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Mickiel;1509701 wrote: Well i agree, the truth is what i call the present truth, its always what we presently understand, and it is more up to date than we are.


That is a very big logical leap. Even for you.

Truth is truth, whether we understand it, acknowledge it, or ignore it.

LarsMac;1509703 wrote: That is a very big logical leap. Even for you.

Truth is truth, whether we understand it, acknowledge it, or ignore it.


In spiritual matters we grow in understanding from Age to age, so our understanding is always present.

Mickiel;1509714 wrote: In spiritual matters we grow in understanding from Age to age, so our understanding is always present.


Facts can change, and our understanding of the truth constantly changes, but that falls on us. Truth has a change ingredient in it, because it can change you, change the consciousness. So the truth and change can be involved with each other. So how can one know the truth if they are not willing to change?

Not unlike one mans truth is another mans lie.

Ted;1509728 wrote: Not unlike one mans truth is another mans lie.


One man's ending is now humanity's beginning.

Perhaps.

God is real and we are too!

I believe in the experiential reality of God. Could I be wrong? Sure but so can others or maybe everyone else. I don't believe I am but I could be.

Ted;1509919 wrote: I believe in the experiential reality of God. Could I be wrong? Sure but so can others or maybe everyone else. I don't believe I am but I could be.




Well we keep ourselves humble when we admit that we could be wrong about things. It deflates our ego's to a better size.

Facts never change. The understanding & interpretation of those facts are what change.

For example...

Fact: There are spots of light in the night sky.

Original understanding: These are holes in a black sheet, placed there by God.

Modern understanding: These are billions of suns Light Years away.

FourPart;1509977 wrote: Facts never change. The understanding & interpretation of those facts are what change.

For example...

Fact: There are spots of light in the night sky.

Original understanding: These are holes in a black sheet, placed there by God.

Modern understanding: These are billions of suns Light Years away.


Fact; God created man. Now , the Sun is 92.96 million miles from the earth , and we can see it with our eyes. My goodness , we can see something with our eyes that is 92.96 million miles away!

Hey, there must be a God!

sorry but the logic escapes me completely. While the sun is a smaller star it is gigantic compared to the eearth. That is why we see it the size it is.

Ted;1510154 wrote: sorry but the logic escapes me completely. While the sun is a smaller star it is gigantic compared to the eearth. That is why we see it the size it is.


It does not escape me, our eyes are wonderfully made , we can see things that are 92,96 million miles away,.

praise God!

Mickiel;1510193 wrote: It does not escape me, our eyes are wonderfully made , we can see things that are 92,96 million miles away,.

praise God!


Big deal. I can see millions of light years away.

Praise Nature and Evolution.

Fuzzy;1510229 wrote: Big deal. I can see millions of light years away.

Praise Nature and Evolution.




To praise means to be thankful.

A plant can 'see' light. It will turn towards it - yet it has no eyes.

Bats can't see, yet fly very accurately and catch their food in midair. Evolution took a slightly different path.

Fuzzy;1510516 wrote: Bats can't see, yet fly very accurately and catch their food in midair. Evolution took a slightly different path.


Actually, bats can see - they just don't need to most of the time.

FourPart;1510723 wrote: Actually, bats can see - they just don't need to most of the time.


Apparently some fruit bats can even see UV light.:-2

Where God is concerned , the world is blind as a bat; we just can't see him.

Mickiel;1510736 wrote: Where God is concerned , the world is blind as a bat; we just can't see him.


I wish I could get him out of hiding, so I could snap a selfie with him and get an autograph. Crikey, wouldn't that be a first?

In my view fundamentalism will destroy the Christian faith. They appropriated the ancient texts and had not a clue on how to read them and still don't I've seen far too many folks hurt by this approach. I conser it evil.

Fuzzy;1510786 wrote: I wish I could get him out of hiding, so I could snap a selfie with him and get an autograph. Crikey, wouldn't that be a first?


Well yes it would be. If you manage it, I would like to be in that picture myself , or get a copy of it no matter who else is in it.

Ted;1511046 wrote: In my view fundamentalism will destroy the Christian faith. They appropriated the ancient texts and had not a clue on how to read them and still don't I've seen far too many folks hurt by this approach. I conser it evil.


I agree with you, But in my view it will not be fundamentalism that will destroy Christianity, it will be God himself who will do that. He will destroy religion and give them all the correct version of the truth which they all have had a hand in perverting.

