I gave up God today

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed May 16, 2007 7:41 pm

I consider myself a Christian pluralist. That is I accept the validity of all the world's great faiths and have great respect for them. I've spent some 40 years in both formal and informal studies and continue my formal studies at the Vancouver School of Theology. I have also been trained in OT and NT translation and interpretation.

I am not out to convert anyone. After all these years I have come to understand that the more I study the more I realize I've yet to learn. I'm not interested in people believing as I do. What one believes is a very personal choice and is in reality none of my business.

If anyone wants to discuss the issues mentioned in the above posts I am interested but as I say your belief or lack thereof is your personal choice.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu May 17, 2007 4:42 am

jimbo;613752 wrote: the trouble with talking to the god squad about god ,faith and everything is they get so heated and wont listen to any thing other than what they think is right ,i on the other hand have an open mind and would really love some one to convince me of a god ,so i am laid back and just saying what i think every one in the god squad see me as personaly attacking their god ,not much chance of a nice chat really is there :wah:
God's existence (or lack) doesn't depend on your belief, just as your being a good guy is true regardless of people believing you're a good guy or not despite your best efforts.

You want proof of God? Go to a pub & pull a draft. Ahhhhh! Now that's Heaven. :-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Thu May 17, 2007 11:22 am

Acc:-6

I'd love a draft but it has been bothering my stomach lately. Damn.

Shalom

Ted:-6

JUDE · Post by **JUDE** » Fri May 18, 2007 8:46 pm

I found this thread during a search about hummingbirds. I have read all six pages. I think the biggest problem here is I can't find Jesus. Jesus is God who manifested Himself to us in the flesh like we are because the priests had everyone so confused about Him. If you want to know God, know JESUS! He knows if you REALLY want to know. If you do, He gives the faith to believe and it is all WONDERFUL from there. His Holy Spirit will guide you into all things. Jesus said "Seek ye FIRST the Kingdom of God and all the other things you have need of will be added unto you. I can attest this is the TRUTH! I've been following him for thirty years as an adult and many years before that as a child. I can truly say, like Paul, I know whom I have believed and I have the same peace that passeth understanding. Organized religion is needful but causes a lot of problems for God's people. I am an active member and administrator in the same Baptist church for the past 30 years and I still see pastors, teachers, and others including myself messing up but I wouldn't trade my church family for anything. Try reading the new testament Gospel of John and his three short epistles; then, Paul's letter to the Romans, and from there you should be ok. Jesus said, "Ask and you shall receive." Let Jesus lead you to the truth.

Jude

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun May 20, 2007 2:24 pm

Jude:-6

Welcome. Jesus is very much here. He can be seen in a great many people.

Shalom

Ted:-6

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Mon May 28, 2007 3:28 am

Last night I read The Alchemist, on a plane, on my way home. I wasnt the least bit afraid to be flying. Read the whole book. My spirit soared. My spiritual quest continues....... I know Im not here alone.

along-for-the-ride · Post by **along-for-the-ride** » Mon May 28, 2007 4:46 pm

Uncle Fester;577232 wrote: I was a Sunday School teacher until out 6 week old son was taken from us 43 years ago , that was when I gave up on him :-1

Here's a hug for you, Uncle Fester. I lost my four month old son quite suddenly to meningitus 35 years ago. I share you pain.

Sometimes I think the existence of God demands of mankind to be humble. We don't have all the answers and we don't have control over everything in life. We are all beautiful and so fallible, but we can still find love and joy at times.

I was raised a Catholic and lived my young life very much in that tradition. I was also a Sunday School teacher for a period of time. I am now no longer a "practicing" Catholic but I still have faith.....and hope....and love.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon May 28, 2007 6:54 pm

I had a sister born with spinabifida. She died at about 4 weeks. It is amazing what a faith can get one through. That's life. **** happens.

