ForumGarden

Guys and Gals...your support here is very much appreciated...:yh_flower



I make no apologies for seeking and striving for peace in the world for my children and grandchildren...



I am intelligent enough to know that repression and extremism can only be stamped out by armed force.



Enough said....:-6

Paul, your the boss what ever you decide is fine by me. I have reported BTS in the past for just the same kinda of remarks. He doesn't seem to have any boundaries when posting, no holes bard, nasty, rude and in my book not acceptable. When I read them I ask myself, what the heck was he trying to accomplish by such a remark?? and why does he continue this line of attack..??

[QUOTE]as one might guess, i'm pissed off. i don't like FG users attacking other forumgarden users. BTS is shitdisturbing, and i'm poised for imposing a permanent ban.[/QUOTE]

Hope you are ok Bez.

Sorry about the fact this got a little nasty and all.

Maybe you and l got a little too fiesty for some:p

venus wrote: Hope you are ok Bez.

Sorry about the fact this got a little nasty and all.

Maybe you and l got a little too fiesty for some:p


It's Monday morning and a new start to a new week....and it's getting warmer so I'm ready for anything.

We didn't post anything that our hearts don't believe in. :-6

Far Rider wrote: Bez I read back up a bit Ive been staying off this thread, because Jives has been the Voice for me here and represented my views well, you are doing a wonderful job of bringing the other side in. I happen to beleive that our world is made up of pacifist like yourself and my father and persons like me in order to keep the balance of life and power in the proper set. Hopefully with folks with your views and slowness to anger we keep that balance and when the time comes folks like myself and Jives and Arnold are the types of honorable men who go into battle to secure freedoms, defend and protect innocent lives without commmiting atrocities.

Somewhere in this microcosm of the world we call forum garden is the best of all of us.

:yh_flower


Thanks for those words Far. Somewhere along the way people have made assumptions that I am a PACIFIST. This is in fact INCORRECT but I accept that it might sound like it from my posts. I have NEVER actually said that though. Military action is the ONLY way in some situations and I support that 100%. My Brother was in the airforce in the '60s and of course my Dad fought in WW2 in the Royal Engineers right through from 1939 to 1945. He fought in Italy, France and Germany. To be a pacifist would be to dis-honour him.

You and Jives are fearless in the protection of your beliefs and I admire that. As you said we need to keep the scales balanced....and I am a 'Libran' after all

Just a note about my Dad....before the war he played football for our local team which was in a high league. One Saturday in 1939, the victorious team (his) celebrated in the pub....the result...the whole team went to the recruitment office and voluteered to join the army. The team was never the same again until after the war when the survivors returned

BTS (fakeologist) it seems enjoys pushing buttons. So what ? Hes not very good at it and most of his remarks are feeble minded. His comment to Bezzy had nothing to do with her, it was merely an insight into his own personal shortcomings.

Personally I dont see why members get so worked up about his input, hes a fly. Pesky and a nuisance but of no real consequence. His attempts to irritate and inflame other members fall well short of any valid significance. At best hes to be pitied for the intellectual void that inhabits his cavernous and gaping mind. His contributions are succinct and more often than not lacking a reasonable grasp of his surroundings. By my observance it appears to be an under developed frontal lobe issue.

I say let the less than brilliant and blunt minded man ramble and roam at free will.

Hes a brief diversion at worst.

Rock on dude ! :-6

Nomad wrote: Personally I dont see why members get so worked up about his input, hes a fly. Pesky and a nuisance but of no real consequence.


when a fly gets up your nose....it tends to get pretty irritating !!:D

SnoozeControl wrote: And you just never know where they've been.
Out back, peeing. :-3

SnoozeControl wrote: We're sharing a brain, aren't we?:D


You sure you want to go there snoozy ????

Bez wrote: Thanks for those words Far. Somewhere along the way people have made assumptions that I am a PACIFIST. This is in fact INCORRECT but I accept that it might sound like it from my posts.


lol. Not to worry, Bez. I thought you were very clear on your position. And let me make this equally clear, I am not a MILITARIST. For me, war is the absolutely last possible resort. I've seen up close the effect it had on my father and I personally trained many of the young pilots that lost their lives in Desert Storm.

