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gmc wrote: One thing that strikes me about all these posts is that no one mentions sex education. I am pro choice but what annoys me about a lot of anti abortionists is that they are by and large agaionst sex education as well, its the sheer hypocrisy that denies a teenager knowledge and access to contraceptives and them condemns them for getting pregnant.


AIUI there is more sex education in the UK than exer before... and more

teenage pregnancy/abortion, although of course the last two are not

necessarily linked.

gmc wrote: Abortion is not a method of contraception its a last resort and should only be used in extremis. You may not approve of sexually active children but it is human nature to be interested and to deny knowledge to prepubescent children ignores human nature.


I agree with the above....



gmc wrote: We have similar debates, our society is perhaps more secular than the US so the religious aspect is less prominent but we also look to europe particularly scandanavia and countries like Holland that have more open attitudes to sex, teenage pregnancy is the lowest in europe because the girls in partucular know enough to turn round and say no, interestingly enough the average age of first sexual experiance is actually higher than in the UK and US.


We have a different social system to that of Scandinavia, Holland or the U.S.A. though. There seems to be less parental concern/involvement here.



gmc wrote: Knowledge is power not an invitation to have more sex, the kids don't fall for you don't get pregnant if you do it standing up type of legend because they know better. The naughty mystery is taken away. Peer group pressure is not to get pregnant in the first place because that is stupid and can be avoided.


It doesn't seem to work that way here, though. I don't know why.



gmc wrote: Simply saying don't do it doesn't work.


Look at the figures for child pregnancy over the last 50 years, say. What has

happened to them. Why??

AIUI there is more sex education in the UK than exer before... and more

teenage pregnancy/abortion, although of course the last two are not

necessarily linked.


Moot point, most teachers will tell you that sex education is sketchy at best you can't talk about it without going in to the mechanics which upsets the more conservative parents who think it encourages teenage sex so the upshot is there is perhaps not enough information just enough to be embarrasing so kids in a situation leading to sex are too embarrassed to turn round and say no or tell the boy to get a condom. It would be more enlightening to caompare stats of teenagers who have had full blown sex education and their rates of teenage pregnancy with those who have not. Social deprivation comes in to it as well where you have low aspirations you tend to live for the day rather than think ahead.

Statistics are wonderful but only information that taken out of context tells you little. For instance the average person in the UK has less than two legs. Useful statistic but do you actually understand more about the way people walk because you now know the average number of legs?

Also if you are a teenager how do you get your hands on contraceptives?

Look at the figures for child pregnancy over the last 50 years, say. What has

happened to them. Why??


Two things, it's no longer being swept under the carpet and more can elect to keep the child, that is why there are also fewer children up for adoption nowadays. Whereas before they had a back street abortion or were whisked out of sight to have the child that was then taken off them. Nobody talked about it because it was socially unacceptable, that doesn't mean it didn't happen. being a bastard does not have the stigma it used to.

We have a different social system to that of Scandinavia, Holland or the U.S.A. though. There seems to be less parental concern/involvement here.


To the first I would sat that it is a spurious arguement and to the second cobblers .

Try being a politician closing down a local primary school or primary care hospital and see how involved parents become when it matters to them.

Part of the problem is that parents that want to get involved on school boards etc tend to be the ones with the time i.e. middle class non working and often with their own agenda they want to push like stopping sex education in schools and caring for the moral fabric of society which has more to do with what they think it should be than what it is for most people.

Sikes> Look at the figures for child pregnancy over the last 50 years, say.

Sikes>What has happened to them. Why??



gmc wrote: Two things, it's no longer being swept under the carpet and more can elect to keep the child, that is why there are also fewer children up for adoption nowadays. Whereas before they had a back street abortion or were whisked out of sight to have the child that was then taken off them. Nobody talked about it because it was socially unacceptable, that doesn't mean it didn't happen. being a bastard does not have the stigma it used to.


