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spot;845162 wrote: I gave up at "have to set my calendar back a couple of hundred years" after all I'd said about the choice of calendar being independent of the meridian's location. Some people can't grasp concepts admittedly, I can cope with that, but to find people who can't read simple sentences is dispiriting.


Gee, I give up too, maybe I should have said, set my calendar back 800 years -

nothing to do with the meridian's location.





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Clodhopper;847024 wrote: spot: Grant them this and they'll be immediately on to the next demand. No.


yes, petulant children :rolleyes:

It's a mistake to see any group of people as inferior or superior. That's what got us all into justifying this greed-driven Empire business in the first place, the platitude of "oh, they're savages, they need bringing to culture and education and Jesus and then eventually they can govern themselves". I didn't know it could still be done with a straight face.

freetobeme wrote: Gee, I give up too, maybe I should have said, set my calendar back 800 yearsI've gone back and looked and seriously, I don't see where there was a hint of sarcasm. "oh gee, if we adopted ng Mecca time would I also have to set my calendar back a couple of hundred years as well"? Who on earth asked anyone to adopt Mecca time? What has shifting the meridian to do with adopting Mecca time? I'm not insensitive to sarcasm, I think I do quite well at seeing it, I just can't see it here. I know about adopting British Summer Time, or Double Summer Time. I spend weeks on end living California Time and getting to bed at dawn. The meridian's still there in East London all the while. No (and I know you already know it, but it's your own damn question in black and white) changing the location of the meridian doesn't mean anyone anywhere on earth has to stop making use of the Julian Calendar, or the Gregorian Calendar, or the Jewish Calendar, or the one left over from Alexander's visit to Egypt, calendars aren't associated with meridians.

Galbally;843483 wrote: Sure, and lets make Arabic the worlds only language, Islam the worlds only religion, and turn everywhere into Saudi Arabia as thats a great example of a well run progressive country. If anyone objects, murder them horribly, thats fair. Gosh, I can't wait for the new wonderful Islamic world we are going to enjoy.


one of the most annoying things about living in an islamic country is the fact that internet cafes are just rubbish. i'd typed out a nice long reply to this and then my computer crashed - ungrateful really seeing as how i'm trying to defend this place.

right, my main points were... (although i assure you it was much more eloquent before...)

I live in an Islamic country. I don't live in saudi, but you really shoudn't use saudi as an accurate representation of your average country in this part of the world. don't even assume that most people would like their countries to be like saudi, because they wouldn't. Most people hate the idea of the saudi society and are a very very long way from wanting it to spread around the world.

I don't think anyone seriously thinks gmt is going to change any time soon, but if the call had come from pretty much any other quarter, surely this whole issue would have been seen as a bit of a joke? Your 'also in the news' kind of thing? But as soon as anyone drops the word 'muslim' (or more often, and massively frustratingly - 'islamist') into the pot, then there's a huge waving of sabres (or should that be crosses??)

As for arabic being the world's only language - are you joking?? They've recently had to introduce laws here to force shopkeepers to include the name of their shop in arabic as well as english - that's how much english encroaches here. Quite a few young people speak english together because they think it's cooler than arabic.

I don't mean that there aren't any people who would like Islam to be the world religion and Arabic to be the world language, and sharia law to be the world standard, but to think of this as any sort of indication of general feeling would be like assuming that all westerners are rampant pro-life campaigners, or people who go round killing gay people, or something similar.

freetobeme;844761 wrote:

It would be nice if these Muslims got just as upset or offended by 9/11 etc. as they do about datelines and cartoons.




Have you ever actually talked to a Muslim about 9/11? Or terrorism in general? That's not a dig, it's a genuine query.

Because I have. And of course people are upset and offended that these people are doing these things in the name of their religion. Of course they're upset and offended that Muslims are now all tarred with the same brush as terrorists and that people have been killed. People seem to have this concept of Muslims as some kind of medieval demons with blood dripping from their mouths who are incapable of coherent thought and emotion like 'we' are. Islam is a society and not just a religion - it's a way of life. If some people from one country carried out attacks like this and said it was 'in the name of their President' and for the welfare of their country' even though the country and the president wanted nothing to with with it, would you immediately label everyone from that country a terrorist? No. Not unless they were Muslim and came from the Middle East apparently.

Stop believing everything you read in the newspaper, see on the tv or hear in the pub. Most Muslims are appalled by acts of terrorism, and don't recognise the people who carry out these attacks as Muslim because what they do is so patently against their religion.

