Hindu symbolism or not

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:50 pm

laneybug;704862 wrote: I like a good debate, that's all. I like open conversation. So what if I challenge? That's how people grow, learn, and exchange new ideas. As if you don't challenge others.

Anyway, the whole thing is pointless. There is too much sensitivity and "you're hurting my feelings" by being rude bullsh*t.

Which brings us full circle to this...

valerie, I'm wondering why you felt the need to state your offense in the first place. What was the point? To simply state your disgust for the resemblance of the Nazi swastika? Well, you've done that. Is this conversation closed? Or do we all need to continue hashing it out?

And that is what I balked at.

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:56 pm

RedGlitter;704868 wrote:

And that is what I balked at.

It was a genuine question. It didn't appear to me that any other meanings for the swastika symbol was going to be considered or discussed, so what was the point? You may have read in sarcastic undertones, but they weren't there intentionally. I was simply asking a question. Nothing more or less.

I simply didn't see the point in saying, "spot has a naughty signature." I was simply wondering why that needed attention being brought to. We could all see his sig. We all have our feelings about it. What's the point of saying, "I don't like it and I'm not willing to discuss any other meanings of it other than what I feel about it." If that's the catapult to a bigger conversation, than fine. Apparently, it wasn't. Like I said, it was my misunderstanding.

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:15 pm

[QUOTE=Patsy Warnick;704856 I don't need a history lesson.

Patsy

Just out of curiosity.... why don't you care to know other aspects of the symbol?

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:21 pm

Laney

No, being young doesn't make you or anyone else a moron - I didn't say that at all.

You most certainly called Red the KKK - I made reference to that and you replied you were proud of your position.

So your justifing the name calling.?

you still haven't answered my question - why is it ok for you to call me ignorant?

Peanut gallery? you replied & made reference to Red - I'm not Red.

As far as knowing other symbols - I didn't see this thread going in that direction.

Go ahead and start your own thread

Patsy

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:42 pm

Patsy Warnick;704876 wrote: Laney

No, being young doesn't make you or anyone else a moron - I didn't say that at all.

I jumped the gun. I couldn't think of any other reason for you to ask my age.

You most certainly called Red the KKK - I made reference to that and you replied you were proud of your position.

Go back and read the posts. I never made mention of the KKK. That was someone else. I assumed, on that thread, that you must have been referring to my white supremacist comment. So read my posts.

So your justifing the name calling.?

Sure. When I think it's warranted, I do it. I'm not going to pussyfoot around simply because someone might consider me rude or I might hurt someone's feelings. If I think someone is being ignorant enough to call them a name, than I'm obviously not going to give much of a crap to how they "feel" about it.

you still haven't answered my question - why is it ok for you to call me ignorant?

"Ok" and "not ok" are both relative concepts. It may not be ok to you, but it's ok to me, if I feel the situation warrants it. At times I think some people's opinions are ignorant. So I say it. Some of my opinions are ignorant to other people and they say it. Big deal. I don't get all choked up about it.

Peanut gallery? you replied & made reference to Red - I'm not Red.

True. You're not Red. Which means I didn't say it to you.

As far as knowing other symbols - I didn't see this thread going in that direction.

I didn't say knowing other symbols. I said knowing about the swastika symbol. And obviously the thread didn't go in that direction.

Go ahead and start your own thread

Umm.... thanks for the permission?

Look. I'm not into discussing who's being rude and who's offended who. I really couldn't care less. I'm not mushy-gushy and I'm not going to talk about feelings. I don't really care if I've offended anybody's gentle sensibilities. There is far too much political correctness going on in this world and the heart of the matter never gets reached. We're all trying to walk on eggshells around each other so we don't hurt each other's f*cking feelings. Say what you need to say and get on with it for god's sake!! If you want a rational, reasonable and intelligent conversation, then I'm there. But this is honestly a bunch of playground bullsh*t. Paint me as the bad guy. Sure. Not the first time and it really doesn't bother me.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:49 pm

Laney

You know something - we're not going to get along

Name calling is warranted - its never warranted - never

I don't think FORUM GARDENS WILL ARGUE WITH MY POSITION !!!!!!!

Patsy

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:54 pm

Patsy Warnick;704880 wrote: Laney

You know something - we're not going to get along

Name calling is warranted - its never warranted - never

I don't thing FORUM GARDENS WILL ARGUE WITH MY POSITION !!!!!!!