Were there were fewer child pregnancies, the same, or more?

Probably more the difference being it was such a scandal that accurate statistics are not available as the social mores of the time precluded being open about such things. What is also not taken in to account is the number of back street abortions that took place, there are stats on how many women died as s result of such activities but not how many terminations were successful-it was illegal after all.

Before the advent of the pill and more common availability of contraceptives there were probably far more than is accounted for. We don't have the big orphanages that there used to be in this country, why do you think that is? How many people now in their late forties and fifties were forced to give a child up for adoption, that's why recent changes in the law allow children to trace their natural parents if they want to do so.

http://www.jrf.org.uk/pressroom/releases/300604.asp

Even in the 50's and 60's it was common practice for married women to leave work if they got married, how tough do you think it was for a single parent. Even nowadays there is the assumption that a teenage mother is a slag when it may have been the first time they had sex and got pregnant because they didn't know any better. At least nowdays they don't get thrown out the house on to the street which is where a lot of caring parents dumped their daughters if they got pregnant because of the shame they brought to the household.

The past is not some rosy place we have all come from there is a darker side as well

But do you think there were fewer child pregnancies, the same, or more?

Personally i think there were more.

I'm against abortion, except when the mother's life is in danger.

you were saved.. did you know that...

I would've said that I am against abortion until last year, thankfully or not however you want to see it I miscarry faster than I fall pregnant so never actually had to make the choice.

Before and after I have thought about this long and hard, I was half way through the first year of training and I have no family down here to help with child care etc. so at the end of the day if I had gone full term then I would've had to leave my training.

Abortion was something I seriously considered. Since the option was taken away from me I have been far safer and the same mistake won't happen again, I actually breathed a sigh of relief when the cramps and bleeding began.

It is scary to think that I put my career before a childs life though, but at the same time I thought and still think, that would be two lives messed up and I may have even been resentful for that, causing even more heartache at the end of the day.

KlatunIckto wrote: Please see the documentary The Silent Scream.



Also Iam sure most of you are glad your Mothers didnt throw you away.



I if I must be labbled am pro-life.
I haven't seen the documentary. Who made it?



I'm shocked by the "mothers didn't throw you away " line. It was probably your intent to shock, which is perfectly ok.



It's just really sad to me that you view the world this way. Life is a gift, not an obligation. Do you know what I mean? Since our mothers did give birth to us all, that was an individual choice she made, probably from love. It deserves better than obligation. It deserves love and respect in return.

I recall, back in highschool, watching a film about the women in China and how, due to the population problem, they were forced by the government to have abortions if they attempted to have more than one child. In China, pro-choice represents the right to have a child more so than to abort one. To me, this builds the arguement that choice is the essential arguement. Where a government may control people's bodies there is nothing but oppression.

Are You Pregnant? Congratulations!

If you speak to me, Paula, I am pregnant only with ideas...and quite happy about it.

the title is about life? thats what i thought?

KlatunIckto wrote: :-5 Yes Iam back.



Maybe its a language thing Im not sure but senior member 'karenia' or something like that to your 1st query the silent scream was made by one of the foremost butchers of unborn babies a surgeon who one day realized what evil he had done and joined our little organization the pro-life movement,and contributed this remarkable film to pro-life and the world.

Now after saying 'our' movement one must conclude Iam a member of the American right to life,and int. pro life movement to which one would be correct.

Thus your 2nd and 3rd statements make absolutely no sense as I said it may be a language understanding problem from your side of the table who knows.
I just wrote a post to try and explain what I meant in my post...but after re-reading this, with opening comments about language problems in response to a perfectly valid question of who made a movie...why bother?



I'll leave it at this - believe whatever you want to believe, but don't impose it on my body.