That fact that Scrat and I are so polarized on this issue is because we have differing backgrounds. And, after all, that's exactly why we love forums so much, it

gives us a chance to see and debate things with people who do not think like we do.

To recap:

Scrat - believes that much of the Islamic backlash against America and Israel is a direct result of biased American political and business practices from the last century. Also, deliberate antagonization of the Islamic moderate majority is a bad idea.

Jives - believes that no matter the provocation, slaughter of innocent non-combatants is not a tactic that can be used in a cause. Also, he is of the opinion that since Moderate Muslim population is not taking an active stance against extremism, little consideration should be given to their feelings on the subject.

What's funny about that? Both of us are most likely RIGHT! No wonder the world's political situation is such a mess, eh?:o

posted by jives

Scrat - believes that much of the Islamic backlash against America and Israel is a direct result of biased American political and business practices from the last century. Also, deliberate antagonization of the Islamic moderate majority is a bad idea.

Jives - believes that no matter the provocation, slaughter of innocent non-combatants is not a tactic that can be used in a cause. Also, he is of the opinion that since Moderate Muslim population is not taking an active stance against extremism, little consideration should be given to their feelings on the subject.




America is quite a late player in this game.

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/maproom/palestine.htm

http://www.arab.net/palestine/pe_britishmandate.htm

http://www.arab.net/palestine/pe_britishmandate.htm

First it was trade then it was trade and oil. Throw in nationalism, religon, bigotry, racism, a reluctance on all sides to compromise and boom.

What's funny about that? Both of us are most likely RIGHT! No wonder the world's political situation is such a mess, eh?


Fifty years from now some high school or university student will sit down at an exam and face a question like "What were the main causes for the conflict in the middle east and why did it take so long to resolve" :yh_rotfl

Well it does have to be said Britain has done more than her fair share of messing up other countries...

we still havent got this one running smoothly, despite what Blair thinks...(shudder)

Accountable wrote: Out back, peeing. :-3


:yh_rotfl :yh_rotfl :yh_rotfl

(sigh) Ok, Scrat...round two. But I'm pretty tired right now, mind if I bow out until tomorrow?

Here's a thought for you to think about: "Is it possible that because of the Mideastern situation, America will be forced sooner rather than later to develop a new and revolutionary energy source? And is it further possible that intelligent men, understanding that such a task would never be completed while oil is cheap and available, allowed and possibly even encouraged the current situation?

Never mind me....just the crazy stuff I think of when I'm sleepy.

It'd make a good sci fi story, though.:-2

Scrat, it seems like you hold the Islamic extremists blameless, though I hope it only seems so.



I don't disagree with your view on our historic role in war.



I'm comfortable with attacking when attacked. That means chasing the vermin where they go, asking for cooperation from sovreign nations, not permission, to route out and exterminate. But then we must pull back. We can't save the world; even if we could, it's not our place.



We're in the current situation and have to deal with it as we can. We don't have to react the same way next time. We need some experts somewhere to come up with a new way.



In the meantime, I recommend encouraging our retailers to find inroads to the Middle East. That's the way to destroy their fundamentalism, spoil their kids.

Scrat wrote: No I do not think that Muslim extremists are innocent. There are Muslim mindsets that want a Muslim Empire from Spain to the Pacific ocean regardless of what the people of these lands want.



On the other hand there are people in the west that have the same mindset. If not an empire of peoples and land then empires of currency and influence.



A terrorist sets off a bomb in a Shopping Mall and kills 30 people. An Oligarch buys a factory cheap, tells the people that work there that they are out of work and scraps the whole place for a huge profit. The people are left destitute/hopeless, with nothing.



Do you know what the Russians think of the wests darling Boris Yeltsin? The happy guy who was drunk most of the time? He doesn't leave his dacha without bodyguards. He would most likely be killed. He and his western influenced reforms ensured a decade of poverty for everyday Russians.