Patsy

As for not getting along, nope, never suspected we would. I don't imagine it's a loss for either one of us.

You live in a black and white world with absolutes. I do not. And I am certainly not the only one in FG who has name called, so I'm not too concerned.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:05 pm

Laneb

You have alot to learn

There are several strong personalities here at FG - good luck

Write me when your divorced - I'll explain WHY..

Good luck & Keep justifing - go girl

Patsy

Post by **spot** » Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:31 pm

Someone brought up pre-Columbian Native American representations and I've found a webpage showing a stone carving, 1800 years old or more, representing two snakes lying across each other.

Regarding the earlier question in the thread - was the selection by the German Nazi Party of the swastika influenced by Native American usage - I'd say no. The modern Third-Reich-style swastika was in use in Germany from around 1850 onward for all sorts of things, long before any Fascists adopted it, but I still feel it was a reflection of Nordic and Baltic history rather than from any other part of the world. Finding reasonable evidence for that would probably take me a while which is why I've not gone looking so far, maybe someone can start me off if they want me to come back with confirmation.

Anyway, I have two questions once you've all looked at the link.

One: Should the original be exhibited in a museum?

Two: Should reproductions of this astonishing and unique piece of stone carving be offered for sale to the public, or would that offend some people too much to be socially acceptable?

Post by **spot** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:17 am

Clancy;704893 wrote: So far I've refrained from throwing hurlers, but if this next comment doesn't earn an infraction, I'll be surprised, but show a bit of gumption, as it's rare to see a decent hurler in this place of late.On the contrary, Clancy, you raised a smile. I noticed the "Guests: 10" against the thread earlier and now we have your third post here since February. Who is it that draws your attention to provocative call-out threads, eh? I'm sure neither you nor val has the driving fanatical obsession needed to keep threads like this popping into existence. Her "Signed" paraphrase was from September 2006, for goodness' sake. I had to search on it to find out which of us wrote the words in the first place.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:27 am

One: Should the original be exhibited in a museum?

Two: Should reproductions of this astonishing and unique piece of stone carving be offered for sale to the public, or would that offend some people too much to be socially acceptable?

Yes, the original should be displayed in a museum as museums seek to educate and show us things we might otherwise forget or not know about. Similar to how I said concentration camps should not be razed because people need to see them.

Should the snake swastika replica be for sale to the public? That's difficult. And a good point. I think if anyone were to buy one though, they had rightfully be willing to do a lot of explaining.

This brings to mind other things. Is it racially hateful or unPC to own an Aunt Jemima cookie jar? I believe that figure is known as "Mammy." How about Little Black Sambo? How about any black figure in whiteface? If I wear a rainbow, am I gay? Rebel flags? I could go on but those are prime examples.

So in answer to your second question and how it also relates to the Indian bedspread, I can't offer a concrete answer. I just don't know and can't say firmly no. It's something to be thought about.

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:52 am

laneybug;704871 wrote: It was a genuine question. It didn't appear to me that any other meanings for the swastika symbol was going to be considered or discussed, so what was the point? You may have read in sarcastic undertones, but they weren't there intentionally. I was simply asking a question. Nothing more or less.

I simply didn't see the point in saying, "spot has a naughty signature." I was simply wondering why that needed attention being brought to. We could all see his sig. We all have our feelings about it. What's the point of saying, "I don't like it and I'm not willing to discuss any other meanings of it other than what I feel about it." If that's the catapult to a bigger conversation, than fine. Apparently, it wasn't. Like I said, it was my misunderstanding.

You must not be reading my posts, because I fail to see how you could

get that I'm not willing to discuss any other meanings of it. Remember me

mentioning guppy's tic-tac-toe view? That's just for starters.

Go back and look at YZGI's first post. He saw red squiggly lines and dots.

Yet he understood how someone could see otherwise. My OP said

nothing about why I might find it "offensive" but YZGI referenced Nazi

symbolism.

To show you my character, here is a post I made quite some time ago:

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... ostcount=7

Someone had posted something I didn't find funny, and graciously offered

to remove it.

I don't need to be "snowed under" with excess verbiage and multiple

links. I'm insulted that anybody really thought I wouldn't have done at

least SOME investigating before I posted. Wikipedia was one of the

first places I looked.