KlatunIckto wrote: It is unfortunate we cant see one anothers facial expressions,and be clear on how or what someone has said rather than a few typed words that can so easially be misconstrued. :-5
Very true. It's way too easy to have misunderstandings through our posts. I apologize for misjudging your words. Please quit banging your head against that wall...it's giving me a headache. (grin)



I'm sincerely glad that we can agree that life is a wonderful gift.

A Karenina wrote: I'm shocked by the "mothers didn't throw you away " line. It was probably your intent to shock, which is perfectly ok.


Heard of Spike Milligan? He wrote a poem called "Unto Us".

I'm pro-choice. I don't think any religious institution or state should be allowed to tell you any different.

The thing that annoys me about the anti-abortion movement is that they are often also anti sex education and making contraceptives freely available. It's as if they think they and only they can decide what is right for people. They are also the first to condemn teenage pregnancy yet see no connection to lack of information and access to contraceptives preferring to condemn the morals of society. The church of the tut tutters, pleased to see a fallen woman so they can tut tut and feel sanctimonious.

gmc wrote: The thing that annoys me about the anti-abortion movement is that they are often also anti sex education and making contraceptives freely available. It's as if they think they and only they can decide what is right for people. They are also the first to condemn teenage pregnancy yet see no connection to lack of information and access to contraceptives preferring to condemn the morals of society. The church of the tut tutters, pleased to see a fallen woman so they can tut tut and feel sanctimonious.
:yh_clap

Thank you for making these points. "Sanctimonious" is EXACTLY the right word for these people. Bravo...

gmc wrote: The thing that annoys me about the anti-abortion movement is that they are often also anti sex education and making contraceptives freely available.


AFAIK, we currently have (in England and Wales) a) sex education that parents have to positively opt out of, if they wish, and b) free availability of contraceptives.

I will ask a contact at the local middle-school how many parents stop their children attending sex education classes.

posted by bill sikes

AFAIK, we currently have (in England and Wales) a) sex education that parents have to positively opt out of, if they wish, and b) free availability of contraceptives.

I will ask a contact at the local middle-school how many parents stop their children attending sex education classes




Much talked about often little practiced. There is this idea if you don't mention ses teenagers won't experiment. In Scotland there is talk of giving catholic schools exemption from teaching sex eduvation, allowing themn to teach the corredt catholic method, personally I think it should be taught.

Just to stir things up a little

http://www.eugenics-watch.com/roots/chap13.html

http://www.eugenics-watch.com/roots/index.html

posted by bill sikes

AFAIK, we currently have (in England and Wales) a) sex education that parents have to positively opt out of, if they wish, and b) free availability of contraceptives.

I will ask a contact at the local middle-school how many parents stop their children attending sex education classes



gmc wrote: Much talked about often little practiced.


Er, what is?

posted by bill sikes

Er, what is?


Sorry, what I meant was is that there is a lot of talk about sex education in schools but in practice very little is.

good point, I'm a female & I 've never understood why these people that support abortion or the right to "choose" don't see the ability to use birth control or not is the right to choose. The idea of "accidential" pregnancy strikes me as so out dated it's unreal to ever refer to a pregnancy as accidential

I find opposition to sex education and free provision of contraceptives ludicrous. It is the most personal of decisions whether to use contraceptives or not or whether to have sex or not. The idea that someone can decide for you is incredible.

If you choose not to use contraceptives that is up to you but to force others to follow suit is ridiculous. If you do not want to know about sex that is your choice, but to impose that choice on others is ridiculous. It's all about control people should be free to choose themselves.

gmc wrote: I find opposition to sex education and free provision of contraceptives ludicrous. It is the most personal of decisions whether to use contraceptives or not or whether to have sex or not. The idea that someone can decide for you is incredible.

If you choose not to use contraceptives that is up to you but to force others to follow suit is ridiculous. If you do not want to know about sex that is your choice, but to impose that choice on others is ridiculous. It's all about control people should be free to choose themselves.