Try talking to some Muslims before you judge them.

wardah;850851 wrote: Have you ever actually talked to a Muslim about 9/11? Or terrorism in general? That's not a dig, it's a genuine query.

Because I have. And of course people are upset and offended that these people are doing these things in the name of their religion. Of course they're upset and offended that Muslims are now all tarred with the same brush as terrorists and that people have been killed. People seem to have this concept of Muslims as some kind of medieval demons with blood dripping from their mouths who are incapable of coherent thought and emotion like 'we' are. Islam is a society and not just a religion - it's a way of life. If some people from one country carried out attacks like this and said it was 'in the name of their President' and for the welfare of their country' even though the country and the president wanted nothing to with with it, would you immediately label everyone from that country a terrorist? No. Not unless they were Muslim and came from the Middle East apparently.

Stop believing everything you read in the newspaper, see on the tv or hear in the pub. Most Muslims are appalled by acts of terrorism, and don't recognise the people who carry out these attacks as Muslim because what they do is so patently against their religion.

Try talking to some Muslims before you judge them.


Glory Hallelujah - sanity at last!

wardah;850829 wrote: one of the most annoying things about living in an islamic country is the fact that internet cafes are just rubbish. i'd typed out a nice long reply to this and then my computer crashed - ungrateful really seeing as how i'm trying to defend this place.

right, my main points were... (although i assure you it was much more eloquent before...)

I live in an Islamic country. I don't live in saudi, but you really shoudn't use saudi as an accurate representation of your average country in this part of the world. don't even assume that most people would like their countries to be like saudi, because they wouldn't. Most people hate the idea of the saudi society and are a very very long way from wanting it to spread around the world.

I don't think anyone seriously thinks gmt is going to change any time soon, but if the call had come from pretty much any other quarter, surely this whole issue would have been seen as a bit of a joke? Your 'also in the news' kind of thing? But as soon as anyone drops the word 'muslim' (or more often, and massively frustratingly - 'islamist') into the pot, then there's a huge waving of sabres (or should that be crosses??)

As for arabic being the world's only language - are you joking?? They've recently had to introduce laws here to force shopkeepers to include the name of their shop in arabic as well as english - that's how much english encroaches here. Quite a few young people speak english together because they think it's cooler than arabic.

I don't mean that there aren't any people who would like Islam to be the world religion and Arabic to be the world language, and sharia law to be the world standard, but to think of this as any sort of indication of general feeling would be like assuming that all westerners are rampant pro-life campaigners, or people who go round killing gay people, or something similar.


I take your points of course, I know that Saudi is an extreme example, and most people in the middle east are not enraged suicide bombers. People in the West are trying desperately hard to not slide into this very conflictual situation that seems to be constantly encroching on us all on both sides, but its not easy we are confronted almost all the time with incredibly agressive and confrontation anti-Western rhetoric from the Islamic world, as well as attacks on our major cities. The moderate voices seem to be getting drowned out to us. Its obviously the case that most muslims are just ordinary people going along at their everyday business, as are we, but if our media are presenting it a certain way, I put it too you that your media and your opinion formers are also distorting the picture massively. We are not all muslim hating zionist crusadsers who want to take over the Islamic world, we don't all support the Iraq war or the occupation of the Palestian territories by Israel, also the USA is not the source of all evil in this world, nor Britain or Europe, just because we have a different way of life, doesn't mean we hate the various societies based on Islam, but it often seems to be that the Islamic world in general is deeply antithical toward the west and western people, some of it may be justifed, but a lot of it is just based on agitprop by these Islamicists and their fellow travellers.

Wardah? What is the average Muslims take on the Iraqi and Afghanistan situations?

freetobeme;844423 wrote: A better understanding of honour than we do - really - unless of course you think it's honourable to kill your daughter because she wouldn't wear a hijab is a good understanding of honour, or killing your daughters because they had boyfriends is honourable !


Again, yes these things do happen, but most people don't support it. I read an interesting article about it in the Syrian newspaper a few months ago. I'm not sure I'd be able to find it again but I'll try and then I'll scan it in and post it just as proof that the vast majority of people in the Middle East don't agree with it.

Can you imagine what our own society looks like when viewed purely through the eyes of the media?? Just try and picture what an alien would think of us if they based their thinking solely on what they saw on the tv and read in the newspapers - just have a look at the average headlines that come out of the 'western world' - murder, rape, drugs, organised crime, paedophilia. You don't get headlines about people being nice to each other but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen! Although, in my - somewhat limited I'll admit, though I'm guessing much wider than most posters here - experience, I must say that it happens a lot more often in the Middle East - in the countries I've visited - Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt. People are far more likely to offer to help you out, without expecting any kind of reward. And I also feel hugely much safer wandering the streets, day or night, by myself here than I do in Europe - amazingly so. And that's not just because people are worried they'll get their hands chopped off or be thrown into prison or anything quite so sensationalist - it's because the society is far more family and community oriented and there's a much greater sense of looking out for eachother, yes, as well as people being more religiously inclined perhaps. Young children play in the streets without their parents hovering over them incase of kidnap, the idea of the elderly being shipped off to homes or living by themselves is virtually unheard of, and you can drop your phone and someone is more likely to run after you and hand it back than to steal it.

I'm not trying to paint the Middle East as some kind of Arcadia, it's not, and likewise I don't want to demonise the west - I live in the UK and I love it. But there are bad things and good things about both societies - so... those in glass houses etc etc...

Galbally;850922 wrote: People in the West are trying desperately hard to not slide into this very conflictual situation that seems to be constantly encroching on us all on both sides,


I hope you'll forgive me if I disagree here... Because I haven't seen many people in this thread clawing at the edges of the slippery slope, most seem to have thrown themselves in head first to bash the 'Islamists' (a note to the world in general - the word is Muslim! Not Islamist!). I haven't seen much 'holding back'...

YZGI;850929 wrote: Wardah? What is the average Muslims take on the Iraqi and Afghanistan situations?


Well, I can only give you opinions from the people I've talked to - mainly taxi drivers, I speak to as many as I can, they're a wealth of 'colloquial expressions'! And I've only chatted about Iraq I'm afraid, not Afghanistan.

But, from the discussions I've had, most people are against the war, of course, in fact I've only met one family who were for it, more on that later... However, what I found surprising was that in fact most people will say that politics and policies are due to the government of a country and don't always reflect the views or wishes of the inhabitants. As one taxi driver put it 'All politicians are cheats, and don't represent the people.'

So, while they're against the war, they're more than ready to accept that a large number of people in the UK and USA didn't want it either. Also, they are against the war not because they supported Saddam Hussein, but because they are suspicious of the motives of the invaders.

As to the supporters, interestingly enough they were Iraqis. I lived with an Iraqi family for 3 or 4 months, they'd fled from Baghdad because of death threats, and after one of the two sons had been killed in a car bomb. They were some of the kindest and friendliest people I've ever met. They used to help me with my homework, invite me for family walks and generally sit around and chat. When I asked if they'd have rather the war had never happened, I was pretty gobsmacked when they said no. They were massively opposed to Saddam Hussein and felt that anything that removed him from power was for the best. However, they also felt that the war had been badly carried out and there hadn't been any where near enough planning as to how to act after removing Saddam, and as a result the country is the way it is now.

wardah: Hi there. Glad to see you. We desperately need some folks on this site who'll give us what the average Moh on the street is thinking, so I hope you don't end up swamped with demands for information!:wah:

They were massively opposed to Saddam Hussein and felt that anything that removed him from power was for the best. However, they also felt that the war had been badly carried out and there hadn't been any where near enough planning as to how to act after removing Saddam, and as a result the country is the way it is now.


Interesting. That is very much my take on the sitution in Iraq. However, they are only one family, and refugee at that, so I don't suppose they can be regarded as typical.

wardah;850977 wrote: I hope you'll forgive me if I disagree here... Because I haven't seen many people in this thread clawing at the edges of the slippery slope, most seem to have thrown themselves in head first to bash the 'Islamists' (a note to the world in general - the word is Muslim! Not Islamist!). I haven't seen much 'holding back'...


I respect your right to disagree, alas if there was more respect around the world for different ways and opinions it would be a better place for all of us.

wardah;850851 wrote: Have you ever actually talked to a Muslim about 9/11? Or terrorism in general? That's not a dig, it's a genuine query.

Try talking to some Muslims before you judge them.
A few, but not recently, we moved to a small town, so none there. Hubby and I used to be cub leaders when our kids where younger and we were a bit upset when the Muslim parents opted out of our group to form their own Muslim only cub pack. hmmm

Actually I have never thought all muslims are the same, or are all radicals, which is why many people including myself refer to some as Islamists. Islamist being the radical variety.





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