If I remember correctly, the sig pic had a line next to it, something

like "Rehabilitate Hindu symbolism" (please do correct me if that's

wrong!) Did any of you ask yourselves WHY Hindu symbolism has to

be "rehabilitated"? Gee, could it possibly be because millions the

world over now see it as something else?

Believe it or not, I still think of the people who come here and have

a look around before signing up. I wonder if they see a sig like that

and decide not to join. I wonder if there are any who get that sick

feeling in the pit of their stomach when they see it. People who

aren't bold enough to say something about it. Well, now it's down

in black and white for them that somebody DID say something about it.

And I hope that tells them that they aren't alone.

I think about my little 105 year old Jewish grandmother. She was so

afraid she sent my mom to Catholic school, hoping nobody would find

out they were Jewish.

I think about Elie Wiesel. What it would mean for him to see that.

It's a hell of a lot more than simply "spot has a naughty signature".

A hell of a lot more.

minks · Post by **minks** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:56 am

Well all I can say is I hope you lot learned something here, this symbol has more than one meaning or should I say conjures up more than one meaning.

Let's respect each others interpretation of it and not attack each other over it.

Val I hope maybe with some of the good insight on this topic you can view the symbol with a little less pain.

Post by **spot** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:54 am

valerie;704976 wrote: I think about my little 105 year old Jewish grandmother. She was so afraid she sent my mom to Catholic school, hoping nobody would find out they were Jewish.You've reached a half-way point, val. You've reached the point of portraying me personally in Stormtrooper uniform with Bavarian duelling scar, whip and Alsatian, terrifying your ancestors into renouncing their culture, but you haven't yet reached the stage of answering any queries put to you.

Perhaps you could begin with http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... stcount=59

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:13 am

spot;704897 wrote: On the contrary, Clancy, you raised a smile. I noticed the "Guests: 10" against the thread earlier and now we have your third post here since February. Who is it that draws your attention to provocative call-out threads, eh? I'm sure neither you nor val has the driving fanatical obsession needed to keep threads like this popping into existence. Her "Signed" paraphrase was from September 2006, for goodness' sake. I had to search on it to find out which of us wrote the words in the first place.

Dear, dear spot. :rolleyes: Now you're spending your time doing post counts

how delightful.

You're missing posts, also. I explained why I used that sig, and that it

would be obscure to a lot here... you had to search, did you? Another

delightful note. My almost 55 year old menopausal brain has greater

recall than his spottiness!! Do tell who used those words. I was actually

incorrect in using them solely for myself, since they were meant for so

many others... Right, dear spot?

I have another question for any of you... why did spot put that in his

sig? Why not start a thread, put it in and ask for comment? I have an

idea... he WANTED someone to ask him about it. You might say I took

the bait except that my eyes were wide open, I knew what I was doing.

And I expect he's gleeful as all get out about the course this has taken,

sitting at his computer in total bliss.

I do have to do one correction, I stated earlier that I would have said

something if anyone else had that in their sig... well I realized there

is one person here that I wouldn't have said anything to. That person

is Chonsigirl. What's that you say? (Cups hand behind ear) Chons would

never do such a thing? Think on that one a minute.

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:26 am

spot;705052 wrote: You've reached a half-way point, val. You've reached the point of portraying me personally in Stormtrooper uniform with Bavarian duelling scar, whip and Alsatian, terrifying your ancestors into renouncing their culture, but you haven't yet reached the stage of answering any queries put to you.

Perhaps you could begin with http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... stcount=59

Oh come ON spot. That's just a tiny bit :rolleyes: over the top.

Your query said "you all" so you could have been talking about many

people reading here, and I don't need a command to answer anything

out of you. Keep on wishing and hoping.

And shall we have a little talk about Alsatians? Didn't I say in an

earlier post that it was obvious I don't hate all things Germanic?

Having just recently reached six months after losing the most

beautiful, loving "Alsatian" EVER, I resent your little dig. Resent it,

but that's about it, because it's no less than what I would expect

from such as yourself.

koan · Post by **koan** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:15 pm

not to stir the waters but I was far more offended by his 'elect Giuliani' sig. I'm just glad that is gone now.

minks · Post by **minks** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:01 pm

Clancy;705236 wrote: .

