terms of office and make no mistake, If her own party had not turned against her, she would have been In a 4th time.
Yes, miners lost their jobs but they were unproductive. Three previous governments closed more mines than Thatcher did In her 12 years. The mines were running at a loss and due to previous socialist parties, we In the main paid for by the taxpayer to keep them open. Yet, the miners union held the country to ransom for more and more wage Increases up to 30% and continual Industrial action was damaging the economy. The miners closed their own mines when the country became sick to death of aggresive militant strike action that saw schools closed for weeks at a time...
The mere fact that Thatcher's policy's were Implemented by the Blair government following her and are Implemented today within the Coalition, hardly ' survived her' Is It ?
Wonder how big a UK sovereign wealth fund would be today if Thatcher had saved any of the country’s oil wealth. The 70s was Britain's most equal decade. The jobs that went during the 80s tended to be good, skilled jobs, delivering decent incomes and some security. She failed to replace those jobs with well-paid equivalents. She could have done that instead of destroy our industrial base.
You create wealth by growing things to sell or making things to sell - adding value. The notion that you can replace an industrialised economy with a service based one dependent on financial services is stupidity in the extreme. It's the same mentality that has destroyed the American economy and given us a banking sector that is too powerful and has our politicians scared of regulating the bastards and/or putting them in jail. The thing about Thatcherite is you cannot reason with them all you can do is oppose them. Do you prefer to live in a liberal democracy or a Thatcherite one. I don't like the Thatcherite one very much.
Margaret Thatcher Dead
It appears I lived through another reality to Oscar.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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gmc;1424868 wrote: Wonder how big a UK sovereign wealth fund would be today if Thatcher had saved any of the country’s oil wealth. .
I think she was between a rock and a hard place. In 1979 the country was bankrupt. What does anyone do when the bailiffs are at the door? I know what I would do... I'd either borrow money to pay the debts or sell my jewellery. Ironically, the cuts In welfare and public sector we are seeing now Is down to the borrowing under the Brown government.... the very government you have critisised.!
However, what she did have to do was address the dire balance of payments problem and address It quick. What she seemed not to envisage was putting some of that revenue Into diverting a portion of the proceeds Into an oil fund as Norway had done.
I think she was between a rock and a hard place. In 1979 the country was bankrupt. What does anyone do when the bailiffs are at the door? I know what I would do... I'd either borrow money to pay the debts or sell my jewellery. Ironically, the cuts In welfare and public sector we are seeing now Is down to the borrowing under the Brown government.... the very government you have critisised.!
However, what she did have to do was address the dire balance of payments problem and address It quick. What she seemed not to envisage was putting some of that revenue Into diverting a portion of the proceeds Into an oil fund as Norway had done.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Betty Boop
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Bruv;1424870 wrote: It appears I lived through another reality to Oscar.
Me too!
Me too!
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Betty Boop
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oscar;1424878 wrote: I think she was between a rock and a hard place. In 1979 the country was bankrupt. What does anyone do when the bailiffs are at the door? I know what I would do... I'd either borrow money to pay the debts or sell my jewellery. Ironically, the cuts In welfare and public sector we are seeing now Is down to the borrowing under the Brown government.... the very government you have critisised.!
However, what she did have to do was address the dire balance of payments problem and address It quick. What she seemed not to envisage was putting some of that revenue Into diverting a portion of the proceeds Into an oil fund as Norway had done.
oooh no no no, never deal with bailiffs they will rip you off every step of the way, go direct to the original debtor and start paying them, they have no choice but to call the bullies, sorry bailiffs off.
Sorry back to topic...
However, what she did have to do was address the dire balance of payments problem and address It quick. What she seemed not to envisage was putting some of that revenue Into diverting a portion of the proceeds Into an oil fund as Norway had done.
oooh no no no, never deal with bailiffs they will rip you off every step of the way, go direct to the original debtor and start paying them, they have no choice but to call the bullies, sorry bailiffs off.
Sorry back to topic...
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Oscar Namechange
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Betty Boop;1424915 wrote: oooh no no no, never deal with bailiffs they will rip you off every step of the way, go direct to the original debtor and start paying them, they have no choice but to call the bullies, sorry bailiffs off.
Sorry back to topic...
Thankfully, I've never had them.
Sorry back to topic...
Thankfully, I've never had them.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Betty Boop
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oscar;1424917 wrote: Thankfully, I've never had them.
I have, but not through my own wrong doing, nothing but a bunch of bullies who intimidate and frighten the life out of innocent people.
I have, but not through my own wrong doing, nothing but a bunch of bullies who intimidate and frighten the life out of innocent people.
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Oscar Namechange
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Betty Boop;1424918 wrote: I have, but not through my own wrong doing, nothing but a bunch of bullies who intimidate and frighten the life out of innocent people.
I did once sort out a right financial mess for someone and I seem to recall that providing you offer the original creditor ' something' they can't do a lot...
I did once sort out a right financial mess for someone and I seem to recall that providing you offer the original creditor ' something' they can't do a lot...