Shalom

Ted:-6

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Tue May 29, 2007 4:05 am

I left for a vacation last week. Went down to St. Simons Island in Georgia. Wonderful friends were waiting to greet me. Along with underwear and sox, I packed many stresses as well. Issues that have been bothering me, for months. A miraculous thing happened. All around me, were slogans and passages from books ( Some old, some new.. like The Alchemist) that I needed to hear. The gift is, being able to recognize seemingly random incidents as communication. I was very moved. I shed cleansing tears while I was away. My eyes were opened, my heart was rejuvinated. I took home some great lessons with me. I am taking controll of my life, and my destiny. At 55 I am going to get to know myself all over again. It is imperative that we not allow ourselves to be distracted from the noise, and the physical attractions of this world. For then we are unable to hear our inner voices. Living in the moment, and holding on to our dreams are two elements that keep us feeling alive, and that make us aware that we are so much more than flesh and blood. Thank you God, for a wonderful trip. Thank you for not forgetting me, in spite of the fact that I try quite often to forget your presence in my life. Love to all of you who have lost loved ones, it is that kind of pain that bonds us all together, in spirit. The joy is in the opportunity presented to comfort each other, and to help each other walk on.

Bez · Post by **Bez** » Tue May 29, 2007 6:32 am

weeder;624158 wrote: I left for a vacation last week. Went down to St. Simons Island in Georgia. Wonderful friends were waiting to greet me. Along with underwear and sox, I packed many stresses as well. Issues that have been bothering me, for months. A miraculous thing happened. All around me, were slogans and passages from books ( Some old, some new.. like The Alchemist) that I needed to hear. The gift is, being able to recognize seemingly random incidents as communication. I was very moved. I shed cleansing tears while I was away. My eyes were opened, my heart was rejuvinated. I took home some great lessons with me. I am taking controll of my life, and my destiny. At 55 I am going to get to know myself all over again. It is imperative that we not allow ourselves to be distracted from the noise, and the physical attractions of this world. For then we are unable to hear our inner voices. Living in the moment, and holding on to our dreams are two elements that keep us feeling alive, and that make us aware that we are so much more than flesh and blood. Thank you God, for a wonderful trip. Thank you for not forgetting me, in spite of the fact that I try quite often to forget your presence in my life. Love to all of you who have lost loved ones, it is that kind of pain that bonds us all together, in spirit. The joy is in the opportunity presented to comfort each other, and to help each other walk on.

You sound so positive Laura...I'm happy for you love....keep the faith. .....especially in yourself....

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Tue May 29, 2007 8:30 am

Thank you Bez..... Nice to hear from you. I hope things are very good for you as well. I did lose myself, for quite a while. Its been a long climb up. I feel very alive today... and grateful for JUST today. Love to you, Laura

EmersonBashier · Post by **EmersonBashier** » Tue May 29, 2007 11:25 am

I also read the Alchemist. It is definitely worth the time to read. True, life is a journey and many obstacles fall into our paths. We have to pick ourselves up, plant both feet on the ground and start again. Obstacles make us stronger if we treat it that way. That's my take!

One last comment! I've heard from people who are always talking about Hell and who might be the next resident. You know what I think? THIS LIFE IS IT! Emerson

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Tue May 29, 2007 8:05 pm

weeder:-6

Wonderful!

Shalom

Ted:-6

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Tue May 29, 2007 10:21 pm

weeder;577174 wrote: After a lifetime of believing in God. I gave up the belief today. Oh, I always skirted the issue, as I couldnt make the jump from agnostic to atheist. I didnt want to be a heathen. Church never held any appeal for me. If anything, Ive avoided church goers, as Ive always found them to be mind controlled, and restricted in their awareness of spiritual things. I have always been engaged in a spiritual quest for understanding, and Ive sifted through doctrines and philosophys.. taking what Ive wanted, and discarding the rest. Through it all, Ive never been able to let go of " Him" the concept of a supreme being, and the childish notion that "he" was everywhere. Sort of watching over things, making decisions, doling out punishments and rewards. Ive never stopped saying " Thank you God" Ive always avoided taking " his" name in vain. Well, I finally understand... there isnt any him.

Ive lived and observed the unworthy gain wealth and power. Ive had enough of hearing that good people are stricken with terminal illnesses. Im weary of watching hard working, honest folk be beaten into the ground... struggling to survive, There is no rhyme or reason to any of it. Life is a virtual mine field. Peppered with hardship, tradgedy, cruelty, and pain. I no longer believe that good things come to those who pray or who are kind. Every decision is up to us. The choices we make will dictate the lives we lead. Consequences are the result of only our own actions. Failure to be able to maintain a sound mind, in the face of adversity, results in a life void of comfort.