You lot ? Learned something? From who, minx? are Forum Garden members so bereft of an education, or life experiences, they'd fall over trying to place one foot in front of the other without, Spot?

I don't normally quote myself, but I doubt many millions of people of a certain age, would argue with it, or, lie and say they see nothing else in it.

My apologies to, all of Britain's allied baby boomers....obviously, by me being a middle aged Scots male, I'm more familiar with Europe, so obviously I stick to what I know

.

..

...

A side issue..

Maybe you're right, minx, Perhaps Forum Garden can be a safer place to be if you fall into line. Maybe I should have followed, Spot and joined in with him putting the mockers on, Peg for having the gall to submit posts to the Amber Alert threads.a few days ago, thereby wasting her online time

Perhaps Forum Garden needs people like, Spot to infer to Carla that she doesn't know what she's talking about, despite her giving a lifetimes service to health care in her own country. .....maybe this is the new order. Pass judgement on people without ever...or, wanting, to step into that persons country, or, their vocation. Or, is it probable that, Spot's so familiar with bashing out is own brand of Anti-Americanism everyone seems to allow it to go unchecked, and unanswered, for fear of his sardonic wit?

He's so fond of links, posts, counts, et'al Here's one, but I doubt he'll be up for it. . I'll give a crisp tenner £10 for every post where, Spot appears to be praising, or acknowledging the U.S. or, without disparaging undertone........and I'll take 10pence for every post where he does the opposite. Who'd go home the richer?

Or, when all else fails, I read the old, tired, chestnut, of, "Clancy! did you write this post yourself" How long have you known me (online) minx? five....six years? probably about the same amount of time as, Peg, or, Pat (KarazeePapa) booradley, & Saffy?? Have you ever seen me stuck for an answer? or, witnessed me take up for a buddy who I thought hadn't got it right? Maybe if I'd posted..... "Spot ! did, koan prompt you to write this" I could have saved time, and joined in the communal bath, set my wits on dim, and sailed through on waves of nondescript idle gormless mediocrity..... it definitely would have been easier, boring, and banal, but easier....definitely.

Maybe if I'd posted more along the lines of, ....."I bought a pizza instead of cooking a Sunday roast. Thank God I live in such a tolerant society"...or,. "Hey everyone. This morning I had to decide whether to go to a car boot sale or not to go, I decided not to go, now I feel proud to live in a society where I am allowed to make such decisions". I'm not putting those types of posts, or, posters down....far from it, but, I try hard not to do it...but, Spot will, he's already done it in this thread.

Well, today, I made the decision to post in here, and on this thread.....the mild put down you read, is in response to, Spot's intermittent baiting I receive in another two rant forums he frequents......forums which I don't even belong to, so occasionally I launch one over his bow, and lets be honest here, you know I can do much more, but one from me usually shuts him up for a few hours. The other reason, (and the main reason) I posted on this thread, I knew right off the mark that someone would look at what, Spot posted, and rail against it, or, more to the point, see what millions of others around my neck of woods see within it.

Maybe, Spot should put his claim to the test. Let him walk around Bristol and show the symbol to people of forty and over, and ask them what they see in it....maybe he's already got a link for that, who knows....

Maybe when all the millions of boomers are gone, what's seen in that symbol "might" be viewed as it was first intended, and not with visions of one of the biggest killing machines, not to mention one of history's most notorious murdering bastards ever known......for that, there is no online link,

........so in the words of our immortal bard.....he's f*cked for starters

Clancy.

x

no no no clancy I didn 't say learned from Spot, just from the thread over all, there were some good bits of information that showed the swastika is not just a symbol of evil.

Sorry you read my post wrong.

minks · Post by **minks** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:16 pm

minks;705242 wrote: no no no clancy I didn 't say learned from Spot, just from the thread over all, there were some good bits of information that showed the swastika is not just a symbol of evil.

Sorry you read my post wrong.

Upon reading Clancy's post a second time I want to say sorry to you Val that your thread has been railroaded again by people bringing up past so called injustices and opinions on how this forum "should read"

My post was not directed at anyone in a negative way and Val, I merely wanted to say I hope some more information on this symbol offers you a chance to see it in a different view.

Truly your decision.

M

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:34 pm

minks;705250 wrote: Upon reading Clancy's post a second time I want to say sorry to you Val that your thread has been railroaded again by people bringing up past so called injustices and opinions on how this forum "should read"

My post was not directed at anyone in a negative way and Val, I merely wanted to say I hope some more information on this symbol offers you a chance to see it in a different view.