Is this to "lynny"? I thought she was saying that the use of contraceptives precludes the possibility of most pregnancies, so abortion should not be so much used - not that sex education and contraception should not be available.

posted by bill sikes

Is this to "lynny"? I thought she was saying that the use of contraceptives precludes the possibility of most pregnancies, so abortion should not be so much used - not that sex education and contraception should not be available.


Nope, if I was speaking to some post I would quote it, it was just a general rant restating my attitiude. I think lynny and I agree.

I see no reason what so ever to have an abortion, thats why we have adoption. There are many many loving couples who cant have children and someone who was just having fun gets pregnant throws away someone elese dream. Having and abortion is murder any way you look at it. If you dont want a child dont get pregnant, if you do get pregnant grow up and take care of of your child!

lynny wrote: good point, I'm a female & I 've never understood why these people that support abortion or the right to "choose" don't see the ability to use birth control or not is the right to choose. The idea of "accidential" pregnancy strikes me as so out dated it's unreal to ever refer to a pregnancy as accidential
Copied from AOL hometown: Here are effective percentages for the most popular methods of Birth control so you see even using the Pill 3 out of every 100 times, pregnancy can occur.:Condoms- Work because sperm are kept inside the condom and can’t get to the egg. The condom works even better when used with spermicides or birth control film. Some people may be allergic to latex. Can be bought in a drug store. 88% effective. Protects against STDs



Spermicides- Work because they kill the sperm before they get to the egg. Some people may have an allergic reaction. Can be bought in a drug store. 79% effective. Do not protect against STDs



Diaphragms- Work because they cover the cervix so sperm cannot get in. Should be used with spermicides. More convenient than condoms because it can be put in up to 6 hours before sex. May cause slight irritation in either person. Must be fitted by a doctor. 82% effective. Protects against some STDs.



The Cap- A smaller version of the diaphragm. Must be fitted by a doctor. 82% effective. Protects against some STDs.



Birth Control Film- Works because it turns into a gel that covers the cervix and kills sperm. You must wait 15 minutes before having sex so the film can melt and a new piece must be used each time. Can be bought in a drug store. 79% effective. Does not protect against STDs.



Female Condom- Works because sperm are kept inside and can’t get to the egg. This type of condom may be difficult to use at first. Can be bought in a drug store.

79% effective. Protects against STDs.



The Pill- Works because eggs do not leave the ovaries for fertilization. The pill must be remembered every day to be effective. Must be prescribed by a doctor. Some

mild symptoms such as weight and mood changes, and bleeding at odd times may

occur at first but disappear within a few months. 97% effective. Does not protect against STDs

The amount less than 100% are Accidental Pregnanies! :-3

samanthaguy wrote: I see no reason what so ever to have an abortion, thats why we have adoption. There are many many loving couples who cant have children and someone who was just having fun gets pregnant throws away someone elese dream. Having and abortion is murder any way you look at it. If you dont want a child dont get pregnant, if you do get pregnant grow up and take care of of your child!


i don't think thats fair to say really. in some cases 'accidental pregnancy' for example then i can see your point but there are cases such as when a woman is raped, it is understandable that she might not want to keep the child. yeah i can see what you're saying but i don't think you can generalise about something like this. Health is also an issue.

anastrophe wrote: I don't doubt that. however, that merely reinforces my argument that it is a matter of personal definition rather than science.



yup.


Something dies, what ever you call it, that is a scientific fact. Tissue, baby, fetus what ever you call it, iti s dead after an abortion.

Death is a lousy solution. Both by my beleifs and science, if it were not self preservation would not be our strongest inbred reaction.

Let me give this debate another turn. In the vast majority of abortions, the action causing the need for abortion was the free will action of the person needing the abortion.

They were not responcible enough to have their partner wear a condom, nor responcible enough to go to planned Parenthood and get on the pill, our use an IUD or any other method of birth control. If they were not responcible enough to take any of these actions, why do we allow them the responcibilty of deciding life or death on something that was given no say on it's being brought into existence?

