500,000 Lebanese flee the carnage: Israelis killed in first firefight on the ground

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:01 am

anastrophe wrote: so - there you go. both sides do things that are wrong.

the palestinians suffer. the israelis suffer. innocent people die.

Two wrongs do not make a right. Unequivocal condemnation of the Israelis

for their atrocities does not seem forthcoming, however.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:23 am

Bill Sikes wrote: Two wrongs do not make a right. Unequivocal condemnation of the Israelis

for their atrocities does not seem forthcoming, however.

i will not unequivocally condemn the israelis any more than i will unequivocally condemn the palestinians. Not all israelis are terrorists; not all palestinians are terrorists. regrettably, the islamic militants who believe they are commanded by allah to kill the jews until they are wiped out, spread their hatred among the palestinians and others.

Issie · Post by **Issie** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:59 am

anastrophe wrote: i will not unequivocally condemn the israelis any more than i will unequivocally condemn the palestinians. Not all israelis are terrorists; not all palestinians are terrorists. regrettably, the islamic militants who believe they are commanded by allah to kill the jews until they are wiped out, spread their hatred among the palestinians and others.
Hang on to that, it gives you a reason to hate them.

Was that before or after you (jews) stole their land.?

All Hail The Jewish Master Race!

http://www.propagandamatrix.com/271003j ... rrace.html

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:41 am

anastrophe wrote: it should be pointed out, that taken out of context, the notion of "prime real estate in the region" is deceptive. perhaps you've never heard the saying that the jews made the desert bloom. what is now prime real estate is so specifically because the israelis worked damned hard to make barren desert into 'prime real estate'. it's not as if the israeli's took over all this absolutely wonderful, lush land. they turned it into a wonderful, lush land. they took no 'prime real estate' away from anyone.

That quite blatantly ignores the reality of what has happened in Palestine. You may find it an unpalatable fact and choose to ignore it but this conflict didn't start with the kidnap of a few israeli soldiers it goes back a very long way and to the fact that Palestine is an occupied country. Israel is an occupying power.

Hamas and Hezbollah are not simply a bunch of mindless religious thugs but resistance movements to occupations by a foreign power. (unlike the IRA who many americans seem to think were freedom fighters fighting British occupation of Northern ireland) I would not in any way condone the suicide bombing or terrorist attacks but neither do I condone what Israel is doing either.

State terrorism/terrorism why is one justified and the other not in your eyes. Both are wrong. Put simply it appears the US is condoning state terrorism by Israel and in in fact is encouraging them to get on with it completiely ignoring the morality and long term consequences of doing so. Anyone criticising is shouted at for being either anti semite or in support of terrorists till it seems (or at least I get the impression) that no one in america is prepared to question what is done in their name. Foreign media are accused of being biased in their reporting because it is generally critical of what is happening when most of the time they report what is happening and leave comment for later. Is it really bias to point out Israel is slaughtering innocent civilians at the same time they report Hezbollah rockets landing in haifa? Why is one wrong and the other somhow O.K.

You are fond of the term islamofascist

fascism

/fashiz’m/

• noun 1 an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government. 2 extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.

One of the features of a fascist state is control of the media and the use of patriotism to curb dissent. Maybe you should worry about christofascists and judeofascists as much as islamofascists because they are all a bunch of religious nutters.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:33 am

Anastrophe, I applaud you for your tenacity in trying to show the U.S. haters on this thread that Hezbollah are not just school teachers wishing for better blackboards in their class rooms. But I see this thread differently than maybe you do. I see this as purely anti U.S.. If the U.S. switched sides tomorrow I fully expect all the U.S. haters to switch immediately. If the evil U.S. supports someone then surely whomever they are supporting must be evil. I'm starting to think the U.S. needs to start supporting the terroists just to get the rest of the world against them. Just my two cents.

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:46 am

well said, gmc.

anastrophe wrote: maybe she was burned by italian mafia. or she could have been burned by a laser death ray. or she could have been burned by her fiance. or she could have been burned by knocking over a pot of boiling water. or she could have been burned in a house fire. or she could have been burned by other palestinians. or she could have been burned by allah.

conspicuously missing from this list of possibilities is that she was burned in israeli attacks on occupied territory. is burned by allah or other palestinians more likely than that scenario? obviously we don't know the cause but I wonder why this possibility didn't make your list.

anastrophe wrote: the video regarding suicide bombing victims is also propoganda. loan's inability to muster even the faintest expression of outrage at that speaks volumes to me.

so misspelling my name helps your arguments now? let me lend you a brain.

I'm the one who believes in nonviolence. you're the one who says it doesn't work. the israelis are the ones aggressively occupying land. the arabs are the ones defending it. you advocate their violence more than I do.

the arabs have tried nonviolence in the past and it got them very little. they used a suicide bomber against the US embassy after the 1982 travesty and it worked, everyone fled.

I was pushing the fact that there are two sides to this war before you. Now, apparently, you think it is your brain child.

YZGI,

I blame the US government for supplying Israel, imo a terrorist state, with things like nuclear weapons then trying to make Iran look like an evil empire for giving Hezbollah some rockets.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:04 am

So koan its not a very big leap to call the U.S. a terroist state since you believe we support and supply one. What I can't figure out is how you won't acknowledge that Lebanon is a terroist state. they do support the Hezbolla right? And how about the palenstians who strap on bombs. I mean I'm not saying Isreal is without guilt, I'm just saying it is a two way street and alot of people automatically go against Isreal jsut because they feel the U.S. fully supports all actions they make. I admit The U.S. has always supported Isreal but I am not certain they support every single act they have ever made. I don't think the U.S. is privy to every single action before it happens.