Truly your decision.

M

I think I understand what you are trying to get at, but maybe *I*

need to explain myself better. I'll give 'er a go...

I HAD information on this symbol already. I did additional (albeit small)

research on it when I saw it again. To anyone out there who sees

something else in it I say great for you. (Not being sarcastic I mean that!)

But, I'm seeing the pig and not the frock!

I don't know how I'd ever

be able to just notice and comment on the frock! It's been too long and

way too firmly ingrained. Maybe it IS a generational thing, I truly don't

know but if it is, then how does one combat THAT?

And for the umpteenth time, I didn't ask for the sig pic to be removed.

I would never do that. But I can't see what is wrong with saying

something about it. Especially in a place like this. Then, the way it works,

I say X about something and somebody else says Y. Okay? I'm not mad,

I'm not upset, I do indeed have an interest in other viewpoints, even

if I don't share them. That's all it is, for me.

minks · Post by **minks** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:38 pm

valerie;705269 wrote: I think I understand what you are trying to get at, but maybe *I*

need to explain myself better. I'll give 'er a go...

I HAD information on this symbol already. I did additional (albeit small)

research on it when I saw it again. To anyone out there who sees

something else in it I say great for you. (Not being sarcastic I mean that!)

But, I'm seeing the pig and not the frock!

I don't know how I'd ever

be able to just notice and comment on the frock! It's been too long and

way too firmly ingrained. Maybe it IS a generational thing, I truly don't

know but if it is, then how does one combat THAT?

And for the umpteenth time, I didn't ask for the sig pic to be removed.

I would never do that. But I can't see what is wrong with saying

something about it. Especially in a place like this. Then, the way it works,

I say X about something and somebody else says Y. Okay? I'm not mad,

I'm not upset, I do indeed have an interest in other viewpoints, even

if I don't share them. That's all it is, for me.

I would suspect you are not alone in your interpretation of the symbol, and no nothiing wrong with saying something about how you felt about it I agree.

911 · Post by **911** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:50 pm

See it in a different view. . . . .

If only.

If people could see all hated symbols in their original context, the Confederate flag would still be waving in the South. That flag did not instigate slavery nor did it waller in the bonds of a race of people. Still, it is outlawed on all state, city and county property or state, city or county sponsored institutions and events.

There is a Confederate flag on private property about forty feet wide that can be seen from a major interstate. The debate actually went to the state legislature to have it removed. They failed as it was on private property.

I was in a Chinese restaurant once and noticed the vent over the doorway had the shadow of a swastika shape on it. I started looking around at the other vents in the restaurant and they all had that same shadow. It was dust. The way the vents were arranged cause the dust to collect on the grill in a swastika form. Did I stop going to that restaurant until they changed their vents? No.

Sometimes we just have to move on and not let other people or accidental symbolism get to you.

Should the Atlanta Braves change the name of their team and stop the tomahawk song and arm motion?

I think it is a shame that one group of people can ruin a symbol or event for the rest of the world. But, that's the way it is. Christmas used to be fun, but now everyone wants to stop Christmas because they are not Christians. Don't say "Merry Christmas" say "Happy Holidays", blah, blah, blah. Should those that don't believe even be granted any holiday sentiment?

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:13 pm

Valerie,

I hear and understand what you're saying and agree with you 100% :-4

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:15 pm

Patsy Warnick;704885 wrote: Laneb

You have alot to learn

Oh absolutely I have a lot to learn. I don't consider that a bad thing. Life is a learning process.

There are several strong personalities here at FG - good luck

I'm not too concerned.

Write me when your divorced - I'll explain WHY..

My fiance is extremely mature and very intelligent. He doesn't stick his tail between his legs and wet himself at the sight of an intellectually aggressive female. He absolutely adores that about me.

But thanks for the offer. It's amusing to me that you'd think you had any clue as to who loves me and what my life is about. That's actually really funny. I needed the laugh.

Mia · Post by **Mia** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:15 pm

valerie;704726 wrote: You can't tell me what I find ugly or offensive, spot. I didn't ignore

anything, I don't care where you hotlinked from, it makes no difference

to me. I believe in my post #6 in this thread I stated "or close to it"

and that should suffice.