OK...I get to have an opinion in this thread for the simple fact that I have experience with both sides of the equation.

When I was an infant, my mother was a poor college girl in the 1960's. She was destitute. She knew that she could not afford to raise me and even if she tried both her life and mine would have been compromised.

So she put me up for adoption.

I was very lucky I won the lottery on adoptive parents. My father was a WWII Ace and a Physics professor. My mother was an English teacher. Both of them took very good care of me and were loving parents. They were able to give me a very good life indeed. I have flown fighter planes myself, and now I am a teacher with three college degrees and a wonderful family.

So you'd think I'd be anti-abortion, wouldn't you? If my mother had chosen that path I would have never been born. Sorry, I'm pro-choice. Here in New Mexico, adn get this....

Half of all births last year were to single teenage mothers.

Worse yet, of those children, half again were born into serious poverty. They will never have the opportunites they could have had and their lives will be seriously impaired by their circumstances. The devastation is enormous. Both the mother's and the child's life is ruined before it starts.

If you advocate abstinence. You are living in a dream world. The schools have tried to teach this for the last quarter century without success. You can't fight Mother Nature and win. The teenage brain is subservient to the teenage hormones.

If you try to teach birth control, you will have a little more success, but not much. And don't even suggest that condoms be handed out at high schools. Then the entire "righteous" public will come down on your head and tell you that you are advocating sex between teenagers.

It's a no win situation.

The other side of the equation? When I went into the Air Force for boot camp, my girlfriend at the time stayed at home. 3 years later, we were living together at college and she was crying one night. I asked her what was wrong. She told me she had had an abortion while I was away and had never told me about it. She hadn't wanted to ruin "our lives together".

What could I say then? I couldn't change the past. All I could do was comfort her and tell her I loved her.

We stayed together for many years, but then when we got married and it was time for me to go abroad, she couldn't leave her little home town. She was afraid of the wide world. She guaranteed that I would leave her by sleeping with another man. She got her wish, it all ended in divorce.

No matter how I felt, that abortion turned out to be a good thing. It allowed us to part ways and continue on to our real destinies. I stayed single for many decades, but eventually I found the woman of my dreams and a wonderful future.

Don't tell me that abortion is bad.

Jives wrote: OK...I get to have an opinion in this thread for the simple fact that I have experience with both sides of the equation.

When I was an infant, my mother was a poor college girl in the 1960's. She was destitute. She knew that she could not afford to raise me and even if she tried both her life and mine would have been compromised.

So she put me up for adoption.

I was very lucky I won the lottery on adoptive parents. My father was a WWII Ace and a Physics professor. My mother was an English teacher. Both of them took very good care of me and were loving parents. They were able to give me a very good life indeed. I have flown fighter planes myself, and now I am a teacher with three college degrees and a wonderful family.

So you'd think I'd be anti-abortion, wouldn't you? If my mother had chosen that path I would have never been born. Sorry, I'm pro-choice. Here in New Mexico, adn get this....

Half of all births last year were to single teenage mothers.

Worse yet, of those children, half again were born into serious poverty. They will never have the opportunites they could have had and their lives will be seriously impaired by their circumstances. The devastation is enormous. Both the mother's and the child's life is ruined before it starts.

If you advocate abstinence. You are living in a dream world. The schools have tried to teach this for the last quarter century without success. You can't fight Mother Nature and win. The teenage brain is subservient to the teenage hormones.

If you try to teach birth control, you will have a little more success, but not much. And don't even suggest that condoms be handed out at high schools. Then the entire "righteous" public will come down on your head and tell you that you are advocating sex between teenagers.

It's a no win situation.

The other side of the equation? When I went into the Air Force for boot camp, my girlfriend at the time stayed at home. 3 years later, we were living together at college and she was crying one night. I asked her what was wrong. She told me she had had an abortion while I was away and had never told me about it. She hadn't wanted to ruin "our lives together".