Now, dont get me wrong. Im not down on life. I still view it as a miracle. I still see it as a tremendous gift, and an opportunity for adventure, and joy.

Im simply admitting that I finally understand that I am at the helm of my own life alone. Whatever goes wrong, there isnt any master to blame, and there isnt any point in questioning why. Finally, I know that whatever my hearts desire is, Id better try to find it. I can strive to be the best person I can, and to live according to the values that are part of my heart and my concience... but those things will not keep me exempt from misfortune, failure, or heartache. This is a biggie for me. That final leap into the fire. Going on, for the rest of my life, really alone. Letting go of that last elusive hand, that hovered somewhere out of my realm of reality. Im not afraid. The scariest part of my realization is that I cannott go back. Its too late, now that I know.

You might have given up on God...........I really doubt you gave up on the spiritual part of YOU. God has nothing to do with how you feel about your soul...your spirit..your true nature..............this is all about how you feel about YOU.. Never give up on yourself.

Carl44 · Post by **Carl44** » Tue May 29, 2007 10:49 pm

nvalleyvee;624692 wrote: You might have given up on God...........I really doubt you gave up on the spiritual part of YOU. God has nothing to do with how you feel about your soul...your spirit..your true nature..............this is all about how you feel about YOU.. Never give up on yourself.

great post thats how i feel :-6

thank god :-3 :-3

Singh-Song · Post by **Singh-Song** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:55 am

Just because God hasn't appeared before you in a puff of light with the angels singing in the chorus, doesn't mean he doesn't exist. If you went to church, you believed in a heaven or hell- What's the Christian purpose of this Earth in the first place? The only concievable Christian purpose of this universe we inhabit is as a test. And the reason, you quoted for giving up? You have to compare the world to a testroom, where everybody gets a different paper by draw of the hat. Some of the other kids in the classroom might have been cheating; you think the teacher at the front of class didn't see? Some of the others might have got the hardest tests imaginable; you think the marking scheme won't be altered to accomodate? Now, you might look around and think that the teacher just sits watching while the classroom is in chaos, that there might as well be none at all- but when the end of year comes, when it's time to collect your diploma, your respect towards the teacher's going to count for or against you regardless...

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:44 pm

We were created for God's pleasure. We are here to live and to live life abundantly.

Shalom

Ted:-6

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:52 pm

Ted;652673 wrote: We were created for God's pleasure. We are here to live and to live life abundantly.

Shalom

Ted:-6You're a good man Ted. :-6

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:53 pm

Singh-Song;652236 wrote: Just because God hasn't appeared before you in a puff of light with the angels singing in the chorus, doesn't mean he doesn't exist. If you went to church, you believed in a heaven or hell- What's the Christian purpose of this Earth in the first place? The only concievable Christian purpose of this universe we inhabit is as a test. And the reason, you quoted for giving up? You have to compare the world to a testroom, where everybody gets a different paper by draw of the hat. Some of the other kids in the classroom might have been cheating; you think the teacher at the front of class didn't see? Some of the others might have got the hardest tests imaginable; you think the marking scheme won't be altered to accomodate? Now, you might look around and think that the teacher just sits watching while the classroom is in chaos, that there might as well be none at all- but when the end of year comes, when it's time to collect your diploma, your respect towards the teacher's going to count for or against you regardless...
Wow. That's pretty impressive that you've sifted out all purposes and determined them to be inconcievable, not only for yourself but for everyone.

Singh-Song · Post by **Singh-Song** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:56 am

:-2 Er... Was that sarcastic?

Mia · Post by **Mia** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:29 am

They do say never argue polotics or religion.I admire weeders and several other posts on here. I have no religion or belief myself.One thing I do have is a concience and I know what is right and what is wrong.I choose to live my life the right way,because that is what I wan't, and not because I will burn in Hell if I do not.

Most humans seem to think there is a reason for everything.I think not.We have no reason for our existance.We are no more important than anything that lives and grows on this planet.We have a life cycle the same as everything else.We have a higher intelligence,and that is all that separates us.