Just not today.

Would that be "fake truth"?

Ted;1511140 wrote: Would that be "fake truth"?


There is no such thing as fake truth; truth is truth; people have fake understanding of the truth.

"Truth" is fact. In Scientific terms, Truth would be the Evidence. It exists regardless of the interpretation.

However, you are confusing Truth (Evidence) with the interpretation of that evidence.

Take, for instance the wording of Genesis. Let us assume that the wording is "Truth". The words are there for us to see (I'm not getting into whether or not the words themselves are true or not as they were put there by someone else claiming them to be "Truth", when in fact they are only interpretations).

My interpretation of the whole Adam & Eve thing is that it is meant as a metaphor to describe how children grow through puberty into adulthood. It starts in innocence, just as children are, happy to be running around naked - or as the words say, "naked & unashamed". Then, as they get older & their bodies change they start to get curious about things & asking questions (eating from the tree of knowledge). Then, as they enter puberty they suddenly become aware of their bodies & insist on covering everything up - exactly as kids still do. Once they pass this stage then they are never satisfied & their idyllic existence has come to an end as they enter adulthood (being cast from the Garden of Eden). THAT is my interpretation (Hypothesis) of the Truth (evidence taken from the existence of the words). However, the Religious believe the interpretation to be literal & that there was a garden & that there was a talking snake in an actual tree, and that Eve was cloned from a rib taken from Adam, who was, in turn, made from a handful of dust.

The existence of the Bible is a Truth. It exists. Of that there is no doubt, but it is only in existence because someone put it there to be accepted as Truth. THAT is what I see as being Fake Truth. The REAL Truth is that someone planted the FAKE Truth.

FourPart;1511160 wrote: "Truth" is fact. In Scientific terms, Truth would be the Evidence. It exists regardless of the interpretation.

However, you are confusing Truth (Evidence) with the interpretation of that evidence.

Take, for instance the wording of Genesis. Let us assume that the wording is "Truth". The words are there for us to see (I'm not getting into whether or not the words themselves are true or not as they were put there by someone else claiming them to be "Truth", when in fact they are only interpretations).

My interpretation of the whole Adam & Eve thing is that it is meant as a metaphor to describe how children grow through puberty into adulthood. It starts in innocence, just as children are, happy to be running around naked - or as the words say, "naked & unashamed". Then, as they get older & their bodies change they start to get curious about things & asking questions (eating from the tree of knowledge). Then, as they enter puberty they suddenly become aware of their bodies & insist on covering everything up - exactly as kids still do. Once they pass this stage then they are never satisfied & their idyllic existence has come to an end as they enter adulthood (being cast from the Garden of Eden). THAT is my interpretation (Hypothesis) of the Truth (evidence taken from the existence of the words). However, the Religious believe the interpretation to be literal & that there was a garden & that there was a talking snake in an actual tree, and that Eve was cloned from a rib taken from Adam, who was, in turn, made from a handful of dust.

The existence of the Bible is a Truth. It exists. Of that there is no doubt, but it is only in existence because someone put it there to be accepted as Truth. THAT is what I see as being Fake Truth. The REAL Truth is that someone planted the FAKE Truth.




The real truth is that truth existed before humanity did. In my view, truth came from God, it is not a human invention or a human definition. God has just not been transparent with the truth, for his own reasons. Humanity has the fake truth , and fake understanding; that is why we all see things differing, because real truth is constant and remains the same. In my view, a mind unconscious of God and truth, cannot then define either. Nor can see either, they just see " Their truth", and that is all humanity is able to do of ourselves. I don't allow anyone to define truth to me and my consciousness, their opinions are meaningless to me.

The bible certainly has metaphor in it , but more metaphor exist within the human consciousness. The bible explains itself, but the understanding of it must be opened and given by God , or we are just unable to interpret it.

FourPart excellent post. kThe Bible contains some historical accuracy in some places but The writers of the kBible believed that you could get one interpretation on Monday and a different one on Tues. There is no one interpretation. To place the Bible in such high esteem is a form of idolatry. There is spiritual truth in the Bible or more to the point some sound advice for living.

Both of the creation stories are myth in the true sense of that word. For the most part the Bible is midrash. Rabbi Dr. Robert Daum a Jewish scholar.

Ted;1511179 wrote: Both of the creation stories are myth in the true sense of that word. For the most part the Bible is midrash. Rabbi Dr. Robert Daum a Jewish scholar.