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:13 am

YZGI wrote: So koan its not a very big leap to call the U.S. a terroist state since you believe we support and supply one. What I can't figure out is how you won't acknowledge that Lebanon is a terroist state. they do support the Hezbolla right? And how about the palenstians who strap on bombs. I mean I'm not saying Isreal is without guilt, I'm just saying it is a two way street and alot of people automatically go against Isreal jsut because they feel the U.S. fully supports all actions they make. I admit The U.S. has always supported Isreal but I am not certain they support every single act they have ever made. I don't think the U.S. is privy to every single action before it happens.

Where have I said that Lebanon isn't a terrorist state? What I'm saying is that the word terrorist is becoming meaningless. The definition is not being applied across the board.

I'm sure that the palestinians would much rather strap their bombs to a plane and drop them.

My whole point has been that it's a two way street. Problem is when a few members start pointing out only Hezbollah terrorism then a few members have to point out the Israeli terrorism to keep a balanced view.

There are a number of people who insist that the US is a terrorist state, to me the term is useless. It starts a debate over words. Let Webster and OED worry about it.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:54 am

koan wrote:

conspicuously missing from this list of possibilities is that she was burned in israeli attacks on occupied territory. is burned by allah or other palestinians more likely than that scenario? obviously we don't know the cause but I wonder why this possibility didn't make your list.

conspicuously absent also is the possibility that YOU burned her. conspicuously absent is the possibility that she burned herself. conspicuously absent is the possibility that jesus returned to earth, burned her, and flew back to alpha centauri in a spaceship. conspicuously absent is the possibility that she spontaneously combusted. conspicuously absent is the possibility that she was burned by a rogue libyan faction. conspicuously absent is the possibility that george bush senior burned her while on a covert mission in the gaza. conspicuously absent is the possibility that kensloft has become a firestarting terrorist in the middle east. conspicuously absent is the possibility that her father burned her in retribution for being engaged to a jew. conspicuously absent is the possibility that she was never burned at all, and the the entire story was actually a cover, she never saw israeli physicians, that whole part of the story is made up, she's really just your everyday average suicide bomber who forgot to attach the detonation cord to the primer.

sorry i left those out too.

so misspelling my name helps your arguments now? let me lend you a brain.

no more so than "ana-straw-man".

you walked right into that one.

I'm the one who believes in nonviolence. you're the one who says it doesn't work. the israelis are the ones aggressively occupying land. the arabs are the ones defending it. you advocate their violence more than I do.

the israelis live in a sovereign nation. for the most part, they keep to themselves. they've been pulling out of the gaza. they pulled out of lebanon (the shebaa farms disputed area notwithstanding). they have pulled some of their settlers from the west bank. the negotiations for a sovereign palestine have been ongoing. then darnit all, after the palestinians held a free election, they voted in a radical, militant organization that has 'death to israel' as its banner. the palestinian extremists aren't making any efforts at all to try to live peacefully with israel.

it's not so poetically simple as 'aggressive occupiers and pious defenders'.

the arabs have tried nonviolence in the past and it got them very little.
and the arabs have tried violence in the past and it got them very little.

they used a suicide bomber against the US embassy after the 1982 travesty and it worked, everyone fled.
you've brought this up a couple of times now. i thought we were talking about israel and the palestinians. the palestinians have sent dozens and dozens of suicide bombers into israel, killing and maiming hundreds. and hey guess what? it didn't work. the israelis aren't going anywhere. so what's your point? you support suicide bombing if it causes someone to flee? wow. so much for your take on non-violence.

I was pushing the fact that there are two sides to this war before you. Now, apparently, you think it is your brain child.

how sad. you seem to think this is a competition.

I blame the US government for supplying Israel, imo a terrorist state, with things like nuclear weapons then trying to make Iran look like an evil empire for giving Hezbollah some rockets.

oddly enough, israel has never used their nuclear weapons. hezbollah is using their rockets every day. aimed at civilians. no military targets in mind when they do so. kill jews. that's the intent. israel? kill hezbollah. kill those who are killing our civilians. are lebanese civilians getting caught in the crossfire? you bet. israel isn't targeting civilian, residential neighborhood, unless rockets are being fired from them. hezbollah? lob rockets into israel. targets, civilians. period.

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:09 am

anastrophe, you're not arguing with me. I've already addressed all of the points you just tried to make. At least once.

What it now comes down to is letting people decide what they think for themselves.

The important thing is that they hear both sides of the story.

If you want to turn this into a thread about koan being an anti-semitic suicide bomber loving nazi then you are welcome to carry on. My actual words stand for themselves. Twist them how you may I don't believe anyone takes it as a fact. Your loaded questions and vocabulary say more about you than me.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:12 am

gmc wrote: That quite blatantly ignores the reality of what has happened in Palestine. You may find it an unpalatable fact and choose to ignore it but this conflict didn't start with the kidnap of a few israeli soldiers it goes back a very long way and to the fact that Palestine is an occupied country. Israel is an occupying power.

no, israel is a sovereign nation. end of story.

Hamas and Hezbollah are not simply a bunch of mindless religious thugs but resistance movements to occupations by a foreign power.

i beg to differ. they are indeed mindless, religous militant thugs.

You are fond of the term islamofascist
i have no "fondness" for the term. i wish it didn't exist. sadly, the actions of those thus named prevents it.