I sometimes wish I could believe in the happy ever after,but when I die I will not be aware of anything, so it does not matter.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:14 pm

I wish all the posts about religion wouldn't dissove into an atheist-christian debate. thus leaving out those of us of other faiths. It's not like christianity has a monopoly. Or...does it?

Mia · Post by **Mia** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:47 pm

It does not matter about what faith you are Red.It is more about wether or not there is a life after death,and a higher being wether we call him God, Allah,Jahova or whatever. As I said in my last post,people should never argue about this topic,we should all respect each others opinion,even though we will never agree.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:51 pm

Mia;653410 wrote: It does not matter about what faith you are Red.It is more about wether or not there is a life after death,and a higher being wether we call him God, Allah,Jahova or whatever. As I said in my last post,people should never argue about this topic,we should all respect each others opinion,even though we will never agree.

Oh, I'm not wanting to argue with anybody at all. It's just that I have not seen hardly any pagan discussions or very many that didn't become arguments about "you're gonna get it on Judgement Day/the Lord is My Saviour" stuff. I mean no disrespect by that just saying I tend to bail out of these talks because that stuff doesn't apply to me or my way of thinking. I'm probably not being very clear. I feel God should be private and formfitting to oneself rather than one cookie cutter image so anyone's personal belief doesn't bother me. I just wish there were more variety in these religious discussions.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:35 pm

I gave up God today

Then what is that soft little voice in the depths of your mind that steers your ship when you cant anymore sweet ?

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:11 am

" God" has spoken to me twice. Clear as a bell. These are two experiences that I will never, ever forget. I know the moment that I was healed of malignant melanoma, two years ago. When I initiate " spiritual" topics of any kind, I do not do so lightly. I am not a religious zealot. I have no vested interest in what anyone believes, or does not believe. I have never attempted to pursuade anyone to convert to my way of thinking, on any subject. ( With the exception of my children. It was my responsibility to influence their values... during the formative years. My life has been an incredible journey. I have traveled the road of living with a spiritual awareness that has been with me always. I sometimes wonder if all people have this awareness. The road has been hard. ( Certainly not as hard for me, as for others) I am aware of this. There have been heartbreaking circumstances to endure, and to recover from, all along the way. At this age, facing the prospect of old age, alone..... My quest for spiritual understanding seems to be escalating. Sometimes that frightens me. Sometimes I doubt every single belief I have ever held. Sometimes, when I feel lonely, I sort of throw the way I feel out there. I think it is looking for the connection of a human link. For so often, it is the meeting of hearts and minds of other humans that provides us with comfort, and validates who we are.

SlipStream · Post by **SlipStream** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:17 am

goodness me, we've only got us to put this world right.

Singh-Song · Post by **Singh-Song** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:53 am

Mia? A conscience isn't just a function of higher intelligence- in fact logical higher intelligence would tell a person to act in pure self-interest, without any thought for the consequences or emotions laid onto others. It isn't instinctual either- instinct is purely about the need to survive. If there are other lions who need to eat more, eat all you can anyway.If others want to share the most immense territory, force them out anyway... The whole concept of 'right' and 'wrong' is spiritual, theological in nature. In that way, any person in our society has to believe in foundless ideological concepts, whether a member of a religion or an atheist. Anyone who doesn't is not only soulless, but insane...

p.s. RedGlitter, I'm not Christian or Atheist, I'm Sikh. It isn't a two-party debate...

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:32 am

Singh-Song;653853 wrote: Mia? A conscience isn't just a function of higher intelligence- in fact logical higher intelligence would tell a person to act in pure self-interest, without any thought for the consequences or emotions laid onto others. It isn't instinctual either- instinct is purely about the need to survive. If there are other lions who need to eat more, eat all you can anyway.If others want to share the most immense territory, force them out anyway... The whole concept of 'right' and 'wrong' is spiritual, theological in nature. In that way, any person in our society has to believe in foundless ideological concepts, whether a member of a religion or an atheist. Anyone who doesn't is not only soulless, but insane...

p.s. RedGlitter, I'm not Christian or Atheist, I'm Sikh. It isn't a two-party debate...