What could I say then? I couldn't change the past. All I could do was comfort her and tell her I loved her.

We stayed together for many years, but then when we got married and it was time for me to go abroad, she couldn't leave her little home town. She was afraid of the wide world. She guaranteed that I would leave her by sleeping with another man. She got her wish, it all ended in divorce.

No matter how I felt, that abortion turned out to be a good thing. It allowed us to part ways and continue on to our real destinies. I stayed single for many decades, but eventually I found the woman of my dreams and a wonderful future.

Don't tell me that abortion is bad.


What do you mean it's a no win situation. You won buddy, you had your fun ,all the freedom you wanted and never had to face the price of any of your actions. Great life if you can get it------ get it.

jahamaa wrote: What do you mean it's a no win situation. You won buddy, you had your fun ,all the freedom you wanted and never had to face the price of any of your actions. Great life if you can get it------ get it.


So...what experience have you had with abortion? Have you had one?

Jives wrote: So...what experience have you had with abortion? Have you had one?


More than you would know young man and no I"ve not had one. but taking the easy road? On that subject I'm an expert.

If you think a subject has been settled just because you took action, your wrong. Every action you take you pay for, for the rest of your life. See it would be great if the rightness you feel about something today is the way you will feel forever but that ain't the way is.

And when you take a life shaking action sometimes decades later you look back and think "MY God, what have I done." Time will not, repeat not, ease the pain.

On this I ask you to trust me and save yourself a lot of pain. Always take the high road. The pain that you feel now is nothing to the pain of being old and looking back and knowing you really screwed up.

You may think I'm being harsh but beleive it or not I'm trying to keep you from some hurts that don't heal. When you have children think about teaching them what I said above. Wish to hell someone had taught me.

They've got a massive, and I do mean massive population problem. They abort the girl babies, because girls make more babies and they can't feed the ones they have now. This is another good argument for abortion. Without some kind of population control, the population will rise to the point it exhausts the resources of the country. Of course you could argue for birth control and I'd certainly hope you were right, but it didn't work for these two countries, did it?

You'll probably say, "But they aren't as civilized as us." and you'd be right... for now. But with immigration on the upswing, and new immigrants refusing to assimilate into the current population...

Could we be looking at the future of America? Will our own population rise so far and fast as to make this entire thread a moot point? Watch the movie "Soylent Green". It won't surprise me at all if wars of the future are fought for food.

That's one way to get rid of surplus population without abortion.

Is abortion better? or is war better? We may have to decide.

jahamaa wrote: More than you would know young man and no I"ve not had one. but taking the easy road? On that subject I'm an expert.



If you think a subject has been settled just because you took action, your wrong. Every action you take you pay for, for the rest of your life. See it would be great if the rightness you feel about something today is the way you will feel forever but that ain't the way is.



And when you take a life shaking action sometimes decades later you look back and think "MY God, what have I done." Time will not, repeat not, ease the pain.

On this I ask you to trust me and save yourself a lot of pain. Always take the high road. The pain that you feel now is nothing to the pain of being old and looking back and knowing you really screwed up.



You may think I'm being harsh but beleive it or not I'm trying to keep you from some hurts that don't heal. When you have children think about teaching them what I said above. Wish to hell someone had taught me.
I don't understand this at all. Jives' girlfriend got an abortion without telling him - so how did he do wrong? :-3

I'll take the risk of losing some respect here.

I have had an abortion.

Never thought I could ever have done it...but I did. You may think I am going to hell but I've already been there. I suffered. I bled for a year...until I finally realized that I'd killed my own baby and sculpted it from clay so I could give it a proper burial. BUT. I don't assume to tell anyone what to do. I can't tell you if I would have done anything different if I had it to do again. You aren't and weren't me when it happened. I had my reasons. And I am thankful I had the choice.

That is all I have to say.