Now you're calling me ignorant, SUPER. I've been called worse. Hell,

YOU have called me worse.

It's my feeling that you can't un-ring the bell. And if anyone comes

here in the future, anyone who may be of Jewish descent say, or

who had a great grandmother who died in the ovens, at least they

will know someone stood up and said something. Someone who

obviously has no hatred for all things Germanic. :rolleyes:

I didn't pm you and ask you to take it out, lest I get accused of the

backchat bs again. I wouldn't have done that, in any case. But as

long as I stay well within the TOS, then by God I'm going to comment

on something as I see fit. If I am the only one who feels like I do,

FINE. I'm strong enough to live with that.

Signed:

An intemperate, irrational, flighty woman.

Am I being thick here? what have the Jews got to do with the Hindu religion,they are poles apart.Spot and I have had our spats,but he is an intelligent man,I admire him for that,and I do not believe that he is a racist

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:50 pm

Nobody can tell another person how to view the world and the many symbols in it. I just think it's really too bad to miss out on all the rich history that any given symbol has.

Hitler and the Nazis manipulated the true meaning of the swastika and has given the symbol a terrible representation, a representation that probably sticks out most in our minds than any of the other meanings.

Honestly, this makes me wonder. Do we, as humans, concentrate more on the negative aspects of something and give less attention on the positive? Or is it just central to this topic because of such a controversial image?

To me, thinking a swastika only represents Nazis and has no other meaning, is like thinking every Muslim is a terrorist. Life is not black and white and neither are the symbols in it.

Post by **spot** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:00 am

Go on then Clancy, I asked val for an answer to this and she shied off it - you can have a try as well, since you're still contributing here.

Someone brought up pre-Columbian Native American representations and I've found a webpage showing a stone carving, 1800 years old or more, representing two snakes lying across each other.

I have two questions once you've all looked at the link.

One: Should the original be exhibited in a museum?

Two: Should reproductions of this astonishing and unique piece of stone carving be offered for sale to the public, or would that offend some people too much to be socially acceptable?

pantsonfire321@aol.com · Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:51 am

Clancy;705493 wrote: For many it's "handed down" from our previous generations regarding the swastika emblem, but like I mentioned in a previous post knowing full well that the Hindu symbol, we've been talking (arguing about) is unfortunately only a sharp reminder of a Nazi symbol to many. I can understand you questioning this, but, for many....and I'm talking about millions of older people like myself who knew family, or, elderly co-workers who lived, or, heard perished because of it, how do they divorce one from the other, because they see a symbol that's starkly reminiscent of the other

I agree, that's It's grossly unfair that the Hindu symbol which meant something entirely different, was highjacked by a madman, in the thirties, and forties. The only thing that I can offer, is that possibly many never knew of the Hindu symbol prior to WWII.....would that be a fair comment of the times? Would it be fair to say that in the generations to come no one will view the swastika as anything but, a Hindu symbol? Probably if you were to photocopy the image we've been talking about , and ask people you'd get differing answers....I don't have a clue how it would be viewed in the U.S. But I'd gamble a hundred quid ($200) if you asked the question to anyone over the age of 45 in central Europe, what they see when they look at it, the answer would come back 80/20 it's a Hindu sign but I also see a Nazi swastika

I know if I was to ask many of the middle aged 'great unwashed, barely educated through their own volition in my city, what kind of response I'd get. The first word would rhyme with clucking, and the second word would be , Nazi . The vast majority of our middle aged educated would say they know it's Hindu, but also see a Nazi swastika, so that ties in with the, "negative aspects of something" you mentioned is it negative or, historically handed down through family, doc,film, (movies) whatever?

It could be largely historical because we know from our history the loss of life caused by World War II was over 70 million people, and to many it's a historically disliked/hated emblem, and if one solitary emblem denotes that period, when the world was at war with Nazi Germany it's a swastika....so that might tie in with your, "controversial image" question

"Life is not black and white" Can't we get you on Mastermind, making statements about the 'bleedin' obvious?? (I'm joking)

A hypothetical: If you can think of yourself, say, twenty five to thirty years from now......you're going to be asked by younger people what was it like when madmen flew planes into the Twin Towers .....they'll have photo footage of the time, but you're going to be asked what the mood of your town was like when it happened, how did you hear about it, who were you with.....what was your reaction to it......where were you.....they'll ask about what was it like hearing there was anthrax being posted through the mail, did you feel safe......what's your one memory that sets it all off, was it the falling man....the fire engines, the Towers collapsing....how did you feel towards the people , or race who did this ....etc,