Glad to hear that, Singh. Variety is nice. But I profoundly disagree with the parts I have bolded. I don't buy that right and wrong are theological for everyone at all. I don't buy that part about being soulless and insane. Or the part about atheists. Where are you getting these concepts?

Singh-Song · Post by **Singh-Song** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:29 am

The world we live in, RedGlitter. Higher intelligence, as opposed to wisdom, tells a person that if they want to better themself in this world- Look around you. Only in the most isolated cases do selfless deeds go unpunished, selfish deeds go unrewarded only when combined with stupidity. If ruled purely by intelligence, why would we want a higher, spiritual ideal to aspire to, when for the vast majority the conscience is the only thing that holds us back from acheiving our full economic and situational potential? Because of the belief in things more important than ourselves- Ideologies, whether the belief in a loving, caring God or in the country's Constitution, despite the fact that both require a leap of faith, neither correlate perfectly with what every individual experiences in the real world. Because without them, if pure intelligence were to rule this capitalist world, all we would have would be chaos. Without them, society would be unsustainable, no-one would care about the lives of future generations if they weren't around to experience it. If pure intelligence rules the mind of a person, without any regard for ethics- for example, the right to life of others- then all you're going to get is a genius psychopath...

telaquapacky · Post by **telaquapacky** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:35 am

spot;577178 wrote: What The Book of Job concludes is that God's reasons are unfathomable and, for my part, while that may be true or not true it's not good enough. The moment you accept any notion of God as the "supreme being" who's "everywhere", completely powerful and interested in creation, then I think you've defined an evil monster. Islam tries to get round that by saying he's not personally interested in people. Islam and Christianity both try to get round it by offering Heaven as a prize worth any suffering to gain admission. Judaism has an interesting alternative (not all Judaism, but a significant undercurrent opinion) that the reason God's not evil is that he's powerless and broken, that the only way to improve the world is by selflessly picking up what few pieces you come across and getting them to work again. That makes far more sense to me.One Christian theory is the sovereignty of God (God is God, and He can do whatever He wants to, so there!). I’m not saying that God is not entitled to His sovereignty, but to stop there is theologically lazy. I don’t think the Book of Job concludes that, but I think that a narrow reading of Job might conclude that.

That heaven is a prize worth any suffering is another Christian theory that is even lazier, because you have Christians speaking out of one side of their mouths saying “It’s by grace, not by works; not something earned, but a free gift, and yet they are always devising ways of working or suffering to earn it.

The subject of theodicy (why bad things happen to good people, why God made a perfect world but look how it sucks now) is indeed complex. Job contains a lot more potential for a cogent, spiritual answer than most people read into it. But I don’t look to the last chapter for the answer. I think the answer is in the first chapter. In Job, chapter one, Satan comes in before God, and the two of them make sort of a wager:

"See my servant, Job? He's my guy. Whaddaya think of that?"

Satan says, "Yeah, right. He's only good because you blessed him. Take away his wealth, and he'll curse you."

God says, "Oh yeah? You're on! Take his wealth, but don't touch his body. We'll see if he switches loyalty from me to you."

Satan then takes everything that Job owns (and kills his children as well- Satan always takes things a bit too far).

Job grieved, yes. But he said "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised, " and the text says, "In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing."

Next, God is gloating at Satan, and says, "See? He's still on my side even though you took his wealth. Whaddaya think of that?"

Satan says, "Yeah, right. Let me ruin his health, and this time he'll curse you to your face and I'll win him over."

God says, "You're on."

The rest of the book deals with the more difficult time Job has in holding onto his faith (staying on God’s side) while dealing with the added stress of illness- and on top of that, three friends who have faulty (then popular) concepts of God and religion try to “help him, and only make matters worse.

In Job’s struggles, he questions God, and asks the very human question, “Why? But along the way he makes some of the most eloquent statements about faith, my favorite being Job 13:15- “Though He slay me, still will I trust Him. What is Job doing? He’s glorifying God by maintaining his faith despite unfair suffering. The point of Job is, that by maintaining his faith, Job glorified God while he was rich and healthy, and by maintaining his faith Job glorified God while he was sick and poor. Whether it was fair or unfair didn’t matter.