And guess who is the enemy? Vladimir Putin. He is bringing Russians better lives.



He is EVIL in the west is he not? A Stalinistic authoritarian dictator.



I wonder where the terrorists come from?



Who creates them? Directly or indirectly.



Why should a Palastinian wash the dishes of the Israelis? Because the Israeli constitution discriminates against them? Because they are Goy like you and me?



Why are the Israelis entitled to Palastinian lands? Because a f*****g 2000 year old book says so?



Kiss my a*s*s, the Israelis get what they deserve in my view.



There is plenty of blame to go around. And there are terrorists on both sides.



I hate hypocrisy.
I don't get why you're not in Russia now, then. I mean, it seems as if that's the only place you see virtue.

Scrat wrote: Конец.
Dem dere's fightin' words where I cum frum .... probly. :driving:

Scrat, i love your ice-age avatar!! it's so you!

Far Rider wrote: Wow you have such a positive outlook, really! You think it will be resolved in 50 years time? Wow!


Why not?

Fifty years ago the west and russia were fighting proxy wars in africa and the middle east. Now at least Russia and the and the west seem unlikely to go to war against each other.

The more people know about each other and the more they travel and mix the less likely they are to be persuaded to go to war against each other. Thirty years ago would you have thought it possible that Russia and its satellites would break up without there being some kind of civil war. Russia and the ukraine squabble but will they go to war? Now if I wanted to I could drive across europe to Moscow.

There was civil war in the balkans but you could argue that that was a conflict held in check by communist rule and old tribal and religious rivalries have to be fought out.

Even in the middle east people just want to live in peace, extremists get support tacit or otherwise when there is a strong enough sense of injustice that can't get expression elsewhere.

How long do you think a theocracy would last in Iran if the iranians were left alone to get on with things, giving them an outside enemy is the best way to keep them in power by distacting attention from other internal problems.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/not_in_websi ... 391703.stm

Irrelevant you might think but how many women bus drivers are there in Saudi arabia and it's not a theocracy. Come to that how long ago was it that women bus drivers would have been a novelty in the UK?

http://libcom.org/news/article.php/iran ... ion-150206

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/articl ... le_id=8313

Bolshie bus drivers in Tehran whatever next.

Nothing is ever resolved by armed conflict, sooner or later people have to sit around and talk even with those they dislike. Hamas has been elected in Palestine-telling the palestinians to hold free elections and then complaining because they elect the wrong leaders isn't terribly constructive. You have two choices, try and work with them or continue the way things have been for years.

The Israeli Government back in 1948 consisted almost entirely of terrorists it's a bit hypocritical to take the moral high ground when terrorism was one of the tools used to bring Israel in to being and pre-emptive warfare made israel the size it is now.

Nelson Mandela was described by both Reagan and Thatcher as a terrorist but he changes his methods to become one of the foremost statesmen of our time.

If you want to compare christian atrocity with muslim atrocity I am not altogether sure that christians would have the least -not if you add in all the ones christian has done to christian.

Do I think things will be better fifty years from now and people of that time will wonder what all the fuss was about? Yes I do.

Give me some reasons why I shouldn't.

tyuiop[]posted by scrat

The west needs to rethink it's definition of respect. As it always has needed too when it comes to the Arab mindset.

It's about respect.


You can still respect someones religon but poke fun at the sanctimonious. I don't care if they are muslim, christian, jewish or followers of the cosmic comedian anyone arguing for the moral superiority of their religon and demanding respect just because they believe a thing deserves to have a cartoon made about it. Our right to be irreverent about religon is a hard fought for part of our culture and if muslims-especially those who live in the west can't respect that then tough.

We make jokes about the pope, JC and his jaggy bunnet why should islam get a free ride because their followers are nuttier.

Personally I think the life of Brian and The Passion of the Christ would have made a good double bill but it's not just muslims who have no sense of humour. You can't laugh at god but for the sake of a sane world you need to continually take the **** out of his would be followers.