Why I asked that was, over thirty years ago I started asking questions. My Aunt who was one of only two who'd talk about life during war time. She was a military woman stationed in London... and lived through the blitz her brother was fighting in Europe. Her dad, my grandfather had his own cooperage (barrel & cask maker) who's skills and trade were needed for the war effort, yet, volunteered to drive a mortuary wagon three nights a week. But my interest lay in what , my aunt Madge was doing in Whitehall in the plotting and map rooms . I was fascinated to hear her recount some of it. In the same building, Winston Churchill sat in the war room, trying to out wit and bluff , and second guess the German high command.....

Countless people like me, (in my age group) asked and were told by someone first hand....so, in our case, the symbolism leans toward inherited. Countless thousands of others were much less fortunate, and their related stories from family can run from, bleak to horrific. The same will be true for countless civilians in Iraq who detest, and hate the sight of our Union Jack, & your Stars & Stripes, because we're occupying their country and it's a bloody mess, with thousands of civilian dead, so our symbols of freedom blah, blah, will disgust not only the current, but the next generation coming up....and neither of us have a lookalike Hindu symbolism that bears any resemblance to our flags.

So as our Robert Burns would say....'if it wasn't for the fact that most Muslim people around the world are moderate. we'd be f*cked"

.....and hopfully that should tie in nicely with your line........."is like thinking every Muslim is a terrorist".

Clancy, hi hun:yh_battin:yh_wink

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:22 am

spot;705494 wrote: Go on then Clancy, I asked val for an answer to this and she shied off it - you can have a try as well, since you're still contributing here.

Someone brought up pre-Columbian Native American representations and I've found a webpage showing a stone carving, 1800 years old or more, representing two snakes lying across each other.

I have two questions once you've all looked at the link.

One: Should the original be exhibited in a museum?

Two: Should reproductions of this astonishing and unique piece of stone carving be offered for sale to the public, or would that offend some people too much to be socially acceptable?

The original should be returned and exhibited in a museum. I would be interested to know how that gallery obtained it.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:14 am

I think spock should be thrown into a pen of ravenous wild boars.

Not because of his symbolism though, just to blow his mind.

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:16 am

spot;705494 wrote: Go on then Clancy, I asked val for an answer to this and she shied off it - you can have a try as well, since you're still contributing here.

Someone brought up pre-Columbian Native American representations and I've found a webpage showing a stone carving, 1800 years old or more, representing two snakes lying across each other.

I have two questions once you've all looked at the link.

One: Should the original be exhibited in a museum?

Two: Should reproductions of this astonishing and unique piece of stone carving be offered for sale to the public, or would that offend some people too much to be socially acceptable?

I didn't shy off anything. I did answer your "query" about the mosaic

tile floor, and choose not keep on with with endless examples. You're

not getting my point, as much as I've tried to explain it. And YOU

haven't answered "queries" of mine, either, but do I keep hammering

away at them in additional posts? Nope, I just let it go.

Anyway, I thought you were the one who was going to stay away

from this thread? Sound familiar? So you don't have to go back and

search, here's a link: (You do sooooo LOVE links!)

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... stcount=23

Post by **spot** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:21 am

valerie;705554 wrote: And YOU haven't answered "queries" of mine, either, but do I keep hammering away at them in additional posts? Nope, I just let it go.Name one, droopy-drawers.

valerie wrote: Anyway, I thought you were the one who was going to stay away from this thread?Clancy turned up! And AbbeyPants! God, they must have a thread about this thread somewhere, doncha expect?

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:33 am

I think Val should be bathed in perfumed bath water then sprinkled with roses and harpists should flow amidst her presence song in the air while she lounges in cool island breezes sipping coctails and uttering Val-isms to minions whose only purpose is to please and provide.

pantsonfire321@aol.com · Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:32 am

spot;705557 wrote: Name one, droopy-drawers.

Clancy turned up! And AbbeyPants! God, they must have a thread about this thread somewhere, doncha expect?

SnottyAnastrophe, it's always a pleasure

Post by **Victor Meldrew** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:51 pm

spot;704607 wrote: I've moved it here and taken it out of my sig, so that we can discuss it. I hope that sounds reasonable.

I note that it's hot-linked from a US Government site, valerie.

Rehabilitate Hindu symbolism!

This may be hot-linked from a government web site, I find it interesting though that they chose to name the picture file Swastika.jpg

http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/februar ... astika.jpg

I understand totally where Valerie is coming from and the upset this causes her, I am also inclined to agree with her point of view.

Post by **spot** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:04 pm

Victor Meldrew;705731 wrote: This may be hot-linked from a government web site, I find it interesting though that they chose to name the picture file Swastika.jpgI'm gobsmacked. It *IS* a swastika! That's the name of the Hindu symbol and has been for thousands of years, with a bit of give and take on the part of the hearer!

Post by **spot** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:58 pm

Dear Members,

In his 6th October post, Clancy attacks my views in rather extravagant terms. "more balding that anything else really, but I'm sure you catch my drift", he writes, and "beguiled into thinking all that rhetoric will actually amount to something thrilling" has little to do with Hindu symbolism

For the record:

If and when I roll up I use standard blue Rizlas.It is surely clear to everyone reading this that I'm not a user of Cannabis resin.My thesaurus is, reasonably enough, online and not a paper copy.I don't currently smoke and I'd have trouble remembering when I last tasted lager.I have no idea where or even what Aldi is.I am often invited to cook by those who have prior experience of my culinary skills, few of which employ tins at all.I don't believe I've ever bought a copy of the Guardian in my life, andthe only sherry I'm likely to be found drinking would be in a restaurant or while entertaining, chilled and labelled "dry". poured into a schooner through which five drops of Angustura Bitters have been swished (a taste for which I acquired while at school, having read in the Forsyte Saga that Soames enjoyed it).I have been responding here to criticism from val and subsequent general comment and I hope that discussion will continue. In such a setting Clancy has two legitimate options: to demonstrate that either my facts or my interpretations are wrong. Clancy has made no attempt to do either. Instead, he makes mock of what he claims is my appearance and invents a personal history for me from his own imagination. This is precisely the kind of prejudice and bias - known even to the ancients as the fallacy of ad hominem argument - from which a forum discussion of this sort should be entirely free.

By trampling on the most elementary standards of forum etiquette and intellectual exchange, Clancy has set a miserable example for the entire membership. I call on him to do the proper thing, retract and apologize; not to me, for I am above noticing such inaccurate insults, but to you, the members, whose conversation he has disrupted.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:01 pm

My hat is not a swastika. Can my apparel be left out of this argument?

You can leave me out as well, since I don't give a rats ass about this entire debate. I just want a promise from spot that he won't put Rudy Giuliani back in his sig.

laneybug · Post by **laneybug** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:09 pm

Clancy;705493 wrote: For many it's "handed down" from our previous generations regarding the swastika emblem, but like I mentioned in a previous post knowing full well that the Hindu symbol, we've been talking (arguing about) is unfortunately only a sharp reminder of a Nazi symbol to many.

So hatred for one madman is an excuse for the lack of education and information? I don't buy that.

Yes, the Nazis, and Neo-Nazis today, use a similar symbol. But let's not give them any more power than they already have by allowing them to alter the meaning of every other swastika in the world, such as the Hindu one in question. To do so definitely requires opening one's mind a bit and not immediately recoiling at something we don't have a full understanding of.

By the way Clancy, it is not only the Hindus that use a swastika-type symbol. Many, many other cultures do as well, and the meaning is usually that of peace and goodwill. Hitler's use and interpretation of the swastika is the only negative one I've seen and actually goes against every other interpretation of it.

Post by **spot** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:14 pm

Oh, the bile, the bile..."Your search - clancy site:caged-rage.com - did not match any documents. "

Rant-Rave.com - Sex With a Very Large Woman: That so much put me in mind of an obscure but wonderful song by Clancy Hayes... [I did actually write that post, I recognize it]

Rant-Rave.com - Suggested reading: "Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Checkmate" by Tom Clancy,Nope. Nothing. You'll have to show me, my old mucker, I can't remember mentioning you at all.

As for "going into shock mode when it's delivered back", I'd just been accused by AbbeyPants of behaving like Paul, I thought I'd try writing a comic post in his style. I think I got the tone exact even if you don't.