In the end, God won the wager He had made with Satan in the beginning, that Job would glorify Him. Another example of this “the point is not my salvation or my comfort, but glorifying God attitude is Jesus, after the resurrection, on the beach with Peter, reconciling with Peter:

John 21:18 I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go."

John 21:19 Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, "Follow me!"

I think the point of Job and the point of Peter’s life is that death or sickness or losing everything is not the worst thing that can happen to a believer. The worst thing that can happen to a believer is that they fail to fulfill the death or life by which they can glorify God before the world, against the taunts of God’s enemies. The worst thing that can happen to a believer is that they can lose their faith.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 7:01 pm

Job is an interesting story but it presents a very ancient concept of God which is no longer valid.

Shalom

Ted:-6

stevie1 · Post by **stevie1** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:45 am

weeder;577777 wrote: You said it all beautifully, Paul.

hallaluya some sence at last :-6

if there's any problems in the world usually there's religon there somewhere lerking

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:43 pm

JAB:-6

What changed?

History, culture, our fund of knowledge, our language, our conceptualization abilities, our understanding of the nature of sacred writings, our understanding of the nature of the Divine, and the era as well as other factors changed.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:49 pm

stevie1:-6

I think you are quite correct in that, but from a different viewpoint. Religion has been around since man gained a human conscience and coincidentally so have wars. This in no way equates war with religion. For the most part religion happens to be there or there are those who are misusing the faith they grew up with. All of the world's great faiths began out of a realization of the reality of the Divine and the human need for justice (distributive) and kindness.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:42 pm

JAB:-6

No I don't think God would have adjusted. She/He would have had to make man into a God so that he could understand. The ancients thought that epilepsy was caused by demon possession. We know better now. They thought that most illness was caused by a sin of some kind. Such is simply not the case. They are caused by viruses or bacteria. These things were unknown back then. Lightning was a spear from God back then. They had no knowledge of electricity of any kind.

The history of the word "Satan" has an interesting history as well. That word and its meaning have evolved over the centuries. It was used to explain that which was not understood then and in many ways is still not understood today.

Is God playing tricks? Not at all. Life has to and has and will continue to evolve and so will our understanding of things. We have come a long way in the last 6500 years.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:17 pm

JAB:-6

As a piece of literature Job is a classic and that is what it is.

It was a work designed to explain the nature evil and its causes. In this it is a total failure. Man still has yet to explain why s/he persists in both self-preservation activity and at the same time in destructive behaviour.

Job did not exist nor did the others in the poem. It is a literary work designed to explain a theological point.

Here we have a good example of the variety in the concepts of Satan. In this poem he is a messenger sent by God to test out the faith of Job. He is part of the council of the heavenly beings one of whose jobs is to check on the faith of individuals.

Second part. What part of the concept of God don't I buy. If God is God and all seeing and all knowing etc. than he has no need to test anyone. He knows the strength or lack thereof of their faith. Secondly I do not believe that God tests or tries people in that manner. If we see in Jesus the full expression of the Father than we do not see this tester.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:05 pm

JAB:-6

I do not believe that Job existed. This poem is very similar to a Sumerian poem on the same theme. In the Sumerian poem the main character is never named. pg 239 "The One Volume Commentary"' Hugh Anderson.

Shalom

Ted.:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:54 pm

magenta:-6

Nothing more then another red herring. I never said the Sumerians did anything for us.

How should I know. I have seen neither of the stories. I was not there. But I'm sure I could tell a few good ones as well. We were not discussing your stories. Many stories have similarities. Bank holdups usually follow the same few patterns. Two people could write two stories and they would be similar.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:15 pm

JAB:-6

I'm not sure what you mean by making the Bible incorrect. It is a term that I don't use about the Bible because as a metaphorical writing things can be interpreted in more than one way. Does that mean one is "correct" and the others are incorrect? By what criteria does one make such a decision? There are some 22 000 Christian denominations around the world. Does that mean that all but one are incorrect. Who is to determine correctness?

There are some 5 different ways of interpreting the crucifixion story. How does one decide which one is correct and the others are not?

This says nothing about the other sacred writings in the world. Are they incorrect" Tell that to a Muslim who knows he is correct.

Shalom

Ted:-6