One of the features of a fascist state is control of the media and the use of patriotism to curb dissent. Maybe you should worry about christofascists and judeofascists as much as islamofascists because they are all a bunch of religious nutters.

unfortunately, judeofascists aren't blowing themselves up in gaza. not a one. islamofascists believe they have a mandate from allah to wipe every last jew from the face of the earth. for that matter, everyone who is not muslim.

and they're working hard in that effort. the extremist mullahs rule the airwaves of the middle east. they incite muslims to martyrdom with promises of paradise populated with virgins. no such creed exists among the jews. the jews want to live in their tiny little country. most do not have visions of expansionism, or of destroying all their muslim neighbors.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:24 am

YZGI wrote: Anastrophe, I applaud you for your tenacity in trying to show the U.S. haters on this thread that Hezbollah are not just school teachers wishing for better blackboards in their class rooms. But I see this thread differently than maybe you do. I see this as purely anti U.S.. If the U.S. switched sides tomorrow I fully expect all the U.S. haters to switch immediately. If the evil U.S. supports someone then surely whomever they are supporting must be evil. I'm starting to think the U.S. needs to start supporting the terroists just to get the rest of the world against them. Just my two cents.

Try and understand that because someone criticises US foreign policy it doesn't mean that they hate america. I would and do criticise British foreign policy with the same vehemence as do many of my countrymen and for the same reason, it is wrong and is making things worse. We got conned in to going in to Iraq, Tony Blair lied and our politicians were daft enough to fall for it. That doesn't make me anti British or unpatriotic. Far from it, it is my hard won right to say what I damn well please about our government and anyone elses for that matter.

You live in a free country and are responsible for what is done in your name. What has happened that you don't question what your govt does and think it unpatriotic to do so and that you believe anyone critical of your policy is simply being anti american and therefore wrong?

You are either with us or you are against us and my country right or wrong is the kind of simplistic moronic atititude that has no place ina free society.

No British politician would dare call someone against the war in Iraq unpatriotic or accuse trhem of being in support of terrorism because they object to what is happening in Lebanon because they get laughed at for being so pathetic as to have no better arguement than to try and shut people up. We live in a free country where poeople can say what they like. Blind patriotism my country right or wrong is an attitude that died out in europe a long time ago. The apparent fact that such blind patriotism and faith in your political leaders seems to be the norm is alarming to say the least.

Israel are very far from being the good guys in this. The US may not be privy to every action befotre it happens but they are incredibly reluctant to condemn Israel when they kill women and children but are very quick to condemn Hezbollah. They are also blocking all attempts by the UN to stop the fighting with an immediate cease fire.

It is hypocritical to condemn others for not adhering to UN resolutions while at the same time ignoring the ones you don't like such as the ones calling for a withdrawal from the west bank.

Lebanon is not a terrorist state. Quite simply they are not powerful enough to be one otherwise Israel would not now be invading. The longer Israel gets away with this the more and more support extremists are gaining.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:25 am

koan wrote: anastrophe, you're not arguing with me. I've already addressed all of the points you just tried to make. At least once.

nice try. once the going gets tough - koan claims it's all been covered.

If you want to turn this into a thread about koan being an anti-semitic suicide bomber loving nazi then you are welcome to carry on. My actual words stand for themselves.

and your lack of any condemnation for the atrocities committed by palestinians, hezbollah, hamas, speaks for itself as well.

Twist them how you may I don't believe anyone takes it as a fact. Your loaded questions and vocabulary say more about you than me.

oh boy, we're at the 'neener neener' stage. "loaded questions" - translation, questions koan is unwilling to confront.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:30 am

koan wrote:

My whole point has been that it's a two way street. Problem is when a few members start pointing out only Hezbollah terrorism then a few members have to point out the Israeli terrorism to keep a balanced view.

if one side is committing more terrorism than the other, then why must it be kept "balanced"? if iran drops a nuclear bomb on israel, how are you planning on presenting a 'balanced view' of that?

you posted a couple of videos. one of palestinian children claiming they had stones thrown at them. another showing some israeli children throwing stones.

yep, those horrible israelis, throwing stones. i guess that makes them as much terrorists as those who blow themselves up on commuter buses. gotta keep that balanced view.

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:21 am

An aspect of this conflict that I don't recall seeing much talk about is the issue of the Palestinian Right of Return.

The Palestinian Refugees wanting to claim this right are numbered at about 4.5 million. It is a right based on Article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights ("Everyone has the right to leave any country including his own, and to return to his country") and United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194, paragraph 11

Issie · Post by **Issie** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:07 pm

you walked right into that one.

Just like Israel walked into Palestine

the israelis live in a sovereign nation. for the most part, they keep to themselves.

That`s the whole point, they do not keep to themselves, never have kept to themselves, they want more and more ¦..what are you on.?

and the arabs have tried violence in the past and it got them very little.

And the Jews/Zionist have tried violence in the past, present and will in the future and it gets them EVERYTHING.

they used a suicide bomber against the US embassy after the 1982 travesty and it worked, everyone fled.

And the King David hotel was bombed by Zionist fanatics, and that worked, you got the state of Israel, but not everyone fled, they were dead.

how sad. you seem to think this is a competition.

How sad you have to resort to personal insults and only bring up parts of history that suits you.

KOAN

What it now comes down to is letting people decide what they think for themselves.

What it also comes down to is allowing people to express their views without being called anti-semetic, an idiot, stupid, a terrorist supporter, a loser and a racist.

Why.? I personally do not see why certain members are allowed to spout their racist views in here with certain members cheering them on because their idea of who is a terrorist is not the same as mine.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:10 pm

koan wrote: An aspect of this conflict that I don't recall seeing much talk about is the issue of the Palestinian Right of Return.

The Palestinian Refugees wanting to claim this right are numbered at about 4.5 million. It is a right based on Article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights ("Everyone has the right to leave any country including his own, and to return to his country") and United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194, paragraph 11

small problem with that. in 1946, before israel became a state, there were about 1.0 to 1.2 million moslems/palestinians living there. they are the only ones who can claim such a right. those born outside of the region after that cannot claim to be 'return[ing] to country'.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:12 pm

anastrophe wrote: i will not unequivocally condemn the israelis any more than i will unequivocally condemn the palestinians. Not all israelis are terrorists; not all palestinians are terrorists. regrettably, the islamic militants who believe they are commanded by allah to kill the jews until they are wiped out, spread their hatred among the palestinians and others.

There you go again Paul, saying is on both sides and then singling out the Palestinians as the fanatics.

Well, I sit here night after night watching the news unfold and the killing going on - a recent, typical, report of Hisbolah killing 12 Israeli soldiers and 3 civilians followed by the Israeli "retaliation" which killed 55 civilians with hundreds more wounded in an air strike on a residential area of Beruit that is not even connected to Hisbolah!

If you won't condemn it I will - I herewith condemn utterly the fanatics, on both sides, who's hatred and intransigence will not allow peace a chance. I condemn those, on both sides, who know their actions will result in civilian deaths and yet continue with the killing. May they rot in Hell.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:14 pm

Issie wrote:

the israelis live in a sovereign nation. for the most part, they keep to themselves.

That`s the whole point, they do not keep to themselves, never have kept to themselves, they want more and more ¦..what are you on.?

not on anything. apparently you've been under the influence of something that's made you comotose for the last 15 years, as israel has been gradually withdrawing.

and the arabs have tried violence in the past and it got them very little.

And the Jews/Zionist have tried violence in the past, present and will in the future and it gets them EVERYTHING.

wrong again bunky. the border between israel and egypt hasn't changed in 28 years. the israelis have pulled out their settlers and their military from the gaza strip. i guess you were asleep for that too.

Why.? I personally do not see why certain members are allowed to spout their racist views in here with certain members cheering them on because their idea of who is a terrorist is not the same as mine.

i challenge you to cite a single racist comment i've ever made in this thread. you, however, have made statements such as "you jews", which are patently bigoted.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:20 pm

YZGI wrote: So koan its not a very big leap to call the U.S. a terroist state since you believe we support and supply one. What I can't figure out is how you won't acknowledge that Lebanon is a terroist state. they do support the Hezbolla right? And how about the palenstians who strap on bombs. I mean I'm not saying Isreal is without guilt, I'm just saying it is a two way street and alot of people automatically go against Isreal jsut because they feel the U.S. fully supports all actions they make. I admit The U.S. has always supported Isreal but I am not certain they support every single act they have ever made. I don't think the U.S. is privy to every single action before it happens.

Then I issue you with a challenge.

Come up with one instance when the US Government has condemned an Israeli action.

I'd be interested to see what you can find.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:28 pm

Bryn Mawr wrote: There you go again Paul, saying is on both sides and then singling out the Palestinians as the fanatics.

Well, I sit here night after night watching the news unfold and the killing going on - a recent, typical, report of Hisbolah killing 12 Israeli soldiers and 3 civilians followed by the Israeli "retaliation" which killed 55 civilians with hundreds more wounded in an air strike on a residential area of Beruit that is not even connected to Hisbolah!

If you won't condemn it I will - I herewith condemn utterly the fanatics, on both sides, who's hatred and intransigence will not allow peace a chance. I condemn those, on both sides, who know their actions will result in civilian deaths and yet continue with the killing. May they rot in Hell.

you conveniently don't mention that hezbollah launches their rockets from within civilian residential districts, so that when israel takes them out, it maximizes lebanese civilian deaths for their propoganda value. and hezbollah launches their rockets specifically into civilian residential districts in israel, that have no military value or objective, in order to try and kill as many israeli civilians as possible. it's a great technique. a double-whammy if you will.

i see a difference between killing innocent civilians specifically for the purpose of killing innocent civilians, and civilians killed in the pursuit of the cowards who 'shield' themselves with those civilians.

Issie · Post by **Issie** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:41 pm

You need to get a life pal, you are obviously in need of some serious psychiatric treatment....come over to the Uk, it is free.

i challenge you to cite a single racist comment i've ever made in this thread. you, however, have made statements such as "you jews", which are patently bigoted.

Did I say that YOU personally had made racist comments.? Don’t put words in my mouth and who the hell are you to decide Iam bigoted.

Get your grammar sorted sonny, I made ONE statement where I said you Jews¦not STATEMENTS

Yes YOU JEWS, there I’ve said it again.

You Jews, you Jews, you Jews.!

What is your point? You like your racist’s friends spouting their mouths off in here, but they are not talking about Jews, no they are talking about those filthy, scumbag, terrorist filth of the earth Muslims Arabs¦..so that’s ok.

Why can other religions be slandered in here, but not the Jews.?

Did I commit a moral sin by critising the JEWS.?

Before it's over, the Jews will have made all populations anti-Semitic.

My My. Vey do dey hate us so? It's a mystery - right?

A wise old man told me, that if you have to resort to personal insults, then you have lost the essence of the argument.

You throw insults at me¦and I’ll throw them back.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:54 pm

anastrophe wrote: you conveniently don't mention that hezbollah launches their rockets from within civilian residential districts, so that when israel takes them out, it maximizes lebanese civilian deaths for their propoganda value. and hezbollah launches their rockets specifically into civilian residential districts in israel, that have no military value or objective, in order to try and kill as many israeli civilians as possible. it's a great technique. a double-whammy if you will.

i see a difference between killing innocent civilians specifically for the purpose of killing innocent civilians, and civilians killed in the pursuit of the cowards who 'shield' themselves with those civilians.

Not this time my friend - not even the Israelis tried to claim this was a launch site.

And 80% millitary casualties when deliberately targetting civilian residential districts in Israel must have been shocking bad luck.

As I said in a previous post, anyone who deliberately kills civilians is evil - and that includes air strikes on residential areas and tanks collapsing homes on their occupants.

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:01 pm

anastrophe wrote: small problem with that. in 1946, before israel became a state, there were about 1.0 to 1.2 million moslems/palestinians living there. they are the only ones who can claim such a right. those born outside of the region after that cannot claim to be 'return[ing] to country'.

I'm applying for dual citizenship with the UK because my grandmother is from England. It is common practice.

Surely a former resident has the right to bring their children with them. The people in charge of determining these things have declared the offspring to be refugees so the number count isn't really up to you, or me. It has already been decided.

Being that it is an internationally recognised right, I support the right of return. It seems you do as well but you've added a condition in: That they leave their immediate family behind.

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:10 pm

I also haven't noticed the number of military deaths in proportion. Last I saw it was around 50 Hizbollah-43 Israeli soldiers declared killed. At that point the percentages went something like 43 out of about 75 total deaths hit their target in Israel and 50 out of about 780 total deaths hit their target.

so for every soldier Hizbollah took out there were 1.7 civilian losses and for every soldier Israel took out there were 15.6 civilian losses. This is an average of numbers given. Of course Israel claims to have killed 400 Hizbollah fighters which would put it at roughly the same percentage.

ETA- this does not mean I am justifying any of those deaths. I, as stated before, believe in nonviolence.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:13 pm

koan wrote: I'm applying for dual citizenship with the UK because my grandmother is from England. It is common practice.

Surely a former resident has the right to bring their children with them. The people in charge of determining these things have declared the offspring to be refugees so the number count isn't really up to you, or me. It has already been decided.

Being that it is an internationally recognised right, I support the right of return. It seems you do as well but you've added a condition in: That they leave their immediate family behind.

exceptionally poor logic. how many of those alive in 1946 are alive today?

interesting though. you seem to be saying that the palestinians may apply for israeli citizenship? works for me.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:15 pm

anastrophe wrote: no, israel is a sovereign nation. end of story.

i beg to differ. they are indeed mindless, religous militant thugs.

i have no "fondness" for the term. i wish it didn't exist. sadly, the actions of those thus named prevents it.

unfortunately, judeofascists aren't blowing themselves up in gaza. not a one. islamofascists believe they have a mandate from allah to wipe every last jew from the face of the earth. for that matter, everyone who is not muslim.

and they're working hard in that effort. the extremist mullahs rule the airwaves of the middle east. they incite muslims to martyrdom with promises of paradise populated with virgins. no such creed exists among the jews. the jews want to live in their tiny little country. most do not have visions of expansionism, or of destroying all their muslim neighbors.

Missed this, must have been posting at the same time or something.

Yes Israel is a sovereign power. No one is disputing that. Palestine as a sovereign nation never got off the ground. I would refer you to my earlier link.

http://www.salaam.co.uk/themeofthemonth ... x.php?l=11

That it is also an occupying power I assume you no longer dispute, else why are you making playof the lands they are giving back to the palestinians in Gaza. Yes I did see settlers being forcibly removed by israeli troops and the land turned over it was well reported here as was the fact that sharon had been one of the instigators of their being there in the first place as part of a process to claim the land for Israel. The fact the land they settled on wasn't theirs in the first place wouldn't have mattered if they hadn't kicked the original owners off in the 21st century. Nowadays that kind of thing is frowned upon.

I mention the apparent fondness of islamofascist as yours was the first use of the term I have seen.

They are not mindless, far from it they are highly intelligent and becoming increasingly sophisticated at guerrilla warfare and for mindless thugs are giving one of the most powerful armies in the world a run for their money.

Hamas started in response to Israeli occupation of the gaza strip, hezbollah in response to the israeli invasion of lebanon. They were attacked by a sovereign state they could not fight in a conventional way gueirrilla warfare and terrorism-as used by the israelis themselves before they had their state are all they could fight with.

In both christianity and judaism (I assume it's the same in judaism) sucides go to hell. Apart from that all monotheistic religons are all the same in that they all produce their fanatics. How many fundamentalist christians will back israel no matter what because they think the bible tells them they must and deplore the lack of religon in modern society and if given half a chance would impose their beliefs on everybody around them and then criticise islamic fundamentalists because they believe everybody must be moslem because it says so in the koran? They might not commit suicide but they are right on for a holy war and just as rabid in their beliefs.

The whole situation is insane with fanatics who won't compromise on both sides and who seem to want to destroy the other. Take away all the fancy weapons and give them all clubs instead at least then they wouldn't be killing innocents by accident and having to apologise for it.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:15 pm

Bryn Mawr wrote: Not this time my friend - not even the Israelis tried to claim this was a launch site.

okay. and what did they claim it was?

And 80% millitary casualties when deliberately targetting civilian residential districts in Israel must have been shocking bad luck.

i haven't seen that number quoted. do you have a citation?

As I said in a previous post, anyone who deliberately kills civilians is evil - and that includes air strikes on residential areas and tanks collapsing homes on their occupants.

the question is, was the strike you cited deliberate?

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:27 pm

anastrophe wrote: exceptionally poor logic. how many of those alive in 1946 are alive today?

interesting though. you seem to be saying that the palestinians may apply for israeli citizenship? works for me.

your beef is with the logic of these people: UNRWA, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East, was established by United Nations General Assembly resolution 302

UNRWA is unique in terms of its long-standing commitment to one group of refugees and its contributions to the welfare and human development of four generations of Palestine refugees. Originally envisaged as a temporary organization, the Agency has gradually adjusted its programmes to meet the changing needs of the refugees. Today, UNRWA is the main provider of basic services - education, health, relief and social services - to over 4.3 million registered Palestine refugees in the Middle East.

And these people: Under the Israeli Law of Return most people of Jewish heritage can immigrate to Israel and receive Israeli citizenship with all the privileges and obligations thereto.

why does their own law only apply to Jewish people?

Some Zionists argue that ever since the destruction of the Second Temple in the year 70 CE, Jews have prayed three times a day for return to their ancestral homeland.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:31 pm

anastrophe wrote: the question is, was the strike you cited deliberate?

The Israelis know that there civilians in the targets they select. These

atrocities, by them, are of course *quite* deliberate.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:41 pm

gmc wrote: Missed this, must have been posting at the same time or something.

Yes Israel is a sovereign power. No one is disputing that.
actually, quite a number of those responding in this thread dispute that vehemently. they want to see the state of israel abolished, and the jews driven out.

Palestine as a sovereign nation never got off the ground. I would refer you to my earlier link.

part of the reason being that palestine, for most of the last several thousand years, has been occupied by one power or another. as a "state", it never existed. it's a shame that that region has been overrun countless times by people from all over the region. has there ever been a time that 'palestine' was not occupied by other than the palestinians?

That it is also an occupying power I assume you no longer dispute, else why are you making playof the lands they are giving back to the palestinians in Gaza. Yes I did see settlers being forcibly removed by israeli troops and the land turned over it was well reported here as was the fact that sharon had been one of the instigators of their being there in the first place as part of a process to claim the land for Israel. The fact the land they settled on wasn't theirs in the first place wouldn't have mattered if they hadn't kicked the original owners off in the 21st century. Nowadays that kind of thing is frowned upon.
and as has been pointed out, israel has been trying, with some success, to make amends for those incursions. they withdrew from lebanon. they've withdrawn from gaza. the west bank is a tough one, as jordan gave up their claim to it in their peace accord with israel - but it wasn't formally claimed by anyone else. part of that accord was to negotiate for a palestinian state. which hasn't gone terribly well.

I mention the apparent fondness of islamofascist as yours was the first use of the term I have seen.
it's not a new word, contrary to what some maintain.

They are not mindless, far from it they are highly intelligent and becoming increasingly sophisticated at guerrilla warfare and for mindless thugs are giving one of the most powerful armies in the world a run for their money.

perhaps rather than mindless, i should say heartless. again, the extremist mullahs do not want peace with israel. they want israel and all the jews to be "removed", preferred method, by killing them. that these extremists have free-reign of the airwaves in the arab world tends to suggest tacit agreement with their ideology by the major powers that be. that's rather obviously shown by the iranian lunatic who quite clearly says he wants to see israel 'dissolved'. yet his country doesn't even share a border with it.

In both christianity and judaism (I assume it's the same in judaism) sucides go to hell. Apart from that all monotheistic religons are all the same in that they all produce their fanatics. How many fundamentalist christians will back israel no matter what because they think the bible tells them they must and deplore the lack of religon in modern society and if given half a chance would impose their beliefs on everybody around them and then criticise islamic fundamentalists because they believe everybody must be moslem because it says so in the koran? They might not commit suicide but they are right on for a holy war and just as rabid in their beliefs.

the problem is that this one small component - and it's not just limited to suicide, it includes the notion that martyrs - those who kill jews - go to heaven - is enough to lend them a great number of bodies to throw at the 'problem'. when the ideology says that you'll go to paradise if you kill a jew - well. the problem is further compounded by the fact that this mentality is popular. a similar mentality of going to heaven for killing is far less pronounced in western society. we here in the US have the lunatic eric rudolph, who believe that killing innocent people at an abortion clinic was justified. those people are very few, and very far between. certainly nowhere near the population in islam who are ready to sacrifice themselves for paradise.

The whole situation is insane with fanatics who won't compromise on both sides and who seem to want to destroy the other. Take away all the fancy weapons and give them all clubs instead at least then they wouldn't be killing innocents by accident and having to apologise for it.

that's nice, but it's also utopian. it solves nothing, since that's never going to happen. i still maintain that there's a hell of a lot more fanatics - of the kill for the sake of killing variety - outside of israel.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:44 pm

Bill Sikes wrote: The Israelis know that there civilians in the targets they select. These

atrocities, by them, are of course *quite* deliberate.

that's an interesting opinion but merely an opinion.

here's a small difference: hezbollah objective is to kill as many jews as possible. israel's military and bombing capability is sufficient that they could easily have killed tens of thousands of civilians by this point if that was their objective.

so if it is so obvious that their bombing of civilians is "*quite* deliberate", then why aren't there tens of thousands of lebanese civilians dead?

Issie · Post by **Issie** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:46 pm

exceptionally poor logic. how many of those alive in 1946 are alive today?

I was born in 1946, I lost my mother 2 years ago and she was born in 1916.

I lost my father born in 1914, a broken man full of cancer and filled with the cancer of hate.

Do your maths that makes me 60 years old and ****ing proud of it.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:48 pm

koan wrote: your beef is with the logic of these people: UNRWA, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East, was established by United Nations General Assembly resolution 302

my question for you is, if the laws were changed, to allow the repatriation of palestinians into israel, would you accept that? or is your goal the expulsion of the jews from israel? do you deny that the jews have a right to live there too, that only the palestinians have a right to live there?

don't forget, jews have lived in the region as a minority continuously for thousands of years. it used to be considered a wonderful thing when a minority could assert itself.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:50 pm

Issie wrote: exceptionally poor logic. how many of those alive in 1946 are alive today?

I was born in 1946, I lost my mother 2 years ago and she was born in 1916.

I lost my father born in 1914, a broken man full of cancer and filled with the cancer of hate.

Do your maths that makes me 60 years old and ****ing proud of it.

are you a palestinian shepherd? no? then wtf are you prattling on about?

if a child was born outside of israel, after its creation as a state, then they can't claim to be 'returning to their homeland'. i consider the place that i was born to be my homeland. don't you?

Post by **spot** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:51 pm

anastrophe wrote: not sure i'm following you. is your beef that fewer have been removed from the west bank than from the gaza strip? acknowledged. so what? aren't some better than none? is positive effort to be condemned because 'it's not good enough'?Stop being so defensive, I asked a fair question, I don't need your interpretation of what I might have meant by asking it.

You need calling on the occasional howler, dear boy. What do you mean by "israel forcibly removed its own settlers from the west bank"? What bit of the west bank? When? How many did they remove, vis a vis those they left in situ? If we can put your claim into some context here it might help us greatly.

West Bank, remember. What bit, when and how many.

Thank you.Perhaps you could describe this "positive effort" in numerical terms with regard to place and - at the very least - year. What bit, when and how many is a perfectly fair question. We're specifically deiscussing the West Bank.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:52 pm

Issie wrote: exceptionally poor logic. how many of those alive in 1946 are alive today?

I was born in 1946, I lost my mother 2 years ago and she was born in 1916.

I lost my father born in 1914, a broken man full of cancer and filled with the cancer of hate.

Do your maths that makes me 60 years old and ****ing proud of it.

let me amend that last. i do extend my sympathies for your loss of your father. i'm curious who he hated - but that's certainly not my business so i don't expect a response.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:57 pm

spot wrote: Stop being so defensive, I asked a fair question, I don't need your interpretation of what I might have meant by asking it.

You need calling on the occasional howler, dear boy. What do you mean by "israel forcibly removed its own settlers from the west bank"? What bit of the west bank? When? How many did they remove, vis a vis those they left in situ? If we can put your claim into some context here it might help us greatly.

West Bank, remember. What bit, when and how many.

Thank you.

Perhaps you could describe this "positive effort" in numerical terms with regard to place and - at the very least - year. What bit, when and how many is a perfectly fair question. We're specifically deiscussing the West Bank.
you were specifically discussing the west bank. i misspoke, i was in error in suggesting that israel had 'withdrawn its settlers from the west bank'. israel has withdrawn some settlers from the west bank. by no means all. the question i would pose back is this: if one of the goals of this is to allow palestinians to return to their homeland, that would suggest letting some return to israel. if they did so peacefully, that would be a wonderful thing. if the west bank is finally turned into a formal, sovereign palestinian state, will israelis be barred from that land, as the israelis have barred the palestinians from israel? if so, how is that progress?

am i digressing? yes. you've made your point. i withdraw the suggestion that 'israel has withdrawn its settlers from the west bank'. israel has withdrawn some of its settlers from the west bank. by no means many, most, or all. fair enough?

israel has withdrawn all of its settlers from the gaza strip. and removed its military occupation. israel gradually withdrew from lebanon over the last (some number of) years. there are still disputed regions, such as the shebaa farms region, which is the result of the french buggering up the maps, in reality.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:59 pm

anastrophe wrote: okay. and what did they claim it was?

They kept stum

anastrophe wrote: i haven't seen that number quoted. do you have a citation?

12 as a percentage of 15?

anastrophe wrote: the question is, was the strike you cited deliberate?

As deliberate as all the others - they then hit the mourners during the funeral of 41 of the victims.

Post by **spot** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:03 pm

anastrophe wrote: here's a small difference: hezbollah objective is to kill as many jews as possible.that's an interesting opinion but merely an opinion.

My own view is that they took the minimum steps necessary to goad Israel into losing control of circumstances - not difficult, that bit - and that they continue in the same vein. I'm perfectly certain that Israeli civilian deaths are not an objective of their leadership. The deliberate mocking of IDF troops outside of Israeli territory fits that picture too. If the high-tech-killing nations could just control their knee-jerk responses to gnat-bites, none of these minor players would have a voice in national destinies at all. The power is handed to them, they don't inherently possess any in their own right.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:04 pm

anastrophe wrote: that's an interesting opinion but merely an opinion.

here's a small difference: hezbollah objective is to kill as many jews as possible. israel's military and bombing capability is sufficient that they could easily have killed tens of thousands of civilians by this point if that was their objective.

so if it is so obvious that their bombing of civilians is "*quite* deliberate", then why aren't there tens of thousands of lebanese civilians dead?

Because the rest of the world is looking on and genocide is frowned on?

Post by **spot** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:05 pm

anastrophe wrote: i withdraw the suggestion that 'israel has withdrawn its settlers from the west bank'. israel has withdrawn some of its settlers from the west bank. by no means many, most, or all. fair enough?Not in the least - you claim that "israel has withdrawn some of its settlers from the west bank. by no means many, most, or all" - I'm asking for sufficient detail of that claim to be able to appreciate its import. What bit of the west bank? When? How many did they remove, vis a vis those they left in situ? If we can put your claim into some context here it might help us greatly.

West Bank, remember. What bit, when and how many.

Thank you.

Issie · Post by **Issie** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:05 pm

exceptionally poor logic. how many of those alive in 1946 are alive today?

No, I`m not a palestinian shepherd, my reply was to your stupid statement above, maths is obviously not one of your better subjects.

let me amend that last. i do extend my sympathies for your loss of your father. i'm curious who he hated - but that's certainly not my business so i don't expect a response.

I`ll tell you one day when you stop the personal insults.....

I had already posted my sympathy with regards to your father somewhere on this forum.

Guess you missed it, but whether you believe me or not. I actually meant it.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:12 pm

Bryn Mawr wrote: They kept stum

?

12 as a percentage of 15?
no, obviously i was referring to the figure you posted, the part i quoted. again:

And 80% millitary casualties when deliberately targetting civilian residential districts in Israel must have been shocking bad luck.

As deliberate as all the others - they then hit the mourners during the funeral of 41 of the victims.

well, clearly you choose to believe that all civilians killed by the israelis were intentionally targeted. that's an opinion. there's no opinion necessary with regard to hezbollah's killing of civilians. they've stated so openly - their desire is to kill as many jews as possible, civilians, military, men, women, children, it doesn't matter. so no opinion even enters into the equation.

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:13 pm

anastrophe wrote: my question for you is, if the laws were changed, to allow the repatriation of palestinians into israel, would you accept that?
yes

or is your goal the expulsion of the jews from israel?
no

do you deny that the jews have a right to live there too, that only the palestinians have a right to live there?
I do not nor have I ever denied that the jews have a right to live there which answers both parts of the question.

don't forget, jews have lived in the region as a minority continuously for thousands of years. it used to be considered a wonderful thing when a minority could assert itself.
what does that mean? I have not forgotten or denied that jews have lived as a minority in the region for thousands of years. I still consider it a wonderful thing when a minority asserts itself, especially through nonviolent action.

If you are trying to say that the Israeli army is a minority in the occupied territories and they are asserting themselves...I think better wording would be in order.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:14 pm

Issie wrote: exceptionally poor logic. how many of those alive in 1946 are alive today?

No, I`m not a palestinian shepherd, my reply was to your stupid statement above, maths is obviously not one of your better subjects.

you still don't get it. okay.

let me amend that last. i do extend my sympathies for your loss of your father. i'm curious who he hated - but that's certainly not my business so i don't expect a response.

I`ll tell you one day when you stop the personal insults.....

I had already posted my sympathy with regards to your father somewhere on this forum.

Guess you missed it, but whether you believe me or not. I actually meant it.

i appreciated your sympathies. i extended mine. it's a shame you can't accept them graciously as well, separate and apart from this, which is why i extended them in the first place. oh well.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:16 pm

anastrophe wrote:

here's a small difference: hezbollah objective is to kill as many jews as possible. israel's military and bombing capability is sufficient that they could easily have killed tens of thousands of civilians by this point if that was their objective.

Interesting artical at :-

http://www.townhall.com/News/NewsArticl ... 7e5f4f8bf9

I wouldn't guarantee the figures but, as it's an American rag, I don't imagine it skews them too much :-

Since the fighting began, at least 700 people have died on the Lebanese side. The Israeli toll stood at 103 killed _ including 36 civilians.

Issie · Post by **Issie** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:16 pm

i appreciated your sympathies. i extended mine. it's a shame you can't accept them graciously as well, separate and apart from this, which is why i extended them in the first place. oh well.

I did accept them graciously, but this is not the time or the place to expand on the subject.

Post by **spot** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:17 pm

anastrophe wrote: there's no opinion necessary with regard to hezbollah's killing of civilians. they've stated so openly - their desire is to kill as many jews as possible, civilians, military, men, women, children, it doesn't matter.Perhaps you could demonstrate the way you'd like your "do you have a citation?" to be responded to in this thread - do you have a citation with regard to "they've stated so openly", in the context of the list you appended? I think it comes from your own head, not from hezbollah. A citation actually from hezbollah as opposed to one of their avowed enemies would be nice. A citation from one of their avowed enemies would be educational.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:21 pm

koan wrote:

If you are trying to say that the Israeli army is a minority in the occupied territories and they are asserting themselves...I think better wording would be in order.

look at map and tell me that israel isn't a tiny little country, with a small population, surrounded on all sides by nations that want them gone. i'd say they're a minority. they aren't a minority in israel, obviously. they became the majority.

the peace process, which has throughout history been a slow, tedious process where borders, ownership, and other claims are in dispute, was moving forward. there had been setbacks and steps forward. but negotiations had been moving forward.

something happened to stop that peaceful process. determining who started it, as has been pointed out, accomplishes nothing in terms of resuming a path towards peace. stopping the fighting, on both sides, will allow the peace process to move forward again.

i don't know if jews and palestinians living in peace, side by side, will happen in my lifetime. i'd like to think it's possible. up until a month or so ago, things were peaceful - there was no war raging. this is the first time in quite a long while that a pitched battle has been raging between israel and its neighbors.

note - saying things were peaceful before this conflict began isn't to suggest that it was wine and roses.

i have no concluding point here, besides despair that the israelis and palestinians can't embrace each other.