Human knowledge is midrash, the knowledge of God is the splender of reality.

God and reality don't go together in the same sentence.

Fuzzy;1511191 wrote: God and reality don't go together in the same sentence.




The reality of God created the sentence and language. Even the criticism of Atheism is nonsensical.

A good word to think about is "spirit".

Ted;1511453 wrote: A good word to think about is "spirit".


Another good word to think about is " All", in Col. 3:11 " Christ is ALL and IN ALL."

Notice the word " All.:"

Do You Believe All in the Bible?

I think the word is 'Legs'. Let's spread the word.

Fuzzy;1511525 wrote: I think the word is 'Legs'. Let's spread the word.




I know and understand that the truth does not lay in the hands of jokers, and their demented view of all things ,humanity can ill afford them to be given their perverted misuse of language.

Fuzzy;1511525 wrote: I think the word is 'Legs'. Let's spread the word.


Tell me, will you spread this: Report: Atheism in Russia Falls by 50 Percent in Three Years

Mickiel you ask if I believe the Bible. The Bible is midrash and is not intended by its authors to be read literally. I believe there is much about the human condition in the Bible. The Exodus is not about millions of folks leaving Egypt it is a story about the human condition and wanting to get rid of oppression and escape from bondage. It is a very human story. The words salvation, saved, saviour are about the escape from bondage. It is in fact a very human book. Inspired yes and so we the great poets of the past and the present.. BTW I still read the Bible and often refer to both Greek and Hebrew lexicons.

Ted;1511598 wrote: Mickiel you ask if I believe the Bible. The Bible is midrash and is not intended by its authors to be read literally. I believe there is much about the human condition in the Bible. The Exodus is not about millions of folks leaving Egypt it is a story about the human condition and wanting to get rid of oppression and escape from bondage. It is a very human story. The words salvation, saved, saviour are about the escape from bondage. It is in fact a very human book. Inspired yes and so we the great poets of the past and the present.. BTW I still read the Bible and often refer to both Greek and Hebrew lexicons.


I understand, however I disagree that the bible is midrash. Explain to me how a book on the human condition can be midrash?

Midrash is an ancient form of writing. It uses metaphor to teach lessons and also an attempt to explain what they did not understand. The Christmas story is a midrash. The crucifixion story is a midrash, so to are the parables. Example the idea of Joshua crossing the Jordan is a midrash reflecting the importance of the Jordan river being crossed on try land reflects the importance of that story compared with the most important Jewish story the crossing of the Red Sea.

Ted;1511669 wrote: Midrash is an ancient form of writing. It uses metaphor to teach lessons and also an attempt to explain what they did not understand. The Christmas story is a midrash. The crucifixion story is a midrash, so to are the parables. Example the idea of Joshua crossing the Jordan is a midrash reflecting the importance of the Jordan river being crossed on try land reflects the importance of that story compared with the most important Jewish story the crossing of the Red Sea.




Well I agree that some of the bible is midrash, but not all of it.

There is very little real history in the Bible. It is metaphorical writing.

Ted;1511691 wrote: There is very little real history in the Bible. It is metaphorical writing.


I think it's..... just writing.

Fuzzy according to the scholars it is to be read through j=Jewish eye in order to interpret what is there. Then we can see the wisdom included. Some scholars call it the "more than" book.

Ted;1511722 wrote: Fuzzy according to the scholars it is to be read through j=Jewish eye in order to interpret what is there. Then we can see the wisdom included. Some scholars call it the "more than" book.


I don't have Jewish eyes, nor am I a scholar, but I would call it 'The Great Book of Contradictions'.

That is a failure to understand it and obviousl no desire to learn about it. But that is OK.

Ted;1511736 wrote: That is a failure to understand it and obviousl no desire to learn about it. But that is OK.


Good point.

Jewish eyes in that context is obviously a metaphor implying that one should look at that saying by trying to see it as a scholar or a Jewish person would see it. That comes with a small understanding of early Jewish culture.

Ted;1511771 wrote: Jewish eyes in that context is obviously a metaphor implying that one should look at that saying by trying to see it as a scholar or a Jewish person would see it. That comes with a small understanding of early Jewish culture.


In my view, God can appeal directly to the human mind, if he wants to. If he does not, then people cannot see his truth. And in my view, at this time, he does not, from my viewpoint; , Job 36:26