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Margaret Thatcher Dead
oscar;1424878 wrote: What does anyone do when the bailiffs are at the door? I know what I would do... I'd either borrow money to pay the debts or sell my jewellery. Ironically, the cuts In welfare and public sector we are seeing now Is down to the borrowing under the Brown government.... the very government you have critisised.!
What Thatcher did was sell OUR jewellry. Everything she sold was OURS, it was publically owned. So maybe a few working class people bought a few shares but most of it was gobbled up by rich people who got considerably richer. A few crumbs to make us think we were given something when all the time she was feeding the rich. Trust me, as a soldier back when she was first elected, we were given promises about a considerable wage rise. Our pay was appalling back then, even for those with a trade. She conned the Armed forces into voting her in then she reneged on it. We got a pittance
What Thatcher did was sell OUR jewellry. Everything she sold was OURS, it was publically owned. So maybe a few working class people bought a few shares but most of it was gobbled up by rich people who got considerably richer. A few crumbs to make us think we were given something when all the time she was feeding the rich. Trust me, as a soldier back when she was first elected, we were given promises about a considerable wage rise. Our pay was appalling back then, even for those with a trade. She conned the Armed forces into voting her in then she reneged on it. We got a pittance
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
Margaret Thatcher Dead
Bruv;1424870 wrote: It appears I lived through another reality to Oscar.
Maybe it's just the rest of us noticed and understood what was going on.
Actually that's a bit unkind. I know many otherwise intelligent people who think Thatcher was wonderful. Oscar:- Thatcherite and daily mail reader.
posted by oscar
What she seemed not to envisage was putting some of that revenue Into diverting a portion of the proceeds Into an oil fund as Norway had done.
What have the state do something to interfere with the free markets? She was incapable of thinking like that. She was a monetarist who rather missed the point that an economy is a reflection of the society it exists in not something apart from it.
Maybe it's just the rest of us noticed and understood what was going on.
Actually that's a bit unkind. I know many otherwise intelligent people who think Thatcher was wonderful. Oscar:- Thatcherite and daily mail reader.
posted by oscar
What she seemed not to envisage was putting some of that revenue Into diverting a portion of the proceeds Into an oil fund as Norway had done.
What have the state do something to interfere with the free markets? She was incapable of thinking like that. She was a monetarist who rather missed the point that an economy is a reflection of the society it exists in not something apart from it.
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gmc;1424932 wrote: Maybe it's just the rest of us noticed and understood what was going on.
Actually that's a bit unkind. I know many otherwise intelligent people who think Thatcher was wonderful. Oscar:- Thatcherite and daily mail reader.
posted by oscar
What have the state do something to interfere with the free markets? She was incapable of thinking like that. She was a monetarist who rather missed the point that an economy is a reflection of the society it exists in not something apart from it.
Because I believe that what she Inherited was so dire following Callaghan that she went for the Immediate fix and she was not a visionary.
Actually that's a bit unkind. I know many otherwise intelligent people who think Thatcher was wonderful. Oscar:- Thatcherite and daily mail reader.
posted by oscar
What have the state do something to interfere with the free markets? She was incapable of thinking like that. She was a monetarist who rather missed the point that an economy is a reflection of the society it exists in not something apart from it.
Because I believe that what she Inherited was so dire following Callaghan that she went for the Immediate fix and she was not a visionary.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Margaret Thatcher Dead
oscar;1424936 wrote: Because I believe that what she Inherited was so dire following Callaghan that she went for the Immediate fix and she was not a visionary.
What are you saying she was not that great a prime minister? Do remember what callaghan inherited from the tories. Really the more you know about british politics the more depressing it becomes. They're all plonkers that can't thin beyond the next election.
What are you saying she was not that great a prime minister? Do remember what callaghan inherited from the tories. Really the more you know about british politics the more depressing it becomes. They're all plonkers that can't thin beyond the next election.
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Oscar Namechange
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gmc;1424971 wrote: What are you saying she was not that great a prime minister? Do remember what callaghan inherited from the tories. Really the more you know about british politics the more depressing it becomes. They're all plonkers that can't thin beyond the next election.
What made her a great PM was resilience. She gave Britain respect after 3 previous disasterous governments. Weather her policies were right or wrong will always be a matter for Individual opinion but from what she Inherited to the boom of the 80's can not be denied. She may have gone about some policies the wrong way but I do not and will never believe there was a politician alive who could have got the country back on track In 12 years with creating the service Industry to boot. In 1979 we as a country were uninvestable and the laughing stock of the world. We had no place on the world stage. She gave us respect.
What made her a great PM was resilience. She gave Britain respect after 3 previous disasterous governments. Weather her policies were right or wrong will always be a matter for Individual opinion but from what she Inherited to the boom of the 80's can not be denied. She may have gone about some policies the wrong way but I do not and will never believe there was a politician alive who could have got the country back on track In 12 years with creating the service Industry to boot. In 1979 we as a country were uninvestable and the laughing stock of the world. We had no place on the world stage. She gave us respect.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon